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On April 19 2011 07:39 Nazza wrote:
3) BW mechanics are worse, thus SC2 is more fun
I'm not going to lie. SC2 mechanics are easier. But the OP makes arguments besides mechanics. Personally I think the effect SC2 mechanics have on the game are minimal, aside from acceleration/deceleration of certain units, and unit pathing.
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Better mechanics = more fun?I play both and honestly most of the time I laugh and have more fun and laughs when playing BW.... Lol remember those stupid goons can't go up the ramp and they keep getting bugged? Soo Funny hahaha! then you lose after that? lolz It was so funny xD
SC2 has better mechanics sure but I never enjoyed forcefielding(1FFFFFFFF) and microing my units like in BW....I like what BW has to do when your in battle.. from splitting zealot storming stasising defusing mines... Some people might find stupid AI frustrating because all they care about is winning. But I have fun while playing BW...
In SC2 I have more fun people who waste their time insulting me and spamming me rather than actually playing it...
P.S I only recently started playing BW and SC2.... And I only watched like 3 VODS....
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sc2 is a different game. I never played BW competitively before (was too young to care), but I can tell you now I love SC2.
all you people comparing BW to SC2 are comparing two DIFFERENT games. That's where your problem lies.
You're the older person who has nostalgia about an older time, and wants to satisfy that nostalgia by changing what exists now.
But as suprising as this may be... ALOT OF PEOPLE LOVE SC2 AS IT IS NOW!
Me included. =)
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Perfectly played 200/200 Terran play won't be achieved for many years. It will be a thing of beauty.
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On April 19 2011 14:12 andrewwiggin wrote:
sc2 is a different game. I never played BW competitively before (was too young to care), but I can tell you now I love SC2.
all you people comparing BW to SC2 are comparing two DIFFERENT games. That's where your problem lies.
You're the older person who has nostalgia about an older time, and wants to satisfy that nostalgia by changing what exists now.
But as suprising as this may be... ALOT OF PEOPLE LOVE SC2 AS IT IS NOW!
Me included. =)
You don't get it at all.
People with a BW background don't want a new bw, they have bw with a thriving korean scene.
They want to help sc2 with their knowledge and insight in what made bw what it is today.
The games are different, but the basic fundamentals are the same.
And those experienced people (op) can see, that the game has great potential, but through his past he knows how the already good game can become EVEN better.
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I started watching SC2 back in beta when I randomly came across Husky & HD. Eventually I found teamliquid and after SC2 was released I followed mostly the big tournaments and stopped watching H&H. While following the growing SC2 scene, I also popped by the BW section in TL and started watching BW VODS / Streams. It took a while to get used to the graphics and it was (and still is) hard to understand what was going on in the game. I started reading up on the BW matchups to try to improve my viewing experience. It is amazing. BW is. I cannot claim to be a gosu at understanding the game (because I don't even play it lol), but seeing all the cute things the players do to inch themselves to a small advantage is exciting. The difficulty of executing all these cute micro while macroing thanks to the retarded UI of BW makes it all the more impressive, but that's not the main point. In fact, I feel that the improvement in the SC2 UI is great. Disregarding the terrible UI, the flow of the game is still much more interesting to watch.
SC2 feels to me, a more shallow game than BW. Whether this is good or not for the spectators is arguable. It's easier for casual players to come into the scene, because of the fancy graphics and relatively simple state of the game. But after a certain point, something seems to be missing in some of the matchups if you knew what brood war can offer. SC2 is an amazing game, but BW is on another class of its own. Why should we settle for something less, when we have already seen what can be achieved in the previous game?
I still mostly watch SC2, because BW is harder to follow (I can't speak korean T_T). But I urge those who are satisfied with the current SC2 to try to watch and understand the BW games, because that may change your entire opinion on this issue. BW is only boring to watch if you don't have a clue on what's happening in the game. Please go past that step before criticising any "nostalgic BW fanboys", because they have extremely valid points to make.
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On April 19 2011 14:12 andrewwiggin wrote:
sc2 is a different game. I never played BW competitively before (was too young to care), but I can tell you now I love SC2.
all you people comparing BW to SC2 are comparing two DIFFERENT games. That's where your problem lies.
You're the older person who has nostalgia about an older time, and wants to satisfy that nostalgia by changing what exists now.
But as suprising as this may be... ALOT OF PEOPLE LOVE SC2 AS IT IS NOW!
Me included. =)
This post is not about SC2 to being more BW its more of SC2 trying to learn what BW has done.
I only started recently playing Starcraft 2 and BW.(I played more FPS than RTS) You can call that nostalgia if you like. But I think everyone is missing the point of this thread. If you ever think about it BW is the best game you can compare SC2 with... Starcraft 2 has its charms of its own and I love it... I love BW too why can't we just all be friends?
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On April 19 2011 14:20 Resolve wrote:
SC2 feels to me, a more shallow game than BW. Whether this is good or not for the spectators is arguable. It's easier for casual players to come into the scene, because of the fancy graphics and relatively simple state of the game. But after a certain point, something seems to be missing in some of the matchups if you knew what brood war can offer. SC2 is an amazing game, but BW is on another class of its own. Why should we settle for something less, when we have already seen what can be achieved in the previous game?
I still mostly watch SC2, because BW is harder to follow (I can't speak korean T_T). But I urge those who are satisfied with the current SC2 to try to watch and understand the BW games, because that may change your entire opinion on this issue. BW is only boring to watch if you don't have a clue on what's happening in the game. Please go past that step before criticising any "nostalgic BW fanboys", because they have extremely valid points to make.
I agree 100%, I came to TL during beta after plugging from HD and Husky and played SC2 exclusively
except during beta downtime which i played BW for like 2 weeks, but about 3 months ago i started poking in BW threads and eventually decided to watch a few vods/streams and one thing led to another and quit SC2 all together for BW about 2 and a half months ago and haven't touched it since, and doubt i ever will.
I encourage everyone to at some point just ignore SC2 exists for a week and try BW instead, its really fun even just losing over and over starting out and theres a ton of helpfull people in OP Teamliquid on iccup.
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It's good to compare the two and see that yeah maybe Blizzard can do a little better balancing and fix some things to the game, but you also can't compare a 9 month old game with a 12 year old game that had years to grow and be balanced and all the interesting things you can do, and we haven't even gotten into the first expansion yet for sc2 so there is still so much more room to grow.
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Your first two pictures are unfair for analysis purposes. Of course there are more "things" going on in the BW picture: there are more units involved. Add HTs and a raven to the top picture and then there are more "things" going on in the SC2 picture.
Of course I agree that BW required more micro and the battles were more dynamic, but why flaw your argument with imbalanced pictures?
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But it's unfair. Some people seem to have rational capability to identify the difference between a sequel and a remake, but also to ignore that basis, and then simply compare the game only to BW, without comparing it to other games too. There is no reason not to compare it just as much to WC3 and see what we can get from that game to improve SC2. The thread talks about what SC2 is missing.
When, because you certainly can, you compare it to BW, don't just make irregular statements about the quality, such as A was so good in BW but is not in SC2? What can be in both games, except maybe a concept? Nothing. If you met someone saying "WC3 had heroes, SC2 should do that too", you would rage, but you are in essence doing the exact same thing. Just because you are pulling gold nuggets from a perfect game, dosen't mean you can impose on the quality of a new game, in it's infant stages.
Your point would be exactly as legitimate as using a C&C concept, i.e. the spy, and then pull down an essay about why C&C is so awesome, where SC2 is not. Don't do that with any game as base. Just be smarter people.
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People who are saying that oldschoolers just want a BW 2.0 completely miss the point. Hell, I didn't even play BW competitively, just some games here and there and watch. And still I completely get what they mean.
You could introduce completely different units in SC2, you don't have to re-introduce lurkers, vultures, etc. - obvious things being obvious. But this doesn't change the fact that the current setup of units is far too less demanding. The only unit that REALLY changes from so-so to awsome with enough skill envolved are blink stalkers. Introducing blink stalkers was brilliant in my opinion, there are still so many unexplored ways to play with them. Just think about it that way: we don't need "more BW-units" but we need more units like the blink stalker. Borderline crappy when a-moved, but incredible in the hands of someone who has mastered the blink skills.
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On April 19 2011 16:38 sleepingdog wrote:
The only unit that REALLY changes from so-so to awsome with enough skill envolved are blink stalkers. Introducing blink stalkers was brilliant in my opinion, there are still so many unexplored ways to play with them. Just think about it that way: we don't need "more BW-units" but we need more units like the blink stalker. Borderline crappy when a-moved, but incredible in the hands of someone who has mastered the blink skills.
The blink Stalker is awesome, but I still resent the elimination of Dragoon micro. Perhaps some other unit could pick up the Dragoon's brilliant combination of clumsy and nimble?
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On April 19 2011 17:00 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 16:38 sleepingdog wrote:
The only unit that REALLY changes from so-so to awsome with enough skill envolved are blink stalkers. Introducing blink stalkers was brilliant in my opinion, there are still so many unexplored ways to play with them. Just think about it that way: we don't need "more BW-units" but we need more units like the blink stalker. Borderline crappy when a-moved, but incredible in the hands of someone who has mastered the blink skills. The blink Stalker is awesome, but I still resent the elimination of Dragoon micro. Perhaps some other unit could pick up the Dragoon's brilliant combination of clumsy and nimble?
The ultralisk fills the role of mentally challenged and fast pretty well. Have you ever tried getting an ultralisk to the front of your force? Its maddening!
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On April 19 2011 14:23 By.Fantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 14:12 andrewwiggin wrote:
sc2 is a different game. I never played BW competitively before (was too young to care), but I can tell you now I love SC2.
all you people comparing BW to SC2 are comparing two DIFFERENT games. That's where your problem lies.
You're the older person who has nostalgia about an older time, and wants to satisfy that nostalgia by changing what exists now.
But as suprising as this may be... ALOT OF PEOPLE LOVE SC2 AS IT IS NOW!
Me included. =)
This post is not about SC2 to being more BW its more of SC2 trying to learn what BW has done.
"We're not saying it should be like Brood War, just that it should have all the elements of Brood War we liked".
There's a lot of things Brood War does well that SC2 doesn't do. That's not an accident.
I don't want SC2 to be as good as Brood War. Brood War is as good as Brood War, and if SC2 doesn't break away from the Brood War formula, on purpose, it'll never be anything but a pale imitation.
In order for SC2 to succeed, it has to do something new. "It's like X, but better" has never been a successful formula. It never will be. It never can be. I made a Capcom joke earlier. How many times have they tried to recapture the magic of Mega Man 2? They've made some pretty good games in the attempt, but they never really beat it. Mega Man 3 was "Mega Man 2, but better". And yet...it kind of wasn't as good. Mega Man 4? Enh. Mega Man 5. 6. 7. 8 was actually kind of bad. Even 9 and 10, which got to use the nostalgia factor, never quite made it to that level.
Capcom tried making a sequel then that broke the formula pretty hard. It was "dumbed down for the masses" with easier levels that didn't require pixel perfect jumps. Single-use E-tanks were replaced with permanent upgrades that collected spare energy for later, another dumbing down of the game for the masses who couldn't handle the more mechanically challenging Mega Man 2. It was faster, with characters flying all over the screen during boss fights. Instead of getting upgrades after beating levels, you had to hunt them down in the levels. You had to backtrack, something every previous Mega Man game made a point of avoiding. On top of that, the story was a jarring shift in tone with only a passing allusion to the existence of anything that game before.
And yet, somehow, Mega Man X is considered one of the best games on the SNES, which spun off into a bunch of attempts to recapture the magic by making Mega Man X but better.
Now, obviously, there are some flaws in that comparison (Mega Man isn't even multiplayer, let alone an e-sport!), but I'd much rather a Starcraft 2 that was like Mega Man X, a game that had success going in a different direction, and is comparable to the classic game it's based on, but different enough that people can prefer one or the other for different reasons.
I don't want SC2 to end up like Mega Man 3: A game that was pretty good, but ultimately remembered as "That game that wasn't quite as good as the classic".
I don't want a Starcraft 2 that's just a rehash of ground Brood War trod better. I want one that's successful doing it's own thing, kind of similar to BW but notably different. Ten years from now, I want there to still be threads on Team Liquid talking about how SC2 is awful, while people like me cite the incredibly epic Stargirl vs Miniwheat finals of GSL XXXVI as examples of why SC2 is better than BW and there's a big epic 50 page flamewar that ends in everyone getting banned.
And that'll only happen if the games are different enough that one's not considered a better version of the other.
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Well I agree but.... You don't understand how good Megaman 9 and 10 is. Not at all. You used that analogy quite errenous. If Blizzard did a scbw remake in that same way, we would have an aaaawesome game. Not SC2, but an awesome game nontheless.
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On April 19 2011 14:08 By.Fantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:39 Nazza wrote:
3) BW mechanics are worse, thus SC2 is more fun
I'm not going to lie. SC2 mechanics are easier. But the OP makes arguments besides mechanics. Personally I think the effect SC2 mechanics have on the game are minimal, aside from acceleration/deceleration of certain units, and unit pathing.
. Better mechanics = more fun?I play both and honestly most of the time I laugh and have more fun and laughs when playing BW.... Lol remember those stupid goons can't go up the ramp and they keep getting bugged? Soo Funny hahaha! then you lose after that? lolz It was so funny xD SC2 has better mechanics sure but I never enjoyed forcefielding(1FFFFFFFF) and microing my units like in BW....I like what BW has to do when your in battle.. from splitting zealot storming stasising defusing mines... Some people might find stupid AI frustrating because all they care about is winning. But I have fun while playing BW... In SC2 I have more fun people who waste their time insulting me and spamming me rather than actually playing it... P.S I only recently started playing BW and SC2.... And I only watched like 3 VODS....
i'm saying that its false, if you actually read the statement below.
Also, personally i'm not saying that SC2 should be exactly like BW. some units in BW just do not fit in with modern mechanics like autocast. Defilers? A unit that has infinite mana that can one-shot everything and nullify all damage. Yeah that's really balanced with smartcast. Scouts? Other useless units/abilities? No thanks.
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Let me ask a question: Isnt it a bit hippocryting to say, that "we dont want sc2 to change into BW but learn from it" This basicly means, that sc2 in your opinion, should take alot things from BW and thus, becoming BW itself with exception of few units and better graphics. But yet, you are trying hard to claim that you are not wanting sc2 to become BW.
I know, and you know it too; you want sc2 to transform into BW, no matter how you are trying to disguise your intentions. I am not the one who gets fooled here.
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On April 19 2011 20:02 Kirigix wrote:
Let me ask a question: Isnt it a bit hippocryting to say, that "we dont want sc2 to change into BW but learn from it" This basicly means, that sc2 in your opinion, should take alot things from BW and thus, becoming BW itself with exception of few units and better graphics. But yet, you are trying hard to claim that you are not wanting sc2 to become BW.
I know, and you know it too; you want sc2 to transform into BW, no matter how you are trying to disguise your intentions. I am not the one who gets fooled here.
So, what's your point? That none of the merits of BW should be even considered in its sequel? Hm :|
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Thanks for the great post.
However, the thing is that BW has been out for so long that people have been easily been able to get so good. If you're asking for a nerf/buff to units, then it'll change the entire game again.
I think one fundamental thing you've forgot to think about is what the real purpose of Starcraft 2 was for. Starcraft 2 was for the entire audience of BW to look foward to new gameplay, new units, etc.
Admittedly, Starcraft 2 is still flawed and there are many wrong mechanics within the game. But, think about how long Blizzard spent polishing their first game. Starcraft 2 won't be the game that we all want right away, that's why we have patches every now and then, to change the game to make is better for everyone.
Also, Starcraft 2 wasn't released soley for e-sports, SC2 was released for entertainment purposes, so is WoW, all game are released to entertain the audience of whoever buys them.
I'll agree with most of your post, SC2 is a very linear game, and compared to SC1, you don't have to be as good to play as a popular professional. But still, let it develop, and I'm sure that we'll all be screaming at how amazing it is.
Seriously though, how long has this game been released? Starcraft 2 is probably one of the main reasons why e-sports is becoming so exponentially popular today. think about it, it's been released for so little time and yet so many tournaments have come and gone and are still on their way.
I'm sure that many more will come with Starcraft 2, compared to BW, it's still a very young game.
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On April 19 2011 20:11 Resolve wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 20:02 Kirigix wrote:
Let me ask a question: Isnt it a bit hippocryting to say, that "we dont want sc2 to change into BW but learn from it" This basicly means, that sc2 in your opinion, should take alot things from BW and thus, becoming BW itself with exception of few units and better graphics. But yet, you are trying hard to claim that you are not wanting sc2 to become BW.
I know, and you know it too; you want sc2 to transform into BW, no matter how you are trying to disguise your intentions. I am not the one who gets fooled here. So, what's your point? That none of the merits of BW should be even considered in its sequel? Hm :|
Point is, that here is people who try very hard to claim that they dont want sc2 to become BW like one guys besides be mentioned. But they are wrong, despite their disguised arguments, they do want SC2 to become BW.
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