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Hi there,
I was just watching the NASL finals (MC vs PUMA), very nice games there but i wont spoiler. =P
To come to the point: Since i was in Skype with a friend i discussed over the games and we came to a strange notice:
Some Progamers cancel their Upgrades if the according building will be destroyed. For example a Forge developing the +1-Attack-Upgrade taken down by a Marauderdrop.
The thing is: If a upgrade developing building is destroyed the resources get refunded. That means there is absolutely no reason to cancel it, especially if it is close to be finished.
My question:
Why do they still cancel it?
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Good form and sometimes it can be the difference in a new warpin or something like that. It isn't that they need to benefit from it every time, but they don't want to skimp in another area because during times that upgrades are cancelled there is usually a good deal of pressure too.
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On July 11 2011 09:06 Kami47 wrote:
The thing is: If a upgrade developing building is destroyed the resources get refunded. That means there is absolutely no reason to cancel it, especially if it is close to be finished.
what, really? i had no idea, wow thats noob-friendly
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I think it's just a left-over from BW and other games, where you did NOT get (all) the resources back from units/upgrades that were being produced by a building when it was destroyed. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
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A few possible reasons:
- They have 2 of the upgrade building (forge / engi / evo) and want to restart the upgrade (because they were going to lose it, hence delays) on their second structure ASAP without waiting for their first building to die.
- Old habits from Broodwar.
- They don't know it gets fully refunded.
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As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost.
edit:
really ? hmm do not like it. as 7mk said how noob friendly.
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Force of habit from BW maybe, I hear that in BW if you didn't cancel you lose all the resources. Also if you are fighting somewhere else too the resources can be sued to quickly make additional units without waiting for the building to be destroyed.
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On July 11 2011 09:10 DarkEnergy wrote:
As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost.
False.
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Old habits from BW as well as maybe they are not 100% sure that their money will be refunded. That's my guesses anyways
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It's just old habits from BW.
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On July 11 2011 09:10 Tektos wrote:
A few possible reasons:
- They have 2 of the upgrade building (forge / engi / evo) and want to restart the upgrade (because they were going to lose it, hence delays) on their second structure ASAP without waiting for their first building to die.
- Old habits from Broodwar.
- They don't know it gets fully refunded.
- The minerals + gas is spendable as soon as the upgrade is cancelled, may give them a few seconds faster warpin on a stalker or a zealot.
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On July 11 2011 09:10 DarkEnergy wrote:
As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost.
You do get it back.
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On July 11 2011 09:10 DarkEnergy wrote:
As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost.
ye it doesn't get refunded man, same with units, you also don't get refunded the price once the building got destroyed.
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It's a habit from Brood War.... And quite honestly it should not get refunded in Starcraft 2 either.
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You might get it back, but the faster you cancel it the faster you can put that money to use elsewhere.. that's how i look at it atleast..
I would only do that if you're for sure that the building is going to die though :D
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Does it get refunded? I always thought producing armies were also not refunded?
Actually I thought I tested it once to confirm it, is it changed?
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So they can use the resources half a second faster? No reason to not cancel it if your fast enough.
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If you crash your car and could chose to get your insurance money before the car is about to crash or after a few weeks, what would you chose?
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Pretty sure broodwar refunded 75% if you lost the building.
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They can use the resources for something else sooner than if they didn't cancel right? Even a few seconds can change games!
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On July 11 2011 09:12 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:10 DarkEnergy wrote:
As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost. ye it doesn't get refunded man, same with units, you also don't get refunded the price once the building got destroyed.
False twice, you get both back. Only thing you don't get refunded is a building that is under construction.
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It's a 10 year habit ingrained into their brain from bw to naturally cancel an upgrade before the building is destroyed.
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On July 11 2011 09:13 Ghostpvp wrote:
Pretty sure broodwar refunded 75% if you lost the building.
Yeah this goes for upgrades and unit producing structures
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Units gets refunded. Upgrades gets refunded. Destroying a pylon refunds the warping in units. Even morphing zerg units gets the morphing cost refunded if the cocoon is destroyed.
The ONLY thing that doesn't get refunded after being destroyed is buildings.
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I think that a lot of pros do not realize that your money gets refunded if you lose the building while the upgrade is in progress just because that was most certainly not the case in Brood War.
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holy shit i didn't know that lol, never that about it, thought it would be the same as brood war, maybe they don't know cause they spent years playing bw... but htey should know since they spend everyday playing sc2
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In Broodwar you got a full refund as well, so no its not from broodwar (I just checked it right now)
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On July 11 2011 09:09 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:06 Kami47 wrote:
The thing is: If a upgrade developing building is destroyed the resources get refunded. That means there is absolutely no reason to cancel it, especially if it is close to be finished.
what, really? i had no idea, wow thats noob-friendly
WC3 and BW both had this mechanic if I remember correctly. It's not noob-friendly... It doesn't make any sense to why "cancelling" an upgrade wouldn't be the same as letting it get cancelled by having the building blow up.
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Get the refunds earlier, if it's 1000% sure to be killed. Every second counts.
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Guys, in Broodwar its STILL A FULL REFUND.
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It's amazing how many people did not play BW. Everything in queue in BW refunds.
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On July 11 2011 09:25 ch33psh33p wrote:
Guys, in Broodwar its STILL A FULL REFUND.
I just tested this with Siege Tech; before I was at 438 minerals, after destroying the addon without cancelling the upgrade I was at 400. I stopped all mining of minerals and gas during the test. Based on this test it's pretty clear that you lose 25% of the cost of the upgrade.
I tested it another time and it took 25% of the cost for metabolic boost.
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its just a instinct of being good, no other way to put it
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if you don't manually cancel, you run the risk of forgetting that it never finished
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On July 11 2011 09:39 Crisco wrote:
if you don't manually cancel, you run the risk of forgetting that it never finished
You can click units to tell if upgrade finished or not.
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On July 11 2011 09:09 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:06 Kami47 wrote:
The thing is: If a upgrade developing building is destroyed the resources get refunded. That means there is absolutely no reason to cancel it, especially if it is close to be finished.
what, really? i had no idea, wow thats noob-friendly
It was the same in BW.....
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Didnt even know it didnt get refunded in BW, i always canceled my upgrades out of habit ><
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BW habit and for quicker refund.
Nothing funnier than seeing a starport get blown up with a BC making and them forgetting to cancel.
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Okay.. didn't know that.
But units qued up you still lose money right?
Right ??
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On July 11 2011 09:48 CurLy[] wrote:
Okay.. didn't know that.
But units qued up you still lose money right?
Right ??
No and it was still the same in BW and W3.
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I had no idea it got refunded if the building got destroyed, that's dumb
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how can there be so much confusion over this lol, theres only one right answer
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Because they played BW and these types of "features" weren't part of BW. You actually had to cancel it. If you didn't and the building died you weren't refunded.
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You get the money THAT much faster. 
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lol wow. 7 years later and im just finding out u get the money back?
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On July 11 2011 09:13 Ghostpvp wrote:
Pretty sure broodwar refunded 75% if you lost the building.
Nope. BW refunds 100% on upgrades on destroyed buildings. Still 75% on canceled buildings/addons/building morphs (lair, colonies, etc).
EDIT: Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. In BW, you only get 75% refund on upgrades from destroyed buildings. Just tested. Heh.
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United States7483 Posts
A fully constructed building that is currently performing some function that costs minerals or gas when it is destroyed gives a 100% refund for any actions that are forcibly canceled due to the destruction of the building.
Building marines when the barracks gets blown up? Full refund (even for queue'd marines). Researching +3 shield upgrade at the forge? Full refund.
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It's most likely a reaction in sc2, since most of the korean pros/ some others come from BW where it doesn't refund.
Also even if you do get the full refund back, you get the money quicker to spend on units to actually stop the attack.
One of the goals in SC is to make sure you are constantly using money, and to not waste it on something random. So if the upgrading building is going to take 10 seconds to die, you can have your money back 10 seconds quicker to build something else.
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Saying who's in finals is still a spoiler :/
T_T
Probably habitfrom bw
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I wasnt aware that the resources were refunded if the building was destroyed, and the upgrade not being canceled. Good information
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On July 11 2011 09:51 Lunchador wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:13 Ghostpvp wrote:
Pretty sure broodwar refunded 75% if you lost the building. Nope. BW refunds 100% on upgrades on destroyed buildings. Still 75% on canceled buildings/addons/building morphs (lair, colonies, etc). EDIT: Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. In BW, you only get 75% refund on upgrades from destroyed buildings. Just tested. Heh.
Is the same in SC2 no?
100% for units and 75 for upgrades no?
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yep as everyone said, habits from bw.
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If you know you're going to lose it. Why not cancel it and get your money back sooner? So you can spend it elsewhere. Even if its a habit from BW, it helps (a little bit) so you can have maybe a few seconds earlier of something else.
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Jesus i had no idea upgrades gave money back if the building is destroyed...
I guess i never really thought about it after years of BW.
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Could also be a tactical choice with regards to a fast tech switch after certain buildings and units were scouted to throw the opponent off. Later upgrade costs can equal any entirely new building and tech path if funds are redirected. So while you don't get the upgrade, your opponent may have no initial answer to your new surprise unit composition or quantity of units.
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I thought all the resources were lost just like when a building is destroyed. Hahaha, I freaked out a few times because I forgot to cancel overlord drop.
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On July 11 2011 09:08 JediGamer wrote:
Good form and sometimes it can be the difference in a new warpin or something like that. It isn't that they need to benefit from it every time, but they don't want to skimp in another area because during times that upgrades are cancelled there is usually a good deal of pressure too.
yup u got it. sometimes when u just could use those extra minerals a bit faster by canceling an upgrade. especially if it is expensive.
IMO: they need to make it so that if u do not cancel u do not get refunded!!!
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You get the gas/min back. But what really gets me is that commentators(day9 and DJwheat comes in mind) sometimes say ''Omg he did not cancel his upgrade before the building was destroyed'' which can trick others.
Sorry for my bad english.
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On July 11 2011 09:48 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:48 CurLy[] wrote:
Okay.. didn't know that.
But units qued up you still lose money right?
Right ?? No and it was still the same in BW and W3.
Really? All this time I thought I was so pro cancelling my colossus or something
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Habit from Brood War most likely.
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It is refunded. But most likely habit from BW
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On July 11 2011 10:31 CurLy[] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:48 windsupernova wrote:On July 11 2011 09:48 CurLy[] wrote:
Okay.. didn't know that.
But units qued up you still lose money right?
Right ?? No and it was still the same in BW and W3. Really? All this time I thought I was so pro cancelling my colossus or something
Well its still a good habit, you can instantly funnel those resources into other stuff.And I am pretty sure you lose some money in upgrades
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Just tested both bw and sc2.
bw
100% refund on units in queue (including the current one in production)
75% refund on upgrades
sc2
100% refund on both.
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Yep, habit fro... BUT IT'S THE SAME IN BW!
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On July 11 2011 10:53 L3gendary wrote:
Just tested both bw and sc2.
bw
100% refund on units in queue (including the current one in production)
75% refund on upgrades
sc2
100% refund on both.
The heck... I would've bet my life a building destroyed while researching upgrades gave back 100% (in bw) but I just tested it myself and it certainly does not.
edit: For real, I'm doubting my whole life now. Did they change this in a patch or something? It's odd so many people recall it being a 100% refund. Gonna investigate. Can't find any mention of it in the patch notes I found.
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Probably a knee jerk response from Broodwar where gameplay was much less forgiving. >: (
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Why they do it, i am unsure, the only benefit I can see from it is if you need the money right away for production elsewhere.
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Lol so many people thinking you don't get the money back :S
I think it's mainly old habits
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If you know that the building is going to die, you might as well get the money back beforehand to spend on units to kill the drop
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Why don't we ask one of the pros?
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side note: just like how some strategy forum pros' posts are highlighted blue (or did that change?), the blatantly false statements should also be pointed out so that people dont get confused... but that might take a lot of work because of the amount of misinformation going around
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Hm interesting, Starcraft 2 is my first real RTS but I was under the impression that upgrades don't get refunded from casts and things like that. Good to know.
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On July 11 2011 09:13 Gnax wrote:
If you crash your car and could chose to get your insurance money before the car is about to crash or after a few weeks, what would you chose?
Best example ever.
Also I think by consciously canceling the upgrades your brain will remember you have that extra 100-ish minerals refunded, instead of automatic refund which you might forget it later on.
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There is NO point in cancelling the upgrade, I think I've seen pros cancel and they manage to save the building, only to restart the upgrade.
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On July 11 2011 09:16 Wiwiweb wrote:
Units gets refunded. Upgrades gets refunded. Destroying a pylon refunds the warping in units. Even morphing zerg units gets the morphing cost refunded if the cocoon is destroyed.
The ONLY thing that doesn't get refunded after being destroyed is buildings.
Wait, killing (not canceling) a cocoon grants a refund?
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yeah i do it too. Just a broodwar habit.
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 11 2011 10:53 L3gendary wrote:
Just tested both bw and sc2.
bw
100% refund on units in queue (including the current one in production)
75% refund on upgrades
sc2
100% refund on both.
Whoa - i usually cancel because i thought if you lost the building you lost the investment with it. But i guess not. Thanks for the revelation though
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On July 11 2011 09:13 LuckyFool wrote:
So they can use the resources half a second faster? No reason to not cancel it if your fast enough.
There is times when a player cancels an upgrade and then the building lives with 1% health left. In this case you have lost the time investment and opened up timing windows that would not have been there otherwise.
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I have heard several pros and commentators talk about cancelling upgrades/units before the building is destroyed to get money back. I hope this thread clears it up for them. :D
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On July 11 2011 09:13 Gnax wrote:
If you crash your car and could chose to get your insurance money before the car is about to crash or after a few weeks, what would you chose?
You mean after the car crashes. You are bad at making examples that relate to the question at hand.
Also it is 100% because the players do not know for certain that the money will be refunded.
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Even tasteless has made this mistake during casting of the gsl. definitely a facepalm moment but yes, you do get money back if the upgrade/unit is destroyed midway
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old habits definately.
it's like denying units in sc2 even though it isn't wc3 or something like that.
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It seems like the downside to cancelling (having to start over if the building doesn't go down) is much bigger than the upside (use minerals faster). Doesn't seem like a great idea.
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On July 11 2011 09:12 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:10 DarkEnergy wrote:
As far as i know you do not get the minerals and gas back for the upgrade if the building is destroyed wile upgrading. So that being true it is only logical otherwise its lost. ye it doesn't get refunded man, same with units, you also don't get refunded the price once the building got destroyed.
yes, it does get refunded...
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On July 11 2011 12:39 Blackrobe wrote:
I have heard several pros and commentators talk about cancelling upgrades/units before the building is destroyed to get money back. I hope this thread clears it up for them. :D
Well casters sometimes tend to exaggerate a lot of stuff for the sake of hyping the match. I think in one of his dailies Day9 said that he sometimes makes a huge deal over small stuff.
Dunno about pros, but considering this thread this seems hardly common knowledge
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On July 11 2011 12:39 Blackrobe wrote:
I have heard several pros and commentators talk about cancelling upgrades/units before the building is destroyed to get money back. I hope this thread clears it up for them. :D
I'm not really hardcore SC2 gamer nowadays, but still watch a lot of streams (GSL, GSTL, NASL). And I remember that in one of NASL streams, tastosis did that. "Does he cancel the upgrades .. bla bla .. ".
Hmm, really a revelation, after playing SC1, WC3, and now SC2, I never know that it gets refunded, lol. Not that it really matter though, in my skill level, I never remember to cancel it anyway :D
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On July 11 2011 09:12 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
You might get it back, but the faster you cancel it the faster you can put that money to use elsewhere.. that's how i look at it atleast..
I would only do that if you're for sure that the building is going to die though :D
That's what I see too. Why wait 10 seconds to get your money back when you can get it back now and start another Forge or make another Stalker.
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EPT
