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Whenever you hit post in this thread, think long and hard. Are you showing the proper amount of respect? If that is not the case, do not hit the post button. |
On July 22 2011 06:11 SeaSwift wrote:What annoys me about this is that it is reverse discrimination, like when the Western Governments started encouraging having a certain percentage of black people in jobs. I don't care what skin colour people has, and racism and all other kinds of mindless discrimination are despicable, etc, etc. The fact remains that purely because there are few female pro-gamers, SlayerS_Jessica picked EvE. Pro-gaming should always remain a meritocracy, and I disagree with picking up EvE over many players beyond her ability/potential, purely because she is female. If there were other reasons, like she'd won the application tourney, or was playing really well in Masters/GM I would be pleased about another sick SlayerS addition. Unfortunately, she's not. Just an encouragement move to female gamers which actually had the opposite effect to what was intended: a knee-jerk reaction from the community. Of course, I don't condone this knee-jerk reaction either. Most of the comments were just shite, no better way to put it. But I feel even if one side in this argument is less to blame than the other, neither are without flaws. This mess just shouldn't have happened in the first place and it's a shame it did. To fire/get rid of SlayerS_EvE would just lower respect for you and make it look like you've given in, so I reckon your course of action should stay true. There will be a lot of pressure on Eve, and I hope she can live up to it, not just for her sake, but for SlayerS in general and the community. Good luck 
this is a weak argument slayers eve was picked up as an investment
slayers wants to explore the female progamer market and you need to make investments for that. they want to mold her from scratch.
you cant expect them to get only GM female gamers when they are probably near to zero.
its either not trying to explore the market or making an investment.
slayers took the chance thats all
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If showing empathy for and dedication to those in your care is overreacting we could use a lot more of it. Anyone can troll, but how many can honestly say they can do that day in day out?
I just hope you know that for every vocal hater there's tons of quieter SlayerS and SlayerS_Jessica (and yes, SlayerS_Eve) supporters. Please stay strong, keep up the good work and may you and Lim Yo-Hwan have an amazing time in Anaheim next week!
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On July 22 2011 06:19 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:17 Chocolate wrote:On July 22 2011 06:15 carloselcoco wrote:On July 22 2011 06:12 cz wrote:On July 22 2011 05:59 carloselcoco wrote:
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Who does not want to see female pro-gamers!! 0.o
I am loving the initiative and people should stop flaming that she was only selected because she was a girl. Why? Because Jessica said it herself that it was because she was a girl! Jessica wants to see women in SC2 and so do I! So, unless you are gay, you should stop complaining about this... This is part of the problem though. You are only happy to see Eve on the team because of her sexuality ("otherwise you must be gay"), and nothing more. If her sexuality is what leads you to give her a positive reaction, you can't be surprised that others attack her based on her sexuality. It should either be respect her as a player, not a sexual creature, or not be surprised she is being targeted for her gender. Can't have it both ways. Do not twist my words mate. If you read my other posts as well, you will see that I believe in AND RESPECT Eve so much that I am sure she can beat the GM's in NA and EU he is not twisting our words You think it's okay for one minority to be discriminated against while you try to support another. That is the problem. OK, tell me where I am discriminating against a minority? Did you even read the quotes? 0.o
you made anti-gay remarks
that is not acceptable in any way
User was temp banned for this post (trolling).
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On July 22 2011 06:15 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:12 cz wrote:On July 22 2011 05:59 carloselcoco wrote:
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Who does not want to see female pro-gamers!! 0.o
I am loving the initiative and people should stop flaming that she was only selected because she was a girl. Why? Because Jessica said it herself that it was because she was a girl! Jessica wants to see women in SC2 and so do I! So, unless you are gay, you should stop complaining about this... This is part of the problem though. You are only happy to see Eve on the team because of her sexuality ("otherwise you must be gay"), and nothing more. If her sexuality is what leads you to give her a positive reaction, you can't be surprised that others attack her based on her sexuality. It should either be respect her as a player, not a sexual creature, or not be surprised she is being targeted for her gender. Can't have it both ways. Do not twist my words mate. If you read my other posts as well, you will see that I believe in AND RESPECT Eve so much that I am sure she can beat the GM's in NA and EU
You said what you said, no word twisting was required. By saying you must be gay to not be happy to see her selected, you focused entirely on her sexual attractiveness as the property that makes people happy to see her selected, thus seeing her sexuality as the primary mover in this debate, thus my retort.
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It's good to see a manager care enough about a team member to stick her own neck into a PR bear trap.
I hope this vocal minority of disgusting excuses for human beings don't step on any plans to push further into the female gaming market.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Oh stop being so overly sensitive. This is the first girl given proper training partners and practice, and she has shown potential already. What on earth does this hurt anyone? I really cant understand why people make such a fuss over everything these days.. It really makes me sad to see everyone bickering over something that should either (i) be seen as positive, or (ii) not be a bother to anyone.
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On July 22 2011 06:17 mcclurg wrote:
I totally understand we have a lack of females in esports, but I think the problem some people have is that if a male Gold player approached a team like slayers, saying he "won a gold tournament, and it's a big achievement" or that he had potential, he'd be laughed at.
Imo, positive discrimination is equally detrimental to esports as having few women.
prove that this kind of event happened ? or any other fact that supports this hypothesis ?
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On July 22 2011 06:07 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:05 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 06:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2011 05:58 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:55 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2011 05:53 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 05:40 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:35 Charger wrote:On July 22 2011 05:25 FreezerJumps wrote:
I don't support Eve, because she doesn't deserve what she's been given. I don't support Jessica, because she's given an opportunity to someone far less deserving than the masters and gransmasters players who have done far more to earn a contract.
But I also don't support the people who are saying anything worse than what I just said, nor do I support any of the supposed hatred and pictures which I haven't seen. Yeah, ladder ranking is all that people should consider when giving someone an opportunity to play on a team................. :o edit - Go SlayerS! And go BoxeR!!!!!!! <3 I didn't mean to imply that ladder ranking was the only important factor, but I do think it's quite a bit more important than gender and looks, which have been explicitly stated as reasons why she was added to the team.If you were in grandmasters on KR, playing against professionals, how would you feel when your chance to join a team is taken by someone else because she's a girl and you're a guy? I know a lot of people support affirmative action in e-Sports, but I'm not one of them. yes this is why people have to check their information is this information comes from thisisgame.com it was a speculation of the journalist not an actual statement of the team check it for yourself : http://thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=703754&category=102 From the OP: She was not selected through the pro-gamer casting system, but she is someone I selected for the team to help start having female competitors in Starcraft 2 Maybe I was wrong about the looks part, but my point stands. Gender shouldn't be a factor at all. Why shouldn't gender be a factor? It's their team, and they want to do more than just make a strong team - they want to help e-Sports grow. If you watched BoxeR's Wings, you'd see the sheer amount of passion and effort Jessica and BoxeR put into creating their team. Finding sponsors, finding a team house, all while Jessica took care of BoxeR while BoxeR practiced for the GSL. And after all that hard work from scratch, suddenly they can't recruit whoever they damn well please? What's with this idealistic sense of entitlement? They can pick whomever they want. All I've said is that I don't support those decisions. Eve hasn't earned anything. By your logic, one could argue that, for example, SlayerS picking up Alicia was also an unfair decision that you wouldn't support. Alicia lost in the recruitment tournament, yet BoxeR picked him up anyway because apparently he encountered Alicia on the ladder or something and saw potential in him. In other words, Alicia didn't make it into SlayerS because of just being good (having lost in the recruitment tournament) - he made it in because he was lucky enough to run into BoxeR in the past so that BoxeR could form a good opinion of him. There very well may have been plenty of other more-deserving players (if you go by skill as the only factor for deserving recruitment). And, you definitely don't "earn" BoxeR evaluating you as someone with potential - you simply have that potential or you don't. Thus, I don't really see how "earning" recruitment has to do with anything. Alicia was recruited for skill and potential, which are important. Eve was picked up because she's a girl, which is not important. Except Eve also won a female tournament, meaning that skill definitely came into consideration. It's not like SlayerS would just pick up some Bronze-league girl (which they would do, if they ONLY cared about gender). And how do you know that they didn't also see potential in Eve? Quoted DIRECTLY from the OP:
It has been less than a month since Eve joined the team. She was not selected through the pro-gamer casting system, but she is someone I selected for the team to help start having female competitors in Starcraft 2, after seeing that she had sufficient potential.Sounds like potential also came into consideration. I feel like you're looking at the gender angle so intently because it's the most glaring issue, that you forget that skill and potential did indeed also come into play.
Since you insist that I respond to this, here it is:
Slayers must have some implicit formula that determines whether or not a player is worthy of joining the team. This includes skill, potential, etc. But it also clearly includes gender. They didn't pick her just because she's a girl, but they did pick her because she's (presumably) the best girl according to their formula.
My argument is that gender should not be in the formula at all. They should be recruiting players purely based on assets that are relevant to the game. If the bar must be lowered for female players, I still think it should remain quite a bit higher than where Eve is.
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Thank you for posting this. I'm sorry that you and the whole Slayers team have to go through all of this. You made a great move bringing a female player onto the team, and I'm excited about her potential. All this flaming and other stuff by the other people is just completely unnecessary. I just want to see some good starcraft matches.
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Look at the response from the "community" to the first female progamer in SC2. Can you see why it might be important for teams to go out of their way to promote females in SC2?
This is about more than just winning matches, man.
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On July 22 2011 06:20 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:15 carloselcoco wrote:On July 22 2011 06:12 cz wrote:On July 22 2011 05:59 carloselcoco wrote:
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Who does not want to see female pro-gamers!! 0.o
I am loving the initiative and people should stop flaming that she was only selected because she was a girl. Why? Because Jessica said it herself that it was because she was a girl! Jessica wants to see women in SC2 and so do I! So, unless you are gay, you should stop complaining about this... This is part of the problem though. You are only happy to see Eve on the team because of her sexuality ("otherwise you must be gay"), and nothing more. If her sexuality is what leads you to give her a positive reaction, you can't be surprised that others attack her based on her sexuality. It should either be respect her as a player, not a sexual creature, or not be surprised she is being targeted for her gender. Can't have it both ways. Do not twist my words mate. If you read my other posts as well, you will see that I believe in AND RESPECT Eve so much that I am sure she can beat the GM's in NA and EU You said what you said, no word twisting was required. By saying you must be gay to not be happy to see her selected, you focused entirely on her sexual attractiveness as the property that makes people happy to see her selected, thus seeing her sexuality as the primary mover in this debate, thus my retort.
WHAT THE HELL!!!! I never said that you must be gay to not be happy to see her. I said that only a gay could care less about her sex and flame Eve because she is not at the same skill level of the rest!
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On July 22 2011 06:18 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
I am really sorry to hear about the slander and harassment (I did not know of the photoshopping, and I am appalled) that Slayers_Eve, and the entire team, has had to endure.
Slayers <3!
Also, to those criticizing her for Diamond level: from what I've read from FXO (in a recent blog post I think), Diamond in Korea is high Master's in the USA. It was a big deal when the first FXO team member made it into Master's from Diamond. The Korean server has a high density of players who really know what they're doing, and they've refined their builds.
GL to Eve, and again, go Slayers!
Two things:
A) It was a big deal for FXO to go from Diamond > Masters because the korean ladder was bugged, and wasn't promoting them properly. Not because it was a new achievement in skill
B) Even on other servers, High Masters and a Dollar will get you something from a vending machine. Even the small weekly tournaments are generally won by Grandmasters players, if not actual progamers.
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On July 22 2011 05:01 SlayerS_Jessica wrote:
"She was not selected through the pro-gamer casting system, but she is someone I selected for the team to help start having female competitors in Starcraft 2, after seeing that she had sufficient potential."
THIS is what some people doesn't seem to understand at all. Its very sad to see Eve's fanclub full of negative comments saying that how sad this is and asking why she has a fan club even though she hasn't played any matches yet and she is not as good as best male players. People really need to stop the hate. Great post Jessica! Eve and SlayerS fighting!!!
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On July 22 2011 06:12 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:07 Solinos wrote:On July 22 2011 05:59 carloselcoco wrote:
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Who does not want to see female pro-gamers!! 0.o
I am loving the initiative and people should stop flaming that she was only selected because she was a girl. Why? Because Jessica said it herself that it was because she was a girl! Jessica wants to see women in SC2 and so do I! So, unless you are gay, you should stop complaining about this... So, if someone was gay, they should continue complaining about this? I can't believe this is your best argument in support of Eve. It makes no sense, it's mildly offensive, and portrays an attitude that contradicts why Eve was allowed to join Slayers - to help foster a more diverse gaming environment. LOL, if you actually know how to read, which you clearly have proven as you do not know. I stated that unless you are gay you should stop complaining. SHOULD is the key word here. It is an option, not a command. LEARN TO READ!!!!! STOP THE HATING!!!
I just want to be clear I understand your point. First, you say everyone who opposes this decision must be gay. There's not much wiggle room there. Then, you ask that if people are not gay, to stop complaining.
To be clear that you understand my counterpoint: defending Eve and Slayers_Jessica with offensive remarks about a group of people is counter intuitive, as Slayers_Jessica is defending Eve from offensive remarks about a group of people (as well as Eve as an individual). I'm not sure how your post recent post refutes anything I said, but then my reading skills are clearly not on the same level as yours.
Eve is in Slayers for a variety of reasons, and some debate that her lower skill level should exclude her from being in a professional team. Saying that everyone who thinks that way is gay is a childish argument. Even if it were true, it doesn't argue against any of the points being made and is entirely irrelevant.
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I fully support SlayerS_Jessica, and hope that SlayerS_Eve will improve tenfold and show us some amazing games in future. Goooo Eve!! The entire SC2 girls' community is cheering for you.
On July 22 2011 05:01 SlayerS_Jessica wrote:
You might brush off the Female League as being insignificant because the players are Silvers and Golds
I do have to wonder about this, though. Maybe the ladder difference is really that big? Every NA/EU female tournament so far has only had masters level players in the finals and semifinals, the diamonds had no chance, not to even mention the girls from lower leagues.
Please consider entering Eve in one of the next ESL or Bunny Cup tournaments, I would be anxious to see how she matches up with our local pros like my teammate femFxNavi, flo or the biggest female tournament winner lately - AuRora, who are all incredibly skilled masters level players!
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On July 22 2011 06:21 FreezerJumps wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:07 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2011 06:05 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 06:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2011 05:58 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:55 HolyArrow wrote:On July 22 2011 05:53 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:47 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 05:40 FreezerJumps wrote:On July 22 2011 05:35 Charger wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, ladder ranking is all that people should consider when giving someone an opportunity to play on a team................. :o
edit - Go SlayerS! And go BoxeR!!!!!!! <3 I didn't mean to imply that ladder ranking was the only important factor, but I do think it's quite a bit more important than gender and looks, which have been explicitly stated as reasons why she was added to the team.If you were in grandmasters on KR, playing against professionals, how would you feel when your chance to join a team is taken by someone else because she's a girl and you're a guy? I know a lot of people support affirmative action in e-Sports, but I'm not one of them. yes this is why people have to check their information is this information comes from thisisgame.com it was a speculation of the journalist not an actual statement of the team check it for yourself : http://thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=703754&category=102 From the OP: She was not selected through the pro-gamer casting system, but she is someone I selected for the team to help start having female competitors in Starcraft 2 Maybe I was wrong about the looks part, but my point stands. Gender shouldn't be a factor at all. Why shouldn't gender be a factor? It's their team, and they want to do more than just make a strong team - they want to help e-Sports grow. If you watched BoxeR's Wings, you'd see the sheer amount of passion and effort Jessica and BoxeR put into creating their team. Finding sponsors, finding a team house, all while Jessica took care of BoxeR while BoxeR practiced for the GSL. And after all that hard work from scratch, suddenly they can't recruit whoever they damn well please? What's with this idealistic sense of entitlement? They can pick whomever they want. All I've said is that I don't support those decisions. Eve hasn't earned anything. By your logic, one could argue that, for example, SlayerS picking up Alicia was also an unfair decision that you wouldn't support. Alicia lost in the recruitment tournament, yet BoxeR picked him up anyway because apparently he encountered Alicia on the ladder or something and saw potential in him. In other words, Alicia didn't make it into SlayerS because of just being good (having lost in the recruitment tournament) - he made it in because he was lucky enough to run into BoxeR in the past so that BoxeR could form a good opinion of him. There very well may have been plenty of other more-deserving players (if you go by skill as the only factor for deserving recruitment). And, you definitely don't "earn" BoxeR evaluating you as someone with potential - you simply have that potential or you don't. Thus, I don't really see how "earning" recruitment has to do with anything. Alicia was recruited for skill and potential, which are important. Eve was picked up because she's a girl, which is not important. Except Eve also won a female tournament, meaning that skill definitely came into consideration. It's not like SlayerS would just pick up some Bronze-league girl (which they would do, if they ONLY cared about gender). And how do you know that they didn't also see potential in Eve? Quoted DIRECTLY from the OP:
It has been less than a month since Eve joined the team. She was not selected through the pro-gamer casting system, but she is someone I selected for the team to help start having female competitors in Starcraft 2, after seeing that she had sufficient potential.Sounds like potential also came into consideration. I feel like you're looking at the gender angle so intently because it's the most glaring issue, that you forget that skill and potential did indeed also come into play. Since you insist that I respond to this, here it is: Slayers must have some implicit formula that determines whether or not a player is worthy of joining the team. This includes skill, potential, etc. But it also clearly includes gender. They didn't pick her just because she's a girl, but they did pick her because she's (presumably) the best girl according to their formula. My argument is that gender should not be in the formula at all. They should be recruiting players purely based on assets that are relevant to the game. If the bar must be lowered for female players, I still think it should remain quite a bit higher than where Eve is.
Ah, I see. Thanks for responding. I must disagree with your viewpoint for my personal philosophical reasons, but I can see where you're coming from. I personally believe that sometimes, when something is in its infancy like e-Sports is, it isn't bad to make a move like SlayerS is right now - it's not completely relevant to their team simply doing well, but it's definitely done with good intentions on expanding interest in e-Sports to an entirely new demographic, so that's how I justify it.
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Great post by the SlayerS team manager. Jessica has my full support as, if nothing else, Korean laws were violated in all the hubbub. Hopefully this will help to deter future similar behavior. Best of luck!
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Thanks for the explanation Jessica. I never doubted in you or the SlayerS team.
To all people bitching and saying that Eve was picked only because she was a girl and that they shouldn't have, it's true she was picked because she is a girl but potential was also considered when picking her so I see nothing wrong here. She was picked to start building a scene where girls can be competitive progamers and I see nothing wrong about that and I hope that she succeeds.
SlayerS & Jessica fighting!
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On July 22 2011 06:22 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:20 cz wrote:On July 22 2011 06:15 carloselcoco wrote:On July 22 2011 06:12 cz wrote:On July 22 2011 05:59 carloselcoco wrote:
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Who does not want to see female pro-gamers!! 0.o
I am loving the initiative and people should stop flaming that she was only selected because she was a girl. Why? Because Jessica said it herself that it was because she was a girl! Jessica wants to see women in SC2 and so do I! So, unless you are gay, you should stop complaining about this... This is part of the problem though. You are only happy to see Eve on the team because of her sexuality ("otherwise you must be gay"), and nothing more. If her sexuality is what leads you to give her a positive reaction, you can't be surprised that others attack her based on her sexuality. It should either be respect her as a player, not a sexual creature, or not be surprised she is being targeted for her gender. Can't have it both ways. Do not twist my words mate. If you read my other posts as well, you will see that I believe in AND RESPECT Eve so much that I am sure she can beat the GM's in NA and EU You said what you said, no word twisting was required. By saying you must be gay to not be happy to see her selected, you focused entirely on her sexual attractiveness as the property that makes people happy to see her selected, thus seeing her sexuality as the primary mover in this debate, thus my retort. WHAT THE HELL!!!! I never said that you must be gay to not be happy to see her. I said that only a gay could care less about her sex and flame Eve because she is not at the same skill level of the rest!
Alright, you didn't say that you must be gay to not be happy, you said if you are angry you must be gay. Effectively the same thing.
Everyone who is mad because Jessica selected Eve must be gay!
Why would being gay or not gay matter? Why bring it up?
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