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twndomn
401 Posts
Sen seemed disappointed, upon receiving Dustin's response. Idra, Sen tried his best for Zerg, alright? Issues are still mostly about balance. For lazy people, here's quick summary: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231621¤tpage=2 | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
edit: not that it matters anyway, we have it now... but after watching the first part it just seems totally counter-productive for Blizzard to invite Sen, out of ALL the talented zergs in the world, to voice their opinion on behalf of the zerg race. There are very apparent language barriers throughout the entire interview. | ||
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twndomn
401 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:28 birdkicker wrote: I don't see sen anywhere in the video. 7:18, the Asian with glasses on the right is Sen. | ||
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Shirolol
England504 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:28 birdkicker wrote: I don't see sen anywhere in the video. Oh yes as someone pointed out at 7:18 he is the guy on the right. | ||
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Motat
315 Posts
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awu25
United States2003 Posts
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Shirolol
England504 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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Kelberot
Brazil364 Posts
also it seems like dustin didnt undersand sen's question, he was asking about close positions and not any specific maps. Oh well.. [edit] nvm he answers it later in the video, pretty cool answer | ||
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DNA61289
United States665 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Wihl
Sweden472 Posts
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Thugtronik
New Zealand452 Posts
<3 | ||
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philly5man
United Kingdom356 Posts
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Kelberot
Brazil364 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:29 PR4Y wrote: where did you get this interview? o.O edit: not that it matters anyway, we have it now... but after watching the first part it just seems totally counter-productive for Blizzard to invite Sen, out of ALL the talented zergs in the world, to voice their opinion on behalf of the zerg race. There are very apparent language barriers throughout the entire interview. ... I think that they are interviewing dustin browder in taiwan and wanted sen to be a part of it, not just trying to find a good zerg for feedback. | ||
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Shirolol
England504 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:39 Kelberot wrote: also it seems like dustin didnt undersand sen's question, he was asking about close positions and not any specific maps. Oh well.. He very clearly answered it in the exact same answer he talked about specific maps. Did you blackout momentarily during the interview and miss it or what? | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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twndomn
401 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:45 Kelberot wrote: ... I think that they are interviewing dustin browder in taiwan and wanted sen to be a part of it, not just trying to find a good zerg for feedback. No, the interview is at Blizzard HQ, in CA, USA. Blizzard held a closed Alpha/Beta and invited some Pro-gamers and reporters to give feedback. Some of those reporters are mainland Chinese while some are Taiwanese. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
how do you balance the game: we use pro feedbacks, forums, and stat Balance process: we have to make sure the balance problem is real, then the balance design team will suggest a fix, if the suggestion solve the problem (should be through test sever), we will apply it to the game Stat are garther accross bnet and tournament around the world. Currently winrate of all match up are close to 50% so we are satisfied. There is no obvious problem but we are ready to deal with anything pop up. The only recent change is to the 4 gate nerf in PvP to create more play styles. Early indication show that it was a successful patch. Sen asked: close spawn on maps are zerg imba, is ther solution? we will fix it in the "next season"(?) with half of the current ladder map will be replaced. Zerg too passive due to design? there is no way for us to know how pros playing the game. there are cases pros fixed things b4 the patch came out. There will be no big change coming out, at least not until HoTS came out. If we find a race is broken, we will most likely to fix it in HoTS. The chance of it being fixed in wings is really small. Ladder maps are for all players so we intentionally have rush maps in ladder pool. So people in lower league can learn the game. We aware that this will cause pros wont have as much fun on ladder as casual gamers but we have confident that the community wont use the maps that dont work for them in tournaments play. a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design? no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol) but the rush are stronger than BW we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same. (i cant really hear the question here, the woman speak in low voice =_=) something about HoTS we dont know yet, we are trying to make something that is worthy with this name and to last many years to come... (they tried some kinda trick questions to make dustin reveal new units in HoTS multi) no we have no idea, we had some horrible stupid units in the pass like the Soul Hunter for example. We still discussing about it. do you have a timetable to anounce new units? we dont know yet, we will when we have a good idea. "its done when its done" it is confirmed that we will have new units in multi players. yes are they being added or replace we dont know yet beside new units whats gona change in multi players dont know, sorry are you know but you are just avoiding? no, im truely dont know. i have some personal idea but my team could think its stupid. We will reveal it in blizzcon. about starcraft 2 dota... you mean blizzard dota yes, people asking when is it gona be releash we are wasting time, when its ready! is there anything speacial about this map u wana talk about? its gona be awesome. we are working on the shops. we are recreating the heros completely new from last blizzcon. new systems, new features, new gameplay. we are hoping a game will be 20-30 minutes long compare to normal dota 30-45 minutes so that you can play more games. all heros from last year has changed? yes will you borrow stuff from war3 to dota? no,we are trying to design something new completely. the inventory and shop system still there but will be different. We dont know yet but we still working on it. will there a cross region feature for GM in different sever? our current technology does not allow us to do that just yet. We will look into it but unlikely. do you think sc2 is harder to watch compare to BW? unit clumps and AoE spell... (they tried to link this to balance design) unit clums means not "horrible pathing". For mordern RTS we NEED good pathing and we think its the future. Its is true that its harder to see if unit clumps but we are trying our best to solve that with the UI. About the AoE, i feel like it makes the battle much more fun to watch (micro challenging). If you dont think Sc2 is a good game to watch, BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you. for different players skill are different. in sc2 every units DPS are higher than BW. this make battle happen too fast for lower league. Why dont we adjust the game according to player players? We thought about this but its better to learn the game from the beginning. The exp could be accumulated over time. If you need to learn something, we want you to learn the game as what it is. more newer player we have added stuff to help them in the single players as well as practice league. We tried to relies mostly on tool to help people improve quickly in lower league. Some question about the percentage of zerg workers (drone) compare to BW... calculation no, its just what player doing and its not intentional design. infact we expect that question when we decided we will have 2 gas geyser instead of 1 but it turns out ok... picture taking, hand shaking etc... edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback edit2: done! | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! | ||
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twndomn
401 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:47 archonOOid wrote: Can you release an edited version (English only version)? As I don't speak Chinese about half of the video is pretty uninteresting for me. 1. I don't own the footage; the reporter is from Razer Taiwan office, you should ask him on his YouTube channel, not me. 2. Why don't you learn another language? It's your personal problem, no one is obligated to do any editing for you for free. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
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Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
Ladder maps are for all players so we intentionally have rush maps in ladder pool. So people in lower league can learn the game. We aware that this will cause pros wont have as much fun on ladder as casual gamers but we have confident that the community wont use the maps that dont work for them in tournaments play. Sadface, I have no idea why they won't consider different maps for different leagues... | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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randplaty
205 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! Hahha yeah, that's pretty big news... new terrain mechanics for HoTS. I wonder what they will be. | ||
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reprise
Canada316 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:44 philly5man wrote: Just watched the first part and it raises the question - why isn't there a different map pool for Masters league and above? It separates the community, and would be a little wonky for Diamond players being matched with Masters players. Completely different map pools would mean Diamond players never face Masters players, and somewhat similar map pools would result in Diamond players facing Masters players on the same few maps only. | ||
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R3m3mb3rM3
Germany954 Posts
shouldnt toss be the race who should be challenged to get higher apm? i saw like morrow calling toss not challenging enough or goody stated that he considerd switching to toss since hes a low apm player mhhh well im still looking forward to new mechanics and hots <3 | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
I don't want this to happen. I don't want HoTS to happen. =( | ||
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Pelopidas
Canada225 Posts
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Shirolol
England504 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:56 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: why does terran get new mechanics? shouldnt toss be the race who should be challenged to get higher apm? You're joking right? No one mentioned terran.  | ||
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Soulmate
Japan138 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? Exemple : Everyone is playing random PvT = 100% winrate PvZ = 0% winrate ZvT = 50% winrate Is the average winrate equal to 50% ? Yes Is the game balanced ? No If the matchmaking takes your race and the race of your opponent into account then yeah, you would have 50% in all MU. | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:56 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: why does terran get new mechanics? shouldnt toss be the race who should be challenged to get higher apm? i saw like morrow calling toss not challenging enough or goody stated that he considerd switching to toss since hes a low apm player mhhh well im still looking forward to new mechanics and hots <3 He said Terrain mechanics, not terran. Like, the 33% chance of missing when shooting up to highground in brood war. | ||
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SuperStyle
United States976 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:57 Talin wrote: Terrain "mechanics"? New units? I don't want this to happen. I don't want HoTS to happen. =( Terrain isnt the same thing as Terran. | ||
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? Yes, you are interpreting it wrong. He enumerated different ways they get their information to balance, and one of them being stats from battle.net. And you being around 50% doesn't mean a lot, but that with your ranking, with all of your matches, the matchup it was, did you win, what skill was the opponent, etc.. That means a lot. And again, as it's only one of the means to get their information, and never said how important b.net stats were in the whole process. | ||
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lurked
Canada918 Posts
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:56 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: why does terran get new mechanics? shouldnt toss be the race who should be challenged to get higher apm? i saw like morrow calling toss not challenging enough or goody stated that he considerd switching to toss since hes a low apm player mhhh well im still looking forward to new mechanics and hots <3 Terrain == Landscape for engrish purposes... | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
I'm aware of that, yes. Doesn't make the idea any better. =P | ||
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twndomn
401 Posts
Lots of data modelings and complicated algorithms. Leave it to computer scientists, engineers, and mathematicians. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? Battlenet wants you around 50% winrate overall not against each race. IE: lets suppose you play 10 games: 1.TvP-Win 2.TvZ-Loss 3.TvT-Loss 4.TvT-win 5.TvP-Loss 6.TvP-Loss 7.TvZ-Win 8.TvP-Loss 9.TvT-Win 10.TvZ-win In this (made up)example you are at a 50% winrate but in each matchup you are: TvZ:66% TvT:66% TvP:25% Well, just a way to say that overall winrate !=matchup winrate | ||
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RmoteCntrld
United States596 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:29 PR4Y wrote: where did you get this interview? o.O edit: not that it matters anyway, we have it now... but after watching the first part it just seems totally counter-productive for Blizzard to invite Sen, out of ALL the talented zergs in the world, to voice their opinion on behalf of the zerg race. There are very apparent language barriers throughout the entire interview. He was most likely invited to represent Taiwan. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote: sum up for people lazy of loading the video: edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback Thanks I happen to be one of those lazy people  I like how they answered the questions, especially the part about Zergs being or not passive as design. I mean anyone who has designed anything knows that people will always use it in some unintended way you can't predict, especially something like this game where there are a lot of variables | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
Browder said he was not aware of that and he thought in his own experiences that rushes are very risky but that he would bring that feedback to the balance team. He also said that BW was a different game with different mechanics when they decided to move to this new game engine and that there would be no way to imitate BW and that rushes are more common in SC2 due to the fact that the mechanics are easier. It seemed to me that Browder was content with rushes being easier in SC2 than BW and that that part was not going to change. I think that's HUGE that Browder confirmed that rushes (and all-ins) are easier and more common in SC2. This has huge implications on the pro scene and the metagame. Up until now a lot of pros have been advocating for a macro style play as just being better than timing rush or all-in style of play. If the game engine is dictating that all-in styles will be better in SC2, that could and should change a lot of progaming philosophy. | ||
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Frugalicious
United States121 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:09 windsupernova wrote: Battlenet wants you around 50% winrate overall not against each race. IE: lets suppose you play 10 games: 1.TvP-Win 2.TvZ-Loss 3.TvT-Loss 4.TvT-win 5.TvP-Loss 6.TvP-Loss 7.TvZ-Win 8.TvP-Loss 9.TvT-Win 10.TvZ-win In this (made up)example you are at a 50% winrate but in each matchup you are: TvZ:66% TvT:66% TvP:25% Well, just a way to say that overall winrate !=matchup winrate In the past I do recall Blizzard stating that its based on individual matchup stats such as TvZ: 50% TvP: 50% ZvP: 50% The ladder is geared towards everyone having approximately 50% winrate, but their (older) statistics reflected something similar for each individual matchup. I have not seen any recent releases on their stats, but they have mentioned in several interviews its close enough to 50% per each MU. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
In fact, why don't they just let players choose what league to play in? This would really minimize the whole smurfing thing without having to run the ladder like a communist regime. Of course there would still be some fools who purposely play at lower leagues for the sake of noob bashing, but isn't that sort of expected anyway? It would just be so much nicer if there was more choice involved in the ladder, especially in name choosing. (This coming from someone who has only played some SC2 long ago at a friend's house.) Perhaps you could even be given the choice between a strictly managed ladder and an alternative free ladder. Surely some would choose the latter. Choice just seems to be very low on Blizzard's priority list in general for some reason. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
Even tho mapmakers could introduce all kinds of Terrain mechanics on their own - which btw they did with disappearing or destructible watchtowers - if new mechanics are introduced by Blizzard it'll be way more official and accepted. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
maybe obstacles for air units? Xelnaga warpgates (teleportation gateway) Moving map parts? (imagine two orbiting gold expos!) Areas of the map where you are more vulnerable (ie: if you choose to take the shortcut to atk you place yourself at a disadvantages position that is easy to defend and take extra dmg)? | ||
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RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
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love.less
United Kingdom293 Posts
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SilverJohnny
United States885 Posts
Browder looked so shocked when he was informed that there was like 50% rushes lol. | ||
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? Because different people play different races and are randomly selected to play each other. So if your a zerg player, and your stomping people, you will be promoted. If they notice that 50% of all players play one race, and they win more than 50% of their games that might show imbalance. He even said thats just part of the equation as well, they just look at the numbers, and compare them to how they feel about their own play experience, and the experience of the pro's. So yes, your win rate should be 50% because of matchmaking, but because not everyone is playing the same race, and matchmaking tries to put you against even opponents, you can still look at balance by seeings the number of players playing each race at every level of play, think about why that is, and determine some kind of balance from that. I hope I explained that okay. + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On June 09 2011 08:15 zobz wrote: If the Blizzard team are so concerned about making maps that are balanced for each seperate skill level, why don't they just have a different map pool for each ladder league? This would even give the opportunity for master/grandmaster players to practice and get ranked for their play on real tournament maps, as well as have lots of fun maps and extra simplified maps for newbie players. In fact, why don't they just let players choose what league to play in? This would really minimize the whole smurfing thing without having to run the ladder like a communist regime. Of course there would still be some fools who purposely play at lower leagues for the sake of noob bashing, but isn't that sort of expected anyway? It would just be so much nicer if there was more choice involved in the ladder, especially in name choosing. (This coming from someone who has only played some SC2 long ago at a friend's house.) Perhaps you could even be given the choice between a strictly managed ladder and an alternative free ladder. Surely some would choose the latter. Choise just seems to be very low on Blizzard's priority list in general for some reason.[/QUOTE You can still pick maps at tournaments. If you don't know how to play on a small map, and your opponent does, you still lose the tournament because of it. The ladder should not be your only tool to improve. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:24 RuneZerg wrote: "thats the first time ive heard that rushes are easy and safe" - Dustin Browder, never been 2 raxed :D My Chinese is not good... but maybe Sen was referring to all-ins and it was translated as "rushes?" I'm not sure if that would have made a difference in Browder's mind. | ||
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
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randplaty
205 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:24 RuneZerg wrote: "thats the first time ive heard that rushes are easy and safe" - Dustin Browder, never been 2 raxed :D Didn't he call 2 Rax a trash strategy? | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
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NoScary
United States151 Posts
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote: sum up for people lazy of loading the video: edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback Damn they actually listen to the forums (most likely BNet) for balance lol So Thors/Rays/BCs/Stim etc really did get nerfed for the gutter leagues. Also lol at no technology for cross region, it worked fine in SC1 and WC3. | ||
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:57 Talin wrote: Terrain "mechanics"? New units? I don't want this to happen. I don't want HoTS to happen. =( You're honestly complaining about something we have absolutely zero information about? And what's wrong with new units? Did Brood War suck because they introduced new units? Use your head. Also wish daft people like the poster above me would stop taking the interview (which is repeated every year at Blizzcon) out of context and suggesting that all Blizzard balance is based on forum comments. They said it's one of their sources of community feedback. One. Of many. One. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! built in bunkers that only terran can use. | ||
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crabz
227 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! lmao | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:13 randplaty wrote: Really interesting stuff about Sen (or somebody else?) saying that rushes are much more common on ladder... up to 50% than in BW. Rushes have much less risk than in BW. Browder said he was not aware of that and he thought in his own experiences that rushes are very risky but that he would bring that feedback to the balance team. He honestly thinks that? As a zerg player, I disagree wholeheartedly | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? 50% in total, not 50% in each matchup. | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:05 Mercury- wrote:Also lol at no technology for cross region, it worked fine in SC1 and WC3. I say they should let the community write the network code if they don't think they can do it on their own. Edit: Sorry for double post, didn't think. -.- | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:13 randplaty wrote: Really interesting stuff about Sen (or somebody else?) saying that rushes are much more common on ladder... up to 50% than in BW. Rushes have much less risk than in BW. Browder said he was not aware of that and he thought in his own experiences that rushes are very risky but that he would bring that feedback to the balance team. kinda funny that Browder isn't aware of that. | ||
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tuho133
120 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
Rocks spreading like creep is what got me. Well done sir. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
What the fuck? Tell me I heard that incorrectly. | ||
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felizuno
United States164 Posts
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OhNoItsTheMunch
United States96 Posts
This could have been a great opportunity for Bliz to get some insight into (my opinion but I know I'm not alone) most design flawed race and make huge improvements in HotS. We will see blizz... We will see. | ||
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MuteZephyr
Lithuania448 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! This genuinely made me lol ...though knowing I still remember that BNet poll on whether or not people like rocks and where. The survey result was a resounding "FFFFUUUUU ROCKS" and Blizz chose to spite everybody and release their new set of maps with even more rocks. EDIT: LOL, no technology for cross-region... Everybody knows that's a huge pile of crap. WC3 and BW were not beamed in from the future. Blizz should just come out and say they want the extra money, they're not fooling anybody. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! GOLD ROCKS! XEL NAGA ROCKS! | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:40 MuteZephyr wrote: This genuinely made me lol ...though knowing I still remember that BNet poll on whether or not people like rocks and where. The survey result was a resounding "FFFFUUUUU ROCKS" and Blizz chose to spite everybody and release their new set of maps with even more rocks. EDIT: LOL, no technology for cross-region... Everybody knows that's a huge pile of crap. WC3 and BW were not beamed in from the future. Blizz should just come out and say they want the extra money, they're not fooling anybody. Rocks are David Kims fetish. I don't know why browder always gets the whole shitstorm, because everytime i hear / read something from him it's very reasonable and open minded. I think it's a bit unfair that he always gets called out D: | ||
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:40 MuteZephyr wrote: EDIT: LOL, no technology for cross-region... Everybody knows that's a huge pile of crap. WC3 and BW were not beamed in from the future. Blizz should just come out and say they want the extra money, they're not fooling anybody. Just because you can run queries on tables in MS Access doesn't mean you can do it in MS Word. Point I'm making is they're separate applications and just because it's the same company, doesn't mean the technology is compatible without building it again from scratch. So many frustratingly stupid posts in this thread. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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Nuttyguy
United Kingdom1526 Posts
MUST SACRIFICE CC BEFORE CLOSE MINING + Show Spoiler + lol MMA | ||
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countwaltz
United States6 Posts
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
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Whynaut
Canada367 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:40 MuteZephyr wrote: I still remember that BNet poll on whether or not people like rocks and where. The survey result was a resounding "FFFFUUUUU ROCKS" and Blizz chose to spite everybody and release their new set of maps with even more rocks. EDIT: LOL, no technology for cross-region... Everybody knows that's a huge pile of crap. WC3 and BW were not beamed in from the future. Blizz should just come out and say they want the extra money, they're not fooling anybody. Cross region play via centralized B.net servers != Cross region play via distributed p2p connection. BW technology is better in terms of latency, but is nearly impossible to prevent piracy. This is especially relevant since Blizzard tied the SC2 CD to a B.net account, rather than limiting the number of installs. If they were to implement cross server play via p2p tech, parallel ladders (not requiring massive server farms) would quickly spawn (see BW), which would bypass the B.net infrastructure (and hence the 1 account per CD verification). Enforcement is probably something Blizzard can't deal with (see all piracy, anywhere). This would essentially mean that Blizzard would have given away SC2 for free. Surely you don't hold them to that standard? | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! Spat my water out at the thought of bigger rocks x__x | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:52 Elefanto wrote: Rocks are David Kims fetish. I don't know why browder always gets the whole shitstorm, because everytime i hear / read something from him it's very reasonable and open minded. I think it's a bit unfair that he always gets called out D: He is the one who does more interviews, the community of course, instead of being happy that he is open with us, direct the collect nerd rage against him. Well, I guess that comes from being the guy who does interviews. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:52 Elefanto wrote: Rocks are David Kims fetish. I don't know why browder always gets the whole shitstorm, because everytime i hear / read something from him it's very reasonable and open minded. I think it's a bit unfair that he always gets called out D: He's the face of SC2 development, he's going to get shit even if his changes make the game perfect, a la "why didn't you do this earlier! grumblegrumble" People need to remember that Blizzard has a vast array of tools at their disposal to deal with game balance, more than any spectator, commentator or progamer. Blizzard also cares about their games and want to make them the best out there. Even so haters gonna hate, and anything Blizzard does will upset someone. They have their visions for SC2 and won't mess with it on a whim because of one person's input. But like Browder constantly kept saying: they accept feedback from everyone, just not everyone's feedback is important to developing the game. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
He said something about 2 rax and bringing all your scvs was trash and would be fixed if needed. That was back in January I believe. | ||
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
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Khanz
France214 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! sir, you made my day ! I find the interviewers hard to follow sometimes, GOGO SEN ! | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:55 Ksyper wrote: In BW workers mined 8 minerals per trip, in SC2 they mine 5 minerals per trip, how did blizzard not anticipate that that would bloat the worker numbers, wtb 250 supply! The income is the same, SC2 workers just mine faster. This is bad though because it flattens the income curve, so taking extra bases doesn't increase income until saturation. It's not really improved worker AI as such, its more to do with the fact that workers will return as soon as a worker arrives. Try lengthening the mining time and workers will start to glitch out. The longer workers stay at a patch the more powerful expanding becomes, because now the amount of patches you have also becomes a resource. There is a problem with double gas though. For a race like Zerg which is gas bound rather than mineral bound, it wastes a lot of supply mining gas. | ||
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
there's only a slim chance that they find the same amount of success as the first dota, dunno why they are focusing so much on just a mod | ||
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jinixxx123
543 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Coutcha
Canada519 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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coolcor
520 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:03 Whynaut wrote: Cross region play via centralized B.net servers != Cross region play via distributed p2p connection. BW technology is better in terms of latency, but is nearly impossible to prevent piracy. This is especially relevant since Blizzard tied the SC2 CD to a B.net account, rather than limiting the number of installs. If they were to implement cross server play via p2p tech, parallel ladders (not requiring massive server farms) would quickly spawn (see BW), which would bypass the B.net infrastructure (and hence the 1 account per CD verification). Enforcement is probably something Blizzard can't deal with (see all piracy, anywhere). This would essentially mean that Blizzard would have given away SC2 for free. Surely you don't hold them to that standard? But how much do the centralized b.net servers cost to run for the entire lifetime of starcraft 2? If it is more then the profit from every pirate who buys the game because they can't pirate then blizzard is actually losing money to give customers a subpar experience. Are you sure enough pirates will convert to make it worth while these massive server farms sound expensive. The sc2 single player can be pirated is blizzard essentially giving away the single player for free? That sounds really generous of them. Sounds like they shouldn't make that part then how can they make money on something they are giving away for free you can't hold them to that standard. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:03 Whynaut wrote: Cross region play via centralized B.net servers != Cross region play via distributed p2p connection. BW technology is better in terms of latency, but is nearly impossible to prevent piracy. This is especially relevant since Blizzard tied the SC2 CD to a B.net account, rather than limiting the number of installs. If they were to implement cross server play via p2p tech, parallel ladders (not requiring massive server farms) would quickly spawn (see BW), which would bypass the B.net infrastructure (and hence the 1 account per CD verification). Enforcement is probably something Blizzard can't deal with (see all piracy, anywhere). This would essentially mean that Blizzard would have given away SC2 for free. Surely you don't hold them to that standard? And yet, somehow, blizzard has the technology to allow SEA connect to NA. But for NA to connect to SEA? Impossible! | ||
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Gurgl
Sweden308 Posts
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OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:56 Coutcha wrote: Need subtitle lol if you watched, theres a translator and browder certainly doesnt speak mandarin. | ||
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OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:28 Energizer wrote: And yet, somehow, blizzard has the technology to allow SEA connect to NA. But for NA to connect to SEA? Impossible! what? you get the same technology to connect NA to SEA if you buy another SEA account. | ||
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Maskedsatyr
Singapore1245 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:34 Motat wrote: I don't understand how they base some of there balance on win loss of races. The way battle.net matchmaking is setup, everyone will always have around a 50% win loss. Am I interpreting it wrong, or what? Yea everyone is supposed to have around a 50% win rate but they don't take into account each of your matchup. | ||
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jinixxx123
543 Posts
Also lets make up something and say that indeed there is 50% rushes, a better following question tot that would be, of the 50% how much do you think are really successful from that 50%, they cant help it if ppl want to all in all the time. Does nestea watch bitbybit prime and say, Hey cut the cheese you bad player , i cant beat you. NO, hes more like bring whatever you have bitbybit, you suck. I thought the question was pretty stupid cause theres a whole lot of other factors that need to be looked at. if you die to rushes alot, stop being so greedy? , refine your build orders to be safe to rushes?.. Like honestly, alot of zergs complain about rush, but do you really have to go hatch first? You took a risk.. anyway , just saying, i thought it was lame they tired to present something as a problem which i have not seen and im an avid watcher of gsl, im also in masters league...... so thats pretty strange. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
EDIT: i learned absolutely nothing for the first half of the video, so i just gave up watching. this must be in taiwan (couldn't detect the lisp, but if it were in mainland, i bet there would be more crap with officialdom and power difference). dustin really just repeats what he had made known before elsewhere. | ||
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
plz plz plz be 50% mischance on high ground and 33% miss on ramps. Plz bring back defender's advantage. No derailing or BW v SC2 discussion. Just hoping that this will happen. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:31 travis wrote: As critical as I am of blizzard's balancing - they still show they care a lot and I appreciate it. kinda funny that Browder isn't aware of that. It might be that their definition of rush is different though. | ||
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Lunchador
United States776 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:55 Ksyper wrote: In BW workers mined 8 minerals per trip, in SC2 they mine 5 minerals per trip, how did blizzard not anticipate that that would bloat the worker numbers, wtb 250 supply! BW workers also mine about 60% slower than SC2 workers, making each worker equal value to each other. The main difference is 2 geyser deal. Seriously, go back and play BW for a sec. Workers mine slooooooooooooooooooooowwww. | ||
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whaty0uwant
New Zealand346 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:47 archonOOid wrote: Can you release an edited version (English only version)? As I don't speak Chinese about half of the video is pretty uninteresting for me. Ok your majesty. We'll get right on to that.. How incredibly rude of you. | ||
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AxelTVx
Canada916 Posts
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whaty0uwant
New Zealand346 Posts
Maybe work on the campaign as a storyboard editor/screen writer... He should definitely not be, the game designer. | ||
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Nik0
Uruguay460 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:44 DongWang wrote: I fail to see how Dustin is qualified to design a game. He doesn't have a computer science degree, a art/graphics design degree or any degree/qualification that is useful towards game design and development.. He has a degree in English literature. What the fuck, does that have to do with game design? If anything he should be the dialogue/text editor. Maybe work on the campaign as a storyboard editor/screen writer... He should definitely not be, the game designer. He's in charge of the creative, not technical aspect of the game. | ||
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whaty0uwant
New Zealand346 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:49 AndAgain wrote: He's in charge of the creative, not technical aspect of the game. Ok I suppose that''s reasonable, I guess he should know how to spell correctly and write a good essay. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Verator
United States283 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:49 AndAgain wrote: He's in charge of the creative, not technical aspect of the game. And man, Sen, Idra, Nestea, Boxer, MC, MVP, none of them have cs or arts degrees or useful degrees! They should have no say on game design either! Because clearly you need a degree in videogames to make videogames. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:24 RuneZerg wrote: "thats the first time ive heard that rushes are easy and safe" - Dustin Browder, never been 2 raxed :D 2 rax is not a rush. It's a calculated and proper response to a Zerg who wants to get an early economic advantage. It's may be safe, but how well it works depends on how well both the Zerg and Terran player control their units, make decisions, etc. I think something more like going 2port banshee on 1 base and denying any overlords would fit the idea of a safe and easy rush. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:22 coolcor wrote: But how much do the centralized b.net servers cost to run for the entire lifetime of starcraft 2? Blizzard could easily "pull the plug" and then all we could do was play the campaign. Or maybe a natural desaster / terrorist / power outage kills their servers for a significant time ... In short: the centralized server idea is bad, but I think they will release LAN once the sales drop off significantly (after the last expansion) and let things run their course. Any centralized organization is easily neutralized, but a decentralized one is hard to fully remove ever. If Starcraft 2 is to become a massive eSport we need the second one, but for now it works ok due to Blizzard "pushing the cart" (the GSL) with some sponsorship. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On June 09 2011 14:09 Scila wrote: Depends on the map, on some maps its just pressure to expand, but on some smaller maps and close positions it is definitely a rush and it can be brutal, also depending on rax timings 11/11 is going to hit harder and be more aggressive then 12/14.2 rax is not a rush. It's a calculated and proper response to a Zerg who wants to get an early economic advantage. It's may be safe, but how well it works depends on how well both the Zerg and Terran player control their units, make decisions, etc. I think something more like going 2port banshee on 1 base and denying any overlords would fit the idea of a safe and easy rush. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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coolcor
520 Posts
On June 09 2011 14:12 Rabiator wrote: Blizzard could easily "pull the plug" and then all we could do was play the campaign. Or maybe a natural desaster / terrorist / power outage kills their servers for a significant time ... In short: the centralized server idea is bad, but I think they will release LAN once the sales drop off significantly (after the last expansion) and let things run their course. Any centralized organization is easily neutralized, but a decentralized one is hard to fully remove ever. If Starcraft 2 is to become a massive eSport we need the second one, but for now it works ok due to Blizzard "pushing the cart" (the GSL) with some sponsorship. Will peer to peer network let people pirate stuff from the map marketplace? That is probably what blizzard is counting on to pay for the servers after the last expansion so I don't think LAN is guaranteed eventually. | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:57 OopsOopsBaby wrote: what? you get the same technology to connect NA to SEA if you buy another SEA account. I think he means how you don't need to buy an NA account if you bought the SEA copy of the game to play on the NA servers. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:44 DongWang wrote: I fail to see how Dustin is qualified to design a game. He doesn't have a computer science degree, a art/graphics design degree or any degree/qualification that is useful towards game design and development.. He has a degree in English literature. What the fuck, does that have to do with game design? If anything he should be the dialogue/text editor. Maybe work on the campaign as a storyboard editor/screen writer... He should definitely not be, the game designer. He has way more experience(he's been around the indsutry since 1995 IIRC) and you do know that many of the great minds in gaming don't have those degrees you think qualify people to design games? Gumpei Yokoi(creator of Metroid and the GameBoy) was a janitor FFS! This is a case where experience > formal education.I can look up more examples if you want, but I do know for a fact that many industry legends didn't really study for videogames because videogames was not really an established concept until more recently. Shigeru Miyamoto(another example) studied art and wanted to be a Mangaka originally. Seriously, you may not agree with his decisions but DB is quite qualified for game design LOL | ||
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:16 Dommk wrote: Would rather something like flat damage reduction with High Ground/Ramp advantage instead of miss chance This has been discussed in the past and there are pros and cons of both methods. With damage reduction the amount of hits a unit may live through may change in unexpected ways such as having no effect or just scaling strangely. For example an immortal shooting a seige tank can suffer a 20% reduction in damage and still kill the tank just as fast while the same immortal with a 20% miss chance will extend the life of that tank by 25% given a large sample size. (25% not 20%. If you have a 50% miss = 200% extended life, 100% miss equals = infinite effective health). Still looking forward to the new terrain mechanics I wish he would provide a schedule of the season start and end times. | ||
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GosuSheep
United States119 Posts
Shaquras Plateau has no close spawn. Metalopolis and Shattered Temple shouldn't either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They bounced around the point but didn't really discuss it. This makes me sooooo sad. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
Imagine the drama :D + he wouldn't have a problem with listing all his problems with sc2 in a 5min speech :D | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
This is really disappointing =/. | ||
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PeZuY
935 Posts
I hope they will do this internationally also, meaning that they would get Europeans opinion about the game, Koreans opinion about the game and Americas opinion aswell. | ||
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zZygote
Canada898 Posts
Sales doing bad in China/Taiwan or something? Browder really just shrugs questions that would really change the game. | ||
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tangwhat
New Zealand446 Posts
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
So, cut the rage... Good luck finding a video of similar effect to this from any other major game developer. <3 Blizzard Great vid. edit: just to make it more clear so I don't come off sounding like some "blizzard can do no wrong" fan boy, I genuinely believe Browder was being honest in his answers, and he raised a LOT of good points. When he disagreed with the power of rushes he said he would discuss it more (which is essentially his job, as a mediator.) When they complained about how its harder to watch, it was a good point that the pathing is much better and this naturally leads to more clumping. When they complained about it not being as good as BW, he pretty much flatout said BW is still there if you prefer it... Most of this thread is complaining about sc2 not being BW... and he has no problem with that. Take it or leave it. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
do you think sc2 is harder to watch compare to BW? unit clumps and AoE spell... (they tried to link this to balance design) unit clums means not "horrible pathing". For mordern RTS we NEED good pathing and we think its the future. Its is true that its harder to see if unit clumps but we are trying our best to solve that with the UI. About the AoE, i feel like it makes the battle much more fun to watch (micro challenging). If you dont think Sc2 is a good game to watch, BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you. Eh, I have mixed feelings about this stance, especially after reading through the thread about dynamic pathing some time ago. I think I read about this part of the interview on a Chinese site the night of the HotS preview embargo being lifted, and I guess the gist of this is that having powerful AoE punish unit clumps looks fun and is challenging to micro against. However, he does mention looking to fix this through "UI," which is an especially interesting statement. Would there be an auto-spread feature or a formation button? I'm interested to see how they resolve this issue. Also, it seems that Browder acknowledges that SC2 is not for everyone, especially die-hard BW enthusiasts. Play your preferred game, I suppose. | ||
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wankey
98 Posts
He keeps saying he's got nothing, or he's jack shit or he doens't know. It's frustrating to keep hearing this. His retorts are either this isn't SC1, it's SC2. If this game was designed as well as SC1, nobody would complain you dolt. Imagine if he said this instead: We recognize that the community has ABCDEFG issues with Zerg, Protoss, Terran. We understand that some might feel this towards that. So we are focusing our gaze onto these issues and hopefully solving them. We also know there are other issues with the game etc etc etc. But all he does is we know nothing, we have no good ideas yet. It pisses me off that he keeps going down this DERP approach. Lack of knowldge in everything doens't look good in leadership, especially if you're the PR guy. As far as this guy is concerned, the game is perfect, and Starcraft 2 is far from perfect. Yet he doesn't seem to see that. Sen speaks very politely and is given bullshit back. He said there is a huge consensus in the eSports community that there are problems with the game design. Yet Dustin just pokes fun at his numbers. To be honest, people have confused balance with game design. Starcraft 2 lacks in game design, not balance. Any game can be balanced through strategy and gameplay, but good game design is hard to come by. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:44 DongWang wrote: I fail to see how Dustin is qualified to design a game. He doesn't have a computer science degree, a art/graphics design degree or any degree/qualification that is useful towards game design and development.. He has a degree in English literature. What the fuck, does that have to do with game design? If anything he should be the dialogue/text editor. Maybe work on the campaign as a storyboard editor/screen writer... He should definitely not be, the game designer. he could just be smart. degree means jack shit if you're good. | ||
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Juffalo
United States155 Posts
ooohhhhh ggodddddd nooooooooooooooooooooo. The BNet forums are a terrible, terrible, terrible place | ||
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:27 wankey wrote: That's true, but he doesn't do a good job of being the face. Rob Pardo definitely obliterates any doubt that he's in charge. Dustin feels like he's simply a manager that's given too much PR responsibilty. He keeps saying he's got nothing, or he's jack shit or he doens't know. Imagine if he said this instead: We recognize that the community has ABCDEFG issues with Zerg, Protoss, Terran. We understand that some might feel this towards that. So we are focusing our gaze onto these issues and hopefully solving them. We also know there are other issues with the game etc etc etc. But all he does is we know nothing, we have no good ideas yet. It pisses me off that he keeps going down this DERP approach. Lack of knowldge in everything doens't look good in leadership, especially if you're the PR guy. As far as this guy is concerned, the game is perfect, and Starcraft 2 is far from perfect. Yet he doesn't seem to see that. Sen speaks very politely and is given bullshit back. He said there is a huge consensus in the eSports community that there are problems with the game design. Yet Dustin just pokes fun at his numbers. To be honest, people have confused balance with game design. Starcraft 2 lacks in game design, not balance. Any game can be balanced through strategy and gameplay, but good game design is hard to come by. Ah, but that's the catch 22 that blizzard has been down before with WoW. They say they are looking in to issue X or issue Y... and the fans take that as "OMG YES A FIX IS COMING AND ALL OUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!!!!! ^_^ xD" and then when it doesn't happen, there is rage, abuse, and a lot worse reaction than just saying "I dunno" in the first place. Sure, the mature, level-headed gamers and even (most) pro-gamers wont have that reaction, but the bottom line is the majority of SC2 fans aren't mature or level headed. Look at this forum 9 times out of 10... The amount of red text on LR threads pretty much sums it up. I suppose I can't say with certainty that they know there are issues, and just aren't talking about it... But that's just my hunch. I'm quietly confident that behind closed doors they discuss they issues with the game a Lot more openly, and understand it is far from perfect. | ||
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twndomn
401 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:07 zZygote wrote: The question is why Sen. (no disrespect) Sales doing bad in China/Taiwan or something? Browder really just shrugs questions that would really change the game. No, the testing invited Korean pro-gamers and others as well. They conducted these interviews by languages. Korean reporters would be in another interviews. China and Taiwan were in joint interview since the language isn't too different. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:44 DongWang wrote: I fail to see how Dustin is qualified to design a game. He doesn't have a computer science degree, a art/graphics design degree or any degree/qualification that is useful towards game design and development.. He has a degree in English literature. What the fuck, does that have to do with game design? If anything he should be the dialogue/text editor. Maybe work on the campaign as a storyboard editor/screen writer... He should definitely not be, the game designer. This is just stupid. John Carmack doesn't have a degree and he's created Wolfenstein 3d, Doom, Quake and Rage. Why is a degree a prerequisite for being a good game developer? You do know that often it's the other way around? I have a friend that works as a college teacher and they hold game development and XNA courses yet they know very little about game design and the technical aspect of it. Many colleges hold courses in game development but have very little connection to actual game devs and their way of doing things. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:27 wankey wrote: As far as this guy is concerned, the game is perfect, and Starcraft 2 is far from perfect. Yet he doesn't seem to see that. Sen speaks very politely and is given bullshit back. He said there is a huge consensus in the eSports community that there are problems with the game design. Yet Dustin just pokes fun at his numbers. To be honest, people have confused balance with game design. Starcraft 2 lacks in game design, not balance. Any game can be balanced through strategy and gameplay, but good game design is hard to come by. Fully agreed. I've been trying to say these things for months, yet people still insist that all of our comments are just "balance whines in disguise" or some crap. I wish people would realize that it's perfectly okay to admit that SC2 isn't perfect, and that we're all striving for it to be an awesome game, regardless of whether that requires it to be more like BW or not. Balance really isn't the issue here. | ||
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:45 karpo wrote: This is just stupid. John Carmack doesn't have a degree and he's created Wolfenstein 3d, Doom, Quake and Rage. Why is a degree a prerequisite for being a good game developer? You do know that often it's the other way around? I have a friend that works as a college teacher and they hold game development and XNA courses yet they know very little about game design and the technical aspect of it. Many colleges hold courses in game development but have very little connection to actual game devs and their way of doing things. Agreed. I studied game development at a major uni here in Australia and basically every industry expert we talked to (apart from a couple who were helping to sponsor the course) said the degree is the last thing they look at. quality of work is #1, then experience, then character / personality, Then a degree if they can't decide on who they want. Add to that, almost all good designers/artists/programmers are in the industry, and have no interest at all in teaching at a university, you end up being taught by some dud, so your much better off just self-learning or doing a few short courses to learn the basics and then starting your own projects, and use that as a folio to get in the industry. An alternative path is going down the computer science / applied programming / traditional art or even multimedia path... Getting a degree in one of them, finding a niche / specialist job in a large company, and try to work your way up. Either way the path is not simple, anyone who says "someone is not qualified to design a game" obviously has a lack of knowledge on the industry... There simply is no qualification to design a game. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! Oh god no lol. I hate rocks already as they are...the last thing we need is more shit in the way stopping expansions. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
It made sense when he said for lower leagues those really big maps aren't that great but why would you not give those lower league players their own maps then... or better yet, a choice if they want to play on normal map pool or tournament map pool, then it's their own fault | ||
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LaiShin
Australia978 Posts
On June 09 2011 17:18 Ragoo wrote: Should have asked him why there aren't different maps for different leagues in the map pool. It made sense when he said for lower leagues those really big maps aren't that great but why would you not give those lower league players their own maps then... or better yet, a choice if they want to play on normal map pool or tournament map pool, then it's their own fault yea, someone should have brought that up. Seems like a pretty obvious solution. | ||
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PardonYou
United States1360 Posts
On June 09 2011 18:11 LaiShin wrote: yea, someone should have brought that up. Seems like a pretty obvious solution. I believe he said something along the lines of not wanting to change the game per league and having to relearn things. While yes, it's not unit balance, it is map balance with rush distances. Can't say I fully agree with what he said throughout though. Saying that it is different game, yes, but looking back at what was done right can help what needs to be done in the future for SC2. Although the game won't be balance-able until after LotV anyway, so oh well. | ||
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Xpace
United States2209 Posts
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:51 Horse...falcon wrote: New Terrain Mechanics BIGGER ROCKS! MORE HITPOINTS AND ARMOR FOR ROCKS! ROCKS REGENERATE at 5.0HP/s! ROCKS EXPAND LIKE CREEP! That would rock. | ||
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ARcherTuRtle
United States66 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:59 DarkKiwi wrote: And man, Sen, Idra, Nestea, Boxer, MC, MVP, none of them have cs or arts degrees or useful degrees! They should have no say on game design either! Because clearly you need a degree in videogames to make videogames. Didn't IdrA have a college scholarship to be a rocket scientist or something? I can't remember. But that'd be a scary thought. Him playing with rockets or designing video games. :/ | ||
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Alexl
288 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
Yep, but it's not yet blizzardy enough, Rocks will automatically spawn "rock tumors" (full name has yet to be decided) that turn into new rocks after 15 seconds which create new rock tumors 60 seconds later. On Topic: The interview seemingly answered no question at all, so we can still be excited about what HotS will bringt to the table. We'll just have to wait and see. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
The most bm occurs when people lose a 30 minute game. (own experience ... i got 300% more bm when i worked on my late game and i didn't really turtled ^^ ) | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote: Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you. God I hope that was flavor from the translation and not anywhere near what Browder actually said. I will find him and attempt physical harm on him otherwise. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2011 20:37 PH wrote: God I hope that was flavor from the translation and not anywhere near what Browder actually said. I will find him and attempt physical harm on him otherwise. Browder said it himself in English. | ||
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The Void
Germany428 Posts
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
What have the XEL NAGA cooked up for us this time? teleporting portals? capturable weapons Capturable units in multiplayer so you can get xel naga robot like units wich are massively overpowered but due to all races being able to get them its not, and with a special mechanic added to it that when they leave the xel naga circle they will stop moving? Just guessing :D I surely hope they wont be adding hero units like they did in wc2->wc3 :'D I kind of understand why they do want sen there and not idra. GG anyone? | ||
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The Void
Germany428 Posts
i still wondering how they could remove that, its essential. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
- Why does he think if the stats show 50% win-rates that the game is balanced, although he seems worried about "balance" in PvP? - How can he not see that there are Units/Abilities that are almost never used, like Carriers, Hunter Seeker Missile? - How can he not acknoledge that early-game rushes like 2-rax-openings and Bunker/Pylon Wall-in's are ridiculously strong and can easily win a Terran/Protoss a game without any trouble of going into a macro-game if the rush fails? - How can he not see that the small Blizzard-Maps are absolutely horrible? I'm just disapponted everytime I hear Dustin Browder talk - IMHO, he has absolutely no clue about and doesn't care much for the highly competetive scene at all.... | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On June 09 2011 21:35 kickinhead wrote: Why do I think that everytime I hear Dustin Browder talk that he has the game-understanding of a Bronze-player? - Why does he think if the stats show 50% win-rates that the game is balanced, although he seems worried about "balance" in PvP? - How can he not see that there are Units/Abilities that are almost never used, like Carriers, Hunter Seeker Missile? - How can he not acknoledge that early-game rushes like 2-rax-openings and Bunker/Pylon Wall-in's are ridiculously strong and can easily win a Terran/Protoss a game without any trouble of going into a macro-game if the rush fails? - How can he not see that the small Blizzard-Maps are absolutely horrible? I'm just disapponted everytime I hear Dustin Browder talk - IMHO, he has absolutely no clue about and doesn't care much for the highly competetive scene at all.... I can agree that Dustin doesn't sound like he has in depth knowledge of balance. However it is naive to assume that he only speaks for himself. Behind him there is a team of devs/designers and David Kim. And even if he sounds like he has no clue I think that's just because he doesn't explain very well. The whole "we think it's balanced" is definetely the sum of an internal discussion. Dustin is just the guy taking the heat. But i agree he doesn't come off as very good. I'd rather have David Kim speaking who is least to say high level player and playing random has very good knowledge of balance. | ||
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accaris
98 Posts
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monkh
United Kingdom568 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:15 zobz wrote: If the Blizzard team are so concerned about making maps that are balanced for each seperate skill level, why don't they just have a different map pool for each ladder league? This would even give the opportunity for master/grandmaster players to practice and get ranked for their play on real tournament maps, as well as have lots of fun maps and extra simplified maps for newbie players. In fact, why don't they just let players choose what league to play in? This would really minimize the whole smurfing thing without having to run the ladder like a communist regime. Of course there would still be some fools who purposely play at lower leagues for the sake of noob bashing, but isn't that sort of expected anyway? It would just be so much nicer if there was more choice involved in the ladder, especially in name choosing. (This coming from someone who has only played some SC2 long ago at a friend's house.) Perhaps you could even be given the choice between a strictly managed ladder and an alternative free ladder. Surely some would choose the latter. Choice just seems to be very low on Blizzard's priority list in general for some reason. I like this. If they could do 2 different ladders, one competitive ladder where you chose to play if you want to play the gamer more competitive and train on competitive maps and one where casual players who don't really care about improving and just play for fun a few games a week on noob friendly maps. Ofc the competitive ladder would need some kind of skill measuring so bronze-diamond level players doesn't face a grandmaster player because that gap is probably too high for both players to gain something out of it. So a ranking system to measure skill like iCCup's D to A would be cool, imo. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On June 09 2011 21:42 papaz wrote: I can agree that Dustin doesn't sound like he has in depth knowledge of balance. However it is naive to assume that he only speaks for himself. Behind him there is a team of devs/designers and David Kim. And even if he sounds like he has no clue I think that's just because he doesn't explain very well. The whole "we think it's balanced" is definetely the sum of an internal discussion. Dustin is just the guy taking the heat. But i agree he doesn't come off as very good. I'd rather have David Kim speaking who is least to say high level player and playing random has very good knowledge of balance. But how can they say it's balanced when it's clearly not? Even if we see a pretty even win-loss-stat for each MU, you simply just can't deny that there are Units/Abilities or Maps almost never used in competetive play, just because they're bad! And don't get me started about stuff like scouting... Okay, Zerg can guess what the Terran will do in the first 5-10 Minutes of the game and if he guesses right, he has a decent chance to win which could lead to an even win-loss-distribution, but is that really balance? Or stuff like the before mentioned rushes/allin's and cheeses, that are way too good and if you don't send in all your workers have nearly no drawback even without doing much dmg? Or the fact that Zerg cannot be aggressive against Terran early on if they wall-in properly! Even baneling-busts only work if the Terran has a wall-in with "weak" buildings, if every Terran would wall-in with big structures, not even baneling-busts would be an appropriate aggressive reaction to sth. the Terran is doing.... -.-° | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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wankey
98 Posts
On June 09 2011 22:49 Archerofaiur wrote: I think it would really help your arguement (those who are argueing so) if you can provide statistical evidence of a 50% rush rate. Hearsay is hearsay. Statistical evidence is sometimes as good as hearsay. For example, unless Blizzard watches each and every game, statistical evidence doesn't show much. He talked to 17 pro gamers, and that is they opinion as well. I'm sure Sen has a lot of in depth discussions with people. Lets think about it this way, if lets say you play 10 games, and the first five, it's the same rush tactic, but you fight them off biligerently because the players don't know what to do after the rush tactic. The next five game is another same rush tactic and you're just pissed and throw those games because thos players know what to do. Statistically you have a 50% win loss ratio but none of that statistic show the actual rush issue. It tells you nothing really. I've seen Terrans get into masters league with just the 3-4 rax build over and over. It's quite ridiculous. If 17 top players are complaining about this strategy, especially coming from one of the top players, it's pretty clear there is some problem. The problem isn't that Starcraft 2 isn't balanced, no game should design purely for balance. It's that Starcraft 2's inherent game design is poor. Spells are simply hacked into the game, problem with early Protoss? Make a spell called Force Field to stop early aggression completely with a click. Concussive shell and fungal are again, poor game design ideas. They completely shut down the back and forth nature of the game. Sen brings up some serious points that they seem to fail to see the overall big picture. The ironic that Sen, speaking Chinese, sounds about 200x wiser than the guy "in charge" of Starcraft 2 design. Even the way Sen talks in Chinese speaks volumes compared to the child like manner in which Dustin Browder talks. To Dustin, SC2 is probably just another game and that his piss poor ideas are having a hard time getting into because he's realizing SC2 is actually a much harder game to design for. I can't even believe Dustin defended the ball problem. It makes micro harder? No buddy, it makes micro impossible and it makes a-move ridiculously dumb. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On June 09 2011 22:37 kickinhead wrote: Even if we see a pretty even win-loss-stat for each MU, you simply just can't deny that there are Units/Abilities or Maps almost never used in competetive play, just because they're bad! That has nothing to do with balance. Or stuff like the before mentioned rushes/allin's and cheeses, that are way too good and if you don't send in all your workers have nearly no drawback even without doing much dmg? Skill required to defend vs execute attacks is not a balance issue, it's a game design issue. It only becomes a balance issue if a perfectly executed attack simply cannot be defended. Or the fact that Zerg cannot be aggressive against Terran early on if they wall-in properly! Even baneling-busts only work if the Terran has a wall-in with "weak" buildings, if every Terran would wall-in with big structures, not even baneling-busts would be an appropriate aggressive reaction to sth. the Terran is doing.... -.-° Now you're just whining. | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
"Short rush distances so players can learn the game" -- I think they should've just opened a shop if they wanted to sample cheese. They should really let someone with a clue answer interview questions. | ||
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wankey
98 Posts
On June 09 2011 23:18 xsevR wrote: Hate the comments on any comparison to Brood War. I mean he even says go watch Brood War if you don't like SC2... how dense. It's fucking STARCRAFT 2. "Short rush distances so players can learn the game" -- I think they should've just opened a shop if they wanted to sample cheese. They should really let someone with a clue answer interview questions. Saying go watch Brood War is just as dense. They are comparing the game design in brood war to the game design in SC2. Then again comments like "this isn't brood war" is just stupid and coming from Blizzard, it's dumb. It's like saying Counter strike: Source isn't like counter strike 1. So? There are parts that are way better in CS1 and not a lot of things that are better in CS:S, why is that? | ||
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Crissaegrim
2947 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:18 skipgamer wrote: Browder is the "face" of starcraft 2 at blizzard. I'm almost certain his role is more management than actually designing. A lead of any creative or technical group rarely does much actual "work", they more-so mediate between the different groups of the development... That being said I'm sure some feedback does pass through him, but I would be highly surprised if he had the "final say" on any issue, let alone balance. So, cut the rage... Good luck finding a video of similar effect to this from any other major game developer. <3 Blizzard Great vid. edit: just to make it more clear so I don't come off sounding like some "blizzard can do no wrong" fan boy, I genuinely believe Browder was being honest in his answers, and he raised a LOT of good points. When he disagreed with the power of rushes he said he would discuss it more (which is essentially his job, as a mediator.) When they complained about how its harder to watch, it was a good point that the pathing is much better and this naturally leads to more clumping. When they complained about it not being as good as BW, he pretty much flatout said BW is still there if you prefer it... Most of this thread is complaining about sc2 not being BW... and he has no problem with that. Take it or leave it. I dont think what most want is a rehash of BW but rather they want to be ensured that the longevity of BW is passed on to SC2. Nobody in this site wants SC2 to fail but rather to not be a fad game like so many games produced today are. BW has been around for over 10+years so certain aspects that allowed it such staying power should be considered and not brushed aside. | ||
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Jacob666
United States285 Posts
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Kanuck
Canada50 Posts
I really see no problem with a mixed map pool, consisting of both long and short rush distance maps. God forbid players need to know how to play both a short and long term game. Personally i find it exciting to have games on both ends of the spectrum as opposed to the monotony of only a single play style. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:49 Kanuck wrote: I hate that most people just want "bigger maps" to prevent rushes. Instead of wanting balance they just want forced macro games. I really see no problem with a mixed map pool, consisting of both long and short rush distance maps. God forbid players need to know how to play both a short and long term game. Personally i find it exciting to have games on both ends of the spectrum as opposed to the monotony of only a single play style. hmm, i am on the opposite side of that coin. Rushes do retain the majority of their potency when maps grow bigger, scouts will have to be sent earlier. Heavy cheese would have more risk added to it and thats GOOD. You can 6 pool and two rax or do whatever you feel like doing on any map because the standard when playing larger maps just increase in their greedy approach at a macro game. 2 rax that would ordinary be unpunishable might have to become proxy 2rax to survive AND THIS IS GOOD because now the terran is at risk for doing early agression, he has to invest more money and time rather than have 2 raxes in your own base chilling and producing marines that could POTENTIALLY END THE GAME FOR ZERG. The only pet peve i have is that if maps grow beyond the size of testbug is that some of the units seem to be designed with a certain map size in mind. This is evident when you look at army size when maxed. Atleast it is funny to look at. Starcraft that is a more swarm based economy rts yet once tier 3 kicks in the game has almost wc3 like army numbers (exeptions being zerglings, banelings and marines). | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
I think that the early rushes (before 5 mins) should be nerfed. All three of these strategies are very effective and can be easily transitioned out of: cannon rush/block vs Z 2 rax vs Z 6 pool vs P All of those strategies should be nerfed in my opinion. Early timing attacks (after 5 mins) should be preserved and left in the game. These include: 4 gate 3 rax vs P DT rushes 9 pool speedlings | ||
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kakaman
United States1576 Posts
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SHmRo
Canada3 Posts
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Comet702
China236 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote: sum up for people lazy of loading the video: edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback edit2: done! Hi, TLers, Comet from wfbrood.com(China) I have translated this into Chinese and posted on www.wfbrood.com I have clearly stated that the article was taken from here and I will bring the feedbacks to here Here is the link(it is in traditional Chinese, not simplified):http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-28192-1-1.html thanks~ | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: The income is the same, SC2 workers just mine faster. This is bad though because it flattens the income curve, so taking extra bases doesn't increase income until saturation. It's not really improved worker AI as such, its more to do with the fact that workers will return as soon as a worker arrives. Try lengthening the mining time and workers will start to glitch out. The longer workers stay at a patch the more powerful expanding becomes, because now the amount of patches you have also becomes a resource. There is a problem with double gas though. For a race like Zerg which is gas bound rather than mineral bound, it wastes a lot of supply mining gas. Would you call protoss a mineral bound race? | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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twndomn
401 Posts
On June 10 2011 22:03 sluggaslamoo wrote: Can someone please put the translations in the OP? Thanks sure, I suggest that you should learn another language, and then volunteer to do the translation for the rest of community, all for free of course. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Why not trap all the noobies in noobie league where they have special maps so that they can't be rushed? Oh, wait.. hmm.. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On June 11 2011 02:52 twndomn wrote: sure, I suggest that you should learn another language, and then volunteer to do the translation for the rest of community, all for free of course. If that was finnish I would translate it now, immediately and for FREE. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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Ladygaga
Norway16 Posts
On June 11 2011 02:52 twndomn wrote: sure, I suggest that you should learn another language, and then volunteer to do the translation for the rest of community, all for free of course. What do you mean? ;-o | ||
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Rah
United States973 Posts
On June 11 2011 03:45 Megaliskuu wrote: I hope someone at the blizzcon panel will ask Browder if he actually PLAYS starcraft 2. Pretty sure he gave up on the game when he realized that good players need to do more than memorize 5 different rush builds. Sad that the HoTS expansion which was being marketted early as the big expansion for E-Sports is now the big expansion for casuals. Wasn't that WoL's focus too? Blizzard needs to get their priorities straight. This isn't a game casual players will stick with, no matter how much time they waste on developing these 10 minute missions and custom games. Multiplayer is where the effort is rewarded. Players who are bad at SC2 can still watch it. Focus on that. | ||
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TUski
United States1258 Posts
do you think sc2 is harder to watch compare to BW? unit clumps and AoE spell... (they tried to link this to balance design) unit clums means not "horrible pathing". For mordern RTS we NEED good pathing and we think its the future. Its is true that its harder to see if unit clumps but we are trying our best to solve that with the UI. About the AoE, i feel like it makes the battle much more fun to watch (micro challenging). If you dont think Sc2 is a good game to watch, BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you. "If you don't like this game, go away because we're not going to fix critical errors that inhibit it from becoming more like the best RTS game ever made." Le sigh. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Or did he just not understand it? From the way he spoke, it seems like either is possible. They asked if Blizzard planned to remove close spawn positions on Shattered Temple and Metalopolis for the ladder play... and he talked about weather or not they were going to remove the maps from the pool. -_- edit: And I would totally view those videos as simply audio files- if u actually watch them you'll probably die from boredom. | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
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DennyR
Germany379 Posts
I mean they made terrible designdecisions and they will keep doing them in HOTS and he is just dodging question related to these points and making bad statements about some others(like unitclups and that it not so easy to enjoy as scbw) I dont know where we go from here, but I feel like SC2 is a much worse game than it could be, but its still a pretty, pretty good game. | ||
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Xevious
United States2086 Posts
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Aristotle7
United States120 Posts
Ladder maps will still be noob friendly. No intentional fixes for Zerg. I guess I can hope their new units will good. That's the last hope I have. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 11 2011 02:52 twndomn wrote: sure, I suggest that you should learn another language, and then volunteer to do the translation for the rest of community, all for free of course. Most of the translations are already posted in this thread, they are just not in the OP. I was posting this for other people, not myself, who have already read them. And sure, if it were in Japanese, I would. Smartass. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 11 2011 04:08 TUski wrote: "If you don't like this game, go away because we're not going to fix critical errors that inhibit it from becoming more like the best RTS game ever made." Le sigh. Yeah why should they try and make a game thats better. So what they didn't perfect it in the first incarnation. This game will change drastically, and while they said they will not unclump the units, its not like they don't know its an issue, and they can compensate for it in other ways, to make a great game thats maybe better than ScBW. | ||
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MenSol[ZerO]
Canada1134 Posts
On June 11 2011 04:08 TUski wrote: "If you don't like this game, go away because we're not going to fix critical errors that inhibit it from becoming more like the best RTS game ever made." Le sigh. the sigh? | ||
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SirazTV
United States209 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 12 2011 12:39 Probe1 wrote: It was said best. This is not a game for casual players. A casual player will buy this game regardless of how they treat the ladder. A casual player won't care about the imbalance of this or that. Balancing from bronze league and Dustin Browder citing his own minimal experience with ladder play is embarrassing to everyone that has played 10, 15 games a day to improve. I agree. Does Browder not realise there is no such thing as "balancing" as long as both players are constantly floating 2k minerals? I'd rather they redesigned the game to make it more fun, than just change stats to make it balanced. The whole clumping thing does not increase micro, it decreases it. The amount of maneuvers you could pull against different types of units with just marines in BW is a lot more than in SC2. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
do you think sc2 is harder to watch compare to BW? unit clumps and AoE spell... (they tried to link this to balance design) unit clums means not "horrible pathing". For mordern RTS we NEED good pathing and we think its the future. Its is true that its harder to see if unit clumps but we are trying our best to solve that with the UI. About the AoE, i feel like it makes the battle much more fun to watch (micro challenging). If you dont think Sc2 is a good game to watch, BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you. Wow what an awful response. Can't believe Blizzard hired this guy. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On June 11 2011 04:44 cursor wrote: Did he just dodge the question about Close Spawn positions? Or did he just not understand it? From the way he spoke, it seems like either is possible. They asked if Blizzard planned to remove close spawn positions on Shattered Temple and Metalopolis for the ladder play... and he talked about weather or not they were going to remove the maps from the pool. -_- edit: And I would totally view those videos as simply audio files- if u actually watch them you'll probably die from boredom. removing close spawns would be kind of like removing maps, because close spawns plays like a different map, so basically he's saying that they're not going to remove ladder content because it encourages rush strategies or short games, as they want there to be some of that in the ladder for variety. which i find myself agreeing with to be honest. tournaments already design their map pools around avoiding those kinds of games so what's the problem. | ||
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Bocian
Poland259 Posts
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HappyZerGling
Ukraine161 Posts
what's the sense in interview, if there is absolutely no information, only "we will let you know, when it's ready". The most disappointing thing is that there is no priority to progaming scene in balancing, I talked to Blizzard's representatives @ IEM, adn they told that this game is played not only by progamers, if there is some change, it affects not only progaming scene, but also platinum, bronze etc... I understand that progamers are only 5% of all players, but still... You cant change UEFA Champions League rules because of some guys playing soccer in their yard that arent satisfied :D This is silly. It's the problem of skill, but not balance issue. Sen of course made right questions, but we couldnt hear any answers. | ||
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Homeless666
Czech Republic50 Posts
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taran
Finland49 Posts
On June 13 2011 00:11 Doc Daneeka wrote: removing close spawns would be kind of like removing maps, because close spawns plays like a different map, so basically he's saying that they're not going to remove ladder content because it encourages rush strategies or short games, as they want there to be some of that in the ladder for variety. which i find myself agreeing with to be honest. tournaments already design their map pools around avoiding those kinds of games so what's the problem. The problem isn't short rush distances, but it's the fact that short rush distance is very imbalanced in TvZ and PvZ. | ||
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