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On March 05 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 03:18 Wolf wrote:On March 04 2011 22:06 Sm3agol wrote:On March 04 2011 21:16 Wolf wrote:
What is economic cheese? Hahaha. If you're serious, then you need to leave all map discussion threads to people who actually somewhat know what they are talking about. Are you talking about normal econ builds, like 15 CC? Economic cheese is a retarded term that people started making for economic builds like 15 Hatchery. It's stupid and you can assume anyone who uses the term is also stupid.
economic cheese is a Z pumping drones blindly hoping he will not get attacked before 7'00 .. which actually is retarded and stupid ;-)
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On March 05 2011 08:39 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:On March 05 2011 03:18 Wolf wrote:On March 04 2011 22:06 Sm3agol wrote:On March 04 2011 21:16 Wolf wrote:
What is economic cheese? Hahaha. If you're serious, then you need to leave all map discussion threads to people who actually somewhat know what they are talking about. Are you talking about normal econ builds, like 15 CC? Economic cheese is a retarded term that people started making for economic builds like 15 Hatchery. It's stupid and you can assume anyone who uses the term is also stupid. economic cheese is a Z pumping drones blindly hoping he will not get attacked before 7'00 .. which actually is retarded and stupid ;-)
So does this mean we can immediately call anyone who uses the term econ cheese an idiot? Moderator approval??!!
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What's the rush distance on slag pits natural-to-natural in close positions? I find it interesting that the nat is actually more distant than the ramp, but still within good reach of the ramp, unlike metal.
I haven't been having problems ZVT Hatch-firsting on slag even in close positions so far, anyway. Maybe T's aren't familiar with it yet so they aren't punishing it as hard as they could? But there's also no PARTICULARLY great spot to try to drop a bunker.
On March 05 2011 08:39 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:On March 05 2011 03:18 Wolf wrote:On March 04 2011 22:06 Sm3agol wrote:On March 04 2011 21:16 Wolf wrote:
What is economic cheese? Hahaha. If you're serious, then you need to leave all map discussion threads to people who actually somewhat know what they are talking about. Are you talking about normal econ builds, like 15 CC? Economic cheese is a retarded term that people started making for economic builds like 15 Hatchery. It's stupid and you can assume anyone who uses the term is also stupid. economic cheese is a Z pumping drones blindly hoping he will not get attacked before 7'00 .. which actually is retarded and stupid ;-)
Double expand before gateway/pool/rax imo. I've done it in 4v4s!
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All blizzard needs to to is balance out the late game of Protoss better. Zerg vs Terran seems very close, but honestly when I watch ZvP or TvP, I always think that its a race for time to kill the toss player before they get their deathball
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-i have a HUGE problem with them Removing shakura's and keeping in Delta. Honestly keep the map that is Imbalanced even in mirror match-ups.
-And then adding a map that has close spawn positions that is a shorter rush distance then Steps...
-Then the desert map which is impossible for any race to take the gold vs Terran.
I do like the changes to Lost Temple though but honestly seems like the same crappy map pool with different names. Very Terran favored.
Just put the GSL maps in the ladder
(I am a terran player for those of you who think i am being bias'd)
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On March 05 2011 13:26 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 08:39 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On March 05 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:On March 05 2011 03:18 Wolf wrote:On March 04 2011 22:06 Sm3agol wrote:On March 04 2011 21:16 Wolf wrote:
What is economic cheese? Hahaha. If you're serious, then you need to leave all map discussion threads to people who actually somewhat know what they are talking about. Are you talking about normal econ builds, like 15 CC? Economic cheese is a retarded term that people started making for economic builds like 15 Hatchery. It's stupid and you can assume anyone who uses the term is also stupid. economic cheese is a Z pumping drones blindly hoping he will not get attacked before 7'00 .. which actually is retarded and stupid ;-) So does this mean we can immediately call anyone who uses the term econ cheese an idiot? Moderator approval??!!
cheese
If a cheese supposed to be something if scouted is easy to stop how the hell do you have an eco cheese after a FE? By the time you have the production going after this "FE" if you don't have the ability for potential consistent scouting then IMO you are doing something wrong. By the time you have 2 bases saturated enough to be beneficial to you all 3 races should have the ability to have speedy or durable mobile scouting.
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There really is no economic cheese. People may think of it as stupidly overdroning but honestly that's not cheese. Why? Because cheese is something more active in which the player is the aggressor that uses his BO to dictate the terms of the game (Initially at least until he either succeeds or fails)(If I proxy 2 gate you I'm pretty sure I'm controlling what you do).
Economic cheese isn't active at all rather it relies on our opponent to mess up and not punish you for it (There are a variety of ways to do this; for example, double expo, rush him, or tech and get cloaked banshees etc. (nydus)). In that case it's called being out played when the shittier player sits in his base and is inflexible. The player that doesn't overdrone can be (if he's any good) the active player for the rest of the game.
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Remove Shakuras but not Delta Quadrant? I want to have faith guys, I really do, but shit like this...
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On March 07 2011 04:07 wolfe wrote:
There really is no economic cheese. People may think of it as stupidly overdroning but honestly that's not cheese. Why? Because cheese is something more active in which the player is the aggressor that uses his BO to dictate the terms of the game (Initially at least until he either succeeds or fails)(If I proxy 2 gate you I'm pretty sure I'm controlling what you do).
Economic cheese isn't active at all rather it relies on our opponent to mess up and not punish you for it (There are a variety of ways to do this; for example, double expo, rush him, or tech and get cloaked banshees etc. (nydus)). In that case it's called being out played when the shittier player sits in his base and is inflexible. The player that doesn't overdrone can be (if he's any good) the active player for the rest of the game.
So an agressive Expo isn't active? I wouldn't call 15 Hatch economic cheese/all in. Even I won't 15 Nexus/CC because it isn't stated in the current state of the game. But in my opinion eco allin exists. The definition for that term is: You cannot hold it if your oponent plays standard, scouts late and that starts to make units to attack instead of double expanding or something. For example: Protoss goes for Double Nexus first on Xel'Naga or something against zerg and zerg goes for 15 Hatch or 14 Gas/14 Pool and scouts with the first lings. It's just impossible to hold if the zerg isn't retarded.
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Is it just me or do you feel that Typhon is pretty P favored in mid to late game? I feel that the small walk ways are pretty easy for toss to FF off and colossus to deal optimal splash damage to everything.
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FE = Usually safe.
Double FE in response to FE = Pretty safe
Blind Double FE = Dangerous.
However, the term "economic cheese" should not be used to refer to this. We already have a word for this kind of build, and it's greedy.
As a vague general rule of thumb, aggression beats greed beats turtling beats aggression, and you need good scouting (or luck) to determine when to switch from one "stance" to another.
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As a Zerg, I absolutely abhor Slag and Blackwater. They both make it incredibly difficult to take a third, and honestly, that puts me on 2 base vs. 2 base unless I take that risk.
Of course a good opponent exploits that because there's no way for me to have that kind of mobility and I lose.
Edit: And it's so damn hard to fight Protoss now that it's ridiculous IMO. Once they hit that critical mass I autolose and because it's so easy for them to turtle that's been happening so often.
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On March 07 2011 06:54 hmunkey wrote:
As a Zerg, I absolutely abhor Slag and Blackwater. They both make it incredibly difficult to take a third, and honestly, that puts me on 2 base vs. 2 base unless I take that risk.
Of course a good opponent exploits that because there's no way for me to have that kind of mobility and I lose.
Edit: And it's so damn hard to fight Protoss now that it's ridiculous IMO. Once they hit that critical mass I autolose and because it's so easy for them to turtle that's been happening so often.
What build are you going for? Backwater is a bad map, but Slag is extremely Zerg-favored according to Catz, provided that you play the map properly. I think the goal of a Z on Slag should be to deny the Protoss his natural as long as possible, so that he can't even afford the deathball.
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On March 05 2011 05:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 03:18 Wolf wrote:On March 04 2011 22:06 Sm3agol wrote:On March 04 2011 21:16 Wolf wrote:
What is economic cheese? Hahaha. If you're serious, then you need to leave all map discussion threads to people who actually somewhat know what they are talking about. Are you talking about normal econ builds, like 15 CC? Economic cheese is a retarded term that people started making for economic builds like 15 Hatchery. It's stupid and you can assume anyone who uses the term is also stupid.
Didn't it start with 12 Nexus in BW? Terrans would bunker rush in response to a 12 Nexus and Protosses would call it cheese, but Terrans responded saying that the 12 Nexus was economic cheese.
I wouldn't say a fast expansion is cheese, and I wouldn't say a bunker rush in response to a fast expansion is cheese, since neither rely on your opponent not being prepared.
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On March 07 2011 07:23 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 06:54 hmunkey wrote:
As a Zerg, I absolutely abhor Slag and Blackwater. They both make it incredibly difficult to take a third, and honestly, that puts me on 2 base vs. 2 base unless I take that risk.
Of course a good opponent exploits that because there's no way for me to have that kind of mobility and I lose.
Edit: And it's so damn hard to fight Protoss now that it's ridiculous IMO. Once they hit that critical mass I autolose and because it's so easy for them to turtle that's been happening so often. What build are you going for? Backwater is a bad map, but Slag is extremely Zerg-favored according to Catz, provided that you play the map properly. I think the goal of a Z on Slag should be to deny the Protoss his natural as long as possible, so that he can't even afford the deathball.
I agree- Slag is really difficult for me (Protoss). The Zerg can keep you on one base if he plays it right.
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I think a lot of people have tunnelvision regarding these maps and play them on auto pilot as if they were like any other.
I have had really good games on these so far where the maps made for interesting and unique dynamics. None of my games have gone either way because of a rush distance induced all in. I think we're kind of over that phase in the game now. Except 4 gate which is as annoying as always.
I kind of wish that we had a thread per map to discuss specifics. It all gets kind of lost in here.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199322
Blizzard is adding GSL maps to the ladder.
This is probably something they had in mind when they made these ladder changes. Suddenly, the removal of Shakuras makes sense: They had to make room for the new influx of giant maps (because there are people who like the smaller maps, after all), but they couldn't say why. Therefore, Blizzard's official reasonings are in fact dastardly lies. These aren't the new macro maps. They're the new micro maps!
Suddenly, we have a map pool of the 4 new maps, the 4 GSL maps, and probably one other Blizz map (my money's on Xelnaga). That's....a pretty good pool. I have 3 downvotes, and I only hate one map!
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EPT
