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On January 19 2012 16:08 LanTAs wrote:
Colosi are impossible to deal with vs T or vs Z if you don't have a lot of air support, and i mean ALOT. thats one good example for you.
The proof? You play the game, please tell me you haven't had a player mass just one unit and just overwhelm you with it (cough marines maybe?)
If i lost to someone massing marines that means i played incorrectly. It's not an indication of a flaw in the game because i lost to simple "strategy". Colossi are not impossible to deal with, without air support. You can just spread and attack in multiple spots at once. 1 colossus alone will lose to few marauders that together cost less than the colossus. It's a matter of compositions and positioning. You can also destroy robo bay, you can use faster units to attack places where there are no colossi etc. There are ways do deal with colossi without air support, but also with. Why shouldn't you be required to make correct units in order to deal with other stuff? Why are you complaining? You're saying that it's wrong that units can be countered and at the same time you're saying that it's wrong that some things (in your opinion) can't be countered. You make absolutely no sense at all.
AOE units have insanely higher DPS to individual units, not to mention their attacks also radiate withitin a certain radius, you basically need more units to counter them or split them in a certain way and hit AOE units before they can shoot a 2nd volley
So what stops you from doing that? You can build counter units, build aoe units of your own, split, avoid, attack somewhere else or gather more resources and win even by trading cost ineffectively. There are many ways of dealing with it, what's your problem? Too hard? Sucks for you.
Right now, spells are just impossible to counter once casted, and even before casted it is way to hard to stop it, it depends on your opponents mistake of a stupid cast.
Why the fuck should you be able to do so? What the fuck? "Oh i walked 15 clumped marines into a fungal and i couldn't move out of it". You have to prevent it. That's the skill you have to use. Spread your units before, scan, scout with 1 marine in front. Basicly, think and play well. How is that a flaw in the game, that thinking and making more actions can benefit you while not thinking ahead can hurt you? It's great fucking design on that part.
Thats enough, i dont even know what you wrote or what league you played in, but it is definitely not very high. Once you get to masters, you understand a lot of this stupid shit that happens due to the fact that the other person just made more workers than you and just won the game, and i don't believe thats a true display of skill.
No comment. You're either a troll or a person with severe intellectual deficits. In either case there is no point in further discussion with you.
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On January 19 2012 17:22 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 17:08 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 18 2012 18:58 slytown wrote:If you don't like the game, go back to playing BW. Noone's stopping you. You're listing off complete design changes instead of specific issues. I love BW and won't hate you for switching back.  This kind of argument is the most retarded kind there is. People complaining about a subject don't need to be reminded that they can quit anytime. It's obvious that they love the game and want it to be better and leaving it is not the solution. When you have a gf you just go back to your ex when she does something you don't like or you actually prefer if she changed in a better person. These people on the internet.... Its sad a specially if lead designer tells you the same...
'tis sad indeed
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I don't read too much of the forums, nor do I post many replies because every forum on the internet is full of jockeys that will insult someone's intelligence, discredit them, and overall show their internet elitism through words. I am just posting my opinion, my position, and I am insulting no one for thinking otherwise. I agree with the OP 110% on most of the points he made, so I'll share mine.
However, this topic hits home for me. As a Terran player myself (in broodwar and sc2, Terran 4 life lol) I have noticed for a looooong time (ever since the Archon got some love being immune to slow and gaining some range) that Protoss is supremely strong (impossible to deal with) in late game TvP regardless of situational circumstances, having a huge economic lead/doing a lot of mid game damage/early game successful harassment (personal experience, personal opinion). The more I watch of GSL, the more that the point you made about the mechanics of the game are becoming true. I am not a Terran fanboy. My favorite player is NesTea. I play Terran, it is not my wish to watch every tournament be won by a Terran player. Pretty much, any time a TvP goes to the 18 minute mark, the Terran player should just do us all a favor and GG out of the game. TvP isn't the only issue, but it's the only issue that I truly understand because I have personal experience with it. From an observer standpoint, any time in PvZ that a Protoss finds himself more than one base down from a Zerg, he should also do us all a favor and GG out of that game, unless of course, it is a late-game scenario, and the Protoss has a mothership and Archons and the zerg has a handful of Brood Lords clumped up, then the Zerg should just do us all a favor and just GG there and save us all some time. The fact that broodwar had so many memorable games that had amazing, incredible, almost impossible comebacks in the late game was something that drawn me into watching those hours-long videos of a strange and foriegn language that I didn't understand. (To name a few, iloveoov's (circa 2005) lategame TvP I can remember some incredible combacks, as well as savior. Bisu is also a comeback king when it comes to playing from behind.)
I didn't have to understand that language, because the content and gameplay was so exciting and unpredictable. It was the most entertaining game I have ever watched. Code S Ro32, Group H - NaDa, Keen, Parting and Puzzle was the most BORING day of GSL code S I have ever watched. The most exciting matches were played between NaDa and Keen. At least there, the mechanics of the players shined in the series, and the strategic game sense and army positioning brought them to victory. Not a gimmicky Nexus-first into making a massive amount of gateways, pushing out with a probe dropping proxy pylons, and warping in a ton of units and completely nullifying 3 bunkers with 20 scvs attempting to repair. Not a huge army jockeying in the middle of the map for 8 minutes. Not watching every harass attempt be cleaned up with little effort. Not watching a player die to one engagement.
Of Keen vs Puzzle on metropolis. I had known Keen lost the game when his mid game push into Puzzle's third got forcefielded and crushed. He double expanded behind it. I think some people are going to interpret this into a terran QQ post. Forgive me, but Terran is the race that I play personally, so I am only speaking from experience. It is also worthy to note that Zergs can handle Protoss death ball quite more efficiently and effectively than terran. There is a reason why PvP doesn't reach late game, ever. All races have units that die too fast, and kill things too fast. There are too many hard counters, and units that aren't good for anything. Corrupters, Vikings, Pheonix... it can be argued that Pheonix have more utility. Hydralisks---good against many things, but horribly inefficient against ground units off of creep. Immortals are hard counter to mech, but they are more than fairly good against all ground units. Siege tanks are GREAT in TvZ, but in TvP they either get hard countered, or they get efficiently soft countered by units like zealots, a unit that has true grit, and draws friendly fire splash damage. Banshees are great, but cloak is a coinflip.
tl;dr The game needs mechanics and units that prevent the other player from a-moving and winning outright. Too many hard counters makes TvP not interesting past the 12 minute mark. End game lacks the depth in mechanical skill curve to be seen distinguishable from good players - and the very best. There are some instances of which a player scouts a strategy, and may prepare and may over-prepare and still lose due to nullifying mechanics such as forcefielding structures. End game being uneventful jockeying armies pathing down the same real estate over and over until engagement is either forced, or otherwise inevitable. Mirror matches showing the true skill and mechanical genius and strategy of players rather than racial matchups. TvZ being the most exciting, PvZ TvP being the least exciting and predictable matchup. (given the current meta game of forge expand + deathball or forge expand + timing attack into 3rd base end-game high tier deathball to inevitable mothership vortexing broodlords for the win. any match going longer than 18 minutes in TvP gg terran.)
Edit: I forgot to add how completely boring PvZ is when it is mass muta. Up there with late game TvP in terms of apathy from a spectator's chair.
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Dariusz, spreading units vs mass colossi is indeed pointless, as the splash damage is applied perpendicular to the direction of attack. Creating a single-file line would be more effective vs colossus alone, but would be uneventful if the colossus is accompanied by any other units. Also, the micro it would require to do so would be a bit much. It's clear that you are biased, which solidifies my position on posting on forums. Why are you so emotionally charged because someone voiced their opinion? You seem to have a lot of anger issues. It's just a forum. It's just a topic. Stay friendly and open-minded, and you might learn something from others in life.
I also want to add in regard to the previous post. I just really want Protoss games to be more entertaining. It may just be my personal preference to see back-and-forth, scrappy type games versus the balls-to-the-wall all-out engagement deciding the fate of the game. I absolutely love TvP early and mid-game, and how fragile it is, but the late game is so extremely boring, I almost can't stand it as a spectator. I guess it could also be because my RTS passion started with broodwar, a game where long, drawn out, nail-biting TvP engagements and small advantages during which... and watching the amazing micro and unit control and interesting mechanics of arbiter control, shuttle zealot bombs, reaver harass, and tank lines with turrets and vulture counter attacks with minefields, coupled with science vessel emp sniping and the occasional ghost strategy. It seemed so diverse and exciting... compared to sc2 TvP, it is the bee's knees.
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On January 19 2012 07:47 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 07:24 EternaLLegacy wrote:On January 19 2012 07:19 PH wrote:On January 18 2012 19:55 iKill wrote:On January 18 2012 19:06 bokeevboke wrote:On January 18 2012 18:58 slytown wrote:If you don't like the game, go back to playing BW. Noone's stopping you. You're listing off complete design changes instead of specific issues. I love BW and won't hate you for switching back. I never understood these kind of comments - 'go play BW'. What's wrong with wanting to make the game better? if there is smth good in bw why shouldn't we adopt it. if you have nothing to contribute to discussion just move on pls. Because SC2 and BW are not the same game? If half of the QQers about SC2 had things their way, we'd be playing BW right now with SC2 graphics.  If we were playing BW with SC2 graphics, we'd have a perfect game. You realize that already exists, right? It's called SC2BW. its a far cry to bw. i've played it awhile ago, maybe it improved a lot by now but it was very buggy and the unit proportions were off, couldn't even block chokes. plus, you can't really play with how custom games work. i just think those who played bw for years have little more say on what is good/bad with sc2 (i'm not talking about "oh i used to play when i was a kid"), and people are just brushing it off like they're whining, when they're only trying to make the game better through discussion/awareness. i mean, i think everyone agrees the old b.net system was better for custom games, we're complaining, we want the older system back or make the current one better.(its my personal opinion that blizzard did this on purpose to decrease popularity of custom games to keep AutoMM active). this complaint is no different with sc2 gameplay. there's something wrong, something needs to be said, and its being said. no need to brush off, treating it like cries. the complaints are valid. the shredder being added fucking boggles my mind on what they're doing to the game (hard unit counter, not micro-countered, like spider mines). this unit is up there with mothership in my eyes, units that dont belong. this is the type of thing that prevents me to believe "blizzard is doing their best to live up to its predecessor".
Yah, fair enough.
Almost everything in the transition to SC2 has turned out to be outrageously stupid. The only good things I can think up off the top of my head are a matchmaking system (which war3 had already), good observer features, and a slightly better but still pretty bad chat interface (HoN set the bar for that).
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I think it wouldn't matter if individual units were fixed. I think the real core of the problem lies in how mechanics are affected. You can do complex things so much easier in SC2. Unit selection, for example, allows you to take your entire army and move it across the map, effectively. You don't really have streams of units pouring over the map, reinforcing many back-and-forth engagements. Instead you have two clumps jockeying for position, looking for the tiniest little advantage, since positional advantages and such are so hard to come by given how easy it is for both players to stay mobile in the ever-so-deadly "deathball formation". Get rid of this ugly part of the game, then worry about fixing the specific boring units such as colossi. I do like all the ideas here, but the main issue really has got to be the larger problem of how we are able to control units in SC2.
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Northern Ireland26440 Posts
Anybody have an idea what the kind of proportions of posters who think 'SC2 is fine, leave it alone' vs 'SC2 has great potential but could do with a few mechanical changes' is?
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On January 20 2012 01:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
Anybody have an idea what the kind of proportions of posters who think 'SC2 is fine, leave it alone' vs 'SC2 has great potential but could do with a few mechanical changes' is?
Poll time?
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A poll would be nice indeed. The thing is I really do enjoy watching and playing SC2, not sure I could say the same about BW since I never played the multiplayer. But it sure doesn't sound like much fun.
I am a bit confused by people who basically want to make SC2:BW, when BW *still exists* and from what I gather has an active competitive scene still.
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Northern Ireland26440 Posts
Yeah, well how much you want to change things will vary. For me it's a bit less clumping, more variety in unit move speeds and a few other small things solely aimed at trying to prevent deathballing. Others want like, auto-mining taken off but I'm not that extreme
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The points you made here make complete sense. Hard counters do give a strategic advantage to the game, but they probably are doing far too much at the moment. There needs to be ways to discourage how all-in friendly the game is right now and your solution with better static defenses could do just that.
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I've long said too much DPS is the problem, since beta in fact. I wanted marines to have 5 damage instead of 6 (This was when stim was way faster to research, you could make barracks without supply depots, bunkers/barracks built faster, etc...)
Honestly though that's just how the game works now. I wouldn't change it for anything; sc2 is about fast thinking and fast play more than anything... and in HOTS my burrow movement banelings will create a sea of salty tears that I will quench my thirst with all day every day.
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In my opinion the problem with Starcraft 2 as opposed to Brood War is that you can never flee from a battle; once you engage your blob, you will either kill his blob or lose your own. So what do I mean by this?
TvZ: you retreat your army and then all his faster zerglings will surround your army.
ZvT: tanks and marines will get in so many shots on you it will be more cost effective to just attack.
PvT: marauders will slow you.
TvP: force fields.
PvZ: all of your sentries are now gone to zerglings.
ZvP: force fields.
All those you-can't-leave spells and the speed of zerglings just begs for this to happen. So unless that changes this all-in mentality will stay.
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I truly agree with this post. Very well thought out and several excellent points, especially the ones about static defense and hard countering vs soft countering.
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On January 18 2012 18:28 Filter wrote:
Have you ever lost to a player using a lot of stalkers (outside of allins) where it felt awful and terrible? Where it felt like there was nothing you could do he just clicked a couple of buttons and autowon? I haven't.
Umm, have you ever lost to a blink stalker all-in in ZvP? I have. It sucks. I felt awful. I felt mad.
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On January 20 2012 06:18 david.oh.k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 18:28 Filter wrote:
Have you ever lost to a player using a lot of stalkers (outside of allins) where it felt awful and terrible? Where it felt like there was nothing you could do he just clicked a couple of buttons and autowon? I haven't.
Umm, have you ever lost to a blink stalker all-in in ZvP? I have. It sucks. I felt awful. I felt mad.
He specifically said outside of all-ins in the OP.
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I love this OP. Basically spelled out all of my concerns/complaints I have with SC2's pacing and unit design in general. The issue with "zoning" and ineffective static defense is my BIGGEST gripe.
Also, why in the hell did they move the medic to the dropship (medivac)?!?! Streamlining for dummies for the win.
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The problem with this is obviously one of balance -- blizzard simply CAN'T make these changes in wings of liberty.
Now, lets move to a point where blizzard CAN make such changes: Heart of the Swarm. Unforchidently, the way the game is looking now with all of its fancy spells and such the problems mentioned in the OP will only be worse and harder to get away from. Pray that Activision doesn't run SC2 into the ground too quickly
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I hate how all matchups boils down to "don't let them get to that point or you lose" Don't let P turtle to 3 bases, must kill zerg within 10 minutes, must defend against terrans first early push or the games over"
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I agree with everything but weak static defense, broodwar static defense was even weaker but it didn't matter since you used tanks/mines/lurkers/etc to defend while also having some turrets/sunkens/etc, stronger siege units is all you need, you don't need stronger static defense on top of stronger siege unless you really want every game played ever to last over an hour because allins really wouldn't be viable anymore at all
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EPT
