This has been brought up before, I know... but these are my personal thoughts and views and its not meant to be a rant or prejudice/discriminatory against anyone. But I feel I need to bring a healthy discussion on this.
As Tastetosis says all the time "nerds". Thats right, nerd is a term that the SC2 community has taken upon themselves, not as a derogtory name, but almost as a proud badge that means intelligent, focused, determined, and not ashamed of what they are passionate about. Almost like the "nerds" have earned respect in the world. As Day9 says, nerd was a term used in the past to make fun of people who are socially inept and to belittle people, but times have changed and those nerds have grown up and are now powerful, rich, and influential people in society and the word "nerd" means something else.
However, the SC2 community is a bit ahead of the rest of the world in this aspect. Nerds are no longer hated, but misunderstood. THE SAME STEREOTYPES STILL EXIST, they are just not at the forefront of people's minds. Now I grew up a jock, I play hockey and own a business teaching and running hockey camps all over the US. This forces me to interact with people who the SC2 community might refer to as "stereotypical jocks". While tolerant of us, they still have a deep down view that "nerds" are people with undeveloped social skills, bad with women (mostly virgins), physically weak and pale skinned, strange or awkward in conversation... need I go on? This is a REAL VIEW people have and we unjustly get categorized like this... or do we force ourselves into these categories.
Barcraft is a great thing, I love it. My friend sets it up for MLG viewings at a local bar/restaurant, actually in the same rink where I play my hockey games. This is relevent because MLG is trying to make Esports big and reaching out to new markets, even talks with ESPN. One day, SC2 could be on at Bars all over the US inside hockey rinks and football stadiums. However, this leads to a problem with SC2 casters. Sports casters are professionals in their field, great voices, knowledgable about the sports, and most have sports broadcasting degrees or have played the sports professionally (some Hall of Fame-rs). Why is it different for SC2?
WHY IS SC2 CASTING A CLIQUE? People say it all the time, its hard to make it as a SC2 caster. I have 2 close friends that both tried to make it as casters and both were unsuccessful. They started casting in late beta, both great knowledge, entertaining, well spoken, and professional voices (althought I might be biased). People have said that SC2 casting, people almost WORK to keep you out of it, or only an elite few can make it in. However, almost every stream I go into, people are hating on SC2 casters. I can't even join the GSL chat channels without hearing people complain about the casting. IT'S SO COMMON, ITS AN AUTO-BAN in most chat channels. Think about that?! But are they justified?
To quote Aris, a top fighting game player who is renown as the best Tekken caster and attended several US and overseas tournaments placing in every MLG for tekken he attended, he said "It seems when people get that keyboard and mouse in their hands their IQ just DROPS." Its true, but thats the internet. However the comments about the casters are mostly related lack of game knowledge or their overpowering accents. Several english speaking SC2 casters have very strong accents, sometimes hard to understand them, and it is NOT made up for by a professional SC2 gaming history or incredible game knowledge... I don't know how they got the job aside from maybe convenience or maybe because they cast a different tournament and now they are inside the clique. Clique is a bad word if you didn't notice. A wise person said "You can always learn from negative feedback, no matter how unjustified it is or how rediculous their claims are... there is always some truth in it that you can use to improve upon." I think we need to start listening to these complaints and take action. Allow new people to prove themselves, thus giving us a larger pool of commentators to pull from, thus giving us the BEST commentators we can find.
To finalize the point lets do a comparison of Day9 and KellyMilkies. Why is Day9 SOOOOO well respected? He played BW and was, at a time, the top player in the US. He is VERY knowledgable about SC2 in almost EVERY aspect. He is arguably the hardest working person in all of SC2 in terms of building his knowledge, improving his casting, taking it upon himself to become the frontman for making esports big. I have to respect that, and its clear its not to make a name for himself or to make money, I'm sure he'd do it for free... oh wait he does. So I ask you, how did Day9 become a caster? By working hard, being professional, being knowledgable and doing tons of PR.
Now, it may not seem fair to her, but lets look at KellyMilkies. The complaints I've heard about her are such as her accent and problems enunciating the english language, her lack of game knowledge, and voice tonality or being somewhat monotone. All 3 of those are imperitive to being a caster, so how DID she become a caster? I don't know, it must have something to do with her being a female. I think thats why so many people were offended by her. When I see her casting a major event, all I think of are the negative stereotypes of "nerds" and how "OMG A GURL, YOU'VE GOT THE JOB!!!" must have ran through someone's mind. Nerds are bad with women right? I know this is very harsh, but I'm not the only person thinking it. I appologize to Kelly for singling her out, anybody would have taken the job, she wasn't the one doing the hiring.
So if Esports is ever going to be popular, people are going to have to take it seriously. Thus we need to put our best foot forward. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO BE CLIQUEY. Has anyone thought of taking a professional sports broadcaster and teaching them SC2? Most of the people casting sports don't actually play the game, they learn the players names and study the sport. Imagine having a well spoken individual with a great, powerful speaking voice (similar to radio sports casting), doing the play by play of SC2 and having an intelligent, high level player like Day9 or Artosis, doing the color commentary. With our current infrastructure, that will never happen.
SC2 casters should not be simply members of an elite clique that is hard to break into, they should not get the job simply because they are convenient (as in casted before) or female. They need to be the best individuals at SPEAKING for play by play and have the BEST KNOWLEDGE for color commentary. This is the formula ESPN, Versus, Fox Sports and so many others use.
Imagine having a SC2 game with a play by play as good as this:
Then also having Artosis casting and talking about the latest build orders, the matchup and meta game, and the strategies the players might be attempting.
Thanks for reading this, let me know your thoughts everyone. Do you agree or not?
For the first two para's the thought running through my mind was: "I hope he actually means clique and not cliche"... then you stated yourself clearly and I understood your point. I do agree, but such is life. Look at your professional TV examples... theres a few out there that just plain suck. Period. How did they get into that clique?
I agree. There are a lot of people casting who don't really deserve to be simply because they got respected by the community in some way. I don't think it's really unique to casting though it's true in all aspects of life. The people you know are far more important than your skill/work ethic/anything else.
The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
You will reach a natural barrier of how many casters people will actually wish to hear/see.
I don't see much room for more casters. Maybe if you have something exceptional you can try and compete - but Tastosis I think we can all agree deserves a spot for as long as they'll want to cast, right? And Day9 ofc... And those 3 guys know JP, who knows [insert name] who knows [insert name] etc etc...
I think Khaldor is one of the few I never had heard of (before Copenhagen Games) who just took it upon himself to cast like a madman - get into good tournaments and eventually actually go to Korea.
It's tough out there if you don't know the right people. I don't think it's impossible though. But you would have to work unreasonably hard. It's an "established marked" where you'd have a hard time breaking in. You should do your own thing.
I'm not sure I'd agree in saying there is a clique within the casting profession I think it's more to do with fans grouping casters by popularity and long term relationships between casters. Saying there's a clique suggests there's resistance to new casters from the existing established casters themselves. I haven't heard of any shunning going on between casters, maybe just the odd personal dislike between a couple but not actively restricting anyone new coming in and giving it a go.
The barriers come from factors like there's only so many tournaments to go around between casters and a limited audience who also enjoy watching the players stream themselves. Maybe newer casters could contact players themselves and ask to cast their custom game sessions? Could be a new way to get your name out there.
It is clichéd but I think it really is a case of just doing it as much as possible, contacting smaller tournaments (or GOM who seem to let anyone have a go ) and just keeping at it and hoping for a break and a chance in front of a large audience.
I think it's interesting you talk about Barcrafts though, it seems as though the thing that could now be holding SC2 events back in front of new spectators or people new to the game is not the game itself but the casters being broadcast into the bars. I think that's great and shows how far SC2 has come already. We're not embarrassed or concerned to be seen watching a computer game in public but the actual commentators talking about it who often reinforce the stereotype we're overcoming by having Barcrafts in the first place! Maybe you didn't mean that and I read too much into it but I think it's great anyway
The roles of professional sports casters and starcraft 2 casters aren't interchangeable. Starcraft 2 casters have to fill a LOT of downtime and that is where personality and humor become crucial. A lot of the success of the current casting vanguard comes not just from their play-by-play or analytical skills, but from their ability to keep viewers engaged and entertained between games.
Being a caster involves a lot of work, more than most people realize. There's still the assumption amongst many that casters don't have to put in a lot of effort, which might be correct for a few but not as a general rule. If you want to be a successfull caster you have to put your name out there. The StarCraft 2 infrastructure that we have allows you to do it on a daily basis as there are tons of tournaments one can cast. But one has to make an effort to do so.
In the end it is the community that decides whether they like you or not. There are a lot of casters that might have all the tools you need in order to be good, but they lack "personality" and therefore are perceived as mediocre. I'm not saying this is fair but it is how the scene works in my opinion. But if you work hard and don't hesitate to put in time and effort you will get better over time and people will start to take note of you.
Although I have been casting WarCraft III for ages I did not start casting in english until roughly a year ago (Assembly Winter). Nobody in the international community (well, at least most) had never heard of my name before in regards to StarCraft 2 Casting. Now I have the great pleasure to be one of the casters for GomTV. So it is possible to establish yourself within the casting community. At least thats my opinion.
The barrier of entry for regular sportscasting is also pretty selective, it happens. Not everyone can be famous.
I work more hours/day on E-Sports stuff than I do my day job, and most people have no idea who I am. That's just the way stuff is.
Look at Orb from the Korean Weekly? He casts more than most (I would say all, but Khaldor is a bald, german StarCraft superman) on a regular basis, and a large portion of the community had no idea who he was until he got to work with NASL.
EDIT: Haha, ninja'd by the german superhero himself.
We are reclaiming the words Nerd and Geek in he same way liberated black people have reclaimed the word Nigger. I know our example is less extreme of course but it is a similar concept.
STOP capsloking RANDOM words and SENTENCES in your post, it looks horrible. Usesome of these please, if you want to underline something.
As for the content, it's most definitely not an elite clique, there are at least a hundred casters, some of them came out of nowhere with no background, probably most of them dont know more then half of the rest
Take an example, Mr.Bitter, he just made a show about himself learning from pro coaches, and a few months later he's one of ESL's main caster. There's no tribute to be paid if u wanna become a caster, u just start out, if u're good u'll have viwers, if you have viwers tourneys or small cups at least gonna pick you up.
On February 02 2012 18:26 vtbarrera wrote: The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
To be fair, pretty much anyone can be on "Bitterdam's" level because they are... not very good. Might be they'd do a better work with more work put in but overall they are way below the other combos you mentioned.
They constantly bicker with each other, they find one kinda-funny-joke and run with that for the rest of the tournament (MMA's jacket during IEM Kiev for example) which makes the joke not very funny. Their analysis isn't very top level either so I, personally, don't see their appeal at all.
They get to cast a lot, however, so I guess I am a clear minority in this or it's like the OP says; more convenient to hire somewhat known and popular casters than making a gamble on casters that might be a lot better.
On February 02 2012 18:26 vtbarrera wrote: The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
To be fair, pretty much anyone can be on "Bitterdam's" level because they are... not very good. Might be they'd do a better work with more work put in but overall they are way below the other combos you mentioned.
They constantly bicker with each other, they find one kinda-funny-joke and run with that for the rest of the tournament (MMA's jacket during IEM Kiev for example) which makes the joke not very funny. Their analysis isn't very top level either so I, personally, don't see their appeal at all.
They get to cast a lot, however, so I guess I am a clear minority in this or it's like the OP says; more convenient to hire somewhat known and popular casters than making a gamble on casters that might be a lot better.
Bitter+Rotterdam is an amazing combo for several reasons. One they are 2 community people, the veteran W3 caster and the guy who made it from doing his own show from scratch, a European and an American. Two, they look very good. I know, who cares, it's esports not beauty contest, well believe me lot of people care. Three, they both actually are GM level players, unlike pretty much any combo you can name. Their game knowledge is satisfying so is their analysis. And idk how "constantly bicker" with each other is a bad quality, it makes their co-cast seem natural to me.
About their humor, you can dislike it, who am i to disagree with that, but i like it, and many others do, so np there either.
On February 02 2012 18:26 vtbarrera wrote: The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
To be fair, pretty much anyone can be on "Bitterdam's" level because they are... not very good. Might be they'd do a better work with more work put in but overall they are way below the other combos you mentioned.
They constantly bicker with each other, they find one kinda-funny-joke and run with that for the rest of the tournament (MMA's jacket during IEM Kiev for example) which makes the joke not very funny. Their analysis isn't very top level either so I, personally, don't see their appeal at all.
They get to cast a lot, however, so I guess I am a clear minority in this or it's like the OP says; more convenient to hire somewhat known and popular casters than making a gamble on casters that might be a lot better.
Lol.. I personally think Bitterdam is about the nicest thing that can happen to any event, on the other side Day9 and most of all DJWheat makes me switch the stream asap. That does not make them bad casters.... Tastes are diffrent.
SC2 casting isn't a clique, it's just something with limited opportunities, so the barriers to entry are very high. It shares that with being an actor, a TV personality, a concert musician, etc. etc.
On February 02 2012 18:26 vtbarrera wrote: The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
To be fair, pretty much anyone can be on "Bitterdam's" level because they are... not very good. Might be they'd do a better work with more work put in but overall they are way below the other combos you mentioned.
They constantly bicker with each other, they find one kinda-funny-joke and run with that for the rest of the tournament (MMA's jacket during IEM Kiev for example) which makes the joke not very funny. Their analysis isn't very top level either so I, personally, don't see their appeal at all.
They get to cast a lot, however, so I guess I am a clear minority in this or it's like the OP says; more convenient to hire somewhat known and popular casters than making a gamble on casters that might be a lot better.
Bitter+Rotterdam is an amazing combo for several reasons. One they are 2 community people, the veteran W3 caster and the guy who made it from doing his own show from scratch, a European and an American. Two, they look very good. I know, who cares, it's esports not beauty contest, well believe me lot of people care. Three, they both actually are GM level players, unlike pretty much any combo you can name. Their game knowledge is satisfying so is their analysis. And idk how "constantly bicker" with each other is a bad quality, it makes their co-cast seem natural to me.
About their humor, you can dislike it, who am i to disagree with that, but i like it, and many others do, so np there either.
Sure, as I said, I am a clear minority in this and I disagree with most everything you said.
OP, your choice of KellyMilkies as a token bad caster, along with supporting comments of "I don't know, it must have something to do with her being a female", are very poorly thought out: she only had the job for one season, this is not a good angle to take, and nor is it (gender bias towards females in top casting jobs) an issue which comes up with any regularity. On the contrary, I would love to see more variety in the mix.
You also state a problem with casters having thick accents which is apparently a big no-no: this is a very american-centric viewpoint, and given that many Starcraft events attract a global audience I don't think its reasonable for all tournaments to pander to it. As it is, the enthusiasm and knowledge by casters like Khaldor and TLO (when he casts) more than make up for the fact that English was not their first language.
On February 02 2012 18:35 Geo.Rion wrote: STOP capslooking RANDOM words and SENTENCES in your post, it looks horrible. Usesome of these please, if you want to underline something.
As for the content, it's most definitely not an elite clique, there are at least a hundred casters, some of them came out of nowhere with no background, probably most of them dont know more then half of the rest
Take an example, Mr.Bitter, he just made a show about himself learning from pro coaches, and a few months later he's one of ESL's main caster. There's no tribute to be paid if u wanna become a caster, u just start out, if u're good u'll have viwers, if you have viwers tourneys or small cups at least gonna pick you up.
This basically ends your thread. To continue on the though of casters being a "clique" though is even the larger scaled casters, if you will, of now started long ago in BW and worked their ass off.
Tastelss and Artosis moved to South Korea while BW wasn't huge over here. Thats a pretty big risk in itself I believe. Day9 started a web show out of thin air and stuck with it while learned to take constructive critism from people. Watch his first ones compared to now.
It's not like they didn't work hard. Even Husky posted like 2/3 vids minimum a day when he first started and just stuck with it. If you really want to become a SC2 caster, You actually have to want it. Learn the game, do research on the latest tournies/winners, apply to do some lower league tournaments, make a youtube, make a sponser thread on TL(advertise yourself). Try to meet people at local events, save up some money and go to a larger event and meet more people. Stuff like this all help if someone is serious about it.
So to say "oh you just need to know the right people and youre auto in" isn't really the case. The people casting the larger events actually worked their way there one way or another. Knowing people helps but only if you already have a name for yourself...which doesnt happen over night.
Comparing SC2 casting to sports casting isn't really productive when SC2 is not even a fraction as large as regular sports.
There's less viewers, less money, and less knowledgable people in the scene. It's not weird that casting in SC2 will stay "worse" than regular sports for quite a while as only the top few casters earn enough money to sustain themselves. Nobody even knows if SC2 is going to keep fan interest more than a year or two while football, soccer, hockey, and basketball have been going strong for years or even decades.
People seem to get ahead of themselves when it comes to the viability of SC2 as a serious sustainable sport calling for ESPN level production, much better casters etc. Look at LoL and how they have numbers trippling SC2, there's still alot of work to do to reach out to nerds before trying to sell the game to "jocks".
In all honesty, I think the popular casters are the few actual good ones. It doesn't matter how intellectual you might be, for example, if you aren't interesting. Similarly, you PERSONALLY might not find Day9 appealing, but generalizing that he's just popular because of broodwar and blatantly ignoring his large almost cult-like following of people who adore him and think he's hysterical, inspiring, and interesting...it's just ignorant and stupid.
My first impression is that all OPs should start with a 100 word max abstract outlining the key thesis and areas for discussion.
I've read the post twice and am still unsure where the argument is – what’s the point of what you’re saying, how have you come to your conclusions?
I don't know how they got the job aside from maybe convenience or maybe because they cast a different tournament and now they are inside the clique
Since it could be interpreted that you're just QQing because your caster buddies never made it. Also, what does this have to do with the reappropriation of the word 'Nerd' that you open with?
I think you're just confusing hard work, chemistry and experience with an impenetrable cliquey barrier - though your observation with regards to Kelly Milkies and Day 9 probably points to another underlying problem in the scene...
I’ve heard it said before that drafting in commentators for traditional sports is something e-sports overall could benefit from, I think it’s a nice idea – but why?
Due to the impersonal, opinionated nature of your post and the lack of a clearly focused argument I must say that this is more blog material.
I specifically object to your criticism of people with 'hard to understand accents' like Khaldor and RotterdaM. A large portion of the viewership is NOT AMERICAN (see what I did there?), and I for one can understand them perfectly. It's not their problem that you can only understand 'standard' american english. And come on, their english is probably as good as most american's. Also, as has been stated by others before, esports is still a lot smaller than traditional sports so the pool of professional casters will be a lot smaller simply due to financial constraints. It's just a completely different way of operating. I'm sorry your friends didn't make it as casters, but that may just be because they're not that good at either promoting themselves or as casters in general?
I've never signed on to this whole "all the popular personalities.are part of the same clique" nonsense. Quite frankly, we all know each other, and we all like each other, but we're also all in competition with one another. To say we belong to the same clique is almost counter-intuitive.
Some people go back to Brood War. Day[9], Tastosis and iNcontroL being the most popular examples.
Some come from other backgrounds. RotterdaM was WC3. Apollo was Command and Conquer.
And other guys don't have much a competitive background at all. HD and Husky spring to mind immediately.
What everyone has is a background in working their asses off. Is it hard to get a job as a caster? Yes, of course it is. It's a highly coveted job. Hundreds of people want it, and there are literally only a handful of openings around the world. But don't think for a second its impossible. If you put in the work - not uploading a few games a week, like real work - going to events, networking yourself, reaching out to pros and industry people alike, people will notice you.
Bitter is the perfect example to show that it's definitely not a clique that's preventing people from becoming a successful caster. The truth is that most people just lack the personality and ambition to do this job properly for an extended period of time. We all know stuff about the game and we all can crack some jokes. That just comes with being a fan of the game and having medium-level socializing skills. But can you push out consistent quality? Can you produce hundreds of hours of entertainment with either great analysis if you're the analyst guy or exceptional play-by-play? Do you speak coherently with an engaging voice without going uh, uh, uh every two sentences? This all requires really hard work and a fitting personality, and very very few people are able to do it.
Non-korean casters are generally bad, to be honest. They worry more about making awful jokes than actually being good commentators. Listen to any professional sport cast and there's absolutely no bullshit in there whatsoever. We really need to raise the bar on the acceptable level of a professional starcraft 2 caster because at the moment they're just not good enough.
Huh. So, while I see a big QQ in the OP, I also (because I am trying to salvage those 5 minutes of reading time) have to say that the OP does have a point in some regards. (Not the ones he thinks.) Should casters be professional in demeanor within their casts? Certainly. Should casters speak clearly enough to be understood? Absofraggin'lutely. Does any of this mean it's a clique? No. Is an accent bad? Only when most people can't understand it. Would we all be happy if all casters did a stellar job following all the action in a match? Sure would! Where do we get casters with four observer accounts, 6 hands, and the ability to go instantly to picture in picture to follow the drop at the main, the middle map battle, and the building third, or the clutch warp-in?
Most casters are doing so as one of two people, with an engineer who is not focused on the game but on the stream. In the "prosports" world, those casters are backed up by a legion of fact-checking, stat-working, production directing people. SC2 casters miss things sometimes... and might miss them because they're busy watching something else, or are being entertaining. I wouldn't say SC2 casting is quite up to the same level as sports which have been working at it for 60 years. But they are doing pretty well, and the audience generally is appreciative. (Although some casting teams are hilarious to watch and at the same time not great at actual factual casting in an eSports fashion. MC, MKP, and Reis come to mind.)
I am surprised no-one has mentioned Klazart that guy was great at play-by-play commentary and the closest I have seen in Starcraft to someone like John Ahlers
On February 02 2012 19:47 MrBitter wrote: What everyone has is a background in working their asses off. Is it hard to get a job as a caster? Yes, of course it is. It's a highly coveted job. Hundreds of people want it, and there are literally only a handful of openings around the world. But don't think for a second its impossible. If you put in the work - not uploading a few games a week, like real work - going to events, networking yourself, reaching out to pros and industry people alike, people will notice you.
This is pretty much all there is to say about it.
And KellyMilkies vs Day[9] really is a poor example. She has casted one season of GSL, and that was one year ago. Even if there was a "clique", she'd be hardly part of it.
I actually think like Khaldor and MrBitter that you have an excellent chance of making yourself a name at the moment.
Start casting weekly cups, send application to tournaments like NASL (they have been rotating tons of casters). If people like your casting, you can be successful. (of course it takes some time)
I watch a lot of smaller streams as well and I can't think of any caster who is really amazing, but wasn't approached by any big organization.
KellyMilkies is actually a big example against your theory. She is not around anymore (at least outside of SEA).
things happen way way way faster in real sports so play by plays come much easier. you can't do this in starcraft because it's nowhere near as fast paced.
I can understand the OP's frustration. But I believe its important to point out that raw casting skill is not the only factor in casting success. It's also about dedication, charisma, and connections. Chemistry is key, and so is market positioning. It's not unusual for early investors to dominate markets even with inferior products. That's especially true with internet broadcasting, which is just about as free market as you can get.
Someone like Moletrap doesn't *need* to be the best skilled caster in the world. He's got mad dedication, going all the way back deep into BW when nobody was watching esports. He has the balls to move to a completely foreign nation and stick it out in somewhat crappy living conditions for what was then a temporary job.
Kellymilkies might not have the greatest voice in the world or the strongest SC2 background. But she's nurtured hundreds of contacts over dozens of games in order to help establish herself as a prominent female caster. It isn't just SC2 fans that watch her SC2 casts, it's also Kellymilkies fans from tons of other games.
Mr.Bitter might be relatively new to scene, but he's got tons of raw charisma to help propel him to the top.
So yeah. There's much more to it than just "raw casting skill".
I actually think that the answer is way easier than we think. I think that the big companies, MLG / GSL / other stuff, simply do now have the tools needed to scout for good casters. I mean, let's face it, the internet is a labyrinth. It's really hard to find good, talented casters. At least you need to put some effort into it. I think that's the explanation. I don't know though, and kudos to MLG for having such a bad-ass caster-line-up!
I agree on some points, I believe that some Casters DESERVE 100% there positions. (day[9], Artosis, tasteless, etc) And again there is some that do not. Whether they got in based on looks or knowing someone is irrelevant. The term "nerd" is outdated, your jocks you mentioned are a very small percentage of the community as a whole, so using them as a target group isn't very convincing. Most people I know that play starcraft look just like everyone else, they have 9-5's, they go out to the bar and shoot pool, they keep up with current events etc. As for some Casters being not the greatest, that's personal opinion, it doesn't matter how good you are at something, there's always going to be people who don't like you. Period. I can personally think of a few Casters with accents that I'd much rather watch than your typical American Caster (Khaldor, TB and the likes) you're also neglecting one thing, Casters with accents, like totalbiscuit bridge a gap between Euro viewers and American viewers so they have a greater potential to get MORE views.
Edit: And on a side note, I'd also like to say that I MUCH prefer casters from the community over a big time super professional NFL caster any day, these casters with grassroots are easier to relate to.
Wolf, dApollo, Day9, Artosis and pro gamers are by far the best casters because of their game knowledge and analytical skills. Especially Wolf and Artosis have a good knowledge of players as well. Tasteless is funny and a good "casual studio guy", and the IPL guys are just professional. Husky and Total Biscuit deliver good play-by-play commentary with personality (which of course might not appeal to everybody).
The rest of the casters in the scene haven't really got any qualities. I'm not surprised so many casters get bashed. What does Kelly offer? Moletrap? Doa? I feel like GOMtv should have Wolf/Tastosis choose english casters instead of GOMtv executives. Synergy and a good grasp of the english language (spoken) are a lot more important factors than diversity or whatever.
On February 02 2012 18:59 equalheights wrote: You also state a problem with casters having thick accents which is apparently a big no-no: this is a very american-centric viewpoint, and given that many Starcraft events attract a global audience I don't think its reasonable for all tournaments to pander to it. As it is, the enthusiasm and knowledge by casters like Khaldor and TLO (when he casts) more than make up for the fact that English was not their first language.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Having a thick accent makes you difficult to understand for a large segment of your audience (generally everyone who natively speaks that particular language). Having people with little to no accent is extremely beneficial, because then you aren't alienating a large portion of your audience, which is why the national level broadcast programs (news, sports, etc) generally don't have people with accents.
I'm right there with you on the global audience, and I would argue the solution is to have multiple teams of casters for different languages; much like they do with the Olympics. The different audiences are watching casts in their own language - with the main team being the team speaking the host country language. Will there more of a logistical burden with this, and a lot of details that still need to be hashed out (differences between internet streaming and broadcast feeds, etc)? Absolutely, but I think having a broader appeal will ultimately open it up to more fans and that will outweigh the costs.
Actually its not just in sc2 casting that girls get a job because they are girls, it also happens quite often that guys get a job because they are guys. I dont really see that as a problem.
There is no clique, that would imply some kind of union of casters deliberately working to secure their gigs together at the expense of others, which does not happen.
I kinda feel bad for the OP. Its like he just experienced the real world for the first time and it donkey punched him. People are greedy and will try to prevent others from getting their slice of the pie. For every 1 casting position with a paycheck there are are 500 sc2 casters. People are also stupid and lazy and resistant to change. If fans get used to a caster they get comfortable with him and he's set.
Look at real sports. For every Al Michaels there are 10,000 high school sports reporters, WNBA announces or Sandwich artists that think they deserve his job. A lot probably work harder and are better than him (bad example, Al is the GOAT) but most of them will never get a shot. It's all about connections, getting out there and if you ever do get a shot, not botching it.
On February 02 2012 20:18 nekoconeco wrote: I am surprised no-one has mentioned Klazart that guy was great at play-by-play commentary and the closest I have seen in Starcraft to someone like John Ahlers
About a year ago, when I decided I wanted to try and be a caster, I joined a clan so that I would always be able to cast Clan Wars or the weekly tournaments they had. After a while, I ended up casting bigger and better events. The clan that I joined even grew to be the largest clan in the west and eventually everyone knew who I was.
Before I knew it I had an entire clan behind me, giving me casting opportunities like showmatches w/ white-ra and Dimaga. Let alone the chance to cast games between some of our top grandmasters.
I have had to make a lot of sacrifices and put in a strong effort. SC2 has become more than a hobby for me and has really helped me enjoy my life. I get the chance to cast a $6000 offline tournament this weekend and its all thanks to the hard work I put in and the friends and fans I gained in a clan/team.
On February 02 2012 18:59 equalheights wrote: You also state a problem with casters having thick accents which is apparently a big no-no: this is a very american-centric viewpoint, and given that many Starcraft events attract a global audience I don't think its reasonable for all tournaments to pander to it. As it is, the enthusiasm and knowledge by casters like Khaldor and TLO (when he casts) more than make up for the fact that English was not their first language.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Having a thick accent makes you difficult to understand for a large segment of your audience (generally everyone who natively speaks that particular language). Having people with little to no accent is extremely beneficial, because then you aren't alienating a large portion of your audience, which is why the national level broadcast programs (news, sports, etc) generally don't have people with accents.
I'm right there with you on the global audience, and I would argue the solution is to have multiple teams of casters for different languages; much like they do with the Olympics. The different audiences are watching casts in their own language - with the main team being the team speaking the host country language. Will there more of a logistical burden with this, and a lot of details that still need to be hashed out (differences between internet streaming and broadcast feeds, etc)? Absolutely, but I think having a broader appeal will ultimately open it up to more fans and that will outweigh the costs.
True, I dislike thick accents, even those from my home country. Is there really no way to train off an accent?
Also, another thread that goes "I hate these popular casters!" was really not something the world needed. And good job being another guy that singles Kelly out just for being female -- you said you wanted eSports to be LESS of a clique, yet you hate her for trying to cast it?
The entire OP is just a bunch of contradictory rubbish.
On March 01 2012 00:47 Jinsho wrote: OP loses all credibility for quoting Aris the creepy fuck. Harass a woman live on stream for several days? No problem.
Also, another thread that goes "I hate these popular casters!" was really not something the world needed. And good job being another idiot that singles Kelly out -- you said you wanted eSports to be LESS of a clique, yet you hate her for trying casting it?
The entire OP is just a bunch of stupid contradictory rubbish.
You obviously didn't read the OP. He never said he hated any casters, or even disliked them. He said the feedback they get says the community dislikes them, so why would they be made into pop casters? That's why he is confused, he is wondering if there is some kind of clique going on. He doesn't hate Kelly, he questions why they put her in front of the most important esports audiences when she has very bad qualities for a caster. He is simply advocating for possible better quality casts, not saying we need to fire casters, or give everyone and their brother a chance to cast big tourneys. Way to demonize the crap out of him. Try to use your intuition next time to figure out what people are saying before you make assumptions about intent.
Let's bring here Tobi Wan Kenobi to explain you why some people don't respect KellyMilkies at all. I don't think she deserves to cast or be a part of e-sports at all after whet she did in mani occasions so yeah we deserve better quality interviews and catsing. People like that should never be allowed to cast IMO, expecially after showing multiple times to be unprofessional.
New casters that want to do casting have to dare to take the step out there and hope that someone will notice them so they can grow and cast bigger and bigger tournaments. I did cast for about 6 months. I started in the small, threw up my own stream, asked if any small tournaments needed casters. Then got picked up to cast for a norwegian clan. After some months having fun, getting feedback, trying to improve I had do start focusing more on my studies and quit, but I do believe everyone can be a caster if they just dare to throw themselves out there and ask tourny organisers if they need more casters.
Noone manages to get famous straight away, and in my opinion if you're doing this for fame, don't bother. If you really have a desire for the game and casting go for it. The worst thing that can happen is that you will get turned down when asking if you can cast for someone, oh well, go ask someone else. There is no clique. Altough it sounds awesome with a formal council of casters, lead by Day9, Tasteless and Artosis, that decides who gets to be their padawan and be the new casting star!
I dont like getting my mind attacked constantly with play by play commentary that is just stating the obvious. I mean, I'm not blind or dumb or anything, so why would I need a guy to constantly tell me what I am already seeing anyways? Its just annyoing imo and somewhat insulting to the viewers intellect.
I know that the majority seems to like this for whatever reason. I guess the idea that you get dumb from watching tv has to come from somewhere.
IMO more high-level players should do more analytical casting so that the viewer can follow the actual game, instead of just getting excited over and over again about some pixel rendered explosions that they have seen for the 10000th time now.
If you just want to party, theres got to be better options than to watch sc2 graphics while listening to someone yelling.
Not sure if it's been brought up, but let's say you grow up in Canada and you love hockey and would like to become a play by play guy. You might have never played Hockey, but you understand the game at a pretty good level if you watch a ton of games and you study the game as much as you can and get to know players etc...
In Sc2, the game wasn't at a level 10 years ago so a 12 year old could analyze the game like crazy for 10 years and now be done studying broadcasting/journalism/whatever and become a top caster.
You can't compare a game that got out of the Beta like a year and a half ago versus hockey and football that's been around for an hundred years
You rambled on around the 3rd paragraph and while you stated that you had no prejudice, you CLEARLY do. Casting is not a joke, ranting about how some casters get in and some do not does not justify the means of being a caster and the skills that are involved with it. While many lack knowledge, those who do are sociable and can fill time when needed as well as having other capabilities
On March 01 2012 01:09 Kammalleri wrote: Not sure if it's been brought up, but let's say you grow up in Canada and you love hockey and would like to become a play by play guy. You might have never played Hockey, but you understand the game at a pretty good level if you watch a ton of games and you study the game as much as you can and get to know players etc...
In Sc2, the game wasn't at a level 10 years ago so a 12 year old could analyze the game like crazy for 10 years and now be done studying broadcasting/journalism/whatever and become a top caster.
You can't compare a game that got out of the Beta like a year and a half ago versus hockey and football that's been around for an hundred years
That's a point I was going to hit on; education! How many SC2 casters have any history at all in broadcasting, vs how many professional sports casters?
How many players play hockey in North America? Or at least -spectate- hockey? From a young age?
Let's say good casters are like good players; the best ones are going to be a small sliver of the population. So if we only have 1.5 million SC2 players, how many people are trying to be casters? How many of those casters are GM casters?
Comparing it again to Hockey, the pool of people who are even -passable- at casting is going to be much much smaller in SC2. Taken with the fact that very SC2 casters have the history of playing, or the education to broadcast, it makes sense they are much, much worse. There will always be standouts, but
Replying more directly to the OP, what avenues are there for someone who casts to become successful? It's a very difficult and confusing process to build fans; how can you prove to people that you're good enough to listen to when you're not featured on any events and when you have no followers?
I'm interpreting the OP as a veiled stab at casters he thinks are unprofessional and only got the job because they're big in the community. This is no different than any other caster-bashing thread other than he doesn't name the casters he's bashing.
I hear people say, you need to work your ass off, and then work the nub that was your ass off too. And then pray people like you, while you keep working off your bones.
On February 02 2012 18:23 JJH777 wrote: I agree. There are a lot of people casting who don't really deserve to be simply because they got respected by the community in some way. I don't think it's really unique to casting though it's true in all aspects of life. The people you know are far more important than your skill/work ethic/anything else.
This is exactly it. This phenomenon described in the OP is not unique to starcraft at all, it happens in all professional circles due to it being a standard feature of human interaction. In all walks of life there are people who get to prominent positions through a combination of luck and knowing the right people who are arguably not as good at what they do as they should be. I wouldn't worry about it since we have a diverse set of casters to meet everyone's tastes and I for one am pretty happy with the current situation.
What's your point? Who are you targeting with this thread?
Things are one way and you say they shouldn't be. Okay, but they are. So...? Are you asking organizations like MLG and IPL to hire better casters? Are you asking minor casters to put more effort in to overthrow the "bad" established casters? Are you asking TL to promote up and coming casters more so unknowns get a better shot at being known? Are you asking the established casters to take their job more seriously?
I just don't get the point. You've said "If casters were better, the scene would be better" without offering a path of how to get there from here.
You say some friends tried and failed to be casters. The beauty of this community is that the only way you can fail as a caster is to stop casting. If you are getting into it for the fame/money/power you are doing it for the wrong reason.
Do you think its any easier to get into any other profession with so few high visibility positions? How the hell do you think Joe Buck is a sportscaster. Most people hate him, but he's got the right ties.
And as long as I mentioned fame/money/power I'll just put this right here....
On February 02 2012 18:26 vtbarrera wrote: The Sc2 casting scene does seem a little clique, but at the same time it's not necessarily unwarranted or bad thing. Look at CatzPajamas, he's the perfect example of your "play by play" average guy who made it as a caster. I'm sorry that your two friends couldn't really break through in the way they wanted but the barrier to entry is fairly high as the market is becoming over saturated with many low quality casters. There's some diamonds in the rough that have a decent following but only so many casters can be on the Day9/Tasteosis/Bitterdam/TB-Apollo level.
To be fair, pretty much anyone can be on "Bitterdam's" level because they are... not very good. Might be they'd do a better work with more work put in but overall they are way below the other combos you mentioned.
They constantly bicker with each other, they find one kinda-funny-joke and run with that for the rest of the tournament (MMA's jacket during IEM Kiev for example) which makes the joke not very funny. Their analysis isn't very top level either so I, personally, don't see their appeal at all.
They get to cast a lot, however, so I guess I am a clear minority in this or it's like the OP says; more convenient to hire somewhat known and popular casters than making a gamble on casters that might be a lot better.
Lol.. I personally think Bitterdam is about the nicest thing that can happen to any event, on the other side Day9 and most of all DJWheat makes me switch the stream asap. That does not make them bad casters.... Tastes are diffrent.
Totally agree. I actually think Bitterdam is the best caster duo at the moment, it's a shame Tastosis still get so much recognition even though it was such a long time ago that they were great. Bitterdam should get flown around to all the big tournaments, because they are awesome. Totally agree about DJWheat as well, he just doesn't have the personality to be a caster.
EPT
) and just keeping at it and hoping for a break and a chance in front of a large audience.
