We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled.
On October 13 2011 11:43 BLinD-RawR wrote: It's a compromise to keep everyone happy even though one party is smaller,TL would want people to not visit their website on the off chance that they are afraid of spoilers.
Or avoid the main page entirely, bookmarking their regular haunts. A fan already has the emotional investment to do the above, a 40 year old who heard about it from a co-worker does not. You have 20s to pique the interest in him. Turn his spark into a fire. Miss it and he'll be gone. NO RE.
His eSports fan co-worker will continue to talk, but he won't bother any longer. Your one window gone.
Cool, but again TL writers don't finish their write-ups instantly. I'm seriously getting tired of posting this. Regardless of TL's spoiler policy, it'd be at LEAST a day before the TL write-up gets finished, edited, checked for quality and then finally posted. That day in itself is effectively enough time for people to watch VOD's, so even without trying to stick to a spoiler policy it's already done. What exactly is the reason for trying to disregard spoilers in the first place if what you're asking for isn't a result of spoiler fear but rather lack of manpower/time?
You are right, time constraints aside, the point stands. That's why sports editors have their writers prepare four articles for either winner. Two per winner, one for demolishing finish and one for upset finish. Then when the results are in, stop the press, insert article and resume.
Looking at the News, there's nothing revealed. Why should I care about IPL? Why should I care about tournaments? As you can tell, I am not big on tournaments. I feel I haven't missed out on anything. No one has made me care. Aside from Husky and Day[9] but even now they have stopped talking about it other than exciting, which got boring. So now I stopped caring, its just another gig where they vanish for weeks. See the emotional detachment? See where this policy of spoiler has created this little boys club, no casuals allowed atmosphere?
This is true. I hate TL.net because it only hypes people up before every major tournaments, during and after the tournament, it's like a ghost town. Sometimes it makes me wonder whether the hype is worth it. For example, the first GSL, the firs MLG, Dreamhack, I can never forget how excited I was, but after the first one, I was like meh with all the next.
On October 13 2011 11:43 BLinD-RawR wrote: It's a compromise to keep everyone happy even though one party is smaller,TL would want people to not visit their website on the off chance that they are afraid of spoilers.
Or avoid the main page entirely, bookmarking their regular haunts. A fan already has the emotional investment to do the above, a 40 year old who heard about it from a co-worker does not. You have 20s to pique the interest in him. Turn his spark into a fire. Miss it and he'll be gone. NO RE.
His eSports fan co-worker will continue to talk, but he won't bother any longer. Your one window gone.
Cool, but again TL writers don't finish their write-ups instantly. I'm seriously getting tired of posting this. Regardless of TL's spoiler policy, it'd be at LEAST a day before the TL write-up gets finished, edited, checked for quality and then finally posted. That day in itself is effectively enough time for people to watch VOD's, so even without trying to stick to a spoiler policy it's already done. What exactly is the reason for trying to disregard spoilers in the first place if what you're asking for isn't a result of spoiler fear but rather lack of manpower/time?
You are right, time constraints aside, the point stands. That's why sports editors have their writers prepare four articles for either winner. Two per winner, one for demolishing finish and one for upset finish. Then when the results are in, stop the press, insert article and resume.
Looking at the News, there's nothing revealed. Why should I care about IPL? Why should I care about tournaments? As you can tell, I am not big on tournaments. I feel I haven't missed out on anything. No one has made me care. Aside from Husky and Day[9] but even now they have stopped talking about it other than exciting, which got boring. So now I stopped caring, its just another gig where they vanish for weeks. See the emotional detachment? See where this policy of spoiler has created this little boys club, no casuals allowed atmosphere?
I see the emotional detachment but I have no idea why people blame a spoiler policy for it. TL writers are volunteers, not paid employees, so what we get is what we get. Asking, or rather complaining until they feel pressured enough to write bogus articles for nothing just to satisfy people who can't be bothered to click a results link just doesn't sit well with me. They have jobs, school, go to events just like we do and they're also required to write extra bullshit beforehand without being able to explain the games because they haven't happened yet? It has nothing to do with the spoiler policy. TL isn't really a news site like ESPN and shouldn't be held to such standards because it's mostly just community work. (BTW If anyone feels like they can contribute, Waxangel is the Chief Editor. He's probably going to be at MLG Orlando or IEM NY though.)
The whole premise of this thread is there aren't enough news posts highlighting recent winners, or it takes too long for them to show up. I'm not quite sure where the spoiler policy comes in play there to be honest.
The spoiler policy is just a courtesy that users should use while discussing fairly recent events. (<24 hours) Use of the built in spoiler button in a discussion or a "Spoiler" tag in the thread title is easily enough, and in absolutely NO WAY detracts from the following discussion. We don't need countless threads exclaiming "OMG STEPHANO IS A GOD HE WON IPL3!" to celebrate and discuss. "[Spoiler] Amazing IPL3 Final Results!" does the very same job, and since we're not talking about news posts here (covered that in my other posts) people can feel free to use whatever photos they have of champions with trophies in the thread. If the OP is engaging enough the title really doesn't need to be a spoiler. If it's results people want there's two links underneath the Liquipedia search bar, individual teamliquid pages (teamliquid.net/ipl & teamliquid.net/mlg) and LR threads to easily find results.
It's really strange to me that people actually have a problem with typing 9 more characters or clicking the spoiler button once.
I want to be able to visit TL and see awesome pictures of tourney winners and interviews with the winners right there on the front page after a tournament, I don't wanna have to wait the 2 weeks until a wrap up is done.
Sorry but if you don't want results spoiled...don't go to a Starcraft website, if you go here for more than just Starcraft (???) then bookmark the sub forum or w/e you prefer and just don't look at the side bar. If I don't wanna know who won the rugby, I don't go into a sports bar, that's all.
When you go to Playxp there are big photos of tournament winners and it looks bad ass. I wish we could have teamliquid like that, but way too many crybabies.
On October 13 2011 12:50 dtz wrote: Imagine how much more people will watch IPL if after Kiwi-Stephano Game 2, we can see this news on the TL front page :
KIWIKAKI Evens Up The Score Against Stephano With The Best Mothership Plays The World Has Ever Seen! ( Click here to follow IPL 3 live).
Guaranteed that more people who happens to be passing by will immediately check the tournament out.
So you just want headline titles with no content and deem that newsworthy? You get this kind of stuff on the teamliquid.net/mlg pages btw, as TL staff tweets it live from the events. Or perhaps you want one of those yellow bars that show up on top of the page like when it's counting down TL Opens? Either way that has absolutely nothing to do with a spoiler policy, because anyone who would see those at that very time can follow TL, the LR thread or watch right then and there. I'm still having trouble figuring out why people blame a spoiler policy for this type of stuff.
On October 13 2011 12:56 Talih wrote: I want to be able to visit TL and see awesome pictures of tourney winners and interviews with the winners right there on the front page after a tournament, I don't wanna have to wait the 2 weeks until a wrap up is done.
Sorry but if you don't want results spoiled...don't go to a Starcraft website, if you go here for more than just Starcraft (???) then bookmark the sub forum or w/e you prefer and just don't look at the side bar. If I don't wanna know who won the rugby, I don't go into a sports bar, that's all.
See you're assuming this is because of some sort of spoiler policy, which I don't believe is actually the case. Want TL write-ups to be faster? Volunteer your time, effort & knowledge, write something up and send it to Waxangel within minutes of the event ending.
On October 13 2011 12:58 icarly wrote: When you go to Playxp there are big photos of tournament winners and it looks bad ass. I wish we could have teamliquid like that, but way too many crybabies.
Really? Here's playxp's IPL report. See any photos? Not enough? How about the GSTL or the Code A Finals?
The spoiler policy comes in play because thanks to the policy I have stopped caring about tournaments entirely, NASL, MMSL, it's just money to be won. eSports is dead to me, WCG is dead to me. Why? Because there's no closure to the hype. I still do not know who won MLG anahiem. I feel betrayed by the community for the hype I have to click a 6 month old thread to see the winner's name in the spoiler tag like a soiled tampon. It's anticlimactic. It is like winning money in an eSports event is something to be hid; be ashamed of.
I learned so much about the main page even though I was here since official launch of SC2. I didn't know there was a results page even. Why should I care about some kid that won money? Oh right you can't tell me because that will spoil it for someone that wants to have the excitement of watching the VODs a week after it happened once he's done with his finals.
Seriously, do you want eSports to grow exponentially or not? If not, keep doing what you're doing, catering to the niche.
On October 13 2011 11:43 BLinD-RawR wrote: It's a compromise to keep everyone happy even though one party is smaller,TL would want people to not visit their website on the off chance that they are afraid of spoilers.
Or avoid the main page entirely, bookmarking their regular haunts. A fan already has the emotional investment to do the above, a 40 year old who heard about it from a co-worker does not. You have 20s to pique the interest in him. Turn his spark into a fire. Miss it and he'll be gone. NO RE.
His eSports fan co-worker will continue to talk, but he won't bother any longer. Your one window gone.
Cool, but again TL writers don't finish their write-ups instantly. I'm seriously getting tired of posting this. Regardless of TL's spoiler policy, it'd be at LEAST a day before the TL write-up gets finished, edited, checked for quality and then finally posted. That day in itself is effectively enough time for people to watch VOD's, so even without trying to stick to a spoiler policy it's already done. What exactly is the reason for trying to disregard spoilers in the first place if what you're asking for isn't a result of spoiler fear but rather lack of manpower/time?
You are right, time constraints aside, the point stands. That's why sports editors have their writers prepare four articles for either winner. Two per winner, one for demolishing finish and one for upset finish. Then when the results are in, stop the press, insert article and resume.
Looking at the News, there's nothing revealed. Why should I care about IPL? Why should I care about tournaments? As you can tell, I am not big on tournaments. I feel I haven't missed out on anything. No one has made me care. Aside from Husky and Day[9] but even now they have stopped talking about it other than exciting, which got boring. So now I stopped caring, its just another gig where they vanish for weeks. See the emotional detachment? See where this policy of spoiler has created this little boys club, no casuals allowed atmosphere?
I see the emotional detachment but I have no idea why people blame a spoiler policy for it. TL writers are volunteers, not paid employees, so what we get is what we get. Asking, or rather complaining until they feel pressured enough to write bogus articles for nothing just to satisfy people who can't be bothered to click a results link just doesn't sit well with me. They have jobs, school, go to events just like we do and they're also required to write extra bullshit beforehand without being able to explain the games because they haven't happened yet? It has nothing to do with the spoiler policy. TL isn't really a news site like ESPN and shouldn't be held to such standards because it's mostly just community work. (BTW If anyone feels like they can contribute, Waxangel is the Chief Editor. He's probably going to be at MLG Orlando or IEM NY though.)
The whole premise of this thread is there aren't enough news posts highlighting recent winners, or it takes too long for them to show up. I'm not quite sure where the spoiler policy comes in play there to be honest.
The spoiler policy is just a courtesy that users should use while discussing fairly recent events. (<24 hours) Use of the built in spoiler button in a discussion or a "Spoiler" tag in the thread title is easily enough, and in absolutely NO WAY detracts from the following discussion. We don't need countless threads exclaiming "OMG STEPHANO IS A GOD HE WON IPL3!" to celebrate and discuss. "[Spoiler] Amazing IPL3 Final Results!" does the very same job, and since we're not talking about news posts here (covered that in my other posts) people can feel free to use whatever photos they have of champions with trophies in the thread. If the OP is engaging enough the title really doesn't need to be a spoiler. If it's results people want there's two links underneath the Liquipedia search bar, individual teamliquid pages (teamliquid.net/ipl & teamliquid.net/mlg) and LR threads to easily find results.
It's really strange to me that people actually have a problem with typing 9 more characters or clicking the spoiler button once.
I don't think they're hurting e-sports. There's a easy solution to please both sides. However, blasting the front page of TL with results of a tournament your were interested in but to busy with life to stream...is absurd. That means we must avoid TL altogether. I guess that's fine.
I think a page specifically made for live tournament coverage can be made. With all kinds of headlines, while the normal TL is left spoiler free.
Hmm. As I first started to read the OP ... I tended to side with those that want to watch after the match to find out who won and don't want it spoiled
Then this cinched it for me:
"If you don’t want to be spoiled, you should not go to TL main page anyway (in my dream-like super Esports friendly TL main page).
I don’t think that every tournament results should be posted on the main page at the minute it’s done, be it should be the important finals"
When I don't want to get the results spoiled?
I don't look at the results.
He makes good points.
The main page would look great with a big pic of tournament winners onstage with a prize and a smile. It would make a huge difference for eSports.
I dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but maybe TL can have a spoilered Twitter feed on the front page/sidebars during major tournaments. I remember when I was going on vacation and waiting at the airport, I would look up results and game descriptions on the TL and MLG twitter during one of the MLGs.
Of Course it's totally a spoiler but for anyone curious enough to not care about getting spoiled, then it's a good thing.
I mean, if you get really enticing titles and announcements on live tournaments, it might entice more people to watch the tournament. So I can see where the OP is coming from.
On October 13 2011 13:08 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The spoiler policy comes in play because thanks to the policy I have stopped caring about tournaments entirely, NASL, MMSL, it's just money to be won.
eSports is dead to me, WCG is dead to me. Why?
Because there's no closure to the hype. I still do not know who won MLG anahiem. I feel betrayed by the community for the hype I have to click a 6 month old thread to see the winner's name in the spoiler tag like a soiled tampon.
It's anticlimactic. It is like winning money in an eSports event is something to be hid; be ashamed of.
I agree. This is exactly it.
The anti-spoiler policy has it's background and reasons, but the unintended consequences are that it dulls down the whole scene.
Give the winners their due and psyche up the community by playing UP the results ...
I have friends who can't watch Live whereas I do, they ask me not to spoil and I don't and they just don't browse TL until they watch the VOD's. They know TL is the biggest foreigner SC2 website and they know if they don't want to be spoiled they watch the games first.
On October 13 2011 13:08 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The spoiler policy comes in play because thanks to the policy I have stopped caring about tournaments entirely, NASL, MMSL, it's just money to be won. eSports is dead to me, WCG is dead to me. Why? Because there's no closure to the hype. I still do not know who won MLG anahiem. I feel betrayed by the community for the hype I have to click a 6 month old thread to see the winner's name in the spoiler tag like a soiled tampon. It's anticlimactic. It is like winning money in an eSports event is something to be hid; be ashamed of.
I learned so much about the main page even though I was here since official launch of SC2. I didn't know there was a results page even. Why should I care about some kid that won money? Oh right you can't tell me because that will spoil it for someone that wants to have the excitement of watching the VODs a week after it happened once he's done with his finals.
Seriously, do you want eSports to grow exponentially or not? If not, keep doing what you're doing, catering to the niche.
You just sound bitter. It has nothing to do with a spoiler policy. Seeing the winners name un-spoilered in the LR thread is not going to make you care about tournaments. You were talking earlier about news posts with emotional grabbing pictures, but I addressed that the reason we don't see those immediately after the events has absolutely nothing to do with the spoiler policy but more manpower & the reality of volunteer work. No closure to the hype? Do you not follow the LR threads as they happen? No posts in fanclubs? How about (if you feel it deserves an entirely new one) making a thread to discuss the amazing games you just witnessed, but adding 9 characters in the title out of courtesy?
e-Sports has been growing quite fast since the release of SC2. Most of the stuff happening now we thought would take years, and it's only getting better. Being kind to people for 24 hours by using spoiler tags does absolutely nothing to hinder that.
Actually i always find it stupid myself and therefore go to Gosugamers to find that kind of info. People that use the "spoilers" arguments are just dumb and shouldn't come here in the first place if they dont want to get spoiled.
Anyway, sometimes i get spoiled and still watch the games cause i know finals (except GSL) are always good. Hopefully TL admins gets this and implement it in the near future.
This isent criticism of TL, but i would have loved a massive picture of him, kissing that trophy and some dramatic tagline written "A New Foreigner King Has Been Crowned!", or "White Guys Fight Back" or something.
Spoilers are your own responsbility, TL is a great site that can be addicting but i think people can not come to TL for 2-3 hours and watch the games they have missed.
Instead you have a community on absolute lockdown, nobody has won anything because of the fear of spoiling it for people, that is kinda sad.
On October 13 2011 12:50 dtz wrote: Imagine how much more people will watch IPL if after Kiwi-Stephano Game 2, we can see this news on the TL front page :
KIWIKAKI Evens Up The Score Against Stephano With The Best Mothership Plays The World Has Ever Seen! ( Click here to follow IPL 3 live).
Guaranteed that more people who happens to be passing by will immediately check the tournament out.
So you just want headline titles with no content and deem that newsworthy? You get this kind of stuff on the teamliquid.net/mlg pages btw, as TL staff tweets it live from the events. Or perhaps you want one of those yellow bars that show up on top of the page like when it's counting down TL Opens? Either way that has absolutely nothing to do with a spoiler policy, because anyone who would see those at that very time can follow TL, the LR thread or watch right then and there. I'm still having trouble figuring out why people blame a spoiler policy for this type of stuff.
Doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Those suggested are headlines to grab attention. The more attention the better for a tournament coverage. Later on, there can be match report / analysis to follow up these headlines.
What a lot of people have suggested are that those headlines to be put in the front page just like how it is in news/sports websites when World Cup / UEFA Champions League / NBA Finals / Superbowls are taking place of have just taken place. This helps to centralize attention because a lot of people do still miss stuff that are not in the front page. Especially newcomers as they don't know where to look.
One of the reason ( i'm not saying it's the only reason) why these newsflash or coverage are not hitting everyone in the face is because of the spoiler policy. That's why you see in the liquid team news , it's IPL3 Origins : One day More or IPL3 Origins : Midway report instead of : IPL3 : Hero eliminated in a controversial fashion, or something like that. Those are spoiler-free titles. I am not saying TL need to be sensationalist, but non spoiler-free titles and headlines or pictures or whatever gives something more tangible for visitors to look at.
See you're assuming this is because of some sort of spoiler policy, which I don't believe is actually the case. Want TL write-ups to be faster? Volunteer your time, effort & knowledge, write something up and send it to Waxangel within minutes of the event ending.
Wait, you mean if I write something up and actually send it, there's a chance it might get published within the next 24 hours as a Spotlight or News post or something? Because I watch some of the big tournaments and I wouldn't have minded to write up a recap of the finals for IEM - Guangzhou or IPL 3 for example. Something short like + Show Spoiler +
Stephano walked over his Korean opponent FXOLucky in the finals of IPL3 in a memorable fashion, establishing complete dominance with a 4-0 win in what can only be described as an unbelievable breath-taking series
, maybe coupled with a picture of him lifting the trophy and his check, coupled with quotes like "I'm taking it to the bank", etc. for IPL3? I don't have pictures, since I wasn't there, but I could have taken a screenshot of the stream for example or some other liquidean could have sent a photo or two to waxangel. If there's no problem with a short headline like that for a starters, I don't mind doing it for tournaments I watch anyway. I just thought those news posts were written by particular writers.
Otherwise, if the news post is in all-caps, with bold red letters and a [SPOILER] at the front, saying something like [SPOILER] IPL COMES TO A CONCLUSION AFTER A SERIES THAT CAN ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS BREATHTAKING , I don't see why people who wouldn't like to have the results spoiled can't just ignore it.
On the topic, I personally check the results of all tournaments I've missed on this amazing thing called Liquipedia. And only if I see something that surprises me, like an upset, would I try to find the VODs. Take GSL for example. MVP steamrolling over Keen 4-1 in the finals wasn't really that amazing, so I'm content with the results. Idra beating Revival in IEM-Guangzhou 2-0.. Yeah, I watched that game and the whole tournament afterwards (stayed late just for those amazing Puma games). I'm sure there are other people who just use Liquipedia and decide afterwards weather the series are worth watching or not. So I think if there are people kind enough to give some of their time to write something not so fancy so it can be put in the front page for the comunity, just as an initial announcement, that shouldn't be too unreasonable. Coupled with the [SPOILER] in the front, I think all the whiners and haters and generally bitchy people, who feel the pathological need to express they are important by being jerks on the internet won't have much of an excuse.
Then again, I could be wrong: I saw this big all-caps news post about this huge tournament I've missed, but wanted to watch the finals of and even though I saw the giant bold [SPOILER] at the front I couldn't help myself and clicked on it. Now all the anticipation is ruined for me because I couldn't saddle my curiosity and I feel the need to bitch at someone.. Oh look, TL.net mods.
Edit: In my edits, I fix my mistakes, because even though I preview my posts for mistakes, I never find them out until I have posted it. Or I realize there is a better way to say something afterwards.
Concisely as possible, if someone is worried about spoilers, they shouldn't head to Team Liquid or scReddit etc, but directly to the VODs, which usually spoil anyway by the count & subsequent round postings.
In addition, I read somewhere that even when a viewer knows the ending, there is still a bunch of suspense for the viewer. In fact it seems that knowing an end result but not knowing how it happened creates just as much tension for the viewer as not knowing any outcome at all.
EPT
