Los Angeles, January 16th, 2012 - Today, Infinity Seven is proud to announce the addition of Richard "Thundertoss" Johnson to its team as StarCraft 2 coach.
Thundertoss' responsibilities will entail the coaching of Infinity Seven's rising StarCraft 2 team players, such as CrazyMoviNG, Maker, jEcho, Mentalist, as well as Insur and Pyre from the new youth team division.
"Having known Richard for a while now, it is with great pleasure that I welcome him to the Infinity Seven family. I have always been in awe of his passion for StarCraft 2 and the scene in general. Richard's addition to our organization further adds to our continued growth and I look forward to working with him and our players.”
- Zhang "zemotion" Jingna, Team Owner, Infinity Seven
"I've always respected Infinity Seven and considered them a team with great potential and fantastic management. I'm excited to start putting all my skills to use and just based on the attitude of the team and the improvements we've already made in this short time, I predict some impressive performances as we strive to make it to the top." - Richard "Thundertoss" Johnson, Coach, Infinity Seven
We sat down with Thundertoss to ask him a couple of questions about himself, the game and the scene in general.
What will your responsibilities be as coach?
I will be more of a Korean style coach, much different than what you see streamers doing with lower level players. This means I'll be going over things much more in depth (obviously professional players have a solid grasp on the basics). I'll be going over all aspects of everyone's playstyle and looking to improve their matchups, their micro, their decision making, etc... while also working on improving their mental game.
Furthermore, I'll also be helping them prepare for upcoming series in tournaments such as GSL's Code A and helping them develop strategies for the specific maps, matchups and opponents.
In a nutshell, I'll be doing everything, similar to the Korean teams. However, in the larger Korean teams, one coach is dedicated to studying the opponent and the other is dedicated on the individual player to improve his gameplay.
Why did you choose Infinity Seven and where do you hope to see this team going?
I actually scouted Infinity Seven before they scouted me. I had been looking to put together a new team to rival the current foreigner powerhouses. Infinity Seven is one of the only teams that has players in Code A that hasn't bought Korean players or is majorly funded Korean team.
But beyond the potential I saw in the players, I was really impressed by the management and Jingna. I think this team's priorities are more aligned with mine than that of other larger and more corporate teams.
I see this team having multiple members competing in the GSL, if not this season, then the next. Furthermore, I predict that Infinity Seven will do very well at this year's MLG stops.
How do you see the meta game changing into this new year? What do you expect to start seeing in terms of strategies?
Well there are number of predictions I've made a while ago about some new things I think people will eventually figure out, such as using hallucinations to force incorrect tech responses or abusing an opponent's lack of early detection.
I think we might see some of the Brood War strategies that took years to be fixed out, since we are starting to see more and more Brood War pros switching over. For example, a Protoss Bisu build with blink Stalkers and Dark Templars against Zerg or a Phoenix and Dark Templar style we've seen in PvP a few times.
Since we've already seen some of the Hellion drop play against fast expand builds in the GSL that draw from Vulture play in Brood War, perhaps someone will show us some fantasy-eque Mech play vs Protoss.
Oh and of course, my favorite one to cast; Zergs learning how to zone and delay better with burrowed Banelings (maybe we'll even see some ravens built!).
Infinity Seven is one of the most promising new Esports brands from North America. In the short timespan since its formation, iS has already made great strides towards establishing itself as a recognizable name in the professional gaming industry. The team has seen its players participate in multiple Major League Gaming events, achieve top placements in numerous ZOTAC Cups and Playhem Opens, and qualify for the Intel Extreme Masters Global Challenge in New York City and Global StarCraft League in Seoul, Korea.
Infinity Seven strives to continually push the limits of what it means to be a driven, competitive, and goal-oriented team. Proudly sponsored by companies such as SteelSeries, deviantART, and ScienceWerk, iS will only serve to further impress its fans by continuing to grow, and remaining determined to become the best that it can be.
Bad decision from my point of view, we played Infinity-Seven in the NASL qualifier and jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat. jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
I wish you good luck Thundertoss, I hope they are nicer to you!
Infinity Seven has been a very competitive team since Season 2. Jingna does really well at building her team. Thundertoss will help out so much. Best of Luck!
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: Bad decision from my point of view, we played Infinity-Seven in the NASL qualifier and jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat. jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
I wish you good luck Thundertoss, I hope they are nicer to you!
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
Ok, really? #_# Obviously we have 'freedom of speech,' but expressing freedom of speech has nothing to do with manners.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
Ok, really? #_# Obviously we have 'freedom of speech,' but expressing freedom of speech has nothing to do with manners.
Uhm so you're saying they can't talk within themselves about other players? It's their private chat, they shouldn't have to worry if they're manner or not.
Congrats to iS and TT, excited to see what's next.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
Ok, really? #_# Obviously we have 'freedom of speech,' but expressing freedom of speech has nothing to do with manners.
Uhm so you're saying they can't talk within themselves about other players? It's their private chat, they shouldn't have to worry if they're manner or not.
Congrats to iS and TT, excited to see what's next.
What are you talking about. Being bad manner is being bad manner, regardless of who you say it to, whether it's publicly or privately. If you call someone an asshole to their face, it's bad manner just the same as if you do it behind their back.
I'm not saying they can't talk within themselves, when did I say that? I just said that it's bm regardless. I have no opinion on it, nor do I know any of the players. I also don't really care if they bm others personally, they can do whatever they want in private -- but it doesn't change the fact that it IS bm...
You don't have to read too much into it.
No need to derail the thread, congrats Thundertoss and iS!
So their next step would to be opening a team house. I don't see an extreme need for a coach unless you are doing something like the Korean's and getting a house.
Still great for Thundertoss! I've been watching GM KOTH for sometime now and always enjoy the games
On January 17 2012 03:54 IntoTheBush wrote: So their next step would to be opening a team house. I don't see an extreme need for a coach unless you are doing something like the Korean's and getting a house.
Still great for Thundertoss! I've been watching GM KOTH for sometime now and always enjoy the games
Aren't there several iS members in Socal or am I totally wrong on that?
On January 17 2012 03:54 IntoTheBush wrote: So their next step would to be opening a team house. I don't see an extreme need for a coach unless you are doing something like the Korean's and getting a house.
Still great for Thundertoss! I've been watching GM KOTH for sometime now and always enjoy the games
Aren't there several iS members in Socal or am I totally wrong on that?
some of their b-teamers are in socal, don't think any of their a-teamers are
On January 17 2012 03:54 IntoTheBush wrote: So their next step would to be opening a team house. I don't see an extreme need for a coach unless you are doing something like the Korean's and getting a house.
Still great for Thundertoss! I've been watching GM KOTH for sometime now and always enjoy the games
A coach can you help you online almost as much as offline right?
I always thought that the main advantage of the teamhouse would be to have a group of pros together practicing and motivating each other, while being able to quickly talk strategy. A coach is more looking for weaknesses, places to improve, and helping set schedules if that's necessary.
Though it would be awesome if iS had a teamhouse, I hope that this year more teams start to create them in style of the Korean model!
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
Lol... What are you talking about?
No shit we can say whatever we want. That doesn't mean we should nor should we expect to be held in high regard if we do. If I go around calling everyone a niggerfaggot every single rational human being will think I'm a douchebag, and for good reason. This is pretty basic logic...
if you check out the infinity seven website, they say that mentalist is in both iS and rising star.
On January 11 2012 20:35 iS.zemotion wrote: Hi guys,
Just to clear up the confusion, iS has an agreement with RS, Mentalist did not leave the team and will still be representing iS in all non-Korean tournaments.
On January 11 2012 20:35 iS.zemotion wrote: Hi guys,
Just to clear up the confusion, iS has an agreement with RS, Mentalist did not leave the team and will still be representing iS in all non-Korean tournaments.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
What do American amendments have to do with the internet?
gl iS. Can't say I've followed this guy before, but maybe I'll have to take a look.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
What do American amendments have to do with the internet?
because even though it doesn't influence law elsewhere in the world, American amendments are the ideal the rest of the world should strive for
i hope vVv (and other NA teams) start seriously considering adding coaches. sixjax had artosis but then disbanded and itsgosu has gretorp but not many other teams have really pushed to develop that part of their roster. : (
On January 17 2012 03:54 IntoTheBush wrote: So their next step would to be opening a team house. I don't see an extreme need for a coach unless you are doing something like the Korean's and getting a house.
Still great for Thundertoss! I've been watching GM KOTH for sometime now and always enjoy the games
I don't see how needing or not needing a coach has anything to do with a team house. I can teach somebody how to play SC2 just as well over Skype as I can in person, assuming that person is willing to listen and wants to get better. If either of those aren't the case, then you have an entirely different problem than location.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Might want to get your facts straight before you start talking, as i explained to you, i was frustrated that the very agressive attack was handled so well and CM still almost died. i never said your team was garbage or your players sucked, i said protoss (as in the race) was gay. Please dont act like i got caught talking shit, I was the one streaming, do you really think i would have said anything that needed to stay private? what a joke
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Might want to get your facts straight before you start talking, as i explained to you, i was frustrated that the very agressive attack was handled so well and CM still almost died. i never said your team was garbage or your players sucked, i said protoss (as in the race) was gay. Please dont act like i got caught talking shit, I was the one streaming, do you really think i would have said anything that needed to stay private? what a joke
Fade sounds like a sore loser trying to cause drama in an unrelated post.
Congrats to THundertoss and iS. I hope this leads to more hype/marketing of iS. It seems to be a pretty underrated team compared to the caliber of their players!
I think it's great that we're beginning to see more and more beyond just the players of the SC2 scene. With coaches like Thundertoss releasing interviews, I'm looking forward to 2012.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
What do American amendments have to do with the internet?
because even though it doesn't influence law elsewhere in the world, American amendments are the ideal the rest of the world should strive for
please god, let this guy not be an american. not only does the U.S. constitution not apply to the rest of the world, but it also doesnt even apply here. the first amendment prevents the _government_ from restricting speech, it has no application to private people restricting other private people's speech.
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
On January 18 2012 04:36 thundertoss wrote: Thanks Andre. We are now in a very select group of NA team coaches ^_^
im an NA team coach sort of
i'll consider you as part of our select group. I didn't say we were the only ones ^_^ you've turned kiwi/light into a fearsome team (as evidenced by the semi dramatic nastl match ; p )
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
Because the coach doesn't necessarily have to be better at understanding strategies etc than the players. And being good at executing strategies doesn't necessarily mean you have a good understanding of strategies either, and so on.
In reality, coaching(in any sport) tend to be based on dialog. And there is no simple formula for finding out who will be an amazing coach.
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
I'll answer with some quick points since I get it a lot. Obviously it's a valid question since most people think that the only way to learn is to play and hence another reason why there aren't many coaches.
First of all, my understanding is much higher than what my ladder ranking is going to show. That holds true for quiet a few people. Take day9 for instance who has made it known that when he had time to commit to playing he had multiple gm accounts. Now that he doesn't have time to play it would take him a while to get there. Your ability to play is you matching your mechanics with your game knowledge and decision making. The reflection of that ability is your ladder ranking/ tournament performances. However it is important to note that if you don't have much time to ladder or time to focus on laddering (aka only have free time when you're already tired or something) your rank won't really be a true rank. Without a large enough sample set (aka lots of games) its hard to say where someone really belongs. That's why someone like MC can place into platinum (homestory cup). Obviously for him he can quickly continue to win and reach a higher MMR but he's also a player first. That means he's trained his mechanics as well as his knowledge. Someone in my position has sacrificed part of that. I am not a player first. My knowledge is derived from analyzing a large sample set. Think of it as trading mechanics for broader knowledge. The other important part of this is the idea that you can't learn without playing. That's not true for this. While it is true that watching NBA games isn't going to make you good at 3 pointers or allow you to dunk it doesn't mean that someone who watches games rather than playing is a bad coach. In fact most nba coaches will just watch games, study players, and can't dunk. Obviously I can elaborate on this but the point is that you don't have to be able to dunk to coach basketball. I'm using my knowledge to help coach, not my mechanics.
2nd analogy: Before anybody becomes a surgeon, they study a long, long time from books. Books that describe where are the organs are and how they function. What medicines affect what. They can tell you where to cut for a surgery but they won't keep your hand steady. I am that book. You might make arguments like "Well I bet you can't write that book without actually doing a surgery", but that would be wrong. Yes the surgery has to be done but no one surgeon who has spent the time to be the very best (and therefore qualified to write a section) can write the entire book. To write the book you get a writer, you have him take down everything from those qualified experts, and you put it all together. The Top 200 KOTH, GSL, and the countless games I've observed, analyzed and casted, are me (the writer) putting together all the knowledge in one place (my mind/ the book). And thus, despite my lack of ladder games and therefore non gm account, I am still completely qualified to help even the very top echelon of players improve.
So I guess that wasn't as short as I thought it would be but I could certainly explain more.
TL:DR - I've scarified mechanics and ladder time for learning/analyzing time. I learn from watching the best. Someone like day9 still has a very strong understanding of the game even if he doesn't have time to play it at the level of his knowledge. While most sub-gm rated players would not be qualified for this position, most have not spent the time LEARNING the game that I have. Even Code-S players improve by going back and WATCHING their games with help from coaches like Cella (not code S). Obviously they can't JUST watch because SC is not chess it has a physical/mechanics component as well.
^afterthought. Think of it like chess. You don't need to move the pieces to understand/be good. SC is more because its real time and has mechanics, but as I am not a player I don't need mechanics.( you can't really teach speed anyhow...)
Hope that answers your question. I know a lot of other people were probably wondering the same thing. And don't worry it's not insulting to me. There's very little way of you knowing my qualifications unless you've gotten coached by me or have talked to the players I've helped.
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
Because the coach doesn't necessarily have to be better at understanding strategies etc than the players. And being good at executing strategies doesn't necessarily mean you have a good understanding of strategies either, and so on.
In reality, coaching(in any sport) tend to be based on dialog. And there is no simple formula for finding out who will be an amazing coach.
Obviously I was taking time to write my own response and didn't see yours. I agree with you.
Luckily I am quite adept at understanding strategies. It is part of what I teach occasionally even though the more important part is understanding the logic behind strategies and helping players with that understanding such that they are able to make the correct decisions in any situation. But yes. I learn from players as much as they learn from me. Just like the current GSL players are learning from each other.
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
I'll answer with some quick points since I get it a lot. Obviously it's a valid question since most people think that the only way to learn is to play and hence another reason why there aren't many coaches.
First of all, my understanding is much higher than what my ladder ranking is going to show. That holds true for quiet a few people. Take day9 for instance who has made it known that when he had time to commit to playing he had multiple gm accounts. Now that he doesn't have time to play it would take him a while to get there. Your ability to play is you matching your mechanics with your game knowledge and decision making. The reflection of that ability is your ladder ranking/ tournament performances. However it is important to note that if you don't have much time to ladder or time to focus on laddering (aka only have free time when you're already tired or something) your rank won't really be a true rank. Without a large enough sample set (aka lots of games) its hard to say where someone really belongs. That's why someone like MC can place into platinum (homestory cup). Obviously for him he can quickly continue to win and reach a higher MMR but he's also a player first. That means he's trained his mechanics as well as his knowledge. Someone in my position has sacrificed part of that. I am not a player first. My knowledge is derived from analyzing a large sample set. Think of it as trading mechanics for broader knowledge. The other important part of this is the idea that you can't learn without playing. That's not true for this. While it is true that watching NBA games isn't going to make you good at 3 pointers or allow you to dunk it doesn't mean that someone who watches games rather than playing is a bad coach. In fact most nba coaches will just watch games, study players, and can't dunk. Obviously I can elaborate on this but the point is that you don't have to be able to dunk to coach basketball. I'm using my knowledge to help coach, not my mechanics.
2nd analogy: Before anybody becomes a surgeon, they study a long, long time from books. Books that describe where are the organs are and how they function. What medicines affect what. They can tell you where to cut for a surgery but they won't keep your hand steady. I am that book. You might make arguments like "Well I bet you can't write that book without actually doing a surgery", but that would be wrong. Yes the surgery has to be done but no one surgeon who has spent the time to be the very best (and therefore qualified to write a section) can write the entire book. To write the book you get a writer, you have him take down everything from those qualified experts, and you put it all together. The Top 200 KOTH, GSL, and the countless games I've observed, analyzed and casted, are me (the writer) putting together all the knowledge in one place (my mind/ the book). And thus, despite my lack of ladder games and therefore non gm account, I am still completely qualified to help even the very top echelon of players improve.
So I guess that wasn't as short as I thought it would be but I could certainly explain more.
TL:DR - I've scarified mechanics and ladder time for learning/analyzing time. I learn from watching the best. Someone like day9 still has a very strong understanding of the game even if he doesn't have time to play it at the level of his knowledge. While most sub-gm rated players would not be qualified for this position, most have not spent the time LEARNING the game that I have. Even Code-S players improve by going back and WATCHING their games with help from coaches like Cella (not code S). Obviously they can't JUST watch because SC is not chess it has a physical/mechanics component as well.
^afterthought. Think of it like chess. You don't need to move the pieces to understand/be good. SC is more because its real time and has mechanics, but as I am not a player I don't need mechanics.( you can't really teach speed anyhow...)
Hope that answers your question. I know a lot of other people were probably wondering the same thing. And don't worry it's not insulting to me. There's very little way of you knowing my qualifications unless you've gotten coached by me or have talked to the players I've helped.
although i dont necessarily agree with all your points, you certainly have shown a lot of dedication to the scene and helping others improve. and you have also put a lot of thought into it. i hope the best for you and the team. please keep koth going. its on my second screen while i do other stuff. =)
On January 18 2012 13:09 dAPhREAk wrote: ascend and thundertoss' koth top 200 is awesome.
however, i dont understand why teams are picking up no-name players and making them coaches. this team, and previously team legion with destructive.
what exactly do coaches do that doesnt require them to be extremely good at the game? isnt crazymoving and jecho on a level fifteen floors above thundertoss?
I believe all those things are addressed in the interview. You really should read it. ^_^
i didnt intend for this to be aggressive or insulting (and i did read the interview). what i am wondering is what you have to offer to better players? i looked at your record and i dont even see that you have ever played a 1v1 game on ladder (assuming its you). most people argue that diamond and below (even masters and low gm players) should not be allowed in the strategy section, yet teams are picking up such players as coaches. what gives?
i have watched koth 200 since it started and i love your contribution to the community, but the recent trend of teams picking up non-1v1 players as coaches is just disturbing to me. teams need to pick up top players as coaches or there will never be any improvement.
as i write this i realize it can easily be taken as insulting, so i will just end with congratulations to you, i am glad at your success and hope you continue with the koth 200, which i love.
I'll answer with some quick points since I get it a lot. Obviously it's a valid question since most people think that the only way to learn is to play and hence another reason why there aren't many coaches.
First of all, my understanding is much higher than what my ladder ranking is going to show. That holds true for quiet a few people. Take day9 for instance who has made it known that when he had time to commit to playing he had multiple gm accounts. Now that he doesn't have time to play it would take him a while to get there. Your ability to play is you matching your mechanics with your game knowledge and decision making. The reflection of that ability is your ladder ranking/ tournament performances. However it is important to note that if you don't have much time to ladder or time to focus on laddering (aka only have free time when you're already tired or something) your rank won't really be a true rank. Without a large enough sample set (aka lots of games) its hard to say where someone really belongs. That's why someone like MC can place into platinum (homestory cup). Obviously for him he can quickly continue to win and reach a higher MMR but he's also a player first. That means he's trained his mechanics as well as his knowledge. Someone in my position has sacrificed part of that. I am not a player first. My knowledge is derived from analyzing a large sample set. Think of it as trading mechanics for broader knowledge. The other important part of this is the idea that you can't learn without playing. That's not true for this. While it is true that watching NBA games isn't going to make you good at 3 pointers or allow you to dunk it doesn't mean that someone who watches games rather than playing is a bad coach. In fact most nba coaches will just watch games, study players, and can't dunk. Obviously I can elaborate on this but the point is that you don't have to be able to dunk to coach basketball. I'm using my knowledge to help coach, not my mechanics.
2nd analogy: Before anybody becomes a surgeon, they study a long, long time from books. Books that describe where are the organs are and how they function. What medicines affect what. They can tell you where to cut for a surgery but they won't keep your hand steady. I am that book. You might make arguments like "Well I bet you can't write that book without actually doing a surgery", but that would be wrong. Yes the surgery has to be done but no one surgeon who has spent the time to be the very best (and therefore qualified to write a section) can write the entire book. To write the book you get a writer, you have him take down everything from those qualified experts, and you put it all together. The Top 200 KOTH, GSL, and the countless games I've observed, analyzed and casted, are me (the writer) putting together all the knowledge in one place (my mind/ the book). And thus, despite my lack of ladder games and therefore non gm account, I am still completely qualified to help even the very top echelon of players improve.
So I guess that wasn't as short as I thought it would be but I could certainly explain more.
TL:DR - I've scarified mechanics and ladder time for learning/analyzing time. I learn from watching the best. Someone like day9 still has a very strong understanding of the game even if he doesn't have time to play it at the level of his knowledge. While most sub-gm rated players would not be qualified for this position, most have not spent the time LEARNING the game that I have. Even Code-S players improve by going back and WATCHING their games with help from coaches like Cella (not code S). Obviously they can't JUST watch because SC is not chess it has a physical/mechanics component as well.
^afterthought. Think of it like chess. You don't need to move the pieces to understand/be good. SC is more because its real time and has mechanics, but as I am not a player I don't need mechanics.( you can't really teach speed anyhow...)
Hope that answers your question. I know a lot of other people were probably wondering the same thing. And don't worry it's not insulting to me. There's very little way of you knowing my qualifications unless you've gotten coached by me or have talked to the players I've helped.
although i dont necessarily agree with all your points, you certainly have shown a lot of dedication to the scene and helping others improve. and you have also put a lot of thought into it. i hope the best for you and the team. please keep koth going. its on my second screen while i do other stuff. =)
Well I hope the argument made some sense to you. I appreciate you watching the KOTH. I will keep it going as long as people keep playing it ^_^
ps. Even if you don't agree with all my points the really nice thing is that you don't have to take my word for it. I had multiple teams (and not small time teams, teams with players who will be competing in gsl) offering me a coaching position after hearing from their players how helpful I was at improving their play. You'll also now be able to see my abilities reflected by the improvements of iS players.
personally i hope you could do a good job once you become a coach simply because you will be the first of this kind and other team will be looking at iS result in order to decided if they really need a coach or not.
I would like to know how are you planning to overcome the skill differences between you and your player in order to gain their respect and listen to you. I have a hard time believe a Korean GM will ever take advice from a diamond 2v2 guy on NA. It is true that you might have casted a lot of games and has been hanging out with a lot of pros in the past but to actually talk to pros about strategy and helping them improve does require a certain level in 1v1 skill. Last time i saw you skype with Col.Minigun while he laddering, you still give him all the wrong suggestion on how to play and after minigun lose you just keep responding 'i dont know i dont know'...
On January 18 2012 16:06 NB wrote: personally i hope you could do a good job once you become a coach simply because you will be the first of this kind and other team will be looking at iS result in order to decided if they really need a coach or not.
I would like to know how are you planning to overcome the skill differences between you and your player in order to gain their respect and listen to you. I have a hard time believe a Korean GM will ever take advice from a diamond 2v2 guy on NA. It is true that you might have casted a lot of games and has been hanging out with a lot of pros in the past but to actually talk to pros about strategy and helping them improve does require a certain level in 1v1 skill. Last time i saw you skype with Col.Minigun while he laddering, you still give him all the wrong suggestion on how to play and after minigun lose you just keep responding 'i dont know i dont know'...
There are many ways to earn respect. And being good at making people listen to you is another of the hundreds of things that are more important for a coach than a player. Just like being open to advice is important in all sports for players with access to advice that makes them better.
Speaking in general of course since I don't know anything about thundertoss coaching potential
On January 18 2012 16:06 NB wrote: personally i hope you could do a good job once you become a coach simply because you will be the first of this kind and other team will be looking at iS result in order to decided if they really need a coach or not.
I would like to know how are you planning to overcome the skill differences between you and your player in order to gain their respect and listen to you. I have a hard time believe a Korean GM will ever take advice from a diamond 2v2 guy on NA. It is true that you might have casted a lot of games and has been hanging out with a lot of pros in the past but to actually talk to pros about strategy and helping them improve does require a certain level in 1v1 skill. Last time i saw you skype with Col.Minigun while he laddering, you still give him all the wrong suggestion on how to play and after minigun lose you just keep responding 'i dont know i dont know'...
So to answer you're question I'll tell you that while there is a skill gap, the players are the ones asking me for information and after I give an answer with an explanation they'll say "ahh yes.. that makes sense... let me try it in this next game" and then "yes that worked out much better".
How would I even get this position if players didn't respect me? O.o I can show you how much I improved GM players in just a few hours of coaching. And i've already talked about the difference between mechanical skill and game knowledge. Do you think I was accepted on to a team like iS without a trial period? O.o baffling.
Last time you saw me on skype with minigun we were experimenting with an entirely new build/timing that I hadn't seen anyone do. The things i have worked on with minigun is much less involved than coaching for iS. If there was such a massive gap then minigun would already know the build based on the composition and not have to listen to me after I told him the goal of the timing attack.
This isn't the first time a team has hired a coach that could not play the game at a high level. Team3D, during what could be called a down swing, hired Bootman (writer for GotFrag, I believe) as their coach. Bootman was probably Cal-M skill level. He was a darn fine strategist though. I don't know what Thundertoss brings to the table, but this wouldn't be the first time a team hired a coach that played at a low level.
On January 18 2012 17:16 jenzebubble wrote: This isn't the first time a team has hired a coach that could not play the game at a high level. Team3D, during what could be called a down swing, hired Bootman (writer for GotFrag, I believe) as their coach. Bootman was probably Cal-M skill level. He was a darn fine strategist though. I don't know what Thundertoss brings to the table, but this wouldn't be the first time a team hired a coach that played at a low level.
It's not strange at all since there are literally thousands of things a good player isn't necessarily aware or have a perfect understanding of, which is why having coaches tend to be standard in sports.
Can take some random things that a person from the outside can potentially be a lot better at than a certain player.
-Relevant math. -How to improve. (huge category) -Sub category: Easiest way to improve. (huge category) -Sub category: Fastest way to improve. (huge category) And so on.
The outside person doesn't have to be better than the player at everything, just at any somewhat important area.
To illustrate one of thousands of possibilities. A very good chess player looks at strategical situation a specific sc2 player have a hard time understanding. edit for example: Perhaps the situation is the result of an earlier "fork", perhaps there is even a game ending fork the coached player can use in the "strategically difficult situation". Etc
I think the best point made was that there was a trial period for Thundertoss with iS and the players all felt they would benefit from bringing him aboard fulltime.
On January 18 2012 16:06 NB wrote: personally i hope you could do a good job once you become a coach simply because you will be the first of this kind and other team will be looking at iS result in order to decided if they really need a coach or not.
I would like to know how are you planning to overcome the skill differences between you and your player in order to gain their respect and listen to you. I have a hard time believe a Korean GM will ever take advice from a diamond 2v2 guy on NA. It is true that you might have casted a lot of games and has been hanging out with a lot of pros in the past but to actually talk to pros about strategy and helping them improve does require a certain level in 1v1 skill. Last time i saw you skype with Col.Minigun while he laddering, you still give him all the wrong suggestion on how to play and after minigun lose you just keep responding 'i dont know i dont know'...
So to answer you're question I'll tell you that while there is a skill gap, the players are the ones asking me for information and after I give an answer with an explanation they'll say "ahh yes.. that makes sense... let me try it in this next game" and then "yes that worked out much better".
How would I even get this position if players didn't respect me? O.o I can show you how much I improved GM players in just a few hours of coaching. And i've already talked about the difference between mechanical skill and game knowledge. Do you think I was accepted on to a team like iS without a trial period? O.o baffling.
Last time you saw me on skype with minigun we were experimenting with an entirely new build/timing that I hadn't seen anyone do. The things i have worked on with minigun is much less involved than coaching for iS. If there was such a massive gap then minigun would already know the build based on the composition and not have to listen to me after I told him the goal of the timing attack.
Let the results speak for itself, don't listen to haters... IMO respect is the MOST necessary component to being a coach, and it's pretty evident that you have it, so no worries.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho & Maker talked smack about almost all clanmembers and our clan itself without any reason (jEcho for the mostpart). They did this because they didint think anyone would see it because they wrote all the shittalking in their private team chat
What's wrong if it's in the private team chat? Why would anyone bother with being politically correct to teammates.
On January 17 2012 02:40 Fade1 wrote: jEcho streamed though and thats how we saw the bad manners.
It's not bad manner if he didn't say it in front of you.
I think its quite sad if they sit and say our players are gay and retarded and saying our team is shit and were so fucking bad while streaming.
Freedom of Speech is part of our First Amendment. They can express their thoughts about anyone. As long as they are not expressing those comments during games, it should not be considered bad manner.
Ok, really? #_# Obviously we have 'freedom of speech,' but expressing freedom of speech has nothing to do with manners.
Uhm so you're saying they can't talk within themselves about other players? It's their private chat, they shouldn't have to worry if they're manner or not.
Congrats to iS and TT, excited to see what's next.
Sorry they can talk about them. But if they call them gay and retarded: The is neither politically correct nor shows the respect that you should have for your opponents in competition.
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