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That's exactly how it works, actually. Suppose there's a really overpowered build, like 1-1-1 was when it first came out. It had an exorbitantly high win rate. Guess what? People used it like 80% of the time because it was so good. If warping onto the high ground were so amazing, every single Protoss would be doing it at least twice in a BoX. Since they don't, I can only imagine that they don't believe it's so powerful, hence it doesn't deserve a nerf.
No that's now how it work. You completely missed the point.
Blizzard doesnt balance on the Pro-level alone. Cannon rush is very easy to do and very hard to counter.
At a pro level it doesnt mean anything, on the ladder game it can give people like Gaulzi free #1 masters and means a lot to other people of any level.
You also missed the point that in HOTS, stargate get buffed and we'll see more consistently flying unit, and thus more frequently high ground warpin, especially when a particular unit can cloak the low ground pylon to allow a high ground warpin.
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On June 13 2012 12:21 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
That's exactly how it works, actually. Suppose there's a really overpowered build, like 1-1-1 was when it first came out. It had an exorbitantly high win rate. Guess what? People used it like 80% of the time because it was so good. If warping onto the high ground were so amazing, every single Protoss would be doing it at least twice in a BoX. Since they don't, I can only imagine that they don't believe it's so powerful, hence it doesn't deserve a nerf.
No that's now how it work. You completely missed the point. Blizzard doesnt balance on the Pro-level alone. Cannon rush is very easy to do and very hard to counter. At a pro level it doesnt mean anything, on the ladder game it can give people like Gaulzi free #1 masters and means a lot to other people of any level. You also missed the point that in HOTS, stargate get buffed and we'll see more consistently flying unit, and thus more frequently high ground warpin, especially when a particular unit can cloak the low ground pylon to allow a high ground warpin.
Gaulzi deserves every pixel of his Rank 1. He's a damn good cannon rusher. Neither you nor I can Cannon rush as well as Gaulzi. Give credit where it's due. Most people aren't getting into GM by Cannon rushing, no more than tonnes of people are getting into GM by 3raxing/6pooling. It can be done, but it's not something people do, and it's certainly not justification to remove those strategies from the game.
Cannon rushing a good player is actually really hard to do, by the way. I'm also pretty sure that the Oracle isn't going to make high ground warping any better, especially since high ground warping isn't actually that great anyway, unless you're 4gating or playing against a Protoss. Either way, if you teched to SG and got an Oracle out, chances are you've invested quite a bit. Being able to warp on the high ground isn't some huge bonus advantage; it's a feature of the build in general that makes it better and more viable, and even with it people don't generally win the game outright off a SG opener.
Aside from Gaulzi, I'd say that Cannon rushes are actually not particularly hard to counter.
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On June 13 2012 12:21 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
That's exactly how it works, actually. Suppose there's a really overpowered build, like 1-1-1 was when it first came out. It had an exorbitantly high win rate. Guess what? People used it like 80% of the time because it was so good. If warping onto the high ground were so amazing, every single Protoss would be doing it at least twice in a BoX. Since they don't, I can only imagine that they don't believe it's so powerful, hence it doesn't deserve a nerf.
No that's now how it work. You completely missed the point. Blizzard doesnt balance on the Pro-level alone. Cannon rush is very easy to do and very hard to counter. At a pro level it doesnt mean anything, on the ladder game it can give people like Gaulzi free #1 masters and means a lot to other people of any level. You also missed the point that in HOTS, stargate get buffed and we'll see more consistently flying unit, and thus more frequently high ground warpin, especially when a particular unit can cloak the low ground pylon to allow a high ground warpin.
Gaulzi actually isn't even close to #1 masters, he's low/mid master at best in season 7 with a pretty even win loss ratio.
http://sc2ranks.com/search/contains/eu/Gaulzi
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On June 13 2012 11:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 11:51 ChristianS wrote:On June 13 2012 11:37 Shiori wrote:
It just baffles me that people think they're entitled to play safe macro openers for the first 10 minutes of the game. Learn to react and stop trying to patch your greedy into safety. It baffles you that people think there should be a safe expansion build that doesn't rely on metagaming their opponent and hoping they don't get all-ined? You, my friend, are easily baffled. If you needed to 'metagame' to stop a 3gate Void Ray all-in or Cannon Rush, I'm not sure what to say. All fast expansion builds are on some level vulnerable to all-ins. Warping on the high ground has nothing to do with the strength of any all-ins aside from the 3Gate VR one, as far as I know, and that's hardly a strong PvT all-in as things go. Try scouting. Better yet, try explaining to me how this change is necessary to protect 1rax FE (which is already standard..)
Every build is on some level "vulnerable" in that it can be beat. With bad micro, pretty much every build is "vulnerable" to early pressure. I was under the impression that you were suggesting their should be openers that outright kill macro openers, so that you can't favor macro play every game without getting killed. If that impression was false, I apologize. I think what made me think you were arguing along those lines was referring to macro openers as "greedy," and suggesting they shouldn't be "safe."
As for scouting 3-gate VR, I've generally found it's not especially scoutable, other than scouting that the expand isn't there. It's not especially strong because it's beaten just by having enough units out, which with platinum-level macro against platinum-level opponents, I generally do. As for higher level issues, I couldn't say from experience, but based on watching the occasional 3-gate VR all-in in pro matches, the situation seems much the same at higher levels.
If you still want to all-in PvT, there's some solid blink all-ins and warp prism all-ins. They're strong enough to catch some opponents unawares and kill someone playing greedy (e.g. fast 3rd CC, only enough marines to fill the front bunker). They're shitty enough to be cheesy and all-in and rarely seen at the highest level of play.
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will we still be able to warp from a pylon on high ground to low ground?
sorry if its been asked...i will not be going through 48 pages to see if it's been asked already
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On June 13 2012 12:24 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:21 Protosnake wrote:
That's exactly how it works, actually. Suppose there's a really overpowered build, like 1-1-1 was when it first came out. It had an exorbitantly high win rate. Guess what? People used it like 80% of the time because it was so good. If warping onto the high ground were so amazing, every single Protoss would be doing it at least twice in a BoX. Since they don't, I can only imagine that they don't believe it's so powerful, hence it doesn't deserve a nerf.
No that's now how it work. You completely missed the point. Blizzard doesnt balance on the Pro-level alone. Cannon rush is very easy to do and very hard to counter. At a pro level it doesnt mean anything, on the ladder game it can give people like Gaulzi free #1 masters and means a lot to other people of any level. You also missed the point that in HOTS, stargate get buffed and we'll see more consistently flying unit, and thus more frequently high ground warpin, especially when a particular unit can cloak the low ground pylon to allow a high ground warpin. Gaulzi deserves every pixel of his Rank 1. He's a damn good cannon rusher. Neither you nor I can Cannon rush as well as Gaulzi. Give credit where it's due. Most people aren't getting into GM by Cannon rushing, no more than tonnes of people are getting into GM by 3raxing/6pooling. It can be done, but it's not something people do, and it's certainly not justification to remove those strategies from the game. Cannon rushing a good player is actually really hard to do, by the way. I'm also pretty sure that the Oracle isn't going to make high ground warping any better, especially since high ground warping isn't actually that great anyway, unless you're 4gating or playing against a Protoss. Either way, if you teched to SG and got an Oracle out, chances are you've invested quite a bit. Being able to warp on the high ground isn't some huge bonus advantage; it's a feature of the build in general that makes it better and more viable, and even with it people don't generally win the game outright off a SG opener. Aside from Gaulzi, I'd say that Cannon rushes are actually not particularly hard to counter.
Gaulzi use predefined pylon placement for each maps and beat pretty much every master or GM players that dont remember his name, so he's good about it, it's a "smart placement" but i doubt he deserve his rank.
Oracle isnt gonna make high ground warpin better, but the more common use of Stargate build and the ability to cloak your pylon/units will
Also, to make it short, Z and T also have theses gimmicky build but protoss have by far the biggest number of theses and it's actually hurting the matchups where protoss is involved, because you end up having a lot of fight that arent about micro/macro/harass but build order/random win where you die straight away to something you didnt/couldnt scout, and the add of mass cloaking to the oracle isnt gonna make it better
Also, cannon rush are really hard to counters and even almost unstoppable on some maps, you see pro players die to it all the times.
PS : We talk about cannon rush, but i want to point out that even with the change, cannon rush is still solid
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Cannon rush is weakened severely ... You will have to build a pylon on the highground before building a cannon, where before it was just straight cannon ...
On October 24 2011 18:37 Morfildur wrote:I like that change, the only thing it really affects are "abusive"/gimmicky strategies like 4gate and cannon rushes and there is never a need to place a lowground pylon to power highground buildings in a normal game. Good change, now they just need to remove the space behind the minerals on all maps to make me as a Zerg happy 
It hurts the high ground to lowground warpin. Nothing else important seems harmed. But if it gets rid of 4 gate and weakens cannon rush I am happy about it. I want to see PvP open up more as a result.
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I am totally ok with this. In TvP my biggest concern is a really good 3-gate void-ray build and in PvP a really good canon rush is a bitch to stop. Both no longer problems. It'll make me be more careful when executing timing attacks, but that's hardly a bad thing.
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On June 13 2012 12:49 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:24 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 12:21 Protosnake wrote:
That's exactly how it works, actually. Suppose there's a really overpowered build, like 1-1-1 was when it first came out. It had an exorbitantly high win rate. Guess what? People used it like 80% of the time because it was so good. If warping onto the high ground were so amazing, every single Protoss would be doing it at least twice in a BoX. Since they don't, I can only imagine that they don't believe it's so powerful, hence it doesn't deserve a nerf.
No that's now how it work. You completely missed the point. Blizzard doesnt balance on the Pro-level alone. Cannon rush is very easy to do and very hard to counter. At a pro level it doesnt mean anything, on the ladder game it can give people like Gaulzi free #1 masters and means a lot to other people of any level. You also missed the point that in HOTS, stargate get buffed and we'll see more consistently flying unit, and thus more frequently high ground warpin, especially when a particular unit can cloak the low ground pylon to allow a high ground warpin. Gaulzi deserves every pixel of his Rank 1. He's a damn good cannon rusher. Neither you nor I can Cannon rush as well as Gaulzi. Give credit where it's due. Most people aren't getting into GM by Cannon rushing, no more than tonnes of people are getting into GM by 3raxing/6pooling. It can be done, but it's not something people do, and it's certainly not justification to remove those strategies from the game. Cannon rushing a good player is actually really hard to do, by the way. I'm also pretty sure that the Oracle isn't going to make high ground warping any better, especially since high ground warping isn't actually that great anyway, unless you're 4gating or playing against a Protoss. Either way, if you teched to SG and got an Oracle out, chances are you've invested quite a bit. Being able to warp on the high ground isn't some huge bonus advantage; it's a feature of the build in general that makes it better and more viable, and even with it people don't generally win the game outright off a SG opener. Aside from Gaulzi, I'd say that Cannon rushes are actually not particularly hard to counter. Gaulzi use predefined pylon placement for each maps and beat pretty much every master or GM players that dont remember his name, so he's good about it, it's a "smart placement" but i doubt he deserve his rank. Oracle isnt gonna make high ground warpin better, but the more common use of Stargate build and the ability to cloak your pylon/units will Also, to make it short, Z and T also have theses gimmicky build but protoss have by far the biggest number of theses and it's actually hurting the matchups where protoss is involved, because you end up having a lot of fight that arent about micro/macro/harass but build order/random win where you die straight away to something you didnt/couldnt scout, and the add of mass cloaking to the oracle isnt gonna make it better Also, cannon rush are really hard to counters and even almost unstoppable on some maps, you see pro players die to it all the times. PS : We talk about cannon rush, but i want to point out that even with the change, cannon rush is still solid
Yeah, Gaulzi uses pre-defined pylon placement. Pre-defined pylon placement and pretty sick probe micro. To make a cannon rush work you often have to pull tricks like building a gateway in the split second between when a pylon is killed and when enemy units step into the space where it was in order to defend a building cannon.
I don't know your definition of "deserving" his rank, but Gaulzi's builds, micro, and game sense are good enough to win him games and maintain his MMR. In my book that counts as "deserving" his rank.
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On October 24 2011 18:37 Morfildur wrote:I like that change, the only thing it really affects are "abusive"/gimmicky strategies like 4gate and cannon rushes and there is never a need to place a lowground pylon to power highground buildings in a normal game. Good change, now they just need to remove the space behind the minerals on all maps to make me as a Zerg happy
Not really, they are actually very useful for things like putting them by watchtowers on certain maps and warping to the high ground.
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On June 13 2012 12:10 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:08 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 12:03 Shiori wrote:On June 13 2012 12:00 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 11:37 Shiori wrote:
It just baffles me that people think they're entitled to play safe macro openers for the first 10 minutes of the game. Learn to react and stop trying to patch your greedy into safety. You can still be aggressive as protoss Cannon rush will get nerfed, while still being good You can still warp on high ground, you'll need a warp prism That was just allowing the most gimmicky play, that awful players could pull off and there wasnt much you could do about it Yeah, because I'm sure MKP loses regularly to gold players who 4gate him. Come on. Gimmicks are part of the game. If you lose to them, it's because you reacted badly and didn't scout. Every race has their own set of gimmicks. Yeah because only the highest pro level matter ? I think not. And even at pro level, Polt got successfully cannon rushed by Sase. It's easy to just say "Just scout and react" without thinking that pylon powering high ground force you to scout your entire base constantly because even though not a single probe went up your ramp you're still in danger. So in the actual game, you cannot consistently scout that. In order to justify a balance chance, you need to be able to show that the current situation gives rise to problems that manifest in overpowered strategies. Warping on the high ground doesn't feature in any overpowered strategy, as far as I'm concerned. If you disagree, please tell me which strategies are overpowered because of Pylons allowing high-ground warpin.
It's not a balance change. This is just a small difference with WoL and HotS. The games in the expansion will be played with slightly different styles. If it were a balance change, then it probably would have been implemented already. The game can be balanced without the low-to-high warp in feature, and that's what they will try to do. It's only a matter of preference of how the game should be played, and apparently they would prefer it to be played differently in HotS. The warp in change might mean a lot if it were in WoL, but, in HotS, units and how pressure is applied are being reevaluated.
It'd be more constructive to disagree with their vision of the game and the entertainment value it might bring than to speculate on balance not tested.
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Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup.
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On June 13 2012 12:02 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:00 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 11:12 DeCoup wrote:
I'm Protoss and I agree with this change. The Warp Prism should be a more vital element in warp-in in general and I believe this is a step in the right direction. If it is considered to be too big a nerf then I hope the fix involves further buffs to the Warp Prism instead of a reversal of the change, however I don't think this will be required. Warp prism use won't be affected by this regardless of whether or not it gets removed. Don't know why people keep bringing them up. All this does is remove an aggressive mechanic which will kill a few builds relying on it. There are 2 way to warp on high ground, Pylon powering high ground and WP The first is removed and you dare say that it wont affect the second ?
They're two COMPLETELY different things. One is a mechanic, the other is a transport unit requiring tech. Getting rid of high ground warp only removes the timings that aren't possible with Warp Prism, and also indirectly nerf stargate/hallucination. Warp Prism builds operate independently. It won't affect warp prism use...at all...LOL.
On June 13 2012 13:22 Danners933 wrote:
Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup.
Why do you care whether or not Protoss players rely on gimmicky strats? Fairly bold assumption that anyone arguing against flat out illogical balance changes (that aren't fixing anything) turns them into a gimmicky Protoss.
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On June 13 2012 02:53 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
Do protoss realize that you are no losing the ability to warp in on the high ground? Protoss still have the Warp prism do they not? The only thing this will eliminate are cheesy VR all ins.
ohhh i see...
wait but how will it eliminate VR all ins? VR all ins use a low ground pylon to warp up right?
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On June 13 2012 14:08 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:02 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 12:00 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 11:12 DeCoup wrote:
I'm Protoss and I agree with this change. The Warp Prism should be a more vital element in warp-in in general and I believe this is a step in the right direction. If it is considered to be too big a nerf then I hope the fix involves further buffs to the Warp Prism instead of a reversal of the change, however I don't think this will be required. Warp prism use won't be affected by this regardless of whether or not it gets removed. Don't know why people keep bringing them up. All this does is remove an aggressive mechanic which will kill a few builds relying on it. There are 2 way to warp on high ground, Pylon powering high ground and WP The first is removed and you dare say that it wont affect the second ? They're two COMPLETELY different things. One is a mechanic, the other is a transport unit requiring tech. Getting rid of high ground warp only removes the timings that aren't possible with Warp Prism, and also indirectly nerf stargate/hallucination. Warp Prism builds operate independently. It won't affect warp prism use...at all...LOL.
Somehow a perfectly civil post making fairly reasonable points can be turned into something completely dickish just by adding a "...LOL." at the end of a point. What a curious phenomenon.
I believe his point was that in some situations people use a pylon and high ground vision to warp to the high ground where they could use a warp prism, e.g. DT builds that warp into the main using hallucination to skip robo tech. Now if someone wants to go DT, they'll have to use a warp prism to get into the main instead of using hallucination and a well-placed pylon. Nothing operates completely independently in the game space, unless they're separated by relevant times so that they will never co-exist in the same game at the same moment (e.g. 6 pool exists entirely independently of hive tech timings, because the timings that are relevant to a 6pool and the timings that are relevant to an ultralisk cavern are entirely separate). High-ground warp-ins are relevant any time after warpgate is researched, and warp prisms are relevant for any time after robo completes. As it happens, those timings have a significant overlap, thus not independent.
Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:22 Danners933 wrote:
Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup. Why do you care whether or not Protoss players rely on gimmicky strats? Fairly bold assumption that anyone arguing against flat out illogical balance changes (that aren't fixing anything) turns them into a gimmicky Protoss.
Correction, not a balance change, it's a game design change. Not changed based on a perceived imbalance, but rather based on a perceived problem in game design. Apparently Blizzard is of the opinion that high-ground warp-in all-ins do not make for fun gameplay.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 13 2012 14:42 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 14:08 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 12:02 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 12:00 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 11:12 DeCoup wrote:
I'm Protoss and I agree with this change. The Warp Prism should be a more vital element in warp-in in general and I believe this is a step in the right direction. If it is considered to be too big a nerf then I hope the fix involves further buffs to the Warp Prism instead of a reversal of the change, however I don't think this will be required. Warp prism use won't be affected by this regardless of whether or not it gets removed. Don't know why people keep bringing them up. All this does is remove an aggressive mechanic which will kill a few builds relying on it. There are 2 way to warp on high ground, Pylon powering high ground and WP The first is removed and you dare say that it wont affect the second ? They're two COMPLETELY different things. One is a mechanic, the other is a transport unit requiring tech. Getting rid of high ground warp only removes the timings that aren't possible with Warp Prism, and also indirectly nerf stargate/hallucination. Warp Prism builds operate independently. It won't affect warp prism use...at all...LOL. Somehow a perfectly civil post making fairly reasonable points can be turned into something completely dickish just by adding a "...LOL." at the end of a point. What a curious phenomenon. I believe his point was that in some situations people use a pylon and high ground vision to warp to the high ground where they could use a warp prism, e.g. DT builds that warp into the main using hallucination to skip robo tech. Now if someone wants to go DT, they'll have to use a warp prism to get into the main instead of using hallucination and a well-placed pylon. Nothing operates completely independently in the game space, unless they're separated by relevant times so that they will never co-exist in the same game at the same moment (e.g. 6 pool exists entirely independently of hive tech timings, because the timings that are relevant to a 6pool and the timings that are relevant to an ultralisk cavern are entirely separate). High-ground warp-ins are relevant any time after warpgate is researched, and warp prisms are relevant for any time after robo completes. As it happens, those timings have a significant overlap, thus not independent. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:22 Danners933 wrote:
Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup. Why do you care whether or not Protoss players rely on gimmicky strats? Fairly bold assumption that anyone arguing against flat out illogical balance changes (that aren't fixing anything) turns them into a gimmicky Protoss. Correction, not a balance change, it's a game design change. Not changed based on a perceived imbalance, but rather based on a perceived problem in game design. Apparently Blizzard is of the opinion that high-ground warp-in all-ins do not make for fun gameplay.
There are positions where you can't warp in on creep to attack an early third without a low ground pylon. low ground pylons add a lot to the makeup of what someone has to be wary about when playing vs protoss. To remove options from protoss is bad.
To remove options from any race is bad. Low ground pylons powering upper ground cannons is also useful defensively vs roach rush on maps that have part of the main overlooking the nat.
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Frankly, I'm getting quite fed up with the band-aid approach to game design. Oh, a bad design has unintended consequences? Well, we'll add situational conditions to it!
This is the same approach that ruined the ghost by pigeonholing it as purely an anti-caster.
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On June 13 2012 14:42 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 14:08 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 12:02 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 12:00 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 11:12 DeCoup wrote:
I'm Protoss and I agree with this change. The Warp Prism should be a more vital element in warp-in in general and I believe this is a step in the right direction. If it is considered to be too big a nerf then I hope the fix involves further buffs to the Warp Prism instead of a reversal of the change, however I don't think this will be required. Warp prism use won't be affected by this regardless of whether or not it gets removed. Don't know why people keep bringing them up. All this does is remove an aggressive mechanic which will kill a few builds relying on it. There are 2 way to warp on high ground, Pylon powering high ground and WP The first is removed and you dare say that it wont affect the second ? They're two COMPLETELY different things. One is a mechanic, the other is a transport unit requiring tech. Getting rid of high ground warp only removes the timings that aren't possible with Warp Prism, and also indirectly nerf stargate/hallucination. Warp Prism builds operate independently. It won't affect warp prism use...at all...LOL. Somehow a perfectly civil post making fairly reasonable points can be turned into something completely dickish just by adding a "...LOL." at the end of a point. What a curious phenomenon. I believe his point was that in some situations people use a pylon and high ground vision to warp to the high ground where they could use a warp prism, e.g. DT builds that warp into the main using hallucination to skip robo tech. Now if someone wants to go DT, they'll have to use a warp prism to get into the main instead of using hallucination and a well-placed pylon. Nothing operates completely independently in the game space, unless they're separated by relevant times so that they will never co-exist in the same game at the same moment (e.g. 6 pool exists entirely independently of hive tech timings, because the timings that are relevant to a 6pool and the timings that are relevant to an ultralisk cavern are entirely separate). High-ground warp-ins are relevant any time after warpgate is researched, and warp prisms are relevant for any time after robo completes. As it happens, those timings have a significant overlap, thus not independent. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:22 Danners933 wrote:
Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup. Why do you care whether or not Protoss players rely on gimmicky strats? Fairly bold assumption that anyone arguing against flat out illogical balance changes (that aren't fixing anything) turns them into a gimmicky Protoss. Correction, not a balance change, it's a game design change. Not changed based on a perceived imbalance, but rather based on a perceived problem in game design. Apparently Blizzard is of the opinion that high-ground warp-in all-ins do not make for fun gameplay.
They operate completely independent in the game space. Literally all of the builds that rely on this mechanic hit faster than a robo and/or can't afford it. Which is why they're called timings. If theres a reason to warp into their base later on it will be a warp prism 99.9% of the time. Warp prisms aren't affected nor are they an alternative. They're just killing various PvP all-ins and voidray/gateway timings which were never a problem. There is no overlap. Warp prisms will NOT see any more use because of this.
Pretty much no cheese is fun for gameplay, so why would it justify disturbing the meta game now? Everyone deals with various cheese builds. None of them are fun. All they've done is removed variety in builds that aren't imbalanced.
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On June 12 2012 19:13 skeptic916 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 19:09 Space Invader wrote:
warpgate is already overpowered as hell, anything to make it worse is great I can't remember where I first heard this, but having warpgates cool-down depend on the distance from the gate to the warp in point vary by distance sounds fair to me. I think there should be some sort of trade off between warpgates and regular gates. But Protosses are still losing games, on the other hand.
This. There is no strategic advantage over having gateways over warpgates, which is just fucking stupid. There should be a tactical difference in having one or the other. Make it so that if you are playing a macro/passive game you use warpgates to instantly make units at home to defend or make protoss take a risk in attempting to apply pressure with a forward pylon in that the cool down is longer or warp in time is longer (so that defender's advantage actually exists ffs). Or make it so that gateways make units faster but like terran and zerg, have to actually walk across the map if they want to engage the enemy. Play around with balance of units and make that happen or just take out warpgates completely. Otherwise, Terran should have an upgrade to be able to orbital drop units from barracks as long as its within a sensor tower range and you have vision of the area and Zerg should be able to meteor drop units where overlords are with a hive tech upgrade or something.
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There are positions where you can't warp in on creep to attack an early third without a low ground pylon. low ground pylons add a lot to the makeup of what someone has to be wary about when playing vs protoss. To remove options from protoss is bad.
To remove options from any race is bad. Low ground pylons powering upper ground cannons is also useful defensively vs roach rush on maps that have part of the main overlooking the nat.
I don't know why you quoted me for this one. I didn't even say anything about warping in on thirds, or removing options, or the use of low ground pylons to defend roach rushes. Although I'll remind you that this isn't coming in until HotS; the metagame will be sufficiently messed with by that transition that who knows whether that situation will still be significant.
On June 13 2012 14:56 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 14:42 ChristianS wrote:On June 13 2012 14:08 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 12:02 Protosnake wrote:On June 13 2012 12:00 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 13 2012 11:12 DeCoup wrote:
I'm Protoss and I agree with this change. The Warp Prism should be a more vital element in warp-in in general and I believe this is a step in the right direction. If it is considered to be too big a nerf then I hope the fix involves further buffs to the Warp Prism instead of a reversal of the change, however I don't think this will be required. Warp prism use won't be affected by this regardless of whether or not it gets removed. Don't know why people keep bringing them up. All this does is remove an aggressive mechanic which will kill a few builds relying on it. There are 2 way to warp on high ground, Pylon powering high ground and WP The first is removed and you dare say that it wont affect the second ? They're two COMPLETELY different things. One is a mechanic, the other is a transport unit requiring tech. Getting rid of high ground warp only removes the timings that aren't possible with Warp Prism, and also indirectly nerf stargate/hallucination. Warp Prism builds operate independently. It won't affect warp prism use...at all...LOL. Somehow a perfectly civil post making fairly reasonable points can be turned into something completely dickish just by adding a "...LOL." at the end of a point. What a curious phenomenon. I believe his point was that in some situations people use a pylon and high ground vision to warp to the high ground where they could use a warp prism, e.g. DT builds that warp into the main using hallucination to skip robo tech. Now if someone wants to go DT, they'll have to use a warp prism to get into the main instead of using hallucination and a well-placed pylon. Nothing operates completely independently in the game space, unless they're separated by relevant times so that they will never co-exist in the same game at the same moment (e.g. 6 pool exists entirely independently of hive tech timings, because the timings that are relevant to a 6pool and the timings that are relevant to an ultralisk cavern are entirely separate). High-ground warp-ins are relevant any time after warpgate is researched, and warp prisms are relevant for any time after robo completes. As it happens, those timings have a significant overlap, thus not independent. On June 13 2012 13:22 Danners933 wrote:
Protoss players that rely on gimmicky strats are the only ones mad at this change. Much needed in every matchup. Why do you care whether or not Protoss players rely on gimmicky strats? Fairly bold assumption that anyone arguing against flat out illogical balance changes (that aren't fixing anything) turns them into a gimmicky Protoss. Correction, not a balance change, it's a game design change. Not changed based on a perceived imbalance, but rather based on a perceived problem in game design. Apparently Blizzard is of the opinion that high-ground warp-in all-ins do not make for fun gameplay. They operate completely independent in the game space. Literally all of the builds that rely on this mechanic hit faster than a robo and/or can't afford it. Which is why they're called timings. If theres a reason to warp into their base later on it will be a warp prism 99.9% of the time. Warp prisms aren't affected nor are they an alternative. They're just killing various PvP all-ins and voidray/gateway timings which were never a problem. There is no overlap. Warp prisms will NOT see any more use because of this. Pretty much no cheese is fun for gameplay, so why would it justify disturbing the meta game now? Everyone deals with various cheese builds. None of them are fun. All they've done is removed variety in builds that aren't imbalanced.
Let's say MC decides to cheese IdrA. In fact, he decides to make DTs. At this point he hasn't chosen a build, just has a general game plan. In the current state of the game, there are a number of DT builds, each a unique snowflake that "exists independently" of the others in that you can only do one of them at once.
Some of these builds involve warp prism-ing the DTs into the main of IdrA. Some just run the DTs into IdrA's natural and hope he doesn't have detection. And some of them use the high ground warp-in mechanic to get the DTs into the main without building a robo or running up the ramp. And MC might choose any of these builds.
Now suppose the game is patched so that all the high ground warp-in builds simply don't exist. MC still wants to cheese IdrA, and he still has cheese available to him, but he cannot warp in from low ground to high ground to make his DTs. But his game plan is still the same: he wants to make DTs and go kill IdrA. So MC is now more likely to build a warp prism to get the DTs into IdrA's base, because he still wants to get DTs, and the high-ground warp-in builds are now not available, so he'll have to go with a warp prism build instead. In other words, removal of high-ground warp-in increases the likelihood that a warp prism will be used.
As for "disturbing the metagame," this change is planned for the HotS expansion. Compared to introducing NEW UNITS, adjusting pylon warp-in mechanics will barely nuzzle the metagame. That's like complaining your roommate's breathing is disturbing your sleep while 100-decibel party rock is blasting outside.
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