EPTThe Close Spawning Position [poll] - Page 13
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Philymaniz
United States177 Posts
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Rexar123
Croatia49 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 06 2011 22:54 guoguo wrote: I'd like for there to be some real four player maps instead of this fake 4 main 3 position silliness. That said close spawns are ridiculously imbalanced and the current maps that allow it should either remove them or be removed. Isn't Tal'darim altar a real 4 player map? | ||
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zook
United States19 Posts
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dNa
Germany591 Posts
for Progames with spectators or even televised matches i can see, why the 'random'factor is not really something appreciated. The Reasons for those would be -Money is on the line, some Races have a harder time to deal with those closer positions, since there might be an imbalance. I myself would be pretty pissed if those matches for thousands of dollars would come down to a coinflip spawnwise. - for the spectators a 6minute game is widely considered a letdown. while i miself enjoy some really nice micromanagement in progames in the earlly game due to close positions, i kinda see why this is not interesting for other people. however in the average laddermatch neither of those two arguments fit. actually even the opposite is the case. In fact, while playing, i pretty much enjoy the wide variation of different strategies i need going into a 4player map. i would really not enjoy metalopolis as much, as i do it now, if blizzard would decide to take some of those different possibilities away. | ||
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theMarkovian
Netherlands183 Posts
Too close rush distances mean early pressure is really powerful, in which Terran (especially) and Protoss is much better than Zerg. Zerg doesn't have something like 2Rax, which is a safe (and really powerful) form of early pressure without the allin. Zergs early pressure options are very allin and scoutable in comparison (mainly baneling busts). Another problem is, IMO, that Zerg has little way to bust an entrenched position without going allin in the early/mid game. And if you do manage to score an advantage without going allin, there is no place to get a third to "get more ahead"; you either take the expo in his backyard that will be constant under pressure or one so far away you can't defend it from drops/harass. All that is left is once again jamming your army into his defensive position :S In conclusion, the close positions on current maps are too short for Zerg to have a solid, balanced, fighting chance against Protoss and Terran. People also have to realize that rushes and early aggression still work on larger maps. You don't need Steppes of War distances for 2Rax etc. to be viable, pros still do it on the HUGE GSL maps. A larger (not necessarily Taldarim Altar size huge) map does not negate early pressure and force macro play, it just balances aggression vs. macro (better player wins) and makes the game more variated (instead of only having the aggressive option on short rush spawns). Please Blizzard, fix the too short spawn distances. And while your at it, put some lowered neutral depots on the ramps... | ||
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Also, when you realize that terrans can expand with out taking the risk of expanding because they have liftoff, bunkers and mules. Their are also mechanics to help take a 3rd like PF's and sensor towers. Terran can pin you at home too with the threat of things like banshees, drops, or hellions. Zerg has creep spread for vision and mobility things like nydus, huge drops, mutas to force defensive play. What does protoss have that compares to these things that help take a 3rd? Warp in is really about it. BTW, against zerg, toss has to choke the top of their ramp to 1 space otherwise zerg can just kill them with lings and if you don't get a sentry out in time zerg can take down protoss's first gateway and the wall with just lings. Then when the mid game comes we have to start squishing the fat assed stalkers through this choke to defend from air raids on our main and natural or 3rd. Protoss drops aren't nearly as scary as terrans or zergs for many reasons. Protoss's only real harass units are phoenix and dt's both get shut down by 1 missile turret. Also the fact that a 125/50 stalker has less dps than a 50$ unstimmed marine, that's toss's anti air. Think of how many can fit into a space like the area behind a mineral line, go on a diet stalkers! Also, missile turrets have around 3x the AA dps of a cannon which costs more. So if zergs shouldn't get close by ground, should toss not have to get close by air? I am so annoyed with the whole zerg mentality that they should be able to fast expand in any matchup, defend any aggression without taking damage, have extremely cost effective units, map control all the time, and tier 3 that is almost impossible to deal with (ever try fighting a zerg ground army backed up with 4+ broodlords and infestors?) Most zerg's idea of balance isn't balance at all, it's simply what favors them. They just love to play the victim and are extremely stubborn about being creative. (Notice I said MOST zergs not ALL!) As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 nexus and every matchup and complaining until the game is changed making it defensible against anything. That is pretty much what zerg has done in starcraft 2. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it. Before all the zergs start flaming me saying they don't have cost effective units, lings for example are 25$ a piece and are the fastest thing in the game. 2 roaches cost only 25 minerals more than 1 stalker, but roaches get +2 per upgrade and stalkers get +1. With the fact that they are protoss's main anti air, and to get blink is 150/150 plus the 150/100 for twilight their only upgrade, compared to 100/100 speed upgrade for roaches, who can also get tunneling, burrow and regeneration. Or how about the fact that protoss ground units need 100/100 armor upgrade and a 200/200 shield upgrade to get the same benefit that roaches get from just the carapace upgrade. Whew, a little off subject there. But I just wanted to point out that not every change in the game has to make life easier on zerg. I've played quite a bit with all the races. The most annoying thing for me as zerg is the early game and their shitty anti air in that time. But even when I play zerg, their mid/late game seems very strong to me. Ultras, and broodlords seem amazing to me and I actually hear zergs complain about them. Banlings give zerg the ability to trade their resources for the opponents stuff, that is a nice thing to have when your economy is superior. I just wish as much attention was payed to promoting protoss macro play, as zergs. I feel like zerg is the strongest race right now, and I honestly can think of a few maps being changed to favor them, yet I can't think of 1 example of a map being changes so it helps favor protoss. Meanwhile, zerg gets a buff in almost every patch, and toss gets a nerf in every patch. I think a lot of zergs won't be satisfied until picking zerg before a match is like pushing the "I WIN" button. Getting buffs + map changes to improve a race at the same time is to drastic. /end rant | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
I feel like the reason metal for example is bad when spawned close positions has nothing to do with rush distance at all, besides what does distance mean for a protoss when he can warp in wherever he placed a pylon? Early game it does not matter where he spawns really, it just depends on how good you to fend of early pressure. That map is bad close ground positions for zerg due to the fact that you can not possibly take any reasonble 3rd base and therefor is stuck in mid-game. So, if you are zerg and spawn against a toss or terran you have to go ling/muta/(baneling) if you want to expand to other main for example. (the only way to get map control) That compositions is good cross positions because you have the possibilty for counter attack and to kill off reinforcement when he pushes. You also have a much better "harrass angles" for your mutas. Close spot doesn't work the same way, you can not counter attack because his army is in the way when he is pushing, taking of reinforcement is not feasible because of the same reasoning. And getting to your opponents mineral line for worker harrass is way akward for mutas. They have to take a long loop around that leaves you open for any pressure, in other words you can not take your mutas back to defend in time if he pushes. The strongest build zerg can do close pos. on metal is roach/lings all-ins imo, if the protoss FE, to strike before he get his colossus/void rays up. If the protoss do some weird 1 base Stargate or DT build you defend that, while trying to deny his expand. Terran tank pushes is really strong close positions and is darn hard to defend against. Or you can go for ninja expos at gold or main, and pray that your opponent do not scout. We can compare it to the map Steppes of war, which had really close rush distance however if you had a game that lasted longer than the midgame the map were pretty balanced, with relative easy to take third, imo. The fourth was a bit undefined though however that is another question. Too bad not many games lasted that long on that map. If you wonder, I voted no on the poll since taking away that factor from the game is not any solution to the problematic feature that arises from it, that is just to ignore the problem altogheter. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:00 Reborn8u wrote: Honestly, I'm just sick of so many changes that favor zerg. As protoss I hate spawning close by air on metalopolis or shattered temple. Drops and mutas make me pull my hair out when I'm trying to take a 3rd and it isn't that far by land. In case you haven't noticed, bio and zerg armies have far greater mobility than toss. Med evacs, stim, nydus, creep, all help with mobility also the fact that protoss have slow units like sentries and colossus that are crucial to them winning a fight, and must be protected. I'm sure a lot of other protoss feel this way too, but you don't hear half as many protoss's whining that the game be changed to favor them as you do zerg players. Also, when you realize that terrans can expand with out taking the risk of expanding because they have liftoff, bunkers and mules. Their are also mechanics to help take a 3rd like PF's and sensor towers. Terran can pin you at home too with the threat of things like banshees, drops, or hellions. Zerg has creep spread for vision and mobility things like nydus, huge drops, mutas to force defensive play. What does protoss have that compares to these things that help take a 3rd? Warp in is really about it. BTW, against zerg, toss has to choke the top of their ramp to 1 space otherwise zerg can just kill them with lings and if you don't get a sentry out in time zerg can take down protoss's first gateway and the wall with just lings. Then when the mid game comes we have to start squishing the fat assed stalkers through this choke to defend from air raids on our main and natural or 3rd. Protoss drops aren't nearly as scary as terrans or zergs for many reasons. Protoss's only real harass units are phoenix and dt's both get shut down by 1 missile turret. Also the fact that a 125/50 stalker has less dps than a 50$ unstimmed marine, that's toss's anti air. Think of how many can fit into a space like the area behind a mineral line, go on a diet stalkers! Also, missile turrets have around 3x the AA dps of a cannon which costs more. So if zergs shouldn't get close by ground, should toss not have to get close by air? I am so annoyed with the whole zerg mentality that they should be able to fast expand in any matchup, defend any aggression without taking damage, have extremely cost effective units, map control all the time, and tier 3 that is almost impossible to deal with (ever try fighting a zerg ground army backed up with 4+ broodlords and infestors?) Most zerg's idea of balance isn't balance at all, it's simply what favors them. They just love to play the victim and are extremely stubborn about being creative. (Notice I said MOST zergs not ALL!) As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 nexus and every matchup and complaining until the game is changed making it defensible against anything. That is pretty much what zerg has done in starcraft 2. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it. Before all the zergs start flaming me saying they don't have cost effective units, lings for example are 25$ a piece and are the fastest thing in the game. 2 roaches cost only 25 minerals more than 1 stalker, but roaches get +2 per upgrade and stalkers get +1. With the fact that they are protoss's main anti air, and to get blink is 150/150 plus the 150/100 for twilight their only upgrade, compared to 100/100 speed upgrade for roaches, who can also get tunneling, burrow and regeneration. Or how about the fact that protoss ground units need 100/100 armor upgrade and a 200/200 shield upgrade to get the same benefit that roaches get from just the carapace upgrade. Whew, a little off subject there. But I just wanted to point out that not every change in the game has to make life easier on zerg. I've played quite a bit with all the races. The most annoying thing for me as zerg is the early game and their shitty anti air in that time. But even when I play zerg, their mid/late game seems very strong to me. Ultras, and broodlords seem amazing to me and I actually hear zergs complain about them. Banlings give zerg the ability to trade their resources for the opponents stuff, that is a nice thing to have when your economy is superior. I just wish as much attention was payed to promoting protoss macro play, as zergs. I feel like zerg is the strongest race right now, and I honestly can think of a few maps being changed to favor them, yet I can't think of 1 example of a map being changes so it helps favor protoss. Meanwhile, zerg gets a buff in almost every patch, and toss gets a nerf in every patch. I think a lot of zergs won't be satisfied until picking zerg before a match is like pushing the "I WIN" button. Getting buffs + map changes to improve a race at the same time is to drastic. /end rant Close pos makes hard for zerg due to their unit production mechanics - I don't think anyone disagrees here. But you just complaining w/o any arguments. Just "mutas are strong..., roaches are cheap...", etc. Does not make any sense at all you arguments. So what if roaches gets +2 attack, do you know that all toss ground units gets upgrades by just upgrading melee, while zerg missile upgrades and melee are different, why you don't mention that? And yeah roaches are cost effective but they are very supply non-effective. You are just looking from you perspective - you are loosing vs. zergs and because of that complaining. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:00 Reborn8u wrote: ... As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 nexus and every matchup and complaining until the game is changed making it defensible against anything. That is pretty much what zerg has done in starcraft 2. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it... That's just an absurd statement (as is almost everything else you said). The races play differently. You can't just do straight up comparisons with races that approach and use expansions in wildly different ways. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:20 Alpina wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2011 00:00 Reborn8u wrote: Honestly, I'm just sick of so many changes that favor zerg. As protoss I hate spawning close by air on metalopolis or shattered temple. Drops and mutas make me pull my hair out when I'm trying to take a 3rd and it isn't that far by land. In case you haven't noticed, bio and zerg armies have far greater mobility than toss. Med evacs, stim, nydus, creep, all help with mobility also the fact that protoss have slow units like sentries and colossus that are crucial to them winning a fight, and must be protected. I'm sure a lot of other protoss feel this way too, but you don't hear half as many protoss's whining that the game be changed to favor them as you do zerg players. Also, when you realize that terrans can expand with out taking the risk of expanding because they have liftoff, bunkers and mules. Their are also mechanics to help take a 3rd like PF's and sensor towers. Terran can pin you at home too with the threat of things like banshees, drops, or hellions. Zerg has creep spread for vision and mobility things like nydus, huge drops, mutas to force defensive play. What does protoss have that compares to these things that help take a 3rd? Warp in is really about it. BTW, against zerg, toss has to choke the top of their ramp to 1 space otherwise zerg can just kill them with lings and if you don't get a sentry out in time zerg can take down protoss's first gateway and the wall with just lings. Then when the mid game comes we have to start squishing the fat assed stalkers through this choke to defend from air raids on our main and natural or 3rd. Protoss drops aren't nearly as scary as terrans or zergs for many reasons. Protoss's only real harass units are phoenix and dt's both get shut down by 1 missile turret. Also the fact that a 125/50 stalker has less dps than a 50$ unstimmed marine, that's toss's anti air. Think of how many can fit into a space like the area behind a mineral line, go on a diet stalkers! Also, missile turrets have around 3x the AA dps of a cannon which costs more. So if zergs shouldn't get close by ground, should toss not have to get close by air? I am so annoyed with the whole zerg mentality that they should be able to fast expand in any matchup, defend any aggression without taking damage, have extremely cost effective units, map control all the time, and tier 3 that is almost impossible to deal with (ever try fighting a zerg ground army backed up with 4+ broodlords and infestors?) Most zerg's idea of balance isn't balance at all, it's simply what favors them. They just love to play the victim and are extremely stubborn about being creative. (Notice I said MOST zergs not ALL!) As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 nexus and every matchup and complaining until the game is changed making it defensible against anything. That is pretty much what zerg has done in starcraft 2. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it. Before all the zergs start flaming me saying they don't have cost effective units, lings for example are 25$ a piece and are the fastest thing in the game. 2 roaches cost only 25 minerals more than 1 stalker, but roaches get +2 per upgrade and stalkers get +1. With the fact that they are protoss's main anti air, and to get blink is 150/150 plus the 150/100 for twilight their only upgrade, compared to 100/100 speed upgrade for roaches, who can also get tunneling, burrow and regeneration. Or how about the fact that protoss ground units need 100/100 armor upgrade and a 200/200 shield upgrade to get the same benefit that roaches get from just the carapace upgrade. Whew, a little off subject there. But I just wanted to point out that not every change in the game has to make life easier on zerg. I've played quite a bit with all the races. The most annoying thing for me as zerg is the early game and their shitty anti air in that time. But even when I play zerg, their mid/late game seems very strong to me. Ultras, and broodlords seem amazing to me and I actually hear zergs complain about them. Banlings give zerg the ability to trade their resources for the opponents stuff, that is a nice thing to have when your economy is superior. I just wish as much attention was payed to promoting protoss macro play, as zergs. I feel like zerg is the strongest race right now, and I honestly can think of a few maps being changed to favor them, yet I can't think of 1 example of a map being changes so it helps favor protoss. Meanwhile, zerg gets a buff in almost every patch, and toss gets a nerf in every patch. I think a lot of zergs won't be satisfied until picking zerg before a match is like pushing the "I WIN" button. Getting buffs + map changes to improve a race at the same time is to drastic. /end rant Close pos makes hard for zerg due to their unit production mechanics - I don't think anyone disagrees here. But you just complaining w/o any arguments. Just "mutas are strong..., roaches are cheap...", etc. Does not make any sense at all you arguments. So what if roaches gets +2 attack, do you know that all toss ground units gets upgrades by just upgrading melee, while zerg missile upgrades and melee are different, why you don't mention that? And yeah roaches are cost effective but they are very supply non-effective. You are just looking from you perspective - you are loosing vs. zergs and because of that complaining. So he did the same every Zerg does. Not that bad, is it? To topic: Close positions actually are bad, and more bad for Protoss. In PvT it is unfair because you can't have enough units in time to hold all-ins and you can't defend against tanks properly. It is just imbalanced. Closed positions in PvZ actually are balanced or even in favor of Zerg (funny thing is, no Zerg realized it yet). Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop unless you rush for Colossus, but if you rush for Colossus and the Zerg actually plays anything aside from the Hydra push (like Ling/Roach attacks, Mutalisks etc.) you can't defend that. You need to notice that every Protoss vs Zerg on closed positions does some kind of all-in. If you expect an all-in in the first place, just play a bit safer and then do your own attack based on what you scout. Because Protoss never gets a third on closed positions, he can't even turtle until mass VR. So i'm against closed positions because they mostly are huge coinflips. And because it is really bad for Protoss. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:40 dNa wrote: i voted 'no' because i don't want all maps to all have about the same distances in any position possible. for Progames with spectators or even televised matches i can see, why the 'random'factor is not really something appreciated. The Reasons for those would be -Money is on the line, some Races have a harder time to deal with those closer positions, since there might be an imbalance. I myself would be pretty pissed if those matches for thousands of dollars would come down to a coinflip spawnwise. - for the spectators a 6minute game is widely considered a letdown. while i miself enjoy some really nice micromanagement in progames in the earlly game due to close positions, i kinda see why this is not interesting for other people. however in the average laddermatch neither of those two arguments fit. actually even the opposite is the case. In fact, while playing, i pretty much enjoy the wide variation of different strategies i need going into a 4player map. i would really not enjoy metalopolis as much, as i do it now, if blizzard would decide to take some of those different possibilities away. But its imbalanced. Close positions are not fair, they put the Zerg player at a huge disadvantage. A ladder pool should be balanced otherwise its a joke. You really want to leave a huge imbalance in the map pool because taking it away may or may not compensate diversity? | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:15 Rexar123 wrote: im terran and i want to win vs zerg more often so dont eliminate close position I can't believe i'm helping terrans but, use ghosts. They are soo good against zerg. I honestly don't now why terrans do not use them. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:20 Alpina wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2011 00:00 Reborn8u wrote: Honestly, I'm just sick of so many changes that favor zerg. As protoss I hate spawning close by air on metalopolis or shattered temple. Drops and mutas make me pull my hair out when I'm trying to take a 3rd and it isn't that far by land. In case you haven't noticed, bio and zerg armies have far greater mobility than toss. Med evacs, stim, nydus, creep, all help with mobility also the fact that protoss have slow units like sentries and colossus that are crucial to them winning a fight, and must be protected. I'm sure a lot of other protoss feel this way too, but you don't hear half as many protoss's whining that the game be changed to favor them as you do zerg players. Also, when you realize that terrans can expand with out taking the risk of expanding because they have liftoff, bunkers and mules. Their are also mechanics to help take a 3rd like PF's and sensor towers. Terran can pin you at home too with the threat of things like banshees, drops, or hellions. Zerg has creep spread for vision and mobility things like nydus, huge drops, mutas to force defensive play. What does protoss have that compares to these things that help take a 3rd? Warp in is really about it. BTW, against zerg, toss has to choke the top of their ramp to 1 space otherwise zerg can just kill them with lings and if you don't get a sentry out in time zerg can take down protoss's first gateway and the wall with just lings. Then when the mid game comes we have to start squishing the fat assed stalkers through this choke to defend from air raids on our main and natural or 3rd. Protoss drops aren't nearly as scary as terrans or zergs for many reasons. Protoss's only real harass units are phoenix and dt's both get shut down by 1 missile turret. Also the fact that a 125/50 stalker has less dps than a 50$ unstimmed marine, that's toss's anti air. Think of how many can fit into a space like the area behind a mineral line, go on a diet stalkers! Also, missile turrets have around 3x the AA dps of a cannon which costs more. So if zergs shouldn't get close by ground, should toss not have to get close by air? I am so annoyed with the whole zerg mentality that they should be able to fast expand in any matchup, defend any aggression without taking damage, have extremely cost effective units, map control all the time, and tier 3 that is almost impossible to deal with (ever try fighting a zerg ground army backed up with 4+ broodlords and infestors?) Most zerg's idea of balance isn't balance at all, it's simply what favors them. They just love to play the victim and are extremely stubborn about being creative. (Notice I said MOST zergs not ALL!) As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 nexus and every matchup and complaining until the game is changed making it defensible against anything. That is pretty much what zerg has done in starcraft 2. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it. Before all the zergs start flaming me saying they don't have cost effective units, lings for example are 25$ a piece and are the fastest thing in the game. 2 roaches cost only 25 minerals more than 1 stalker, but roaches get +2 per upgrade and stalkers get +1. With the fact that they are protoss's main anti air, and to get blink is 150/150 plus the 150/100 for twilight their only upgrade, compared to 100/100 speed upgrade for roaches, who can also get tunneling, burrow and regeneration. Or how about the fact that protoss ground units need 100/100 armor upgrade and a 200/200 shield upgrade to get the same benefit that roaches get from just the carapace upgrade. Whew, a little off subject there. But I just wanted to point out that not every change in the game has to make life easier on zerg. I've played quite a bit with all the races. The most annoying thing for me as zerg is the early game and their shitty anti air in that time. But even when I play zerg, their mid/late game seems very strong to me. Ultras, and broodlords seem amazing to me and I actually hear zergs complain about them. Banlings give zerg the ability to trade their resources for the opponents stuff, that is a nice thing to have when your economy is superior. I just wish as much attention was payed to promoting protoss macro play, as zergs. I feel like zerg is the strongest race right now, and I honestly can think of a few maps being changed to favor them, yet I can't think of 1 example of a map being changes so it helps favor protoss. Meanwhile, zerg gets a buff in almost every patch, and toss gets a nerf in every patch. I think a lot of zergs won't be satisfied until picking zerg before a match is like pushing the "I WIN" button. Getting buffs + map changes to improve a race at the same time is to drastic. /end rant Close pos makes hard for zerg due to their unit production mechanics - I don't think anyone disagrees here. But you just complaining w/o any arguments. Just "mutas are strong..., roaches are cheap...", etc. Does not make any sense at all you arguments. So what if roaches gets +2 attack, do you know that all toss ground units gets upgrades by just upgrading melee, while zerg missile upgrades and melee are different, why you don't mention that? And yeah roaches are cost effective but they are very supply non-effective. You are just looking from you perspective - you are loosing vs. zergs and because of that complaining. I guess the real point I was making is close by air or cross positions from zerg just as much of a disadvantage for protoss as close positions is for zerg. So that by only getting one and not the other isn't balanced imo. If a map can be zerg favored or protoss/terran favored depending on a random spawn positions that is more balanced than zerg always getting a favorable spawn position. So if you don't want the randomness and the close postions are too much of a problem, remove the map. Don't just make it zerg favored. Also, Zerg has been receiving some pretty significant buffs lately. Changing the maps and giving them buff at the same time could be hard to correct later if it does make them too strong. Most of the other stuff in my post was just pointing out that I feel majority of the zerg community expects way to much from patches and map changes. I mostly play toss, and I've had to almost re-learn pvz several times because of changes to the game that help zerg. Meanwhile, zergs can do the same things they have always been doing in this matchup, it's just better now. Many of the things I've pointed out aren't just problems I have, I watch pro streams everyday and I see them struggle with the same issues I do. Except they don't complain about it the way many zerg pro's and streamers do. It's starting to seem like a case of the squeaky wheels get the oil. About the whole upgrade thing, it is kinda off subject but you pointed out 1 thing that gives protoss an advantage for attack upgrades affecting all their units. Which btw most zergs get range attack upgrades and make roach hydra (not lings) so it doesn't even affect them. Did you see how many things I pointed out that give zerg an inherent racial upgrade advantage? | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:52 Reborn8u wrote: I guess the real point I was making is close by air or cross positions from zerg just as much of a disadvantage for protoss as close positions is for zerg. So that by only getting one and not the other isn't balanced imo. If a map can be zerg favored or protoss/terran favored depending on a random spawn positions that is more balanced than zerg always getting a favorable spawn position. So if you don't want the randomness and the close postions are too much of a problem, remove the map. Don't just make it zerg favored. Also, Zerg has been receiving some pretty significant buffs lately. Changing the maps and giving them buff at the same time could be hard to correct later if it does make them too strong. Most of the other stuff in my post was just pointing out that I feel majority of the zerg community expects way to much from patches and map changes. I mostly play toss, and I've had to almost re-learn pvz several times because of changes to the game that help zerg. Meanwhile, zergs can do the same things they have always been doing in this matchup, it's just better now. Many of the things I've pointed out aren't just problems I have, I watch pro streams everyday and I see them struggle with the same issues I do. Except they don't complain about it the way many zerg pro's and streamers do. It's starting to seem like a case of the squeaky wheels get the oil. About the whole upgrade thing, it is kinda off subject but you pointed out 1 thing that gives protoss an advantage for attack upgrades affecting all their units. Which btw most zergs get range attack upgrades and make roach hydra (not lings) so it doesn't even affect them. Did you see how many things I pointed out that give zerg an inherent racial upgrade advantage? Pretty significant buffs for zerg you mean change to infestor in like 3-4 months? Zerg is the race which was changed the least. As protoss I hate spawning close by air on metalopolis or shattered temple Well for mutas it does not matter that much what positions you are on, they are fast so you can harass when you are on cross map as well. And I may as well say that phoenix and voids are very strong on close air, right? As a protoss I feel like it would be equivalent to every protoss player doing a 15 Nexus It's such a nonsense. So you are comparing zerg FE with protoss FE? Zerg NEEDS extra base for unit production. I can't believe some people still think that zerg can play on 1 base. They make almost no units until they have 2x your economy and you can't even punish them for it Again because that's how zerg works. If zerg is not droning then he will be significantly behind if toss does not make a push. Seriously half of your statements do not make any sense. Ant other half is about terran(?) while you are talking about zerg. | ||
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