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On June 05 2011 17:54 relic wrote:
I watch SC2 both through streams and replays, and I really love it. However, after doing well in the beta, then coming to the retail version a few month after release I found myself getting destroyed in bronze.
I haven't bothered trying again, it's the first game i've really given up on and it's the one I most enjoy!
It makes too much sense now, you post in my other thread about serious vs casual player, saying I'm an idiot and acting total BM.
But here I see your the bronze player who won't put in the effort required to improve, yet still "loves" starcraft. Stick to spectating, and don't insult people trying to have a constructive discussion.
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I used to be scared as hell to ladder. Playing the ladder, having your skill level labeled and critiqued, is very intimidating for new players. Even now, I sometimes get nervous before a ladder match. But I got over my "ladder fear" by just approached SC2 like I did every other game. For example, when I sit down with Call of Duty or Halo, they have a ranking system that attempts to keep you with similarly ranked players. But when I play them, I don't even really think about it. I go into CoD, slap on a shotgun, and run around and just have fun.
That's the approach I started to take with SC2. Sure, I go on long losing streaks, but I have a helluva lot of fun doing it! I know I'm never going to be a professional SC2 player, so why not just play the game to have a bit of fun? It's always fun to win, but sometimes it's fun to build nothing but probes and then hide nexuses all around the map (even if it is a little BM =P).
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Honestly, this is how I feel about it. The system is designed to hide true skill behind the MMR curtain, and therefore people feel this fear about a big unknown of whether they will be matched with equal or much more skilled opponents at any given time. What with MMR being so subject to fluctuate wildly from win/loss streaks.
Let me give you an example. I lost 12 games straight, and I was being put against top 8 silvers and golds because of it. at 500 games how does that happen if MMR CANT fluctuate wildly? I won 12 straight games, and got back up to fighting vs top 8 diamonds again. And this trend is continuing no matter how many games I've already played.
Anyone who plays the game, even as a casual, will probably start seeing the inconsistency with the face value of players they fight vs their in game skill. And then they will discover the system is fudging to give all the casuals "gold stars" just for participating.
remember, that with all animals, even humans, its the fear of the unknown that affects how they react and behave in a given system.
If you've ever heard of "learned helplessness", in which animals or humans are subjected to conditions where they continually get conflicting results, such as a shock administered at random, no matter what side of a box they are in, they will eventually just sit in the corner and cower waiting for the shock never trying to get away from it, because they've learned to be helpless.
the hidden ranking via MMR is exactly such a system for people relying on visual information fo what they can expect in skill level from other players. This is also why derankers are so bad for the game in general. I don't expect any blizzard execs to have gone through mediocre high school psych to understand this concept and see how its bad for their game in the long run, but it doesn't change the fact about what it does.
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You have 50 games in practice league.
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I don't have ladder fear but
if I'm tired or something I won't ladder. And customs aren't worth my time so I basically don't play
Imo there needs to be a unranked match que or something like that
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On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
The first idea that comes into my head would be to allow people to turn of ladder ranking. So they can still play against ladder opponents, and their rating (ELO/MMR or what ever it is called) would adjust just like normal, but they would not have a rank or be in a division. This would allow people to easily play games against opponents of the same skill level without having to fight the "Ladder Fear".
Actually I kind of think revealing mmr and removing w/l ratio as well as removing these crappy divisions would actually fix the fear most people have of laddering. I have a couple friends who are completely turned off from laddering, and while their reasoning is retarded I feel like a lot of people who are afraid to ladder actually share the same reasoning. Their reason for not wanting to ladder is because they have this idea in their head that w/l ratio means something. (mmr is way more important) For whatever reason they have these internet egos and getting stomped in silver league crushes that ego for them so they simply don't do it. I feel like having 1 massive ladder would add a lot more anonymity to lower ranked players who might be afraid of being "judged" for their poor rating; and my reason for thinking that removing w/l ratio is because I also know a few people who randomly happened to get a good w/l ratio playing terrible players, and they won't ladder any more because they want to keep that w/l ratio because they think it makes them look good.
I'm know their are a lot of other reasons for people not wanting to ladder but I feel like these are a couple big ones. Even though their fears of laddering are based on retarded reasoning, i feel like most of that reasoning stems from blizzards terrible ladder design. This whole "division" thing has made people care more about their place in some random shitty division (and keeping that place) than getting better. I really think if a lot of these people were hit with a reality check on where they actually stand, and a little more anonymity, they would care less about their insignificant ranking and more about just playing.
I do have to say though, you're idea for a practice option, based on mmr, is far better then what I suggested here and would certainly at least get people playing the game more for the sake of getting better, which would hopefully trickle down eventually to them playing ladder more as well.
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To quote the DTs of Starcraft 2:
Fear is an illusion.
Seriously though, I have the case of trembles whenever I click the search button while laddering. Being a newbie to Starcraft, I thought I would be smashed or cheesed no matter what league I am in.
That is, til recently when I was able to play my ladder matches with a bit more confidence. If you ask me, the ladder system in Starcraft 2 increases the replay value. If I lose, I definitely need to work on my shortcomings and if I win or get promoted, it's actually a sense of accomplishment. 
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On July 10 2011 17:20 lim1017 wrote:
I don't have ladder fear but
if I'm tired or something I won't ladder. And customs aren't worth my time so I basically don't play
Imo there needs to be a unranked match que or something like that
What about FFAs? They are the only matchups that aren't ranked. :D
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I suffer from severe Ladderphobia, you can find me on Xel Naga Caverns custom, I wish I could change
iirc PsyStarcraft has had periods of extreme ladderphobia, it's related to a one-eyed ninja turtle ice-cream he received as a kid.
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I used to be really scared of hitting the search button, but i forced myself through that fear enough times and got really used to laddering. Now i really do not care if i win or loose, just trying to have fun. It is a game after all. no need to be afraid of something so silly
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I know the feeling. I was playing alot & practicing in beta and a couple of months after that, but after I took a break I was too scared to go back to laddering because I knew I would lose. I decided to be a spectator instead, and since there is so many great games to watch every day, I don't mind not playing the game, even though I keep up with the metagame.
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Have you EVER thought of the idea that it is the fear and adrenaline that makes people play sc2? You know, the feelings that is in every competition?
What I miss, is for blizzard to show us the MMR. If you meet a silver even, he could have MMR of a low platinum, who maybe was just on a losing streak (bad day etc) and the silver has just not won enough to be moved up in ladder.
Silver vs Platinum, what are people to make of this? MMR would be much better.
Show us our real rating, so we boys can rank each other up. We did it in fifth grade, we do it as grandpas.
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On July 10 2011 18:19 HotSoup470 wrote:
Its pretty obvious that when when you sit down on the couch and start playing Call of Duty, if you're "good" at the game, then you'll have fun, cause you'll be owning up noobs/average players. There is no MMR on Call of Duty, so you endlessly get to have fun seeing your self near the top of the score board.
In SC2 no matter what you'll always be 50/50 in your W/L, which for people who are used to being "above average" can be discouraging and "not fun".
I would venture that a silent majority hate losing. Call of Duty could've implemented MMR like Halo 3 Ranks, but they purposely didn't, because that's not what the majority wanted.
Imagine a SC2 without leagues, you simple hit find match and you're paired with a random player. That is against the essence of SC. The current state of hidden losses for sub-master I think is an ingenious compromise.
Actually, CoD is an extremely frustrating game, and just because of the lack of MMR i have never seen my self in the top of the score screen. Ever. I tried doing teamwork with a friend, nothing helps. Unorganized people destroy us. And i have played it for 6 months, sure i suck but come on? I can't even get a kill in some matches...
As for SC2, losing is not THAT frustrating as long as it came down to more complex things.
I eg. a drop from terran killing your third and leaving your economy crippled, so for the next game you make the adjustments of placing cannons that zone out the drop or at least delay the snipe so you can come and deal with it. Sometimes it is diffucult to improve without being on a team, and i don't mean for insanely high masters players, i mean even the lower leagues.
As for ladder fear hurting the casual players....? Why would that matter to that part of the community? They are casual and more than likely to play 2v2s,3v3s or 4v4s, and hence the fact that they are casual they are not afraid of playing ladder since they play it for fun. That's the way i interpret it at least.
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People don't fear the ladder, they fear losing. They don't have drive to accept and learn from losses. They will probably have limited success in a competitive game.
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Yeah, I'm not going to lie, sometimes I just want to stomp on some noobs, but Blizzard has done too good of a job with their MMR system in SC2. As a result, you either have to throw tons of games (too much work) or face opponents near your skill level.
For the same reason, I don't like HON as much as I did DOTA, because in DOTA you can just join random pubs and roll noobs, while in HON you have to either pay for smurf accounts or play against people who are relatively comparable to your ability.
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I seriously don't understand the whole fear of laddering. I read most of this thread and I still don't really get it. A lot of people I know are afraid to ladder but can't really put it in to words as to why when I ask them. I'm just honestly wondering (not for any negative reason or anything) what exactly it is?? Is it really just fear of a bad record? Or is it a fear of losing to someone random in a game? The thing that always gets me about it is that if you're not one of the worst people in the world, your record is going to be relatively the same as everybody elses (hovering around 50/50). Or maybe it's a fear of ending up in a lower league and having friends supposedly judge you or something??
Someone help me out if you can. Truly just asking out of interest. I feel like the explanations I've got from friends just don't really explain what it is.
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On July 10 2011 19:25 MementoMori wrote:
I seriously don't understand the whole fear of laddering. I read most of this thread and I still don't really get it. A lot of people I know are afraid to ladder but can't really put it in to words as to why when I ask them. I'm just honestly wondering (not for any negative reason or anything) what exactly it is?? Is it really just fear of a bad record? Or is it a fear of losing to someone random in a game? The thing that always gets me about it is that if you're not one of the worst people in the world, your record is going to be relatively the same as everybody elses (hovering around 50/50). Or maybe it's a fear of ending up in a lower league and having friends supposedly judge you or something??
Someone help me out if you can. Truly just asking out of interest. I feel like the explanations I've got from friends just don't really explain what it is.
I used to have this. I think it's that first of all, your friends and anyone who's interested can look at your profile, see your match history, league, rank etc..which for some reason affects you psychologically as you won't want to appear bad. Second of all losing in SC2 for some reason feels a lot worse, especially when you're new. This is to do with the fact that it's 1v1 and when you lose, you might have just lost 20 minutes of building up your base, building units etc. For some reason that feels a lot worse than, say a loss in dota or FPS. sc2 is just a more intense game which requires more investment of your time and energy, which means when you lose you feel like you have utterly failed. If you lose in CS for example, as long as you had a few kills or a positive K/D, even if you're on the losing team it's not that bad.
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I think its a problem. The problem is, it implicit forces me to look at Starcraft 2 as a job. Why you ask? Fact is, if i dont play alot, like every day, i will loose, and get knocked down. Some people might see this is fair, and good, and yes, sure it can be, but its not fun. Its never fun. I suppose its important, what kinda person you are, i myself i very compative, so i hate loosing, and i hate getting better. So for me i have two options, either commit to SC2, or stop playing. I dont wannt commit to SC2, i already got a job, i dont need another once, so i choose the later. I know im not the only one having theese issues, as alot of my friends dont wanna ladder either, simply because the ladder doesnt make them enjoy it. Now i know people will tell them to play customs, im sorry, but thats like, mocking yourself, so then you might aswell stop playing SC2 all together.
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Fear really is an illusion. What you fear is not what you know but the uncertainty that surrounds it. I do not really have friends playing SC2 so the ladder is all I got. Besides I do not know where the fear should be coming from. I play for fun, not for achievements and success. Sure I like winning and hate losing, like anyone else but in the end I play because I like the game and to get better, so that I win more and lose less. No fear involved.
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EPT
