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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. |
On January 18 2012 17:38 legaton wrote:
Coach Lee was one of the best coaches in Broodwar and has more experience managing a team than any of his critics. Sadly, TSL is poor and SC2 in Korea generates no money. TSL has become some kind of supermarket for foreign teams, must be super frustrating to lose all the players you have worked with for months.
Virgil said that TSL was one of the richer Korean teams.
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I wonder, would this be as big a deal if it were a foreign player being rumored to drop his team and join a Korean team?
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On January 18 2012 17:35 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:33 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:31 ReboundEU wrote:
I bet if his players would have girlfriends he would make an article about them wanting to steal the players Have you a coach team before in your life ? A professional one that is ? I bet you don't and yet you are criticising as though you can do a better job for the team . U don't need to coach a team to see how exagerated and premature his statements are....with no backend to it or even trying to shed light on the situation BEFORE starting to flame other teams. Tell me why so many players have a tendancy to leave TSL if this Coach has so much experience in this field witch i don't deny. I dunno any team that has had so many controversial player desertations in SC2...tell me 1 please.... if there isn't any then anyone could assume something is wrong with TSL in general... U hear a rumor (that might be right or wrong) and start crying before even getting your facts down...yea..pro work bro
The fact is you are only picking on him on the basis that "Premature statements " it's like you have a personal vendetta against him . It's possible that Alive was approach back door and as a coach you are of course will do what ever you can to see to save your players and remedy the situation at hand .Even if it means accusing other teams of doing so , Why would Coach lee even mention about the translator and this back door dealing if it hadn't know about it . You think he would make up all of this dealing by him self and be called a paranoid ? . I don't see a reason why the coach assumptions should be criticised for .Alone and Tsl had a contract , contracts are enforceable by the court of the law , you breach the contract , the players are going to have suffer consequences for it .
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On January 18 2012 17:40 lavit2099 wrote:
I wonder, would this be as big a deal if it were a foreign player being rumored to drop his team and join a Korean team?
Yes, and if only because in the history of Starcraft 2, only one foreigner has joined a Korean team (that being Fenix with IM)
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On January 18 2012 17:40 Andrew2658 wrote:
Virgil said that TSL was one of the richer Korean teams.
Take that with a grain of salt. No one can confirm or deny finances.
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On January 18 2012 17:02 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 16:55 Longshank wrote:Looks like Virgil wasn't in the know after all. I don't even know why I bother.
No please continue, it's entertaining to read your gossip from time to time. It's just that it doesn't look good when you still go for your second hand sources when ToD who by all reasons would know a shit ton more than you about this case told you wrong, even suggesting he probably wasn't in the loop. That's pretty damn arrogant.
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On January 18 2012 17:02 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 16:57 lavit2099 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:52 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:49 lavit2099 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:47 VirgilSC2 wrote:This certainly puts an interesting twist on things. I'm inclined to believe it somewhat at this point, seeing as most of my information came from close to TSL and could therefore be biased, however this sounds like a much larger problem than a misunderstanding. Crow tastes pretty good, huh? I don't see your point, it's not like Fnatics article clears any of this up at all, it simply states their side of the story. I'm still more inclined to still believe the TSL side of this over the Fnatic. However, I have noticed that you seem to have some problem with me. Naw, it's nothing personal. It's your blind devotion to TSL and the attitude you display about how they can't seem to do wrong and they're being attacked by everyone. It's the very fact you're more inclined to still believe the TSL side of this, while you just said a moment ago how you were inclined to believe what Fnatic said and agreed that your information "could therefore be biased." Considering that I have a much closer relationship with TSL than I do Fnatic it's really not that hard to understand. Fnatic's press release leaves a lot of loose ends and half answered questions but I'm also willing to take Fnatic at their word that they haven't signed aLive to a contract simply because Fnatic is a professional organization and they would be crazy to say that and it not be truthful. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 16:55 Longshank wrote:Looks like Virgil wasn't in the know after all. I don't even know why I bother.
Hey Virgil, I just wanted to say that I appreciate the updates. I applaud you for being candid and level-headed. We don't have a lot of close ties with the Korean SC2 scene anymore especially since Milkis left.
Ignore the haters - they are the vocal minority. Comments such as "Crow tastes pretty good, huh?" are immature and don't add to the discussion.
With all the hate-mongering going on in SC2 lately, just know that you are doing this community a good service.
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On January 18 2012 17:37 felisconcolori wrote:
Theorycraft, courtesy of Occam's Razor.
Fnatic didn't try to poach aLive. But, aLive while talking to his friend who happens to be a Fnatic translator winds up possibly talking about differences between the teams. Coach Lee hears that aLive is talking to Fnatic translator, jumps to a conclusion (possibly because something about it reminds him of past events), and then discusses it with aLive, possibly not in a professional and business like manner. (More of an emotional one, like MamaBear scolding a cub that wants to go play in the forest.) aLive takes offense, and decides to leave the team. Heart, another member, agrees with aLive. Virgil gets this from friends and contacts, possibly even people that only know what Lee is saying unofficially. (Thus, he is in the know but still not right.)
DRAMA!!!
Fnatic says they don't want to know why aLive left TSL. Really, it's not their business. They haven't signed aLive, and they probably won't (for awhile at least) even if they really are the villains of the piece and wanted to all along. They do know about how things could get if lawyers get involved.
Humans being humans, I think Lee has reacted emotionally in potentially questionable circumstances. And since the entire scene (and the players, too) are on the young side, there's no established tradition or organization (think Player's Unions, Team Owner's Organization, major league regulatory body) to have set rules and guidance or just best practices, we get drama.
Elly needs to step on drama llamas. Bare facts are... Lee has accused Fnatic, aLive has left and has not joined Fnatic. Lee has threatened to sue for breech of contract - but could only sue aLive with any reasonable chance of success. The ONLY person at this point that can answer all of the questions is aLive... soooo... aLive, why did you leave TSL? Just the facts will do, without accusations or emotional surges - and will make you come out of this whole mess with a decent reputation, at least as being more professional than the coach leveling emotional accusations against another team and yourself.
So yeah. Long story short, aLive needs to be a professional and enunciate why he left, what his plans are, and in a way that doesn't further inflame the llama. Erm, Drama.
i like you ~ i like you a lot.
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I bet that SK will pick him up :p
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On January 18 2012 17:39 evoli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:28 Gamegene wrote:On January 18 2012 17:26 jellyjello wrote:On January 18 2012 17:23 FidoDido wrote:On January 18 2012 17:14 jellyjello wrote:
TSL could really benefit from having a team director much like the role of Jessica in Slayers. Shame on Fnatic as well. I'm going to root really hard for TSL in GSTL. This is exactly what TSL needs! Someone who is willing to defend their players/team to the death (not literally) and will call out any party involved as well as involving a huge legal team. LOL, no not that kind of director. Seems to me that TSL needs someone who can oversea their operations, have plans and vision, and can take the team to the next level. Obviously, this is not one of Coach Lee's forte. i doubt he had this problem coaching MBC. KeSPA made sure that issues like this weren't common, if possible at all.
that may be an issue here, everyone in sc2 so far seems to have a free will and do whatever they want, at least thats the image created, maybe Coach Lee is just inexperienced in those matters because they rarely or never occured while he was at MBC
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On January 18 2012 17:37 obsKura wrote:all this drama aside... what the hell is going on with TSL?! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Team_SCV_LifeFormer playersaLive JYP Killer Clide Rain FruitDealer TricKsteR PuMa GuineaPig Happiness Look at this list of former players, they are top noth and they all left TSL within a year... what is going on? Killer as the team captain once proud of TSL (saw an interview with him) left the team and preferred to be teamless? aLive moved out of the house for personal reasons it says in one of the statements. if anybody has insight why all these really good players are leaving their team please tell me. I can't believe this is all about money.
Definitely some big names on that list. A year from now we'll see whose benefited and who took a step backwards in their career. Thus far:
We can cross FD and Tester off that list, their downfall started with TSL because they were both too lazy to play.
The rest remains to be seen, although a case could be made for PuMa definitely benefiting after leaving TSL.
PuMa - Achieved nice results since joining EG, moving up to 5th overall in prize money. The ability to travel to tournaments around the world and now getting a chance to train with the slayers terrans.
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On January 18 2012 17:45 ToD wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 18 2012 17:37 felisconcolori wrote:
Theorycraft, courtesy of Occam's Razor.
Fnatic didn't try to poach aLive. But, aLive while talking to his friend who happens to be a Fnatic translator winds up possibly talking about differences between the teams. Coach Lee hears that aLive is talking to Fnatic translator, jumps to a conclusion (possibly because something about it reminds him of past events), and then discusses it with aLive, possibly not in a professional and business like manner. (More of an emotional one, like MamaBear scolding a cub that wants to go play in the forest.) aLive takes offense, and decides to leave the team. Heart, another member, agrees with aLive. Virgil gets this from friends and contacts, possibly even people that only know what Lee is saying unofficially. (Thus, he is in the know but still not right.)
DRAMA!!!
Fnatic says they don't want to know why aLive left TSL. Really, it's not their business. They haven't signed aLive, and they probably won't (for awhile at least) even if they really are the villains of the piece and wanted to all along. They do know about how things could get if lawyers get involved.
Humans being humans, I think Lee has reacted emotionally in potentially questionable circumstances. And since the entire scene (and the players, too) are on the young side, there's no established tradition or organization (think Player's Unions, Team Owner's Organization, major league regulatory body) to have set rules and guidance or just best practices, we get drama.
Elly needs to step on drama llamas. Bare facts are... Lee has accused Fnatic, aLive has left and has not joined Fnatic. Lee has threatened to sue for breach of contract - but could only sue aLive with any reasonable chance of success. The ONLY person at this point that can answer all of the questions is aLive... soooo... aLive, why did you leave TSL? Just the facts will do, without accusations or emotional surges - and will make you come out of this whole mess with a decent reputation, at least as being more professional than the coach leveling emotional accusations against another team and yourself.
So yeah. Long story short, aLive needs to be a professional and enunciate why he left, what his plans are, and in a way that doesn't further inflame the llama. Erm, Drama.
i like you ~ i like you a lot.
I blush. Bet you wouldn't say that if you saw my league standings. :p
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On January 18 2012 17:41 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:35 ReboundEU wrote:On January 18 2012 17:33 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:31 ReboundEU wrote:
I bet if his players would have girlfriends he would make an article about them wanting to steal the players Have you a coach team before in your life ? A professional one that is ? I bet you don't and yet you are criticising as though you can do a better job for the team . U don't need to coach a team to see how exagerated and premature his statements are....with no backend to it or even trying to shed light on the situation BEFORE starting to flame other teams. Tell me why so many players have a tendancy to leave TSL if this Coach has so much experience in this field witch i don't deny. I dunno any team that has had so many controversial player desertations in SC2...tell me 1 please.... if there isn't any then anyone could assume something is wrong with TSL in general... U hear a rumor (that might be right or wrong) and start crying before even getting your facts down...yea..pro work bro The fact is you are only picking on him on the basis that "Premature statements " it's like you have a personal vendetta against him . It's possible that Alive was approach back door and as a coach you are of course will do what ever you can to see to save your players and remedy the situation at hand .Even if it means accusing other teams of doing so , Why would Coach lee even mention about the translator and this back door dealing if it hadn't know about it . You think he would make up all of this dealing by him self and be called a paranoid ? . I don't see a reason why the coach assumptions should be criticised for .Alone and Tsl had a contract , contracts are enforceable by the court of the law , you breach the contract , the players are going to have suffer consequences for it .
I have no personal vendeta as long as he comes down with valid facts...i see no facts in what he said + noone can contract alive as long as his current contract is up..that is a fact. The only possibility would be they talked with him to offer a fnatic spot after his contract ends..and that is 100% legal...why so much QQ? It's the players decision what he makes with his life after the contract expires. If he joins fnatic after the contract ends..the TSL list of deserters grows...and that's not because they are doing so well there  .
As u said "contracts are enforceable by the court of the law". U actually think Fnatic is dumb enough to try to contract a player who already is under a contract? or would they try to contract him after his current contract expires? U are to protective of Lee...and see fnatic as a dumb team that risks it's reputation&money to "prematurely sign a player"...witch i think is not the case. If u don't see it like this, and u don't consider fnatic dumb enough to sign a player while under contract...then why is Lee starting up "Flamewars #2" ? Only reason i would see is that players desperatly want to leave his team for an unkown reason, right after their initial contract ends..and he doesn't like that but fact is, it's 100% legal and not "honnorless" from anyones side.
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On January 18 2012 17:37 felisconcolori wrote:
Theorycraft, courtesy of Occam's Razor.
Fnatic didn't try to poach aLive. But, aLive while talking to his friend who happens to be a Fnatic translator winds up possibly talking about differences between the teams. Coach Lee hears that aLive is talking to Fnatic translator, jumps to a conclusion (possibly because something about it reminds him of past events), and then discusses it with aLive, possibly not in a professional and business like manner. (More of an emotional one, like MamaBear scolding a cub that wants to go play in the forest.) aLive takes offense, and decides to leave the team. Heart, another member, agrees with aLive. Virgil gets this from friends and contacts, possibly even people that only know what Lee is saying unofficially. (Thus, he is in the know but still not right.)
DRAMA!!!
Fnatic says they don't want to know why aLive left TSL. Really, it's not their business. They haven't signed aLive, and they probably won't (for awhile at least) even if they really are the villains of the piece and wanted to all along. They do know about how things could get if lawyers get involved.
Humans being humans, I think Lee has reacted emotionally in potentially questionable circumstances. And since the entire scene (and the players, too) are on the young side, there's no established tradition or organization (think Player's Unions, Team Owner's Organization, major league regulatory body) to have set rules and guidance or just best practices, we get drama.
Elly needs to step on drama llamas. Bare facts are... Lee has accused Fnatic, aLive has left and has not joined Fnatic. Lee has threatened to sue for breech of contract - but could only sue aLive with any reasonable chance of success. The ONLY person at this point that can answer all of the questions is aLive... soooo... aLive, why did you leave TSL? Just the facts will do, without accusations or emotional surges - and will make you come out of this whole mess with a decent reputation, at least as being more professional than the coach leveling emotional accusations against another team and yourself.
So yeah. Long story short, aLive needs to be a professional and enunciate why he left, what his plans are, and in a way that doesn't further inflame the llama. Erm, Drama.
This post does a really good job of creating a plausible scenario with available information. I was thinking along htese lines as well, mostly because I am not ready to call anyone an outright lier.
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On January 18 2012 17:47 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:41 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:35 ReboundEU wrote:On January 18 2012 17:33 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:31 ReboundEU wrote:
I bet if his players would have girlfriends he would make an article about them wanting to steal the players Have you a coach team before in your life ? A professional one that is ? I bet you don't and yet you are criticising as though you can do a better job for the team . U don't need to coach a team to see how exagerated and premature his statements are....with no backend to it or even trying to shed light on the situation BEFORE starting to flame other teams. Tell me why so many players have a tendancy to leave TSL if this Coach has so much experience in this field witch i don't deny. I dunno any team that has had so many controversial player desertations in SC2...tell me 1 please.... if there isn't any then anyone could assume something is wrong with TSL in general... U hear a rumor (that might be right or wrong) and start crying before even getting your facts down...yea..pro work bro The fact is you are only picking on him on the basis that "Premature statements " it's like you have a personal vendetta against him . It's possible that Alive was approach back door and as a coach you are of course will do what ever you can to see to save your players and remedy the situation at hand .Even if it means accusing other teams of doing so , Why would Coach lee even mention about the translator and this back door dealing if it hadn't know about it . You think he would make up all of this dealing by him self and be called a paranoid ? . I don't see a reason why the coach assumptions should be criticised for .Alone and Tsl had a contract , contracts are enforceable by the court of the law , you breach the contract , the players are going to have suffer consequences for it . I have no personal vendeta as long as he comes down with valid facts...i see no facts in what he said + noone can contract alive as long as his current contract is up..that is a fact. The only possibility would be they talked with him to offer a fnatic spot after his contract ends..and that is 100% legal...why so much QQ? It's the players decision what he makes with his life after the contract expires. If he joins fnatic after the contract ends..the TSL list of deserters grows...and that's not because they are doing so well there . As u said "contracts are enforceable by the court of the law". U actually think Fnatic is dumb enough to try to contract a player who already is under a contract? or would they try to contract him after his current contract expires? U are to protective of Lee...and see fnatic as a dumb team that risks it's reputation&money to "prematurely sign a player"...witch i think is not the case
If that is the case why didn't fnatic wait for the contract to expire and than contact Coach lee through the proper channels ?
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Yeah. Here is my theory.
I think maybe Alive was approached by fnatic, but they backed away from him when they found out TSL had him on contract. Alive I think then tried to leave TSL to join fnatic by basically lying to both TSL and fnatic and telling everyone different things. Making Lee think that fnatic was poaching alive, and making fnatic think that alive left TSL for personal reasons.
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I would love to hear Alex's take on this.
I supported EG in the whole EG vs TSL thing. It seems like yet again coach lee has an issue, yet there we open talks the whole time. So I'd like to hear his take on the issue...
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On January 18 2012 14:46 KawaiiRice wrote:
Wow this keeps happening to TSL lol T_T;;
on another note.. ALIVE IS SO GOOD @.@ if this happened fnatic would be unstoppable :O
But you aren't on fnatic anymore. thus IMPOSSIBRU
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On January 18 2012 17:44 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:02 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:57 lavit2099 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:52 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:49 lavit2099 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:47 VirgilSC2 wrote:This certainly puts an interesting twist on things. I'm inclined to believe it somewhat at this point, seeing as most of my information came from close to TSL and could therefore be biased, however this sounds like a much larger problem than a misunderstanding. Crow tastes pretty good, huh? I don't see your point, it's not like Fnatics article clears any of this up at all, it simply states their side of the story. I'm still more inclined to still believe the TSL side of this over the Fnatic. However, I have noticed that you seem to have some problem with me. Naw, it's nothing personal. It's your blind devotion to TSL and the attitude you display about how they can't seem to do wrong and they're being attacked by everyone. It's the very fact you're more inclined to still believe the TSL side of this, while you just said a moment ago how you were inclined to believe what Fnatic said and agreed that your information "could therefore be biased." Considering that I have a much closer relationship with TSL than I do Fnatic it's really not that hard to understand. Fnatic's press release leaves a lot of loose ends and half answered questions but I'm also willing to take Fnatic at their word that they haven't signed aLive to a contract simply because Fnatic is a professional organization and they would be crazy to say that and it not be truthful. On January 18 2012 16:55 Longshank wrote:Looks like Virgil wasn't in the know after all. I don't even know why I bother. Hey Virgil, I just wanted to say that I appreciate the updates. I applaud you for being candid and level-headed. We don't have a lot of close ties with the Korean SC2 scene anymore especially since Milkis left. Ignore the haters - they are the vocal minority. Comments such as "Crow tastes pretty good, huh?" are immature and don't add to the discussion. With all the hate-mongering going on in SC2 lately, just know that you are doing this community a good service.
I wouldn't call myself level-headed when it comes to issues regarding TSL and Coach Lee. However, I do my best to keep things entertaining while at the same time not spilling anything that can't be found looking in the right places.
I also wouldn't compare myself to Milkis in the slightest, he was much more in tune with the Korean scene than I am, especially on the fact that he is fluent in Korean and I can barely understand even the simplest bits.
On January 18 2012 17:44 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:02 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 18 2012 16:55 Longshank wrote:Looks like Virgil wasn't in the know after all. I don't even know why I bother. No please continue, it's entertaining to read your gossip from time to time. It's just that it doesn't look good when you still go for your second hand sources when ToD who by all reasons would know a shit ton more than you about this case told you wrong, even suggesting he probably wasn't in the loop. That's pretty damn arrogant.
My comment suggesting ToD wasn't in the loop was completely uncalled for, I agree. However, in most cases my sources are not second hand. I believe this instance stems from the fact that ToD has close ties with one side of the case, while my information came from the other party. Sorry ToD, I really do respect you as a player, and don't take anything I said the wrong way, no matter how this situation turns out it won't change how I feel about Fnatic's players.
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On January 18 2012 17:49 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:47 ReboundEU wrote:On January 18 2012 17:41 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:35 ReboundEU wrote:On January 18 2012 17:33 Sawamura wrote:On January 18 2012 17:31 ReboundEU wrote:
I bet if his players would have girlfriends he would make an article about them wanting to steal the players Have you a coach team before in your life ? A professional one that is ? I bet you don't and yet you are criticising as though you can do a better job for the team . U don't need to coach a team to see how exagerated and premature his statements are....with no backend to it or even trying to shed light on the situation BEFORE starting to flame other teams. Tell me why so many players have a tendancy to leave TSL if this Coach has so much experience in this field witch i don't deny. I dunno any team that has had so many controversial player desertations in SC2...tell me 1 please.... if there isn't any then anyone could assume something is wrong with TSL in general... U hear a rumor (that might be right or wrong) and start crying before even getting your facts down...yea..pro work bro The fact is you are only picking on him on the basis that "Premature statements " it's like you have a personal vendetta against him . It's possible that Alive was approach back door and as a coach you are of course will do what ever you can to see to save your players and remedy the situation at hand .Even if it means accusing other teams of doing so , Why would Coach lee even mention about the translator and this back door dealing if it hadn't know about it . You think he would make up all of this dealing by him self and be called a paranoid ? . I don't see a reason why the coach assumptions should be criticised for .Alone and Tsl had a contract , contracts are enforceable by the court of the law , you breach the contract , the players are going to have suffer consequences for it . I have no personal vendeta as long as he comes down with valid facts...i see no facts in what he said + noone can contract alive as long as his current contract is up..that is a fact. The only possibility would be they talked with him to offer a fnatic spot after his contract ends..and that is 100% legal...why so much QQ? It's the players decision what he makes with his life after the contract expires. If he joins fnatic after the contract ends..the TSL list of deserters grows...and that's not because they are doing so well there . As u said "contracts are enforceable by the court of the law". U actually think Fnatic is dumb enough to try to contract a player who already is under a contract? or would they try to contract him after his current contract expires? U are to protective of Lee...and see fnatic as a dumb team that risks it's reputation&money to "prematurely sign a player"...witch i think is not the case If that is the case why didn't fnatic wait for the contract to expire and than contact Coach lee through the proper channels ?
Who said they accuired aLive? did u even read the article?
Fnatic quote: "However, Fnatic announced in an official statement that Alive had not in fact joined their team"
So they didn't contract anyone from TSL
U could consider that fnatic is lying in their statements...but has Lee stated anywere in his article that he talked with Fnatic management team about the issue? to see if it's right or a rumor? And if it's a rumor..why did it appear? Even if fnatic didn't contact them, when an issue like this pops up..he should be the one trying to clarrify...because there's a big chance this roumor is wrong and fnatic doesn't know about it. So he should clear things with them before startinf flames on them and their image as an international team, wouldn't u think so?
Unprofessional premature flaming is unprofessional....even if u have 100 years experience....what he does is unprofessional and disgracefull towards foreign teams. Get your facts down before starting flame wars and risking a team's image in the process.
If u have proof that someone contacted your player...say it. Also say what the discussion was about.
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EPT
