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On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play.
No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for).
This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve.
So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that.
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On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play.
Then we get that fallacy again, where the state of the game is irrelevant for everyone who isn't a pro? And why the completely arbitrary limit of pros? Why not gold? Diamond? Deep Blue (after they bother to write an ai to run on deep blue)?
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On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play.
lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign.
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On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign.
No need to push your own subjective views.
Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close.
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On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close.
Just my opinion, but Flash and Innovation are, in general, playing at a much higher level than any other Korean terran.
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On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close.
I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented.
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Austria24422 Posts
On June 26 2013 17:31 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close. I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented.
At the highest level? No, not really. Protoss has always been the race that's underrepresented at the very highest level. Terran is doing fine. TY, Taeja, Fantasy, Mvp, Innovation, Flash are all doing prettttttty well.
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On June 26 2013 15:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for). This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve. So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that.
Big whoop. I was playing Toss in BW on money maps. Making mass cannons was standard. Tanks obviously outranged cannons. It seemed so unfair that they outranged everything, and did so much damage. So, I switched to Terran. Problem was solved, in my mind. Point is, if you're noob and you really don't have much time invested in any race or skill with any, then you're pretty much free to change races on a whim. If you want to be the "fun" race, then nothing is stopping you.
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Austria24422 Posts
The game shouldn't be balanced around fun. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER. Unit and race concepts and ideas should be designed to be fun but numbers, etc. should never be. If you're anything but GM then balance has zero effect on you.
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On June 26 2013 18:01 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 15:17 Rabiator wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for). This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve. So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that. Big whoop. I was playing Toss in BW on money maps. Making mass cannons was standard. Tanks obviously outranged cannons. It seemed so unfair that they outranged everything, and did so much damage. So, I switched to Terran. Problem was solved, in my mind. Point is, if you're noob and you really don't have much time invested in any race or skill with any, then you're pretty much free to change races on a whim. If you want to be the "fun" race, then nothing is stopping you.
There is a big difference between "mass cannons" and "mass tanks" in BW to the "super effective stuff in SC2" and that is you LOSE almost instantly. That never happened in BW, because even Siege Tank contains can be beaten AND you have the time (minutes) for it whereas the strong SC2 stuff only leaves you less than a second to react perfectly. This is a DESIGN ISSUE.
The big point is that even as a noob you could have FUN in BW because you had the illusion of having a chance. In SC2 that isnt the case anymore because you instantly lose to the Hellbat drop which you arent prepared for.
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If you tried to "counter" Siege Tanks in BW by using mass cannons you were worse than me ... and I am not that good at BW. Even in BW the Siege Tank had its vulnerability to air and adding a Shield Battery, an Arbiter and a Carrier or two to defend deals with that easily IMO. Protoss does have sufficient countermeasures to being sieged and I remember one really awesome TvP where the Protoss was sieged and contained by a wide line of turrets, Vultures, Spider Mines and Tanks for minutes and the Protoss still managed to win ... through the magic of recalling into the Terran Production.
On June 26 2013 18:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The game shouldn't be balanced around fun. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER. Unit and race concepts and ideas should be designed to be fun but numbers, etc. should never be. If you're anything but GM then balance has zero effect on you.
And why is a Hellbat drop (or Oracle harrass, or ...) NOT overpowered in a TvZ at lowest level of play? You have far fewer resources because of bad macro and the investment into that drop is minimal. You are basically doing a "/finger" towards anyone of less than GM level.
You seem to confuse "fun" with "imbalanced", but that isnt the case. Fun also includes balancing the game around multiplayer ... which includes more than just 1v1. If you dont know what I mean watch Day[9]'s BGH game from BW (daily 65 or so)
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On June 26 2013 17:35 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 17:31 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close. I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented. At the highest level? No, not really. Protoss has always been the race that's underrepresented at the very highest level. Terran is doing fine. TY, Taeja, Fantasy, Mvp, Innovation, Flash are all doing prettttttty well.
2 in the top 10, and 7 in the top 30 isn't "pretttttty well".
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On June 26 2013 18:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The game shouldn't be balanced around fun. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER. Unit and race concepts and ideas should be designed to be fun but numbers, etc. should never be. If you're anything but GM then balance has zero effect on you.
this is plain wrong. I want to remember you to the 1-1-1 era. But I guess, back then balance had also zero effect on all those master league protoss. 
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Austria24422 Posts
On June 26 2013 18:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 17:35 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 26 2013 17:31 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close. I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented. At the highest level? No, not really. Protoss has always been the race that's underrepresented at the very highest level. Terran is doing fine. TY, Taeja, Fantasy, Mvp, Innovation, Flash are all doing prettttttty well. 2 in the top 10, and 7 in the top 30 isn't "pretttttty well".
The top 30? There's no such ranking and if there is it's pretty subjective. You could look at WCS Korea Ro16 (P3/T6/Z7) and Finals (3/5/8) where terran was and is (3/5/5 as of today with 3 more terrans competing for Ro16 today) not underrepresented. Add to that Mvp's WCS EU win, Ryung's semifinals in WCS AM only barely knocked out by the eventual champion.
Terran's doing just fine representationwise.
On June 26 2013 18:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The game shouldn't be balanced around fun. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER. Unit and race concepts and ideas should be designed to be fun but numbers, etc. should never be. If you're anything but GM then balance has zero effect on you. this is plain wrong. I want to remember you to the 1-1-1 era. But I guess, back then balance had also zero effect on all those master league protoss.
It didn't. It was a problem because GMs and pro players were having the same problems with it until the immortal range buff happened.
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On June 26 2013 18:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 17:35 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 26 2013 17:31 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close. I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented. At the highest level? No, not really. Protoss has always been the race that's underrepresented at the very highest level. Terran is doing fine. TY, Taeja, Fantasy, Mvp, Innovation, Flash are all doing prettttttty well. 2 in the top 10, and 7 in the top 30 isn't "pretttttty well".
and the highest level is more than proleague, where 2/10 (when it should be 3.333333) and 7/30 (when it should be 10) is as statistically significant as the fact that Terran is 1st and 3rd in the rankings, when in a perfect statistical world with 3races the second best Terran shouldn't appear in the top3. So not at all.
It's astounding how people keep on yelling "statistically insignificant" when someone presents stats of a few hundred games (which in real world statistics can be more than enough if you know how to treat data), but the moment out of 30players the playeramount of one race is still within a confidence intervall of 50% (or something like that) but not perfect at the peak of the gaussian, people start crying.
Not to mention that 3/3 Terrans that are not Innovation/Flash went through their OSL groups. Leagues that are considered not the highest level like WCS Europe and WCS America have race distributions of 10/10/12 and 12/11/9, or Homestory Cup 11/11/10. All three of those without featuring Flash/Innovation.
It's getting sickening to hear martyr stories of Terran only being held up by 1 or 2 exceptional players while the rest suffers oh so hard.
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I think adding manual reload to widow mines would be really fantastic way to make ZvT MU in lower levels slightly favors the biomine player. If u compare the amount of things lower z has to do to counter it to the amount of things the same level of T needs to do is just a bit too much of a discrepancy
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One thing i don't get is why did terrans start using 3cc in hots. Mines arent even that good vs allins, they fire one time then its over. So i don't really get it. If you scout 3 cc and do a baneling attack you should win especially of they go mines without tanks. You can scout with the reaper but you can still do the bane attack after you have speed so i dont get that.
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The top priority should always be to balance the game for the highest level, while making it fun to play and to watch.
If the priority was to make it balanced for lower leagues, the pro scene would become awful imo.
Plus, lower leagues players are ALWAYS biased, because battle.net always make you face people who can beat you.. And every race has something to complain about. The a-move argument is so biased and childish.
It doesn't mean they should ignore lower level of play, it just shouldn't be the priority, but of course they should fix anything abusive.
Finally, sc2 being e-sport oriented is not just a "game", it's not mario kart (and I love mario kart).
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On June 26 2013 15:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote:
don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game. Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for). This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve. So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that.
There is League of Legends for that. I don't want THE esports to get slaughtered because of some babbies wanting the game to be balanced around their level. Those who made the effort to improve with constant playing (or with sheer talent) DESERVE to have the game balanced around them: they are the best ones. If it isn't fun to play for you just quit, don't expect to have the whole game balanced around your laziness and stupidity.
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On June 26 2013 19:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:On June 26 2013 17:35 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 26 2013 17:31 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 17:14 saddaromma wrote:On June 26 2013 15:44 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2013 14:34 Salient wrote:On June 26 2013 13:08 Sabu113 wrote:On June 14 2013 04:55 stratmatt wrote:On June 14 2013 04:52 Prog455 wrote:
[quote]
Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win. bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous. Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically. I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play. lol.. it's not just wood league... Look at the huge discrepancy between Flash/Innovation and every other professional Terran, Korean or foreign. No need to push your own subjective views. Fantasy, MVP, Taeja, TY... these players are on same level as Flash/Innovation, or atleast very close. I didn't really push any views.. no idea what you are saying. Flash/Innovation are the only 2 Terrans in the top 10 for Proleague. 7 Terrans in the top 30. I didn't say Protoss or Zerg are OP, but it would seem even at the level of Korean pros, Terran seems to be underrepresented. At the highest level? No, not really. Protoss has always been the race that's underrepresented at the very highest level. Terran is doing fine. TY, Taeja, Fantasy, Mvp, Innovation, Flash are all doing prettttttty well. 2 in the top 10, and 7 in the top 30 isn't "pretttttty well". and the highest level is more than proleague, where 2/10 (when it should be 3.333333) and 7/30 (when it should be 10) is as statistically significant as the fact that Terran is 1st and 3rd in the rankings, when in a perfect statistical world with 3races the second best Terran shouldn't appear in the top3. So not at all. It's astounding how people keep on yelling "statistically insignificant" when someone presents stats of a few hundred games (which in real world statistics can be more than enough if you know how to treat data), but the moment out of 30players the playeramount of one race is still within a confidence intervall of 50% (or something like that) but not perfect at the peak of the gaussian, people start crying. Not to mention that 3/3 Terrans that are not Innovation/Flash went through their OSL groups. Leagues that are considered not the highest level like WCS Europe and WCS America have race distributions of 10/ 10/12 and 12/ 11/9, or Homestory Cup 11/ 11/10. All three of those without featuring Flash/Innovation. It's getting sickening to hear martyr stories of Terran only being held up by 1 or 2 exceptional players while the rest suffers oh so hard.
EDIT: I misread your post. sorry.
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EPT
