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On July 13 2011 23:55 Gurgl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:46 Kanku wrote:On July 13 2011 23:37 Spitfire wrote:
Refining build orders, in-game decision making, sense of positioning and controlling space, unit control, multitasking, these are examples of things that played a huge role in Brood War and still do in SC 2, and in which the former BW pros have an advantage over their competitors. That's actually the reason I feel BW has more strategic depth. The lack of area controlling units (such as lurker, vulture or even "good" siege tanks) is a big problem concerning the complexity of an RTS game I feel and tend to encourage blob vs blob battles... That's a really good point, units like that don't exist in SC2 except the siege tank which is arguably less powerful. I hope Blizzard does something in the expansion to get away from the constant blob vs blob battles. Maybe it's as simple as adding some units like that.
spine crawlers can be good area control units. best example game 4 of Sen vs MC in the nasl finals.
Sen blocked one side of the map with 8-10 spines so that MC could only attack in one direction and Sen can set up his bane drops
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Nuclear Bombs... You can use it as defense. You can do the same thing in BW, its just bombs were too difficult to get in BW.
Check it out bro, it's more entertaining than Flash's ultimate defense.
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1114
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On July 13 2011 23:01 Gurgl wrote:
I think stuff just dies too fast in SC2. When I played WC3 I used to think stuff in BW died fast(not as a bad thing, just different from WC3), now when playing SC2 and watching an occasional BW game I think "damn it takes long to kill stuff in that game". Stuff dies so fast in alot of cases that it severely limits the amount of micro or tactical moves you can pull off, they went a bit overboard with that. I think if it took a bit longer to kill stuff, similar to BW, it would make for more interesting fights and games overall.
Some units are completely dominant in SC2 armies, the colossus comes to mind. When engaging a protoss army that has colossus it often comes down to if you can somehow neural them, keep them out of the fight, or snipe them within the first seconds of the fight before they destroy your army. In PvT it's often a fight of HT's vs ghosts, feedback vs EMP, not very exciting to see who can get their spell off first imo. In ZvT we see more and more ghost vs Infestor showdowns. I hope Blizzard rethink the unit design a bit for heart of the swarm to make for more interesting battles, they should start with replacing the colossus because I can't think of a more boring unit.
This. It's not a good thing IMHO is a game is unforgiving to the point that one error cost you the game.
In BW you had to do more mistakes than your opponent in order to lose, so luck played a much smaller role, while in SC2 an error in a major battle can be caused by bad luck, misclick, ecc. and still making you lose the game. Plus the fact that those battles last too, too few seconds in order to make micro efforts really appreciable from a spectator point of view.
SC2 TvT is probably the best matchup. Have you ever wondered why? Because actually there are few battles between blobs lasting 1 sec, and the loser can actually make a comeback, by stalling the opponents with siege tanks waiting for the reinforcements
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On July 14 2011 00:09 IGotPlayguuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:01 Gurgl wrote:
I think stuff just dies too fast in SC2. When I played WC3 I used to think stuff in BW died fast(not as a bad thing, just different from WC3), now when playing SC2 and watching an occasional BW game I think "damn it takes long to kill stuff in that game". Stuff dies so fast in alot of cases that it severely limits the amount of micro or tactical moves you can pull off, they went a bit overboard with that. I think if it took a bit longer to kill stuff, similar to BW, it would make for more interesting fights and games overall.
Some units are completely dominant in SC2 armies, the colossus comes to mind. When engaging a protoss army that has colossus it often comes down to if you can somehow neural them, keep them out of the fight, or snipe them within the first seconds of the fight before they destroy your army. In PvT it's often a fight of HT's vs ghosts, feedback vs EMP, not very exciting to see who can get their spell off first imo. In ZvT we see more and more ghost vs Infestor showdowns. I hope Blizzard rethink the unit design a bit for heart of the swarm to make for more interesting battles, they should start with replacing the colossus because I can't think of a more boring unit. This. It's not a good thing IMHO is a game is unforgiving to the point that one error cost you the game. In BW you had to do more mistakes than your opponent in order to lose, so luck played a much smaller role, while in SC2 an error in a major battle can be caused by bad luck, misclick, ecc. and still making you lose the game. Plus the fact that those battles last too, too few seconds in order to make micro efforts really appreciable from a spectator point of view
You guys make it sound like SC2 is a much harder game than BW and it's easy mode army control. Slip once in SC2, play imperfect for just 1 second, even less than a second and your army evaporates. Easy mode BW and their easy mode army control. Their units even unclump automatically for you to reduce AoE damage. Easy mode I swear 
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So why can't the mechanical void left from brood war be used to drop like 20 places at the same time? Anyone who can't keep up would just fall apart.
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No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You're just missing the point completely.
Sieged tanks, lurkers and spider mines allow you to control any point in the map permanently until you move them or your opponent destroys them. The way they do it is being much more efficient than more mobile units that don't need to be rooted down to attack. They are also used to slow down an opponent's advance or retreat because they have to be careful moving around the map.
Static defense buildings and a temporary AOE attack aren't space controlling units. A nuclear bomb controls space just as well as a psionic storm.
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SC2 will never have a bonjwa.
User was warned for this post
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I cannot believe the guy just toke the example of FruitDealer as an example of SC2 randomness...
What about all the best SC players back in 1999 ? Did they dominate for an extended period of times ?
And btw, how can you not cite the example of War3, where there basically was 0 macro and yet there have been Bonjwa in this game (Moon, Grubby, Sky)...
I'm not saying SC2 is a marvelous game at this point, but I believe it could easily improve so much by just changing their game design philosophy.
Plus the game is not balanced at this point, late game Z >>> Terran, late game P >>> Terran as well, it's hard to judge a game with such balance issues.
Besides, once stupid units will be taken out (corruptors, mothership...) and micro challenging units/abilities will be buffed/added with the new patchs/expansions, the game might become really good.
It's glaringly obvious that the only way for SC2 to become a really awesome competitive game, and not a game that everyone pretends to be awesome because they want it to be awesome,is the micro way.
There will not be a macro differentiation between the PGMers with MBS and automining for very long.
So either Blizzard make SC2 more micro/multitask challenging and less about deathball of 200 food annihilating each other, or SC2 will fail whenever it will stop being considerd as fresh and new.
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It's pretty obvious that the skill gap wasn't THAT large between the Korean scene and the Foreigner scene but that gap is growing larger and larger. Huk is like the new Idra and Jinro has kind of fallen off the radar for a few months. It's no mystery that SC1 still has a dominant hand in Korea but SC2 is gaining popularity as more kids are playing it at the PC Bangs and stuff. The foreign scene is falling behind and the proof is there every time a Korean comes out of Korea and wins. (NASL, Dreamhack, MLG, etc). Koreans are really exploring the game extensively and practicing the game as much as SC1 pros play SC1 and when SC1 pros switch, they might have better control and mechanics but I don't think they'll be as dominant as they were in SC1 because of the difference in game play that SC2 brings to the table.
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SC2 games have gotten immensely better in just the past 6 months.
Night and day better.
Articles like these are going the way of the dodo.
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On July 14 2011 00:14 andrewlt wrote:No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You're just missing the point completely. Sieged tanks, lurkers and spider mines allow you to control any point in the map permanently until you move them or your opponent destroys them. The way they do it is being much more efficient than more mobile units that don't need to be rooted down to attack. They are also used to slow down an opponent's advance or retreat because they have to be careful moving around the map. Static defense buildings and a temporary AOE attack aren't space controlling units. A nuclear bomb controls space just as well as a psionic storm.
Terrans have Siege Tanks
Zerg have been using a combination of Spine Crawlers and Infestors for much the same thing
Protoss doesn't really have anything like that--but neither did they have anything like that in BW.
If that's your only argument I hate to be the one to tell you that it's only factually wrong.
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Yeah, even tank overkill is easy mode BW. Oh, even shuttle micro without losing shuttle's acceleration is EZPZ. Oh, even muta control, muta micro vs scourges, psi storm carpeting, zealot bombing, mine dragging ,science vessels sniping...
Btw: I like SC2, and personally I play it more than BW , but there are some things in SC2 gameplay that need to be fixed... I hope in the expansions
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On July 14 2011 00:18 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 00:14 andrewlt wrote:No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You're just missing the point completely. Sieged tanks, lurkers and spider mines allow you to control any point in the map permanently until you move them or your opponent destroys them. The way they do it is being much more efficient than more mobile units that don't need to be rooted down to attack. They are also used to slow down an opponent's advance or retreat because they have to be careful moving around the map. Static defense buildings and a temporary AOE attack aren't space controlling units. A nuclear bomb controls space just as well as a psionic storm. Terrans have Siege Tanks Zerg have been using a combination of Spine Crawlers and Infestors for much the same thing Protoss doesn't really have anything like that--but neither did they have anything like that in BW. If that's your only argument I hate to be the one to tell you that it's only factually wrong.
Please read my posts..
Like I have said before spine crawlers aren't area controlling units because you can't really use the ofensively (well unless you spine crawler rush someone yipeee) they are defensive tool like sunken were in bw they will not hold a position like lurkers in bw.
Also don't talk about siege tank because the fact is that in star2 they are BAD or at least not the most important unit in all terran matchup like they were in bw a part from TvZ sometimes and reaver are arguably space controlling units at least they require some sort of setup time being slow as shit ...
So no the fact is that SC2 doesn't have the same depth in term of space control ...
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On July 14 2011 00:18 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 00:14 andrewlt wrote:No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You're just missing the point completely. Sieged tanks, lurkers and spider mines allow you to control any point in the map permanently until you move them or your opponent destroys them. The way they do it is being much more efficient than more mobile units that don't need to be rooted down to attack. They are also used to slow down an opponent's advance or retreat because they have to be careful moving around the map. Static defense buildings and a temporary AOE attack aren't space controlling units. A nuclear bomb controls space just as well as a psionic storm. Terrans have Siege Tanks Zerg have been using a combination of Spine Crawlers and Infestors for much the same thing Protoss doesn't really have anything like that--but neither did they have anything like that in BW. If that's your only argument I hate to be the one to tell you that it's only factually wrong.
You're still missing the point. Siege tanks are much weaker than they are compared to their BW counterparts.
Both spider mines and lurkers need detection so their opponents need to walk carefully around the map. Spine crawlers don't have the dps and splash damage to control space effectively nor can they do it outside of creep. Infestors can be somewhat compared to the defiler but not to the lurker.
Protoss actually had that in the reaver. It was so slow that people very rarely moved it on its own. People moved it around using shuttles.
People who have only followed one scene can't really argue well with people who follow both.
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The moral of this thread is that there are a lot of bad players who believe high APM requirement makes a game more skillful than a high strategy cap.
What's the APM requirement in chess? Speed chess? It must be high~~~~
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nuclear bombs can control a space for a couple of secs, as well as vortexes, forcefields, etc.
The thing is, lurkers, siege tanks, spider mines can all be killed. What is permanent about that. You're describing a category that is not defense nor spell casting. In a sense, every unit has a certain amount of 'controlling space and positioning.' but when you're using lurkers, siege tanks, spidermines it means you want to surprise your enemy using traps. so ima assume that's what is meant by 'controlling space and positioning' lol
in sc2, what kind of units can utilize the role of trapping an army without spellcasting? burrowed bannelings. Dts. ghosts. You can rule out Dts and ghosts since what you're probably wanting is static defense that can trap units, which doesn't even matter IMO.
burrowed bannelings. Burrowed anything. umm... point defense drone?
burrowed banneling = stop lurker + spider mines. whats so cool about spider mines btw? its more nausiance in pro-gaming than ever now that they're laying them down everywhere.
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I agree heavily with this part as a player "It turns the outcomes into more a dice roll. The units are more efficient at killing each other and more spells/abilities can be automated. A good player, caught out of position at one unlucky moment, can lost his entire army in 10 seconds. "
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On July 13 2011 14:08 aimless wrote:Want proof? I can't offer that, but there is one barometer that suggests the skill ceiling is at work: the foreign scene. How many BW players came from outside of Korea to play and win in Korea? It wasn't a whole lot. But now? Koreans and foreigners are playing each other constantly and foreigners are winning games from even the current top Korean players. Sure, Koreans are still winning more, but the gap has narrowed. Magically. In a year. 12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners? Maybe it's the lack of BW Koreans making the switch, but maybe not.
It's hard to take a piece seriously when you write crap like this. Every single bit of evidence tells us that the gap is getting bigger for each week. And MKP was never a GSL champ, do you even follow the SC2 scene? At all?
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On July 14 2011 00:27 Lokian wrote:
nuclear bombs can control a space for a couple of secs, as well as vortexes, forcefields, etc.
The thing is, lurkers, siege tanks, spider mines can all be killed. What is permanent about that. You're describing a category that is not defense nor spell casting. In a sense, every unit has a certain amount of 'controlling space and positioning.' but when you're using lurkers, siege tanks, spidermines it means you want to surprise your enemy using traps. so ima assume that's what is meant by 'controlling space and positioning' lol
in sc2, what kind of units can utilize the role of trapping an army without spellcasting? burrowed bannelings. Dts. ghosts. You can rule out Dts and ghosts since what you're probably wanting is static defense that can trap units, which doesn't even matter IMO.
burrowed bannelings. Burrowed anything. umm... point defense drone?
No.
No.
No.
Mine were used to SLOW down the opponent, giving you the time to reinforce your army. In BW TvP, mines forced the P to use observer to clear those nasty mine, and it didn't required 2 seconds.
In SC2 is like "lolololol I caught you in a bad position" and 2 secs later is like "oh, where is your army now? I guess it's time to rape your bases"
And I'm sad for this thing, because I follow more SC2 than BW, and I would really like that SC2 will surpass BW one day. Because it's not a bad game.
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baneling landmines are good area controling units, also spines arent static, anyone remember nesteas nexus snipe with spines?
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EPT
