It's been a few months now since the announcement of the TLMC and last weekend you were able to see the maps in action. I hope you all enjoyed the maps we selected and hope that you too believe that these maps are ladder worthy. But now it is time to decide which map is going to take away the title of "Winner of TLMC" and which maps will receive prizes courtesy of Blizzard. To remind you, the top five entrants will receive a Razer peripherals package which includes a Marauder StarCraft II Gaming keyboard, Banshee StarCraft II Gaming Headset, Spectre StarCraft II Gaming Mouse and the StarCraft II Zerg Edition Messenger bag. In addition to the Razer peripherals package, winning entry can select one of the following additional prizes; a signed Collector’s Edition of StarCraft 2, a signed Jim Raynor StarCraft 2 cardboard standup and a signed StarCraft II Poster. The second place entry can select one of the remaining two entries, and the third place will be given the remaining entry.
The process is simple, decide on your favourite map and vote! Meanwhile the TeamLiquid staff will be holding their own vote. The rankings will be combined and winning maps decided. Voting will take place over the next 3 days and conclude at Sunday, Dec 18 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00). The results will be announced as soon as possible!
Because there are two votes for this tournament, please keep in mind that winning the poll below does not mean the map has won the contest!.
Before voting think very carefully about which map you would most like to see in the ladder. While there is no guarantee that any of these maps will make the ladder at all, having this mindset about you will ensure that you are making the best possible vote for the contest. To remind you about the maps you can check out the map images below (click for full sized) or click the link underneath each map to see a game from the TLAF TLOpen which illustrates the features of the map. If this isn't enough you can check out the tournament thread for replays and VODs on the maps.
You can vote in the post below this! We are all very excited to see which of these maps you enjoyed the most and remember, voting closes at Sunday, Dec 18 4:00am GMT (GMT+00:00).
Special thanks to The Little App Factory for their sponsorship of the TLOpen held on these maps. Their support allowed the tournament to be a huge success and we saw some awesome games on these fresh and exciting maps.
The one game I played in the tourney (although I played multiple practice games on every map) was on Ohana, and I must say, that map was amazing, as was Alive v GeanuiaPig.
Sanctuary. The play with the forcefields on the bridges was great and I can see a lot of good things coming from this map. Hopefully others can see that too because it has not had a strong start in the poll. =/
Cloud kingdom is my favorite aesthetically, and also looks to have a very good design. It may be a dark map, but the crystals are awesome. The orange and the blue go wonderfully together.
I wanted to pick lagoon and altar, as well as ohana, but ended up picking cloud kingdom. The expansion layout and its integration with the paths is really cool to watch. If that makes sense...
kinda sucks that some maps have to lose. Even the maps that aren't getting as many votes are still great maps, but I voted for lagoon because of how different and interesting it was.
I'm waiting another day to vote so i have time to watch all the matches. .. I see Haven's Lagoon as the most interesting and potentially fun map but Ohana the best map balanced for ladder, tied with Cloud Kingdom. They're all so good.
I really like Haven's Lagoon the most.. just not as a ladder map.
On December 15 2011 13:31 unit wrote: if havens lagoon gets in theres a ledge imbalance that apparently needs to be addressed according to my Z teammate
Well wouldn't be the first time a ladder map got a little tweak after a while if there is really a "bug" or other concern with it!
Have to admit I didn't see any play on these maps (I'm kinda "out" of the scene recently...), but just for this I will update my SC2 and look at these replays
On December 15 2011 16:27 IronManSC wrote: I see that there are two polls involved - this being one of them. What's the other poll going to be?
The other is a secret staff poll. The results will be combined once the voting is over
Awesome pie.
I am very, very glad that folks such as you, teamliquid, and blizzard are stepping out and supporting the map community. This is the starting point to a very big future in starcraft 2!
I couldn't decide who I wanted to win in the leading 3, so I voted for Burning Altar .
I really liked how the map looked, it's one of the few maps I've seen where the magma really adds to the ambiance, and the red lighting helps a lot, too.
On December 15 2011 16:27 IronManSC wrote: I see that there are two polls involved - this being one of them. What's the other poll going to be?
The other is a secret staff poll. The results will be combined once the voting is over
That's a bit strange. How are the votes combined? Why not just have a crowd favourite and a staff favourite? I'm sure you've given this thought, but the current wording is a bit vague and discouraging. I hate voting for something that requires research when someone can just potentially ignore the vote later.
The maps are great, though. I've played a ton of customs with friends, and these maps are so much more fun than the ladder pool for playing
On December 15 2011 16:27 IronManSC wrote: I see that there are two polls involved - this being one of them. What's the other poll going to be?
The other is a secret staff poll. The results will be combined once the voting is over
That's a bit strange. How are the votes combined? Why not just have a crowd favourite and a staff favourite? I'm sure you've given this thought, but the current wording is a bit vague and discouraging. I hate voting for something that requires research when someone can just potentially ignore the vote later.
The maps are great, though. I've played a ton of customs with friends, and these maps are so much more fun than the ladder pool for playing
Well we need to have an overall winner they'll be combined by assigning points to each map corresponding to it's position in the poll. Rest assured that the public vote will count equally to the staff vote.
On December 15 2011 16:27 IronManSC wrote: I see that there are two polls involved - this being one of them. What's the other poll going to be?
The other is a secret staff poll. The results will be combined once the voting is over
That's a bit strange. How are the votes combined? Why not just have a crowd favourite and a staff favourite? I'm sure you've given this thought, but the current wording is a bit vague and discouraging. I hate voting for something that requires research when someone can just potentially ignore the vote later.
The maps are great, though. I've played a ton of customs with friends, and these maps are so much more fun than the ladder pool for playing
Well we need to have an overall winner they'll be combined by assigning points to each map corresponding to it's position in the poll. Rest assured that the public vote will count equally to the staff vote.
Ok, that sounds pretty reasonable. I like that the polls are equal. In fact, this info could be in the OP.
P.S. You'll get some maps tied on points, but I don't think it should worry you much.
Ohana was practiced by most people in the tourney since it was the first round map. When I checked the popularity on B.NET Ohana was the clear winner, but I don't think it's necessarily map design (don't get me wrong it's fantastic), but just the fact that you want to prepare for the one map that you're most likely going to get eliminated on.
I think that's going to affect people's opinion considering watching a game play out on a map and actually playing on it is an entirely different experience.
While I can understand the love for Ohana, I'm really impressed with how Twilight Peaks makes a 4 player map diverse over the spawning positions without making any spawn unfair, at least as far as I can tell for now. That's some top notch layout. And the design is some nice twist on the twlight/shakuras theme too.
On December 15 2011 17:32 CygNus X-1 wrote: Ohana is a ripoff of Belshir beach. they look very similar. so i think in regards to this poll, it should be discarded.
And Lagoon is a blatant ripoff of Ride of Valkyries, but the author didn't want to admit it, afaik. There are many similarities that can't be just a coincidence, but he still claims never never even seen RoV before. I don't buy that...
Torn between Ohana and Lagoon. But I feel like there is a severe shortage of destructible rocks in all these maps that Dustin Browder would not be happy with.
On December 15 2011 18:11 Clefairy wrote: Torn between Ohana and Lagoon. But I feel like there is a severe shortage of destructible rocks in all these maps that Dustin Browder would not be happy with.
Word on the street is they are giving Mr Browder 2 minutes alone with each map and rocks, what comes out of 2 minutes may be a thing of beauty, or pure horror.
I think burning alter is a good map, but I dont think I want to play on it. Ohana seems very balanced as well as visually stimulating. (got my vote) Lagoon is very original, but I think I'd have to talk to the designer because I dont really get it. Twighlight peaks is very straight forward, which might be good for ladder, but bad for contests. The others I dont find very appealing at all, and Korhal Compound is just really ugly, which works against what appears otherwise to be a pretty decent design.
THanks to everyone who put in the hard work. i love this community. I hope blizzard adds a few.
cloud kingdom got my vote, but ohana is also a very solid map. lagoon on the other hand was probably my least favorite. but it seems like people really want more beach maps :D
btw, the last replay for twilight peaks says vibe vs team zenex. wasn't that vibe vs illusion?
couldn't decide between Cloud Kingdom and Sanctuary, I really like the layout of both, ended up voting for cloud kingdom because of aesthetics. I'd really love to see a 3players map on ladder though
On December 15 2011 21:05 FlopTurnReaver wrote: Reading this thread is once again a reminder why we stopped doing community polls for MotM^^
Still haven't decided yet :o
i do love beaches, too!
but you can't force people to watch all replays before voting. in the end a beachmap will win, although a slightly more intersting map (cloud kingdom) is favoured by quite some map makers - and then again this is a map which was not chosen much iirc.
i would be intersted to see a statistic how many times a map was chosen in later stages of the tournament.
Sanctuary, Cloud Kingdom and Ohana definitely seem like the best designed maps out of the 7. I like Sanctuary the most but those 3 have the most interesting layout I think.
Burning altar is also decent, I just can't get over the looks.
On December 15 2011 21:11 Special Endrey wrote: i casted basicly all maps and sanctuuary is my favorite map - its like testbug but without beeing shit
Glad to hear that - I really like the idea of a 3 player map and I can't see anything wrong with sanctuary from the games I've played on it... (still have to watch the vods before voting tho).
While heaven's lagoon reminds me of scrap station (in a very bad way), I think it makes some critical changes that could make it a very interesting map. Although that might make it a bit too complicated having it in the map pool, especially for the lower leagues.
On December 15 2011 22:43 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I like Ohana. A lot of the other maps seem abusable as Protoss and maybe Terran.
Definitely Protoss, so many chokes. For Terran it might be possible, but very difficult vs zerg, a lot of them it's very difficult to set up a defenses outside the natural and you might never see a game go past 2 base.
On December 15 2011 21:11 Special Endrey wrote: i casted basicly all maps and sanctuuary is my favorite map - its like testbug but without beeing shit
You so harsh :'(
:D
dont take it the wrong way man - you re an awesome mapper - however when i saw games on testbug lately - most of the games where where won because of the map - holding a third seems merely impossible.
what i said was prolly a littl to harsh - apologies
I really think we are a lot more ok with rotational symmetry (in 3+ start position maps) than we should be. Burning Altar and Sanctuary both seem to me like they would have meaningful problems. I'm imagining playing a TvT on either of them, and I really have trouble imagining that I'd be indifferent about start locations. (I think this is true of Twilight Peaks too, though I'm not as sure.)
Once you put two players on it, 4-player rotationally symmetric maps have no symmetry at all. TL goes crazy about Scrap Station needing an extra creep tumor on one side... Why are we ok with maps where player A can drop player B's main, but player B can only drop player A's natural? (or third?)
On December 15 2011 21:11 Special Endrey wrote: i casted basicly all maps and sanctuuary is my favorite map - its like testbug but without beeing shit
You so harsh :'(
:D
dont take it the wrong way man - you re an awesome mapper - however when i saw games on testbug lately - most of the games where where won because of the map - holding a third seems merely impossible.
what i said was prolly a littl to harsh - apologies
Nonono, i answered with a friendly tone, it's ok :D
I would fuck the shit outta Lagoon. Its something new and exciting, but conceptually it seems like it with either be upgraded or forgotten, perfect for a one night stand.
I would marry Cloud Kingdom. Its hot and sustainable. Seems like it would keep loving me, and I loving it through the tests of time.
I would kill Blizzard and Plexa in one fatal swoop, because all of these maps (cept maybe burning sorry) should be in the ladder pool asap, and Plexa only gave us the option to vote for 1 .
Some stats I tried to put together. I did this by hand so expect mistakes. So many mirrors that a lot of the matchup win stats are kind of pointless, especially later on. Both semis, 3 Ro8s, and 3 Ro16s were mirrors. + Show Spoiler [Non-Mirror Match-up Results] +
Round of 512 (Bo1) Ohana: -PvZ --- PvT - ZvT 16-16 / 7-9 / 12-4 [Remember that many got byes in this round]
Sanctuary all the way! you just gotta love 3player maps. And it's nice and clean, no funky rocks or terrible backdoors. Fantastic map to just play a strait up game on! easy to take 3rd and even somewhat easy to take a 4th and so on. Excellent!
I think people are voting for ohana because that is the map most people played on in the tournament. Actually playing the map is hell for anyone besides terran. Snipin my bases so ez =(
cloud kingdom is awesome! i think lagoon is going to be really favored to terran mech or toss airplay. I suppose zerg would have a good time going mutas, but it looks like scrap station to me,
who the hell would vote haven's lagoon.... what a terrible map, autowin for terran in tvz imo
it looks nice but jeez, poor design
I actually really like twilight peaks as a map, the way the layout is, seems very balanced for all races, except for the fact that the third looks pretty hard to take without a mobile army. If the thirds were a little closer/easier to defend i would think it would be the perfect map with all those extra pathways.
I really like how few of the maps we're seeing today revolve around "shakuras-esque" uberchokes. Those make for just one dimensional games.
At the beginning of the contest my favorite map was Haven's Lagoon, and it still is. I'm Terran, I don't understand why so many people are saying its a Zerg autowin.
However I was really impressed by the games that Cloud Kingdom produced. I'm glad its getting alot of votes even though it didn't get mine.
I guess I'm okay with Ohana because its the safest, most standard map in the pool. But I want the ladder to be spiced up with maps that encourages new, different styles of play. I don't want more of the same but prettier looking...which is basically Ohana imo.
Here is how I feel about the different maps, now that I have seen them played on by serious players (I only watched the TL Open final match live, but browsed every replay offered in the OP), as well I tried them out by myself with a friend (gold/platinum level - we both play random, so no racial bias).
Burning Altar Orange and green is a dubious mix in my opinion (although much better than the former orange/green/purple mix, that was flat-out wrong). From a gameplay perspective, there is a lot of space to manoeuver air units around the edge of the map, and all mineral locations are next to said map edges (there are none cloe to the center). I personnally feel that Mutalisks are abusive at all levels of play above silver (i.e. when players actually know how to retreat), and a map that encourages them that much is not one I would like to see on ladder. Also, the watchtowers are activated by any single unit moving straight from your base to your opponent's base, which does not make them a very interesting contention point. One positive note though : split map play is more pleasant and interesting than on all 4p mirrored maps from Blizzard.
Cloud Kingdom It's dark, man. It's really dark. My opponent could not see anything in the fog of war (which does not make sending scouts easy). While that specific issue did not trouble me directly (different monitor/settings ?), the minimap was still completely black. While we are in the aesthetics-that-impact-gameplay-issues, I would like to point out that the ramp decals make it difficult to read where the actual ramp begins and ends. In terms of layout, the corner expansions will only be taken out of desperation, or irrepentant sneakiness. Lastly, the large number of parallel paths that can be used to cross the map lends itself to base race scenarios a bit too much to my taste.
Korhal Compound The large white tiles close to the starting positions are too bright, and unblended - I found them quite distracting. Other aesthetics are well-done and pleasant. I found the varying expansion heights to be well-balanced and provide good gameplay features. However, their overall layout essentially forces a counter-clockwise expansion pattern : other maps do a better job at providing competitive alternatives in varying directions. While I do not consider this to be an issue for isolated games or infrequent ladder play, it could cause some boredom in the not-so-long term. Nothing ever happens in the central crater. Once the game reaches 3-base stage, armies don't even walk through it anymore, which makes the Xel'Naga tower kind of pointless since their primary function is to oversee the crater.
Ohana I liked this map a lot. It feels like what Bel'Shir Beach should have been, and also reminds me of some old Total Annihilation map. It looks good and offers a lot of possibilities in terms of expansion patterns. I particularly liked that there are two entrances to the natural expansion (one of them being from lower ground, and blocked by rocks - which is fine). While I see how this may cause some QQ from pro or pretend-to-be-pro players, I personnally am of the opinion that unbreachable expansions à la Shakuras Plateau are boring. One aesthetical grievance : there is a height issue, in the natural expansions, that makes resource patches look bad.
Sanctuary I will start by saying that pulling off the BW "Aiur" theme in Starcraft II is rarely as well-done as this. However, as much as I appreciate every attempt at growing out of the 2/4p state of mind, there is too much rotational imbalance on this map. The player who is in the clockwise position has significantly worse options for a third base, and is more vulnerable to drops.
Haven's Lagoon While this map is still not as technically detailed as the other contenders, the overhaul that it was given after the finalists' anouncement has certainly made it good enough for ladder. I generally like that someone tried 2p mirrored, so bonus points for that. I'm not against the more-open-than-usual natural expansion. However, it does feel like going past 2 bases is hard (I doubt we will ever see it in competitive PvP). It's probably good enough for ladder play up to mid-platinum, not so sure after that. Finally, the mineral location right between the two main bases is really pointless.
Twilight Peaks I found the lush, greener-than-thou trees to be out of place on a twilight planet. The paler grass, although unusual as well, looks better, and is a nice variation from the usual Shakuras tileset. In gameplay terms, I found the map balanced and well laid out : it's quite classical, in the sense that while nothing particularly spectacular stood out, I did not find any clear flaw either.
My final ranking 1. Ohana 2. Twilight Peaks 3. Korhal Compound and Haven's Lagoon (tied) The rest I would not want on ladder anyways, so I'm not going to rank them.
On December 16 2011 01:55 Wherewolf wrote: Some stats I tried to put together. I did this by hand so expect mistakes. So many mirrors that a lot of the matchup win stats are kind of pointless, especially later on. Both semis, 3 Ro8s, and 3 Ro16s were mirrors. + Show Spoiler [Non-Mirror Match-up Results] +
Round of 512 (Bo1) Ohana: -PvZ --- PvT - ZvT 16-16 / 7-9 / 12-4 [Remember that many got byes in this round]
Burning Altar was chosen by players 5 times 1 as P vT 1 as P vZ 1 as T vT 2 as T vZ
Cloud Kingdom wasn't chosen by players (was first map in Ro16, not picked after)
Haven's Lagoon was chosen by players 7 times. 2 as P vP 1 as T vP 2 as T vT 1 as T vZ 1 as Z vP
Korhal Compound was chosen by players 2 times. 1 as P vT 1 as P vZ
Ohana was chosen by players 6 times. 1 as P vP 1 as P vZ 1 as T vP 3 as T vT
Sanctuary was chosen by players 3 times. 1 as P vT 1 as T vT 1 as Z vT
Twilight Peaks wasn't chosen by players (was bo1 map in Ro64, not picked after)
Incredibly small number of games on some maps
thanks so much for putting these number together. watched all Round5 games on Burning Altar now, number seems to be correct.
in general the seven maps seem to provide balanced matches. you cannot say much about some maps and matchups. the only thing that bothers me is ZvT on Ohana and Korhal Compound. + Show Spoiler +
Korhal Compound: Total games played: 125 ZvT 23-11
Ohana: Total games played: 105 ZvT 12-4
Imba? will have to see the matches, but these numbers are different than i would have expected. I rather expected less Terran wins on Lagoon, because the third is a bit difficult - but i guess the numbers are balanced because of shorter games... we really need a statistic on playtime, too
Cloud Kingdom looks like it's gonna create this really cool wall in dynamic, where you can slowly expand your territory by walling in more ramps. Ohana looks really nice, but I just think that the gameplay will be really unique on Cloud Kingdom!
Playtime would be very painful to do I think ;_; If I have time later I'll see if I can do it.
From what I saw in the replays I watched, most games were standard two base aggression that outright won or did enough damage to make it a onesided game after. 3rds-5ths hardly ever came into play..
On December 16 2011 05:59 Wherewolf wrote: Playtime would be very painful to do I think ;_; If I have time later I'll see if I can do it.
From what I saw in the replays I watched, most games were standard two base aggression that outright won or did enough damage to make it a onesided game after. 3rds-5ths hardly ever came into play..
are you talking about a specific map?
edit:
R5 - Burning Altar - average playtime close spawn: Ø 19.8min cross spawn: Ø 24.8min
shortest game: 10min PvP in close position longest game: 34min PvZ in close position (replay in OP iirc)
A lot of these maps have a cliff to the main that is way too large, and would make things like the SlayerS blue flame hellion elevatoring strategy too strong. I really like Haven's Lagoon.
I wasn't really thinking of a specific one, but I think had notable differences in average game length. Burning Altar usually got into later games, people favored two base on Haven I believe and Sanctuary because the thirds are a bit unique. TvPs I watched had a lot of 1-1-1s even on the bigger maps, and even the TvTs I saw were decided by early Banshees usually. I felt like people used a lot of strategies that don't depend on the maps much when possible. The finals generally had short games for instance. (proxy stargate attempt, 1-1-1, game 3/4 were longer, then 2rax aggression win)
I think that people like to use more 1/2 base aggression when unfamiliar with a map.
I vote ohana because it gives the most freedom in gameplay i think.
-You can go air harass and drops easy because of all the free space around it. However the small distances through the center makes this a bit dangerous if you just go harass.
-Easy natural and quite secured third base, so it is macro friendly.
-You can also easily rush since distances are not huge. I also like you can hide prosy near the natural, and also can easy cannon rush from the low ground with a pylon.
I really like the trend of protoss decals on the ramp. As maps become visually more complex, these work as beacons, allowing me to understand the terrain at a glance, instead of squinting at it for a bit.
After watching some of the replays, my vote goes to Cloud Kingdom. Not just because that game was epic, but because how much that map forces unit positioning into the front, and it's expansion progression.
I'm still checking the replays. Laggon's seems pretty good. Others are good too but there some 'imbalances' that can be easily solved. After I see the remaining 3 maps I'll sure vote.
On December 16 2011 06:19 Wherewolf wrote: I wasn't really thinking of a specific one, but I think had notable differences in average game length. Burning Altar usually got into later games, people favored two base on Haven I believe and Sanctuary because the thirds are a bit unique. TvPs I watched had a lot of 1-1-1s even on the bigger maps, and even the TvTs I saw were decided by early Banshees usually. I felt like people used a lot of strategies that don't depend on the maps much when possible. The finals generally had short games for instance. (proxy stargate attempt, 1-1-1, game 3/4 were longer, then 2rax aggression win)
I think that people like to use more 1/2 base aggression when unfamiliar with a map.
Seems like players play shorter, straight forward or rather short games on new maps. So the number of longer games and big number of multi-expansion games shows the potential of Burning Altar, i guess.
the tank issue was adressed and is solved, btw, as part of a general update (dropissue, pathing, visual things) + Show Spoiler +
First and foremost I adress the tank drop issue. For me it is important to conserve tank drop options, but do not make it imba in any way.
most important part is the drop pod. now it is easily defendable with two spinecrawler OR two queens + spinecrawler:
the area of hit-able area in the main is also drastically decreased in order to make sure there won't be anything like Alive's cliff tank-drop abuse. Marines signify the tank's reach:
please note that Reapers and Colossi are still able to walk up the main's cliffs.
On December 16 2011 08:09 ladyumbra wrote: I need to go over those replays, all I remember of TL open is terrans abusing the ever loving heck out of the ledges on burning altar.
The first thing I thought playing practice games on that map is:
On December 16 2011 10:10 ~Maverick~ wrote: I don't see what so special about Ohana other than that its aesthetically pleasing. Cloud kingdom has my vote!
Ohana has a huge open field in the middle. Which is slightly Z favoured against T and P.
On December 17 2011 02:17 Gfire wrote: My favorites are Lagoon and Ohana, but I absolutely despise pathable water.
How can you despise pathable water? That's what makes beach maps that much more unique. I can see people being against building things in the water including myself, for the sake of keeping the map pretty, but pathable water (where the water goes up to your waist) is pretty hot.
I've decided I'm going to post my reasons on why Cloud Kingdom deserves to be the winning map for TLMC. Take what I say as you want, I do think all the maps are great looking maps that can produce awesome games, yet I believe that Cloud Kingdom stands above the rest.
Map Ranks: 7th: Twilight Peaks 6th: Sanctuary 5th: Burning Alter
When spectating starcraft 2 games, many, many people want the games to be sweet long macro games with lots of back and forth action. For this to happen the map needs to be able to have at least a 3rd base in a reasonably defendable spot. If it's too far away Zergs will dominate as Protoss and Terran will have a harder time securing a 3rd. There are for sure 2 maps and to a lesser extent 3 of the 7 maps that grabbing a 3rd is going to be extremely difficult. These maps are Burning Alter, Twilight Peaks and to a lesser extent Sanctuary. Burning Alter, to grab a 3rd will spread you out very thin. You open up so many more attack paths and if the rocks get taken down it's even more of a death trap to hold 3 bases. Not only do you have to spread yourself out thin, but with those cliffs between the main & the 3rd, it makes it that much harder to hold a 3rd if you are even able to get it in the first place. Twilight Peaks, I haven't watched all the replays on it, but I'd be willing to wager most of them will never get off more then 2 base. If you thought holding a 3rd on Burning Alter was hard, times that by 10 and bam, you've got twilight peaks. Yes, 1 and 2 base games are fine, but when the map itself makes the 3rd soooo hard to get that we'll almost never see 3 base play which makes the map turn very stale. (Think PvZ on Dual Sight) Sanctuary is a little better but still very hard to hold. You can take the closer 3rd that hugs your main, but guess what, it's completely in the open. You could then take the high ground 3rd, yet that's farther away and thus your army as a whole will have to be spread out thinner. With these reasons I believe Burning Alter, Twilight Peaks & Sancutary should not win.
Map Rank: 4th Haven Lagoon
So many people seem to enjoy Haven's Lagoon. It was the ugly duckling of the bunch and I'm sure everybody wants to root for it. The major problem with this map is the left side of the map. The 2 blue bases at the 8 & 10 positions and the Gold base at the 9 position. They will never get used unless it's a hidden base and/or one player is extremely far ahead. You will never see a 5 base vs 5 base on this map. The Gold is just asking for a zerg to throw up a ninja hatchery there and guess what, if you move your forces to attack it, everything else will be completely vulnerable to counter attacks. You can pretty easily grabbed a 3rd base here which is nice, except with how close the 4th base is it makes it kinda of cluttered & clunky. What's really bad is a terran could planetary up the 4th spot and pretty much get a free 3rd. It feels when this map was designed there was only 8 bases total. He then wanted more bases and added in 4 more. (Gold, the 4ths & the one at the 3 o'clock position) So, between all the cluttered bases, the "free" 3rd by taking your 4th and the poor design of the west side of the map. I do not think Haven's Lagoon should win TLMC.
Map Rank: 3rd Ohana
Too many people love the beach theme. Everybody loved bel'shir beach even when it was first released and was completely imbalanced. Did people care? No, not really because it looked beautiful when played. The same goes here with Ohana, although it doesn't have as much of a problem as being imbalanced. Let's look at the map. Main, good. Natural, good. Third, good. Fourth, uhhh akward? So after you have your third and you want to grab a 4th, where do you go? To the middle of the map? Or expand in the opposite direction and go to the one that almost hugs your main? Well, if you go to the one hugging your main you then have a HUGE distance (the whole map) that you have to cover to protect your 3rd and 4th. If you don't choose that one, you then have to take the 4th which is in the dead middle of the map which is super close to your opponent's main base. My reason for disliking it appears to be the same reason NASL wanted it changed, they wanted the 3rd closer to the natural and the 4th closer to the 3rd which makes the expansion path not as weird. Also with how completely open the whole map outside your first 3 bases are, expect zerg to decimate because if you move out, you really have no chokes to hug, causing flanks & surrounds to be too strong.
Map Rank: 2nd Korhal Compound
I'm confused why this map is getting no love at all. The Main through 4th bases are probably one of the best expansions paths I've seen in a map. Not only are the 3rd and 4ths fairly easy to get, but they also open up many vulnerablities if you do end up taking them. You can easily punish players that take a too greedy third due to the lowground. When you take the 4th you have to worry about the highground right behind you. It's awesome though because as for main attack paths when you get a 4th you really only have to watch two places, yet it also there are tons of opportunities for harass. Harass = Good. I haven't talked much about watchtowers yet, but this map has the best xel'naga watchtower placement of all the maps. It shows just enough. Basically having vision of the ramps in the middle is great, it makes the middle of the map more dangerous to walk through, although it's also the fastest way to your opponent. You can take a slower way around the outer edges of the map though and you won't get spotted. Now when playing, do you just go down the ramps into the middle only to get spotted so they have time to prepare, or do you take the extra 20 seconds to walk around the outside of the map to get to your opponent out of watchtower range. If it weren't for another ESV map, this one should have easily gotten 1st place.
Map Rank: 1st Cloud Kingdom
Just look at this map and tell me if you've seen a map like it. There has not been a single map in sc2 that has had a layout with any similiarities that Cloud Kingdom has. Sure you could say well it's a main, easy to hold nat and a 3rd hugging the main, which is standard in just about every map. But the placement of the bases, the placement of the minerals and the attack paths to those bases make it interesting. You can easily take a natural on this map, yet with how the minerals are placed it opens it up to harass. As I already said, Harass is interesting, it's fun, people love to watch harass. The natural makes it easier to harass since the minerals have their back facing away from the main. Taking a 3rd, you expand away from your opponent, so everybody wins. (Terran could take the forward third if they wanted to, pfort it up and be in a great position too). Now, you expand away from your opponent, thus it's easier to defend your 3rd even though you now opened up many more attack paths. (Yet watch out, because remember how easy the natural could be harassed.) The 4th is fairly close to the 3rd, yet still super vulnerable. It's on low ground, there's high ground right behind it, yet, it's still far enough away from your opponent that you can grab it. The way the map is setup, high ground > low ground > High > low > high. It's crazy when you have to move around the map. You better have some flying units to get vision of the high ground, or you better take those watchtowers. A terran sieging up and attacking the 4th base leaves plenty of room for counter attacks or flanks. Yet with all the ramps it also brings a sense of security since you can forcefield the ramps, you can siege from the high ground. This map might be a tad bit dark but the overall look of it is just beautiful. The contrast of the orange & the blue is perfect. The base setup is safe enough that you can get a nice long macro game with lots of action.
With all this said, Cloud Kingdom deserves to win because of how unique the map is as a whole. You will see great games on this map, you will see 1, 2, 3, 4 and up to 5 base play on this map. You will see lots of flanking, counter attacking, harass,all things that make watching sc2 as a spectator so much fun. Hell, I bet if push came to shove they could easily change Cloud Kingdom into Beach Kingdom if asethtics were that much of a problem.
I could go on and on about all the maps more and why I like & dislike certain ones but I already feel I've typed enough. Again, take this feedback as you will. If you'd like me to explain more in depth on these maps please let me know.
With all that said, Cloud Kingdom, take it home baby!
Deciding between Ohana and Cloud Kingdom was really hard. Would love to have a map with the beach tile set on ladder but Cloud Kingdom in my opinion the better map
On December 17 2011 04:35 SidianTheBard wrote: Map Rank: 2nd Korhal Compound
I'm confused why this map is getting no love at all. The Main through 4th bases are probably one of the best expansions paths I've seen in a map. Not only are the 3rd and 4ths fairly easy to get, but they also open up many vulnerablities if you do end up taking them. You can easily punish players that take a too greedy third due to the lowground. When you take the 4th you have to worry about the highground right behind you. It's awesome though because as for main attack paths when you get a 4th you really only have to watch two places, yet it also there are tons of opportunities for harass. Harass = Good. I haven't talked much about watchtowers yet, but this map has the best xel'naga watchtower placement of all the maps. It shows just enough. Basically having vision of the ramps in the middle is great, it makes the middle of the map more dangerous to walk through, although it's also the fastest way to your opponent. You can take a slower way around the outer edges of the map though and you won't get spotted. Now when playing, do you just go down the ramps into the middle only to get spotted so they have time to prepare, or do you take the extra 20 seconds to walk around the outside of the map to get to your opponent out of watchtower range. If it weren't for another ESV map, this one should have easily gotten 1st place.
I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others.
The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger.
On December 17 2011 05:31 RoboBob wrote: I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others.
The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger.
I wouldn't say defending a 4th would be as difficult as you are making it out to be. First off, if you took your 4th you then have 2 main chokes you would have to defend, the one by your natural and the one by your 4th. What's stopping you from completely walling off one choke or the other with buildings? Zergs won't have a problem with it because they want it to be open with lots of flanking opportunities. But for Terran and Toss since those two choke points aren't that large you can easily put 3 barrack to block off one of the paths, Put some gateways with a cannon or two behind it. Then you're pretty much safe, or can at least stall out long enough that you can get to where you have to defend. You also seem to think the player attacking is going to send a 200/200 army at the natural and have another 200/200 army at the 4th. If they do a split attack your army will easily crush the one it's at and then you can move towards the other location.
I don't see a problem with not having "ninja" expansions either. Sure you could take the 3 and 9 bases as ninja expos if you wanted to, but honestly in high end games people should be scouting well enough that there will never be a ninja expansion that is unscouted.
So many people seem to enjoy Haven's Lagoon. It was the ugly duckling of the bunch and I'm sure everybody wants to root for it. The major problem with this map is the left side of the map. The 2 blue bases at the 8 & 10 positions and the Gold base at the 9 position. They will never get used unless it's a hidden base and/or one player is extremely far ahead. You will never see a 5 base vs 5 base on this map. The Gold is just asking for a zerg to throw up a ninja hatchery there and guess what, if you move your forces to attack it, everything else will be completely vulnerable to counter attacks. You can pretty easily grabbed a 3rd base here which is nice, except with how close the 4th base is it makes it kinda of cluttered & clunky. What's really bad is a terran could planetary up the 4th spot and pretty much get a free 3rd. It feels when this map was designed there was only 8 bases total. He then wanted more bases and added in 4 more. (Gold, the 4ths & the one at the 3 o'clock position) So, between all the cluttered bases, the "free" 3rd by taking your 4th and the poor design of the west side of the map. I do not think Haven's Lagoon should win TLMC.
I really do appreciate the criticism. Honestly. I look forward to learning about mistakes so I don't make them again. However, many of the problems you point out aren't really problems. Here's why:
1. Zerg can easily get to 5 bases. Limiting zerg to 4 (5 with golds) doesn't really make it fair if the game becomes a late macro game. Quite simply, they always need to be a base or two ahead of the protoss and terran opponent.
2. Golds were kind of made for zerg, for once again, they can get 6 bases fairly easily. You got me with the ninja, but quite frankly its not that big of an issue. Gold don't benefit zerg like they do terran. Since they have less mineral patches, and thus it takes less drones to become saturated, the zerg will find themselves with over saturated bases. Also,since the gas geysers are normal geysers at the golds, they'd still be gas capped, and mass zergling from the extra minerals doesn't usually work out too well. Though, if it does pose an issue, putting rocks there would certainly solve it.
3. The third has actually been criticized for being too far, to the point where I had to make it how it is now, which some still say is too far. The fourth doesn't really defend the 3rd. If they're guarding the high ground, their natural is wide open, as their army probably isn't big enough to spread effectively at that point in the game. Not to mention you can always attack the natural 3rd via the low ground to deny it.
4. Indeed, it was originally designed with 4 bases. However, 8 wasn't enough, as zerg had late game issues as previously explained. Thus, I added the base that is now the fourth. Where they are close, the difficulty in taking and holding the two are on much different scales. Hence, they're allowed to be close.
So yeah, you got me with the zerg ninja at the golds. Something for me to keep in mind for future maps, and I thank you for it. Keep up the good and constructive criticism! It is people like you that help mapmakers find and fix potential issues in current maps, and prevent them in future ones
cloud kingdom is the map i'd most want to see on ladder. Not saying the others might not be good, but if I had to pick one... that's it. My second pick is probably sanctuary.
I dislike Ohana play, despite how nice the map looks.
I really like these changes. The layout feels much more natural. It would be nice to see this become a standard part of the tournament pool (perhaps NASL will make it so).
On December 17 2011 05:31 RoboBob wrote: I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others.
The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger.
I wouldn't say defending a 4th would be as difficult as you are making it out to be. First off, if you took your 4th you then have 2 main chokes you would have to defend, the one by your natural and the one by your 4th. What's stopping you from completely walling off one choke or the other with buildings? Zergs won't have a problem with it because they want it to be open with lots of flanking opportunities. But for Terran and Toss since those two choke points aren't that large you can easily put 3 barrack to block off one of the paths, Put some gateways with a cannon or two behind it. Then you're pretty much safe, or can at least stall out long enough that you can get to where you have to defend. You also seem to think the player attacking is going to send a 200/200 army at the natural and have another 200/200 army at the 4th. If they do a split attack your army will easily crush the one it's at and then you can move towards the other location.
I don't see a problem with not having "ninja" expansions either. Sure you could take the 3 and 9 bases as ninja expos if you wanted to, but honestly in high end games people should be scouting well enough that there will never be a ninja expansion that is unscouted.
There are five paths you have to cover. The three into the fourth and the two at the natural. Covering all that distance at that point in the game is difficult. Sure, end game you can wall off and your army will be able to split up. But at the point in the game where you would be taking your 4th as your 3rd, you wouldn't, thus making it hard to defend and hold.
I really love the overall look and feel of Ohana. It seems like it would be a dream come true to see this (or it's RE version) on the ladder someday. Not only does it look like a balanced map, it has to be the most beautiful tile set combination in WoL.
Well, this is a tough decision, as these are some really great maps. The top 4 for me are Cloud Kingdom, Sanctuary, Burning Altar, and Ohana. I feel the other 3, although very good, have some minor structural faults, e.g., difficulty holding a third, unpleasant chokes to the natural, or lack of air space.
For voting, Ohana is out for me, due to the strong similarity to Belshir Beach. And I don't just mean aesthetically! I mean structurally. The most important difference is the addition of rocks between the 2nd and 3rd, which I personally don't like. Nonetheless, it would be as good as anything that is currently on the ladder, apart from maybe Tal'Darim Altar.
Burning Altar is interesting in the way it uses rocks to essentially shield the thirds. But I'd want to see a lot more play testing to convince me it is balanced, especially for close spawns.
Sanctuary and Cloud Kingdom are both great maps. Sanctuary seems very balanced and very carefully thought out. I'd be happy to see it on the ladder, and I think it would make for great games. In the end though, I chose Cloud Kingdom, simply because I feel the design is very original. The many attack pathways make it a highly dynamic map. In general, I'm not a fan of 2 player maps, but this one is something special.
On December 17 2011 05:31 RoboBob wrote: I think the problem with Korhal is twofold: first, its kinda ugly, and second, its one dimensional. Its super easy to get 3 bases but really hard to get 4 and 5. Its like Terminus RE but smaller. It encourages turtling up to 200/200 far too much, which benefits some races (like P) more than others.
The reason why Terminus worked (somewhat) because it was a large map, which gave Z breathing room to attempt a 300 food push against 200 food T/P deathballs. It also had more easily secured 4th/5th plus the opportunity for ninja expos, whereas this map has neither. Look at the map and tell me how an army defending the natural is ever going to reach the 4th in time to repel a second attack there. Its not going to happen, its too close to the opponent, the path is too far, and moving your entire army of there puts your first 3 bases horribly in danger.
I wouldn't say defending a 4th would be as difficult as you are making it out to be. First off, if you took your 4th you then have 2 main chokes you would have to defend, the one by your natural and the one by your 4th. What's stopping you from completely walling off one choke or the other with buildings? Zergs won't have a problem with it because they want it to be open with lots of flanking opportunities. But for Terran and Toss since those two choke points aren't that large you can easily put 3 barrack to block off one of the paths, Put some gateways with a cannon or two behind it. Then you're pretty much safe, or can at least stall out long enough that you can get to where you have to defend. You also seem to think the player attacking is going to send a 200/200 army at the natural and have another 200/200 army at the 4th. If they do a split attack your army will easily crush the one it's at and then you can move towards the other location.
I don't see a problem with not having "ninja" expansions either. Sure you could take the 3 and 9 bases as ninja expos if you wanted to, but honestly in high end games people should be scouting well enough that there will never be a ninja expansion that is unscouted.
There isnt 2 chokes, there's 4, and two of them are wide. You might be able to FFE or 3 rax wall off the natural, but it won't cover the fat ramp from the natural to the third. Walloffs wont help there, instead your best bet is just camping a big army at that ramp to easily secure your 3rd. The entrence to the 4th from the center is almost too wide to even be called a choke. The fat ramp from the 3rd to the 4th makes taking the 4th as a ninja expansion impossible, it can only be taken as a "natural" 4th.
The ability to ninja expansion is important, because if there are no viable alternatives then its way too easy for one opponent to simply siege the next expansion in line and autowin. Which makes for very boring, onesided games. Its the *potential* to ninja expansion thats important; that doesn't mean that it needs to happen every game.
Another big problem is the expansion pattern. The longer the game goes on, the further the players expand away from each other. You want games where the opponents expand closer together or stay the same distance, because the longer the distance from 4th/5th to 4th/5th the riskier it is to move out with a 200 food army. That just makes for boring, turtly play. Sure you get macro games, but they're very boring macro games, and the distinction is important.
Surprised that Ohana is doing so well in the voting. Not saying it isn't a good map but i think many are voting for it because of the tileset more than anything else.
I voted for Haven's Lagoon as it is going to be very difficult to drop mineral lines for terran and good overlord placement will see drops very difficult on this map. There a lot of features i like but that is the main one and hence why i voted for it.
There should be 2 winners spots for this contest Ohana may not be a good map for Zerg but it's just so beautiful.
On the other hand damn Cloud Kingdom is sexy and looks like an awesome Zerg map so sparse and huge ramps with many counter attack routes. Not to mention it looks so^^ god damn awesome purple is my favourote colour too!
EPT
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They're all so good.
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