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On January 18 2012 19:17 GeOnoSis wrote:
Tobberoth I agree with you, but that's the life of TvZ! Terran doesn't micro, everything is dead. Terran does micro: minimal losses and every zerg unit is dead. You don't watch your mutas for one second, 5-10 (if not even every) are just dead (flying over marines just because terran moved randomly out). One mistake can lead to an instant loss...for BOTH sides.
I'm not saying it's unbalanced for Zerg, Thor vs Muta was just an example. Of course, it's just as detrimental that seiging 1 second too late makes a terran army melt in 2 seconds to a zerg swarm.
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On January 18 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:06 GeOnoSis wrote:
very interesting, but I don't agree with your static defense... cannons would be just to strong! Just imagine A cannon going up behind the zerg expansion or behind a wall, making it impossible to attack. Also all this changes would make Mutas pretty useless. If Turrets would do even more damage, Mutas would be stupid to play. You already need like 18+ Mutas to kill 1 Turret, when the terran repairs it and often time you still lose one. And if there is any Zerg unit, which can't get really hardcountered, it's the Mutalisk. With proper micro you can dodge storms, magic box against thors and so on...
But that leads to a problem, you already mentioned: Too much firepower, or at least to hard counters.
Like you said it's just a joke to fight with Stalkers or Roaches against Marauders or sth like that. But also, did you ever fight with an army of just stalkers and sentries against a Roach Ling army and completely got crushed? Probably yes, but did you fight against one with the same size and completely crushes him just because of forcefields? Probably YES! I think something like forcefields is sooo hard to balance. In the early game, they can just prevent any aggression in many situations and in other, nearly completely useless. I know I might wrote some weird things :D but well in the end I just think that there are too many hardcounters and the DPS against certain Unit types is obviously a huge factor. Thors vs Muta overall is just dumb as crap. One minor mistake, such as flying 1 milimeter too close to a thor you haven't seen, and he gets one shot off. Boom, 20 mutas brought to orange HP. The idea that you have to micro mutas against Thors is a good thing, it's a counter which can be overcome by skill. Problem again being firepower and speed, there's NO margin for error. A ½ second is enough to go from a good position to a bad position just because of the insane firepower of a single thor. Like OP said, this fight would also benefit from a 50% balance. Lower the damage by 50%, but increase the splash range, or something like that. Encourange micro, while not making minor mistakes cost too much.
Thors being killed by 2/3 mutas when magic boxed isnt silly?
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4713 Posts
I kind of agree, some match ups feel very unforgiving because the fights end way too fast due to the huge ammount of firepower.
TvP is the worst contender. One single slip up from both players can lose you the entire game. Colossus are sent too much in front and they get destroyed by Vikings, after which the bio ball rolls you. HT are too far forward and/or not spread and they get EMPed/Sniped and then the army gets rolled by the bio.
On the other side though, if you mess up and get your vikings too far forward they can get sniped/stormed by HT and you then auto-lose because you can't reach and destroy the colossus. If you also fuck up with your ghosts and get them all storm/EMPed you can then get rolled over by mass storms.
I feel like TvZ and TvT feel best because the fight doesn't end instantly in most cases. Stutter step micro, focus fire micro, splits, etc play a huge role and fights, are sometimes a lot more drawn out and long.
In both TvT and TvZ, tanks can zone an area more effectively than in TvP, so players have to respect the tank and have to consider other avenuse of attack.
Either harassing with mutas, droping, nuking or using burrowed infestors. And, with the exception of Fungal Growth, there is plenty of room to micro in almost all cases, so the player with the better micro can feel very rewarded. Just think of those amazing MKP moments where he stutter steps and kills huge numbers of lings, focus fire stutters and snipes off banes, or does amazing 5 way splits and annihilates huge numbers of banes.
In conclusion, I agree a lot, I think the game would be a lot more interesting everyone had interesting if firepower wasn't quite so ridiculous, if micro-reducing abilities weren't so powerful, if early hard counters weren't so hard and if zone control was respected more.
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" Lings with favorable numbers eat through almost everything"
where do i get these lings? would help me win since my lings get raped by forcefields and hellions
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I feel it's mostly TvP that's really a blob vs blob fight. TvZ, TvT, and (to a lesser extent) PvZ are better in this regard.
Also the zone out thing seems like you're asking for more turtling as if it will be that easy to defend a expansion the whole gameplay will change. I don't really find it "more interesting" if dropping some passive defences will protect you from ling run by's and drops. Isn't the point that it's supposed to be hard to deal with multipronged attacks and to make sure your base is not open for counter attacks?
Your post gives of the feel that you really, really dislike any kind of all in. Seems like you want the game remodeled to something like "15 min no attack kk?" which i find totally boring.
Almost everything you suggest have been said countless times and with better references to BW and other games, your OP doesn't really add anything to posts made a year ago on the same subject.
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On January 18 2012 19:27 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:On January 18 2012 19:06 GeOnoSis wrote:
very interesting, but I don't agree with your static defense... cannons would be just to strong! Just imagine A cannon going up behind the zerg expansion or behind a wall, making it impossible to attack. Also all this changes would make Mutas pretty useless. If Turrets would do even more damage, Mutas would be stupid to play. You already need like 18+ Mutas to kill 1 Turret, when the terran repairs it and often time you still lose one. And if there is any Zerg unit, which can't get really hardcountered, it's the Mutalisk. With proper micro you can dodge storms, magic box against thors and so on...
But that leads to a problem, you already mentioned: Too much firepower, or at least to hard counters.
Like you said it's just a joke to fight with Stalkers or Roaches against Marauders or sth like that. But also, did you ever fight with an army of just stalkers and sentries against a Roach Ling army and completely got crushed? Probably yes, but did you fight against one with the same size and completely crushes him just because of forcefields? Probably YES! I think something like forcefields is sooo hard to balance. In the early game, they can just prevent any aggression in many situations and in other, nearly completely useless. I know I might wrote some weird things :D but well in the end I just think that there are too many hardcounters and the DPS against certain Unit types is obviously a huge factor. Thors vs Muta overall is just dumb as crap. One minor mistake, such as flying 1 milimeter too close to a thor you haven't seen, and he gets one shot off. Boom, 20 mutas brought to orange HP. The idea that you have to micro mutas against Thors is a good thing, it's a counter which can be overcome by skill. Problem again being firepower and speed, there's NO margin for error. A ½ second is enough to go from a good position to a bad position just because of the insane firepower of a single thor. Like OP said, this fight would also benefit from a 50% balance. Lower the damage by 50%, but increase the splash range, or something like that. Encourange micro, while not making minor mistakes cost too much. Thors being killed by 2/3 mutas when magic boxed isnt silly?
Maybe you forgot to read my post before replying to it, that happens. The point of a balance change would be to lower the effectiveness of lucky shots from thors, while raising their efficiency against magic boxed mutas. So yes, obviously, the effectiveness of magic boxed mutas against Thors is silly.
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I agree. This game could be better. Battles end too quickly and decisively due to terrible damage syndrome. The other things you mention would also slow the game down. Also INB4 "slowing the game down would make it easier" comments. Go home trolls. A reasonable person could see that "slowing" down battles would equate to the more strategic player having a slighter advantage giving him time to react. Too many times I see the worser player go home the victor due to stupid 200/200 engagements that last a split second.
I liked your comment on the stalker also.
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On January 18 2012 19:06 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 18:58 slytown wrote:If you don't like the game, go back to playing BW. Noone's stopping you. You're listing off complete design changes instead of specific issues. I love BW and won't hate you for switching back.  I never understood these kind of comments - 'go play BW'. What's wrong with wanting to make the game better? if there is smth good in bw why shouldn't we adopt it. if you have nothing to contribute to discussion just move on pls.
Because SC2 and BW are not the same game?
If half of the QQers about SC2 had things their way, we'd be playing BW right now with SC2 graphics. 
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fuckin ridiculous how everybody whines about balance n stuff. just fuck off and play, you'll get better and win. Daily 400 showed me onc again what's important and what's not. Balance is only important if you're work for blizzard and design the balance and then you shouldn't whine about it but improve it obviously
User was warned for this post
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Agreeed. Tired of this "toss a move" bullshit
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On January 18 2012 19:27 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:On January 18 2012 19:06 GeOnoSis wrote:
very interesting, but I don't agree with your static defense... cannons would be just to strong! Just imagine A cannon going up behind the zerg expansion or behind a wall, making it impossible to attack. Also all this changes would make Mutas pretty useless. If Turrets would do even more damage, Mutas would be stupid to play. You already need like 18+ Mutas to kill 1 Turret, when the terran repairs it and often time you still lose one. And if there is any Zerg unit, which can't get really hardcountered, it's the Mutalisk. With proper micro you can dodge storms, magic box against thors and so on...
But that leads to a problem, you already mentioned: Too much firepower, or at least to hard counters.
Like you said it's just a joke to fight with Stalkers or Roaches against Marauders or sth like that. But also, did you ever fight with an army of just stalkers and sentries against a Roach Ling army and completely got crushed? Probably yes, but did you fight against one with the same size and completely crushes him just because of forcefields? Probably YES! I think something like forcefields is sooo hard to balance. In the early game, they can just prevent any aggression in many situations and in other, nearly completely useless. I know I might wrote some weird things :D but well in the end I just think that there are too many hardcounters and the DPS against certain Unit types is obviously a huge factor. Thors vs Muta overall is just dumb as crap. One minor mistake, such as flying 1 milimeter too close to a thor you haven't seen, and he gets one shot off. Boom, 20 mutas brought to orange HP. The idea that you have to micro mutas against Thors is a good thing, it's a counter which can be overcome by skill. Problem again being firepower and speed, there's NO margin for error. A ½ second is enough to go from a good position to a bad position just because of the insane firepower of a single thor. Like OP said, this fight would also benefit from a 50% balance. Lower the damage by 50%, but increase the splash range, or something like that. Encourange micro, while not making minor mistakes cost too much. Thors being killed by 2/3 mutas when magic boxed isnt silly?
6 supply vs 6 supply. 300/300 resource vs 300/200. One person micro's a little bit and one a-moves. Sorry what is the problem here? It's a 'soft' counter that gets beat by micro?? That fits into the OPs point about this game... if anything it supports his point and shouldn't be messed with... good work.
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On January 18 2012 19:37 karpo wrote:
I feel it's mostly TvP that's really a blob vs blob fight. TvZ, TvT, and (to a lesser extent) PvZ are better in this regard.
Also the zone out thing seems like you're asking for more turtling as if it will be that easy to defend a expansion the whole gameplay will change. I don't really find it "more interesting" if dropping some passive defences will protect you from ling run by's and drops. Isn't the point that it's supposed to be hard to deal with multipronged attacks and to make sure your base is not open for counter attacks?
Your post gives of the feel that you really, really dislike any kind of all in. Seems like you want the game remodeled to something like "15 min no attack kk?" which i find totally boring.
Almost everything you suggest have been said countless times and with better references to BW and other games, your OP doesn't really add anything to posts made a year ago on the same subject.
I agree with you on the match ups. TvZ in my opinion is the most ascetically pleasing of all the match ups. You can really see what is going on and its all about Pushing as T and Push Breaking as Z which is awesome to watch. Z lacks a way to defensively slow down a Push though IMO.
PvZ is cool and about managing multiple control groups from both sides to deal with straight up main army engagements as well as small party counter attacks.
PvT is the retarded cousin of this group... Besides drops it is all about main army vs main army which means attack of the blobs. Also its the worst match up for the terrible damage syndrome. Storm, EMP, Stim, Collosis just do too much damage that prevents cognitive function during fights.
Edit: I would like to also add that building 15+ Ghosts infestors or High Templar is utterly retarded seeing as they are support units.
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On January 18 2012 19:58 k3m4 wrote:
fuckin ridiculous how everybody whines about balance n stuff. just fuck off and play, you'll get better and win. Daily 400 showed me onc again what's important and what's not. Balance is only important if you're work for blizzard and design the balance and then you shouldn't whine about it but improve it obviously
Don't post in topics about things you don't comprehend. This isn't a balance whine in any way at all, it's a discussion on design flaws in the game which makes it less fun to play.
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On January 18 2012 19:55 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:06 bokeevboke wrote:On January 18 2012 18:58 slytown wrote:If you don't like the game, go back to playing BW. Noone's stopping you. You're listing off complete design changes instead of specific issues. I love BW and won't hate you for switching back. I never understood these kind of comments - 'go play BW'. What's wrong with wanting to make the game better? if there is smth good in bw why shouldn't we adopt it. if you have nothing to contribute to discussion just move on pls. Because SC2 and BW are not the same game? If half of the QQers about SC2 had things their way, we'd be playing BW right now with SC2 graphics.
So just because two games are not the same game, they shouldn't take the good parts from each other? Wow, you blow my mind that someone could have such a weird opinion.
"I prefer games to be different rather than good."
Ok man.
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good news, HOTS agree's with you.
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On January 18 2012 20:01 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:27 tokicheese wrote:On January 18 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:On January 18 2012 19:06 GeOnoSis wrote:
very interesting, but I don't agree with your static defense... cannons would be just to strong! Just imagine A cannon going up behind the zerg expansion or behind a wall, making it impossible to attack. Also all this changes would make Mutas pretty useless. If Turrets would do even more damage, Mutas would be stupid to play. You already need like 18+ Mutas to kill 1 Turret, when the terran repairs it and often time you still lose one. And if there is any Zerg unit, which can't get really hardcountered, it's the Mutalisk. With proper micro you can dodge storms, magic box against thors and so on...
But that leads to a problem, you already mentioned: Too much firepower, or at least to hard counters.
Like you said it's just a joke to fight with Stalkers or Roaches against Marauders or sth like that. But also, did you ever fight with an army of just stalkers and sentries against a Roach Ling army and completely got crushed? Probably yes, but did you fight against one with the same size and completely crushes him just because of forcefields? Probably YES! I think something like forcefields is sooo hard to balance. In the early game, they can just prevent any aggression in many situations and in other, nearly completely useless. I know I might wrote some weird things :D but well in the end I just think that there are too many hardcounters and the DPS against certain Unit types is obviously a huge factor. Thors vs Muta overall is just dumb as crap. One minor mistake, such as flying 1 milimeter too close to a thor you haven't seen, and he gets one shot off. Boom, 20 mutas brought to orange HP. The idea that you have to micro mutas against Thors is a good thing, it's a counter which can be overcome by skill. Problem again being firepower and speed, there's NO margin for error. A ½ second is enough to go from a good position to a bad position just because of the insane firepower of a single thor. Like OP said, this fight would also benefit from a 50% balance. Lower the damage by 50%, but increase the splash range, or something like that. Encourange micro, while not making minor mistakes cost too much. Thors being killed by 2/3 mutas when magic boxed isnt silly? 6 supply vs 6 supply. 300/300 resource vs 300/200. One person micro's a little bit and one a-moves. Sorry what is the problem here? It's a 'soft' counter that gets beat by micro?? That fits into the OPs point about this game... if anything it supports his point and shouldn't be messed with... good work.
Thors take longer to make and cannot be massed like mutas. Plus they are supposed to be an epic unit and turn out like pussys when magic boxed. Plus its not like the thor can do anything to prevent being magic boxed. Your A move comment is dumb. Thats all it can do. So either the Z player is smart or he is not.. No reliance on the T player. The OP in my opinion would like it to be a two sided coin, where both forces can be microd against each other to maximize efficiency of both armies. I think everyone wants more situations like that in this game.
Im a Protoss BTW so Im not biased about Thor v Muta.
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On January 18 2012 19:59 ReaperX wrote:
Agreeed. Tired of this "toss a move" bullshit
In our defense A move is all we can do to efficiently win. Our armies are not good in small groups. The only thing we have to micro is our caster units and those play such a crucial role that in a 5 second engagement you have to worry about those units over everything else.
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While I agree with the "too high DPS" and would lower the firerate of all units by 20-30%, I feel the static defenses are good right now. And remember if the general DPS would be lowered the static defense already becomes stronger. The stalker is perfect right now.
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On January 18 2012 20:07 R3demption wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:59 ReaperX wrote:
Agreeed. Tired of this "toss a move" bullshit In our defense A move is all we can do to efficiently win. Our armies are not good in small groups. The only thing we have to micro is our caster units and those play such a crucial role that in a 5 second engagement you have to worry about those units over everything else.
True
I have been frustrated about seeing Terran drops (Pro play) lately against superior Protoss supply, but because the Terran drops in 2 places with half his army, it becomes like 30 supply T vs 40 supply P on 2 fronts, which Terran wins both.... That's ridiculous.
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EPT
