EPTTL Map Contest Voting! - Page 9
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~Maverick~
United States234 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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Mithridates
United States446 Posts
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spartanov
Canada8 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On December 16 2011 12:54 Mithridates wrote: Voting for beach textures alone Should probably vote for more then just that reason lol  ! | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
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Louis8k8
Canada285 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:10 ~Maverick~ wrote: I don't see what so special about Ohana other than that its aesthetically pleasing. Cloud kingdom has my vote! Ohana has a huge open field in the middle. Which is slightly Z favoured against T and P. | ||
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Malinka28039
Spain1 Post
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On December 17 2011 02:17 Gfire wrote: My favorites are Lagoon and Ohana, but I absolutely despise pathable water. How can you despise pathable water? That's what makes beach maps that much more unique. I can see people being against building things in the water including myself, for the sake of keeping the map pretty, but pathable water (where the water goes up to your waist) is pretty hot. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
Map Ranks: 7th: Twilight Peaks 6th: Sanctuary 5th: Burning Alter When spectating starcraft 2 games, many, many people want the games to be sweet long macro games with lots of back and forth action. For this to happen the map needs to be able to have at least a 3rd base in a reasonably defendable spot. If it's too far away Zergs will dominate as Protoss and Terran will have a harder time securing a 3rd. There are for sure 2 maps and to a lesser extent 3 of the 7 maps that grabbing a 3rd is going to be extremely difficult. These maps are Burning Alter, Twilight Peaks and to a lesser extent Sanctuary. Burning Alter, to grab a 3rd will spread you out very thin. You open up so many more attack paths and if the rocks get taken down it's even more of a death trap to hold 3 bases. Not only do you have to spread yourself out thin, but with those cliffs between the main & the 3rd, it makes it that much harder to hold a 3rd if you are even able to get it in the first place. Twilight Peaks, I haven't watched all the replays on it, but I'd be willing to wager most of them will never get off more then 2 base. If you thought holding a 3rd on Burning Alter was hard, times that by 10 and bam, you've got twilight peaks. Yes, 1 and 2 base games are fine, but when the map itself makes the 3rd soooo hard to get that we'll almost never see 3 base play which makes the map turn very stale. (Think PvZ on Dual Sight) Sanctuary is a little better but still very hard to hold. You can take the closer 3rd that hugs your main, but guess what, it's completely in the open. You could then take the high ground 3rd, yet that's farther away and thus your army as a whole will have to be spread out thinner. With these reasons I believe Burning Alter, Twilight Peaks & Sancutary should not win. Map Rank: 4th Haven Lagoon So many people seem to enjoy Haven's Lagoon. It was the ugly duckling of the bunch and I'm sure everybody wants to root for it. The major problem with this map is the left side of the map. The 2 blue bases at the 8 & 10 positions and the Gold base at the 9 position. They will never get used unless it's a hidden base and/or one player is extremely far ahead. You will never see a 5 base vs 5 base on this map. The Gold is just asking for a zerg to throw up a ninja hatchery there and guess what, if you move your forces to attack it, everything else will be completely vulnerable to counter attacks. You can pretty easily grabbed a 3rd base here which is nice, except with how close the 4th base is it makes it kinda of cluttered & clunky. What's really bad is a terran could planetary up the 4th spot and pretty much get a free 3rd. It feels when this map was designed there was only 8 bases total. He then wanted more bases and added in 4 more. (Gold, the 4ths & the one at the 3 o'clock position) So, between all the cluttered bases, the "free" 3rd by taking your 4th and the poor design of the west side of the map. I do not think Haven's Lagoon should win TLMC. Map Rank: 3rd Ohana Too many people love the beach theme. Everybody loved bel'shir beach even when it was first released and was completely imbalanced. Did people care? No, not really because it looked beautiful when played. The same goes here with Ohana, although it doesn't have as much of a problem as being imbalanced. Let's look at the map. Main, good. Natural, good. Third, good. Fourth, uhhh akward? So after you have your third and you want to grab a 4th, where do you go? To the middle of the map? Or expand in the opposite direction and go to the one that almost hugs your main? Well, if you go to the one hugging your main you then have a HUGE distance (the whole map) that you have to cover to protect your 3rd and 4th. If you don't choose that one, you then have to take the 4th which is in the dead middle of the map which is super close to your opponent's main base. My reason for disliking it appears to be the same reason NASL wanted it changed, they wanted the 3rd closer to the natural and the 4th closer to the 3rd which makes the expansion path not as weird. Also with how completely open the whole map outside your first 3 bases are, expect zerg to decimate because if you move out, you really have no chokes to hug, causing flanks & surrounds to be too strong. Map Rank: 2nd Korhal Compound I'm confused why this map is getting no love at all. The Main through 4th bases are probably one of the best expansions paths I've seen in a map. Not only are the 3rd and 4ths fairly easy to get, but they also open up many vulnerablities if you do end up taking them. You can easily punish players that take a too greedy third due to the lowground. When you take the 4th you have to worry about the highground right behind you. It's awesome though because as for main attack paths when you get a 4th you really only have to watch two places, yet it also there are tons of opportunities for harass. Harass = Good. I haven't talked much about watchtowers yet, but this map has the best xel'naga watchtower placement of all the maps. It shows just enough. Basically having vision of the ramps in the middle is great, it makes the middle of the map more dangerous to walk through, although it's also the fastest way to your opponent. You can take a slower way around the outer edges of the map though and you won't get spotted. Now when playing, do you just go down the ramps into the middle only to get spotted so they have time to prepare, or do you take the extra 20 seconds to walk around the outside of the map to get to your opponent out of watchtower range. If it weren't for another ESV map, this one should have easily gotten 1st place. Map Rank: 1st Cloud Kingdom Just look at this map and tell me if you've seen a map like it. There has not been a single map in sc2 that has had a layout with any similiarities that Cloud Kingdom has. Sure you could say well it's a main, easy to hold nat and a 3rd hugging the main, which is standard in just about every map. But the placement of the bases, the placement of the minerals and the attack paths to those bases make it interesting. You can easily take a natural on this map, yet with how the minerals are placed it opens it up to harass. As I already said, Harass is interesting, it's fun, people love to watch harass. The natural makes it easier to harass since the minerals have their back facing away from the main. Taking a 3rd, you expand away from your opponent, so everybody wins. (Terran could take the forward third if they wanted to, pfort it up and be in a great position too). Now, you expand away from your opponent, thus it's easier to defend your 3rd even though you now opened up many more attack paths. (Yet watch out, because remember how easy the natural could be harassed.) The 4th is fairly close to the 3rd, yet still super vulnerable. It's on low ground, there's high ground right behind it, yet, it's still far enough away from your opponent that you can grab it. The way the map is setup, high ground > low ground > High > low > high. It's crazy when you have to move around the map. You better have some flying units to get vision of the high ground, or you better take those watchtowers. A terran sieging up and attacking the 4th base leaves plenty of room for counter attacks or flanks. Yet with all the ramps it also brings a sense of security since you can forcefield the ramps, you can siege from the high ground. This map might be a tad bit dark but the overall look of it is just beautiful. The contrast of the orange & the blue is perfect. The base setup is safe enough that you can get a nice long macro game with lots of action. With all this said, Cloud Kingdom deserves to win because of how unique the map is as a whole. You will see great games on this map, you will see 1, 2, 3, 4 and up to 5 base play on this map. You will see lots of flanking, counter attacking, harass,all things that make watching sc2 as a spectator so much fun. Hell, I bet if push came to shove they could easily change Cloud Kingdom into Beach Kingdom if asethtics were that much of a problem. I could go on and on about all the maps more and why I like & dislike certain ones but I already feel I've typed enough. Again, take this feedback as you will. If you'd like me to explain more in depth on these maps please let me know. With all that said, Cloud Kingdom, take it home baby! | ||
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Kaiwa
Netherlands2209 Posts
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
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Sensator
Australia377 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On December 17 2011 04:35 SidianTheBard wrote: Map Rank: 2nd Korhal Compound I'm confused why this map is getting no love at all. The Main through 4th bases are probably one of the best expansions paths I've seen in a map. Not only are the 3rd and 4ths fairly easy to get, but they also open up many vulnerablities if you do end up taking them. You can easily punish players that take a too greedy third due to the lowground. When you take the 4th you have to worry about the highground right behind you. It's awesome though because as for main attack paths when you get a 4th you really only have to watch two places, yet it also there are tons of opportunities for harass. Harass = Good. I haven't talked much about watchtowers yet, but this map has the best xel'naga watchtower placement of all the maps. It shows just enough. Basically having vision of the ramps in the middle is great, it makes the middle of the map more dangerous to walk through, although it's also the fastest way to your opponent. You can take a slower way around the outer edges of the map though and you won't get spotted. Now when playing, do you just go down the ramps into the middle only to get spotted so they have time to prepare, or do you take the extra 20 seconds to walk around the outside of the map to get to your opponent out of watchtower range. If it weren't for another ESV map, this one should have easily gotten 1st place. I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others. The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On December 17 2011 05:31 RoboBob wrote: I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others. The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger. I wouldn't say defending a 4th would be as difficult as you are making it out to be. First off, if you took your 4th you then have 2 main chokes you would have to defend, the one by your natural and the one by your 4th. What's stopping you from completely walling off one choke or the other with buildings? Zergs won't have a problem with it because they want it to be open with lots of flanking opportunities. But for Terran and Toss since those two choke points aren't that large you can easily put 3 barrack to block off one of the paths, Put some gateways with a cannon or two behind it. Then you're pretty much safe, or can at least stall out long enough that you can get to where you have to defend. You also seem to think the player attacking is going to send a 200/200 army at the natural and have another 200/200 army at the 4th. If they do a split attack your army will easily crush the one it's at and then you can move towards the other location. I don't see a problem with not having "ninja" expansions either. Sure you could take the 3 and 9 bases as ninja expos if you wanted to, but honestly in high end games people should be scouting well enough that there will never be a ninja expansion that is unscouted. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
Map Rank: 4th Haven Lagoon So many people seem to enjoy Haven's Lagoon. It was the ugly duckling of the bunch and I'm sure everybody wants to root for it. The major problem with this map is the left side of the map. The 2 blue bases at the 8 & 10 positions and the Gold base at the 9 position. They will never get used unless it's a hidden base and/or one player is extremely far ahead. You will never see a 5 base vs 5 base on this map. The Gold is just asking for a zerg to throw up a ninja hatchery there and guess what, if you move your forces to attack it, everything else will be completely vulnerable to counter attacks. You can pretty easily grabbed a 3rd base here which is nice, except with how close the 4th base is it makes it kinda of cluttered & clunky. What's really bad is a terran could planetary up the 4th spot and pretty much get a free 3rd. It feels when this map was designed there was only 8 bases total. He then wanted more bases and added in 4 more. (Gold, the 4ths & the one at the 3 o'clock position) So, between all the cluttered bases, the "free" 3rd by taking your 4th and the poor design of the west side of the map. I do not think Haven's Lagoon should win TLMC. I really do appreciate the criticism. Honestly. I look forward to learning about mistakes so I don't make them again. However, many of the problems you point out aren't really problems. Here's why: 1. Zerg can easily get to 5 bases. Limiting zerg to 4 (5 with golds) doesn't really make it fair if the game becomes a late macro game. Quite simply, they always need to be a base or two ahead of the protoss and terran opponent. 2. Golds were kind of made for zerg, for once again, they can get 6 bases fairly easily. You got me with the ninja, but quite frankly its not that big of an issue. Gold don't benefit zerg like they do terran. Since they have less mineral patches, and thus it takes less drones to become saturated, the zerg will find themselves with over saturated bases. Also,since the gas geysers are normal geysers at the golds, they'd still be gas capped, and mass zergling from the extra minerals doesn't usually work out too well. Though, if it does pose an issue, putting rocks there would certainly solve it. 3. The third has actually been criticized for being too far, to the point where I had to make it how it is now, which some still say is too far. The fourth doesn't really defend the 3rd. If they're guarding the high ground, their natural is wide open, as their army probably isn't big enough to spread effectively at that point in the game. Not to mention you can always attack the natural 3rd via the low ground to deny it. 4. Indeed, it was originally designed with 4 bases. However, 8 wasn't enough, as zerg had late game issues as previously explained. Thus, I added the base that is now the fourth. Where they are close, the difficulty in taking and holding the two are on much different scales. Hence, they're allowed to be close. So yeah, you got me with the zerg ninja at the golds. Something for me to keep in mind for future maps, and I thank you for it. Keep up the good and constructive criticism! It is people like you that help mapmakers find and fix potential issues in current maps, and prevent them in future ones | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
I dislike Ohana play, despite how nice the map looks. | ||
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