• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:28
CEST 16:28
KST 23:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20257Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced24BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 614 users

Thoughts on Design - Why Input From Pros Can Suck - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
March 14 2011 02:58 GMT
#101
On March 14 2011 08:53 Sanguinarius wrote:
This is an excellent post. I also feel we are seeing changes so fast that the meta game doesn't really have a chance to develop and change. I want to see these strats play out and then see what counters fall out of the game. If we keep calling everything OP and nurfing everything, we might as well be playing Warcraft 1 where every unit is identical.


I don't think the problem is that the meta game has not the time to develop so much as it will not develop. It maybe just me, but I get the vibe that the general community has never moved beyond the Beta mentality. So long as the game is not widely beloved by upper tier old school legends, the fault is squarely on the Blizzard's shoulders. So its up to them to complain the loudest to get favorable patch results, rather then do the best with what they got.

This is not say some tweaking is needed, but I think one of the biggest Tweaks SC2 needs is in the mentalities of 90% of the playing community. If you lose a lot to something, make a note of it sure, but spending more time creating work arounds. I get the feeling though, that if a pro comments on balance, it trickles down to the average player and legitimizes mechanical complaints rather then blaming your own self for being bad.

Notice if a pro comments, it is usually after many many hours of grinding out games against top players, and it is usually a comment on a specific timing window that is being heavily abused in some fashion, where unit compositions and economic management align to create an extremely unfavorable and "imbalanced" situation. They may be able to beat it, but the resulting positions are compromised to such a degree that a similar high level opponent could easily exploit the vulnerability and earn a "cheap" win.

Contrast this to the majority of balance complaints that flatly call a whole unit imbalanced, or worse, and entire race. It is clearly more or less players venting frustration at their own faults, but the act of blaming it on Blizzard rather then the player is far too legitimized in the eyes of the community to allow for a stable meta game to develop. At least on the broad scale of things.
BanelingXD
Profile Joined April 2010
130 Posts
March 14 2011 05:08 GMT
#102
To the above poster I'd just comment that even if units were :useless" in BW they all had a role. the same cant be said about SC2. What is the purpose of the reaper? To explot badly designed Blizzard terrain and look cool. What a waste! The Mothership? The carrier? Sensor towers? Ridiculous deathball pathing? They serve no purpose. This is bad design and that falls squarely on the developers who followed the flawed philosophy of a designer of bad games. And ultimately the blame lay with Blizz who I suspect is just milking SC2 for a giant name-based money grab.
0 harvesters, 2700 minerals per minute. Mules are totally balanced!
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
March 14 2011 05:26 GMT
#103
On March 13 2011 23:22 IdrA wrote:
not true at all that youll only get info on the current metagame
some z's have been saying since the beta that immortal ht compositions are just as overpowered pvz as collosus builds, and theyre just now starting to see use and success


blizzard gets 2 things from the competitive community, feedback and replays. if the standard metagame are collosus builds, for sure you're going to get more info on the standard builds than immortal/ht. as you said, only some zergs comment on immortal/ht, but every zerg will comment on collosus.

zerg issues with collosus are one of the few things i think has been out long enough for blizzard to make changes. we've gone through 5 seasons. immortal/ht has not been as widespread, and thus not as much data.
GhostFall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States830 Posts
March 14 2011 05:44 GMT
#104
On March 14 2011 00:30 Kazang wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Removing KA does not remove gameplay.

This and your previous thread have been centralized around this supposed issue. While you line of thinking is not "wrong" as such, it is not in line with what the design of the game is and you are looking at from the wrong perspective.
KA is mechanic that stagnates, that causes over reliance on a mechanic (warpgates) instead of using a more varied array of styles and more interesting strategies than just warp-in -> storm.

KA is not being removed because it is not balanced (although it can be argued that it is unbalanced, that is not the issue here) who was complaining about it before this? What pros thought it was grievously imbalanced? I would wager there weren't very many who thought KA was the reason they find it difficult to beat Protoss.
The KA change, and in fact the "Design" of the game is centred around being fun, entertaining and skilful.
Warp-in storm is just a dumb mechanic, dumb as in stupid, not clever. There is no thought, no planing, no strategy, no tension, no skill factor.
Where are the intrinsic unit tensions between Ghost and Templar if they are never on the field with enough energy to storm for more than 5 seconds? Where is the multipronged drop harass and skirmished based play if Drops and small attacks that take planning, time and resources to execute are stopped dead by instant warp in?
Ling run-bys? The Muta harass? Infestor harass (although HT can still feedback on warp in)?
All severely hindered by KA.

KA actually reduces the number of viable strategies and tactics that the game can offer, not the other way around.
HT on the other hand do not need to have instant storm on warp in to be viable.


Another example of this similar effect of a nerf making more strategies viable not less.
Bunker build time:
What pro, or indeed who at all is complaining the bunker builds to fast? Quite a few pros have been quite vocal about being annoyed that blizzard is in their opinion wasting their time making tiny changes such as those to the bunker.
The issue is not balance, it's more likely that bunker rushes can too easily end a game and result in that repetitive stagnation that you are keen to avoid. Bunker rushes are so good that they are pretty much always worth doing against zerg. Example July Vs Nada, Nada Bunker rushes every game.

Bunker rushes are not grievously imbalanced, but they are probably too easy and too effective for the cost/risk, making them almost mandatory, like getting siege mode for tanks, it's not overpowered it's just such a good upgrade that it is required if you want to use tanks.
A similar parallel can be drawn with the bunker, but while siege mode increases strategic variety, fast, low risk bunkers reduce it by deciding games very quickly or by simply resulting in dull and repetitive strategy.


TLDR You are not wrong, but you are looking at the "issue" from the wrong perspective, even assuming there is an "issue" in the first place negatively colours your thoughts.
Most changes are not directly related to the mythical creature "balance" but how the game actually plays.


this is a good point, but how do you know that KA is restrictive on strategies. We don't know yet because its such a new strategy. Furthermore, aren't there considerably less drastic changes that can be done instead of completely removing said strategy. You could increase the wrap-in time, or take incontrols idea of adding a cooldown to storm. so many different alternatives.
aquanda
Profile Joined January 2003
United States477 Posts
March 14 2011 06:09 GMT
#105
On March 13 2011 23:22 Dommk wrote:
And same T's have been saying that the only way they can beat Zerg is by doing lame shit like Bunker rushing to block early hatcheries, or 2rax, but that isn't exactly the case either.

Probably because they haven't tried anything besides that, and when it fails or they attempt a poor unit combination which is easily countered (I don't think this exists in TvZ now that I think about it) they give up.

The fact that Terrans still do extremely well against Zerg yet have never even bothered incorporating units such as Ghosts or Ravens into their composition is pretty disgusting. Snipe, PDD, Seeker Missile are all insanely powerful yet I almost always see the same 3 units in every one of my ZvTs, because that's all they need to bother to make to win most of the time.

The same could be said for the Zerg side of the fence, but on a much smaller scale. Hydralisks are the only unit I absolutely never see in a ZvT, but for good reason. They are just awful for their cost.

Someone was actually telling me about a ZvT they saw on Idra's stream where the guy loaded up ghosts in medivacs and sent them around the map killing his Queens, drones, Overlords, and Mutas repeatedly. I honestly don't think that we are seeing even close to the full potential of how much Terran can do in the TvZ matchup. I blame it on Blizzard, because if winning TvZ wasn't as easy as making marines, tanks, and medivacs for the first 15-20 minutes of a game then the innovative Terran players would have found more creative ways to evolve this matchup. As it stands I feel like it's the most stagnant, because there are so few things that actually work for Zerg right now, which makes it extremely predictable.
Krehlmar
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1149 Posts
March 14 2011 06:18 GMT
#106
My five cents;

Buff things, instead of nerfing them.
Nerfing makes the game dull, buffing makes it more epic.
My Comment Doesnt Matter Because No One Reads It
aquanda
Profile Joined January 2003
United States477 Posts
March 14 2011 06:24 GMT
#107
On March 14 2011 06:03 teamsolid wrote:
Most of the stuff you listed only popped up like almost a decade into the game, so I'd just give it some time, and hope the expansions add some cool units/abilities.

All of the stuff you quoted was most definitely common knowledge well before 2008/2009 (a decade into the game). I remember doing almost every single thing listed by ~2003 (when I quit playing) because I had seen it done somewhere else or heard about it from a friend, not because I was a genius. If it was really never done until 2008 then there is no way I would have ever known about it, much less done it myself.
CellTech
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada396 Posts
March 14 2011 12:47 GMT
#108
I watched a random broodwar game yesterday (I suggest if you haven't, do so). The timings windows seemed to be a lot more frequent and shifted favor back and forth. Not to mention for Solid 30 minutes there was always a fight going on. Literally zero downtime for pure macro.
^ Probably a Troll Post
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
March 14 2011 12:55 GMT
#109
On March 14 2011 00:12 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2011 23:22 Dommk wrote:
Dayvi was talking to HuK on his stream and said something along the lines of "every pro thinks their race is the weakest race, I think that is a sign that we are doing a good job with balance"

Kind of is really

some z's have been saying since the beta that immortal ht compositions are just as overpowered pvz as collosus builds


And same T's have been saying that the only way they can beat Zerg is by doing lame shit like Bunker rushing to block early hatcheries, or 2rax, but that isn't exactly the case either.


results back one up and not the other


You mean like how no terrans in either GSL ro4 OR IEM top 6? Yeah zerg is OP as shit these days. Good call IdrA.
White-Ra fighting!
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
March 14 2011 13:09 GMT
#110
On March 14 2011 14:08 BanelingXD wrote:
To the above poster I'd just comment that even if units were :useless" in BW they all had a role. the same cant be said about SC2. What is the purpose of the reaper? To explot badly designed Blizzard terrain and look cool. What a waste! The Mothership? The carrier? Sensor towers? Ridiculous deathball pathing? They serve no purpose. This is bad design and that falls squarely on the developers who followed the flawed philosophy of a designer of bad games. And ultimately the blame lay with Blizz who I suspect is just milking SC2 for a giant name-based money grab.


I'm pretty sure that I have seen every unit in SC2 used more frequently and to better effect than the Dark Archon, Devourer, Scout, and Valkyrie were in BW. I could count the games I've seen any of them in on one hand. Motherships are currently used a lot in PvZ lategame. Carriers are pretty rare, yes, but there were stretches they were rare in BW too (unless you're Stork). Sensor towers are great lategame as well. Part of it is the lack of macro maps that's finally being addressed.
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
March 14 2011 13:27 GMT
#111
On March 14 2011 14:08 BanelingXD wrote:
To the above poster I'd just comment that even if units were :useless" in BW they all had a role. the same cant be said about SC2. What is the purpose of the reaper? To explot badly designed Blizzard terrain and look cool. What a waste! The Mothership? The carrier? Sensor towers? Ridiculous deathball pathing? They serve no purpose. This is bad design and that falls squarely on the developers who followed the flawed philosophy of a designer of bad games. And ultimately the blame lay with Blizz who I suspect is just milking SC2 for a giant name-based money grab.


Kinda hard to take this seriously as 50% of the things you listed have seen use in the GSL and other big tournaments. Sensor towers and motherships DO serve a purpose, reapers and carriers less so.

Also Blizzard milking SC2 for a quick money grab doesn't go well with the fact that they provide a large part of the price money of the GSL and other large tournaments.

TLDR: You seem mad about SC2 not being BW, something that's colouding you argument to the point where it's just a rant.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
March 15 2011 00:51 GMT
#112
How do you guys feel about the cartoonish graphics of sc2? I personally hate it. Infact every blizzard game now is going in the cartoonish direction and i cant understand why. WHY is cartoonish graphics better than real life ones? Personally i like more BW graphics (the feel of it) even tho i never played BW and just watched the proscene
sorry for dem one liners
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
March 15 2011 05:50 GMT
#113
On March 15 2011 09:51 NukeD wrote:
How do you guys feel about the cartoonish graphics of sc2? I personally hate it. Infact every blizzard game now is going in the cartoonish direction and i cant understand why. WHY is cartoonish graphics better than real life ones? Personally i like more BW graphics (the feel of it) even tho i never played BW and just watched the proscene


Warcraft 1+2+3, SC and BW ALL look cartoony to me. They are sprite based so they obviously look drawn, just like every old sprite based 8-16 bit console game.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 17:37:59
March 15 2011 17:37 GMT
#114
^^ Warcraft 3 is not sprite based but of course it does look cartoony ^^

On March 15 2011 09:51 NukeD wrote:
How do you guys feel about the cartoonish graphics of sc2? I personally hate it. Infact every blizzard game now is going in the cartoonish direction and i cant understand why. WHY is cartoonish graphics better than real life ones? Personally i like more BW graphics (the feel of it) even tho i never played BW and just watched the proscene


Personally I think SC2 looks amazing in comparison to brood war. Sprites are sprites no matter how "gritty." SC2 looks kind of crappy on low graphical settings, but there's no way around that.

I don't really know why people think it looks cartoony like warcraft 3 or WoW because I don't think it does (with higher graphical settings anyway). I guess it's similar to all those complaints about Diablo 3 when they announced that they were using colors other than brown and grey.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 15 2011 18:11 GMT
#115
In my opinion there's not gonna be much change in how Zerg is played. Zerg is based around defending what your opponents are throwing at you and you're limited to 9 combat units doing so. The fact that some units hardcounter other units so hard makes it impossible to vary your playstyle - you will get destroyed if you try to. Zerg will be all about defending the one big 2 base timing push your opponent is setting up and then remaxing and attacking asap. Zerg doesn't really have anything left to be figured out. You're always reacting and only got 9 combat units.
The only thing we're about to see is T and P changing their playstyles. If the vray colossi build in ZvP wasn't so extremely easy to pull of and so hard to defend then we would see the Immortal HT (Blink)Stalker build way more often. It absolutely demolishes Zerg and has no counter. Bad news: You will have to play as good as the zerg to make to it work though.
The fact that some things are so strong really hurts other stuff, that will never be found out, because people refuse to play an appearently worse build.

I also think IdrA and Artosis said it very well when they said that the current trend so far has been nerfing stuff instead of buffing other stuff. I think nerfing things is bad. You will lose a lot of variety (reapers come in mind) and the game will get more and more fragile.
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Bracket Day 2 - Final
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Clem vs Krystianer
uThermal vs SKillousLIVE!
Reynor vs MaNa
Lambo vs Gerald
RotterdaM1963
ComeBackTV 1725
IndyStarCraft 598
WardiTV384
CranKy Ducklings179
Rex152
3DClanTV 94
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1940
IndyStarCraft 598
Rex 152
BRAT_OK 65
MindelVK 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 48690
Horang2 5597
EffOrt 1401
Barracks 1380
Larva 1175
Stork 741
BeSt 632
firebathero 521
Soulkey 276
Hyun 211
[ Show more ]
Last 138
Rush 129
Dewaltoss 87
sorry 68
Shinee 67
Sharp 63
Sea.KH 58
Movie 55
sSak 52
Free 45
sas.Sziky 35
Shine 32
zelot 20
yabsab 19
Terrorterran 5
Dota 2
Gorgc4559
qojqva3450
XcaliburYe418
420jenkins228
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m1577
sgares375
oskar176
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor509
Other Games
B2W.Neo1764
Beastyqt1353
Hui .288
DeMusliM219
Fuzer 153
QueenE70
KnowMe37
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV29
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 57
• poizon28 19
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3760
• WagamamaTV814
League of Legends
• Nemesis2734
• Jankos1393
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3h 32m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
20h 32m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 19h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.