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Edit: My explanation of Lactic Acid may be inaccurate, but that's just the general idea.
Anyways, thanks everyone for your input! Recently after I started using a new desk, because of the shape and positioning I moved the keyboard quite far into the desk (the edge of the keyboard is about 1 foot away from the edge of the desk), unlike previously where it is just a few inches away. This causes my wrist to rest on the desk and my hand to be slightly elevated above the wrist (I always make keyboard sit up on their stands, not flat on table). I'm guessing this is what's the problem; I'm putting pressure onto the major veins leading right into the hand. I watched Day9's Daily #252 and then I realized I had drastically rearranged my keyboard positioning when I switched desks. Anyways, at least this is what I believe is causing the problem. It feels a just like Lactic Acid but it's not xD.
Hi so to be brief here. If you do not know what Lactic Acid is, read below
It's what your body releases sort of as a form of emergency energy. It's that burning sensation that you feel where you may feel a little tingly, numb, or even cold. This helps in the short-run but is bad health-wise if it occurs too much because essentially the acid is burning you and your muscles.
Now my "casual" APM is at 100, and my high APM when I am trying decently is 120. However, whenever I reach that 120, I start feeling Lactic Acid in my arm (left arm, I use right-handed keyboard set up).
I know that a "good" APM to play at as a pro is 200. However, here is the question.
When progamers play at 200 APM+, do they release Lactic Acid regularly? Let's say around 120 like for me? Or is it that the more accustomed you are to having higher APM, and therefore more strain on your body, your body becomes stronger and doesn't need Lactic Acid as soon? In this case perhaps a progamer would only release Lactic Acid at 180 or so, with 200 being their "trying hard" level of APM.
Reason for this question is simple... so I (and others reading this) are better informed of this and can stay healthy and improve our physical capabilities regarding the wonderful sport that is Starcraft 2. I can't imagine progamers constantly ignoring lactic acid every day and every hour they practice, but I want to be sure so I'm not pushing myself too fast.
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Its something which goes away over time as your body gets used to it.
I used to play Gunz the Duel to a very high level [ Korean made game], which required similiar APM to Starcraft, and for the first month or so, after about 30 mins of practise id feel that burning sensation in my arm, after awhile it went away and I played for near enough 4 years without it bothering me.
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what? I don't think that will happen at 120 APM. Its not about energy, its about oxygen and your not going to be cut off from oxygen in your arm unless your playing at like 1000 APM or you have a really tight rubber band around your arm. Most likely the numbness you feel is a result of some sort of strain in your muscles.
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I highly doubt playing SC2 is strenuous enough to generate lactic acid. I think you are misreading your physical cues.
Secondly, lactic acid doesn't damage your muscle. It's a signal that the muscle is being overworked but the body has compensatory mechanisms to get rid of lactic acid. You'll reach a steady state where as much lactic acid is removed as is being generated. If you do enough physical exercise, you increase the body's capacity to tolerate lactic acid, which is why marathon runners can do a 6 minute mile pace for 26 miles.
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Lactic acid begins building up when your body surpasses its aerobic threshold and you start using anaerobic oxidative pathways to generate the energy your muscles need to keep functioning. It causes the sharp pain that athletes get during hard aerobic workouts, but if you are experiencing lactic acid buildup while playing SC2 then something is wrong or (please take no offense) you're in really bad shape...
I'm no doctor but think it's more likely that you're pinching a nerve or getting a repetitive use injury a-la carpel tunnel. Maybe you should try stretching, changing position, or getting more exercise.
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Lactic acid is produced when the standard energy-generating reactions that take place in the muscles run out of oxygen. So if your muscles are consuming more oxygen than is being sent to them whilst playing sc2 then something is seriously wrong.
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I can't say anything about starcraft, since I average around 70-90 APM, but as a guitarist of 5 years who can play at around 13-15 nps consistently, I have some experience in building up hand speed.
I have never felt the sensation that you're describing after making sure that I was using proper technique, no matter how quickly I was playing. When playing guitar, or other instruments, it is very important for your hands and arms to be very loose, you don't want any tension, or that will cause the kind of feeling you're describing. Try to make sure that you don't have any tension in your arms or hands and make sure that you're in a position that is as comfortable as possible.
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TBH, it sounds like you are tensing up. Lactic acid can be release because you are clenching muscles.
Relax.
Do this excersize for us :
Type like this sd;flkhjasdfgkl;jasdl;fkjasdfl;kjhasdf';klsjdflo;jkhsf';lasdjf8i0[asuerlgkasjdfngvl;khjasdf
I did that in like 2 seconds. Insane apm. No lactic acid. You should be playing that relaxed. Look up the Alexander technique maybe.
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@Ssoulle
Omg I remember that game! Very fun and very "skill-ful" if you will, APM wise.
Ok so I'm a runner and learned from coaches and my health class that lactic acid was pretty much very bad. Good to know that it gets "removed" or whatnot.
This is strange. I'm healthy. I'm not fat, I don't exercise regularly but am still very athletic...
perhaps it is the way I am sitting or something? The way I position my arm? May be where I rest my arm (on a bump on the edge of my table) cuts off a little oxygen to the arm and over time (long long games) it starts causing the lactic acid?
I'm a runner so I know what lactic acid feels like, and it feels exactly like it. It's not the feeling you have when some part of your body falls asleep and feels very ticklish when you touch it.
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Yeah haha, I think you might no be aware what lactic acid is.
Lactic acid also known as Pyrovic acid, and it is an acid that is formed when your body isn't getting enough oxygen. Your body needs oxygen to change pyrovic acid into pyruvate. Which raises your body pH and gives you cramps. And there is absolutely no way your body is reaching it's respiration limits while playing starcraft.
It must be something else like stress or adrenaline. Or you weigh 400 pounds ^^;;
Edit: Im not absolutely sure what the tickling feeling is, but I know I feel it when I am laying down and I put all my weight on my shoulder. So it could be something like the your nerve fibers being compressed and the synaptic signals being interwined giving that weird feeling and tingling. Not absolutely sure however.
Edit2: Muscle fatigue is a very big possibility. Just how when you work out after a while you can't feel your hands, same thing can happen to your fingers. When you start playing games like Starcraft or Guitar Hero, or simply playing instruments in real life can yield a similiar effect. Keep playing and youll get used to it.
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On February 17 2011 12:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
@Ssoulle
Omg I remember that game! Very fun and very "skill-ful" if you will, APM wise.
Ok so I'm a runner and learned from coaches and my health class that lactic acid was pretty much very bad. Good to know that it gets "removed" or whatnot.
This is strange. I'm healthy. I'm not fat, I don't exercise regularly but am still very athletic...
perhaps it is the way I am sitting or something? The way I position my arm? May be where I rest my arm (on a bump on the edge of my table) cuts off a little oxygen to the arm and over time (long long games) it starts causing the lactic acid?
I'm a runner so I know what lactic acid feels like, and it feels exactly like it. It's not the feeling you have when some part of your body falls asleep and feels very ticklish when you touch it.
eh, you probably just have very weak forearm (finger) muscles. Just keep on playing and you'll get over it.
Make sure you are keeping very relaxed arms and hands while playing, if you tense up you are fighting two opposing muscles groups against each other which will tire you out very fast.
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I don't know how to help you OP.
I'd be very interested if someone had any ways to keep down mental exhaustion though. After every game which lasts longer than 20 minutes (I'm Zerg), I'm almost completely exhausted (mentally) even though I only have an average apm of about 170-180 while playing.
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It sounds like you just need to take bigger breaths of air  What skillz_man said is prob the most accurate one so far
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take a break, do warmups and stop if it feels sharp or authentically painful, sore is ok. As a classically trained guitarist at 14 I knew EXACTLY what your talking about, it feels unhealthy when your joints are on fire. As long as you don't overextend yourself and take appropriate breaks youll be fine after a little bit with stronger fingers and wrist muscles to boot.
Also: NEVER play with a sharply bent wrist like at a 90 degree angle. thats really bad for your nerves and will do damage over time.
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Maybe it's just muscle fatigue. As weird as it sounds, your muscles just need to get used to the kind of movements you use to play SC. It's just like finger fatigue when you learn a musical instrument.
The tingles make me think of a circulation issue. Maybe your sitting posture is hurting your back or shoulders, the desk is cutting off circulation where it meets your arm, or inflammation in your arm due to repetitive use is tweaking your nerves. Try stretching and keeping an erect posture while you play.
There's no chance it's lactic acid. SC2 isn't getting any part of your body over your aerobic threshold. Actually, it could be lactic acid caused by a circulation issue (due to inflammation or bad posture) -- but it's nothing to do with your APM increasing your metabolic demand.
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most likly u are experiencing a repetitive strain injury, if it is in ur hands-wrist then make sure u take a sec from playing to stretch them, if it is in ur neck and or ear then u are having neck strain and ur chair may not have proper lumbar support (i.e. lower back) and ur screen may not be at the correct height (correct hight is where ur eye level is in line with the top one third of the screen.
Also make sure u are taking breaks from time to time (eye strain, sore buttocks) and stretching (stiff joints) as well as drinking water (avoids headaches)
try these things and if u continue to experience pain or severe discomfit then i would go to see a doctor or nurse asap
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Lactate and lactic acid differ by one proton. It just depends on what the pH of the tissue in question is. You're just splitting hairs 
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eh, you probably just have very weak forearm (finger) muscles. Just keep on playing and you'll get over it.
Make sure you are keeping very relaxed arms and hands while playing, if you tense up you are fighting two opposing muscles groups against each other which will tire you out very fast.
Perhaps playing Zerg contributes to this a lot, especially when I need to spam 50+ pairs of lings ASAP and I don't know how to do that while holding down the button (still don't get it!)
@heishe
I HAVE THE SOLUTION! That mental exhaustion can easily be fixed in almost every situation by simply eating fruit, ESPECIALLY a banana. Omg in 10 minutes you'll feel so good. Not joking, I try to emphasize this so much, but try it out sometime ^_^.
@FinestHour
Perhaps another part of the problem is me breathing less when I'm playing? I haven't kept track so i don't know if i breathe less.
Maybe it's just muscle fatigue. As weird as it sounds, your muscles just need to get used to the kind of movements you use to play SC. It's just like finger fatigue when you learn a musical instrument.
Then, hopefully the main reason why this is happening is because I'm "reaching new heights" in my APM and speed? I remember back then when my APM was around 80 I would start feeling that numb/burning sensation when I pushed to my then-height of 100 ish.
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It might have to do with how you are holding your mouse, your arm position, and the fashion in which you move your mouse. I basically only make small movements with my hand because I use a high dpi setting on my mouse and I barely move the rest of my arm. I'm able to play around 200 apm fairly easily and without any fatigue. Also, try not to tense up, which I know can be hard because SC games can get tense at times. It's easier to move faster and more smoothly when you're relaxed.
Sidenote: Just hold down z to make a ton of zerglings. They won't start morphing immediately, but after holding the button down for like one second, it will basically morph all of your larva into zerglings in like a second. Just try it in a custom game.
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On my off-days of starcraft I hit the gym to cross-train for stamina.
Also I recommend some ANIMALPAK before your games to help out.
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There is no way in hell that playing starcraft at any apm is causing your body to produce lactic acid.
Sounds like you just need to relax your arm.
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in support of "lactate does not cause acidosis"
The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction
in support of "lactate does cause acidosis"
The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent conferences in the field of exercise physiology
..
Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a reduction in [SID], which causes an increase in [H+] to maintain electroneutrality.
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Apparently lactate doesn't get protonated (converted to lactic acid) under normal conditions in the muscle, so technically it always exists as lactate in the muscle. But muscles definitely produce lactate.
The only difference between lactate and lactic acid is one weakly bound hydrogen ion.
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thats not lactic acid thats carpal tunnel !
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I sometimes begin to feel stiff after playing for a few hours.
Just get up and move around a bit inbetween games. Have a stretch, it always makes me feel better.
(I go outside, have a smoke, get a drink, w/e)
It's probably just because your sitting in a position where your not exactly relaxed for extended periods of time.
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thats not lactic acid thats carpal tunnel !
Ok this is really starting to scare me. Or rather, I am quite worried right now. This seems to happen most commonly with people 30-60? I'm only 16. WTF!!!
Reading more about this, it seems quite likely. Weak hand grip? I always felt I couldn't hold my hand in a fist tightly. Repetitive motions?
It seems however this isn't really a disease or something? How do I get rid of it? This article says I might need a splint. Wtffff
Mood: disappointed.
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You can get lactic acid from APM? My wrists will give out long before my arm ever does.
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it could be that your table is too high (or your chair too low)
u can test it by just sitting on a pillow while u play, maybe u won't experience the numbness then
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you are probably sitting wrong.
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Just like working out you get "ripped". Some muscles get burnt down with lactic acid but they build up stronger over time. The faster that you increase your APM, the more accustomed your muscles will be and in time it won't be a bother to do 150+ APM.
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On February 17 2011 13:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Ok this is really starting to scare me. Or rather, I am quite worried right now. This seems to happen most commonly with people 30-60? I'm only 16. WTF!!! Reading more about this, it seems quite likely. Weak hand grip? I always felt I couldn't hold my hand in a fist tightly. Repetitive motions? It seems however this isn't really a disease or something? How do I get rid of it? This article says I might need a splint. Wtffff Mood: disappointed.
Well TLO has Carpal and Day9(i think he always talks about his carpal tunnel pillow  ) and their pretty young. Take it easy on the videogames. And when you play move your wrists around in circles to warm up.
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Just play more and your fingers will get used to it. To whomever said "I am not fat, I dont work out but I am athletic". Just because someone is skinny/not fat does not mean that they are in shape and vice versa. Thats a very misunderstood conception. Being in physical shape or not should not matter in terms of physicality capability playing starcraft but rather mental endurance.
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Just play more and your fingers will get used to it. To whomever said "I am not fat, I dont work out but I am athletic". Just because someone is skinny/not fat does not mean that they are in shape and vice versa. Thats a very misunderstood conception. Being in physical shape or not should not matter in terms of physicality capability playing starcraft but rather mental endurance.
True, and I guess sharing that didn't help much.
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I have no idea what you're talking about O_O
Maintaining 200+ apm isn't something that takes a lot of effort, although trying extra hard to be extra fast might.
There's no specific apm though, it's how much is "too high" for each person to maintain without effort I guess...
The whole thing seems pretty weird to me since i don't feel strain when my apm increases
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I've never felt that before while playing SC2 myself, thought it might be because you do something wrong as some people said. I mean, how relaxed in your arm while playing, not relaxed at all ,else this Lactic Acid won't realy happen. Both my arm are perfectly relax while playing, even when things are getting tight.
I doubt progamers have such a problem, if you'd run like a proffesional football player you'd get your lactic acid in your legs, a proffesional football player won't 'just get that'.
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Hand Stretches.
I would give you a link to some but I cant find any.
There amazing and keep your hands limber but don't over do it or you'll dislocate your fingers.
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Day 9 does some good stretches on his Mechanics daily, I've used them for years before playing guitar. Honestly I was getting some feeling of carpel tunnel when i was around 15, I know it sounds weird but playing guitar removed any sense of it what so ever. Guitar physically changes your left hand, it builds muscle in it and makes it incredibly flexible. Even if you don't learn how to play, get a really crappy acoustic guitar and try and do basic hand drills for 30 minutes. You'll get massive amounts of lactic acid, but eventually you can actually flex the muscles in your hand and they're noticeable. I get no pain in my wrists, hands or arms. I haven't had any feeling what so ever like carpel tunnel in years.
Some people get carpel tunnel from playing guitar, and it's because they bend their wrist too much, if you have proper form it's one of the best hand exercises in the world.
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I'm not a doctor or a scientist but last time I checked you get lactic acid when you workout for too long... I'm talking like heavy squats here... not playing starcraft. I would be shocked if lactic acid was playing a key role in anybody's starcraft games... but I'm not a doctor.
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you get lactic acid from strenuous exercises, heart failure, sever infections, or shock. Its when you lower the flow of blood and oxygen throughout the body.
If your experiencing the symptoms at 120 apm I think you need more excercise in your daily life.
(besides the symptoms are vomiting, excessive sweating, or even a coma)
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On February 17 2011 13:04 Enervate wrote:
It might have to do with how you are holding your mouse, your arm position, and the fashion in which you move your mouse. I basically only make small movements with my hand because I use a high dpi setting on my mouse and I barely move the rest of my arm. I'm able to play around 200 apm fairly easily and without any fatigue. Also, try not to tense up, which I know can be hard because SC games can get tense at times. It's easier to move faster and more smoothly when you're relaxed.
As a musician and 200+ apm sc2 player I am sure it is this.
I have given lessons in both sc2 and Trumpet where issues like this tension and muscle giving out have occurred and it always boils down to a muscle you are clenching for no real reason.
Try making a fist sometime. Really squeeze your first pretty good. Now hold that for 4 minutes. I think you are doing something similar when you get a jolt of adrenaline in game. Does it feel similar just located in a different body part?
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when I run 5 miles I feel I'm going to get acid melted by those acids
I'm wondering, when an athelete is doing a marathon does he also release acids?
just practice more man! ^^
and that guy above me is very true too.
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Maybe you have carpal or RSI or something? I've had iccup sessions that lasted 8+ hours at 300+ apm and didn't feel a thing O_O.
(although recently my hand has started hurting when I go back to BW lolol..feelsbad)
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Yeah my apm is somewhere around 270 but I've never had any issues with lactic acid (or any kind of hand fatigue of any kind) o_o. Its not something you should have a problem with in sc2 D:.
EDIT: Yes, thats 270 apm. Pure spam lmfao.
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"I know that a "good" APM to play at as a pro is 200. However, here is the question."
not true. you can be great with 120 atm. 200 apm in sc2 is like 276 in broodwar, and even then not ALL pro korean players had that apm.
in sc2 just work on your accuracy and multitasking, and your apm should just naturally increase if you're improving. straining yourself too much by just mass spamming before your hands can adjust can really screw you up (i.e. tlo's double cts).
in regards to the lactic acid , the more you play, the faster it goes away. Also, at least when I played broodwar, I could feel it starting to build up after one day of not playing, since the mechanics were more demanding on my hands for that game in comparison to sc2. I've stopped playing sc2 for a few weeks at a time and come back to it without any problems.
if you've been playing for few weeks and you don't feel any improvement, maybe consult a physician? just in case.
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On February 17 2011 14:45 Neo.NEt wrote:
I'm not a doctor or a scientist but last time I checked you get lactic acid when you workout for too long... I'm talking like heavy squats here... not playing starcraft. I would be shocked if lactic acid was playing a key role in anybody's starcraft games... but I'm not a doctor.
There is a big difference there between lactic acid and muscle fatigue there. Lactic acid is more prone in the "middle distance" events, where ur bodies primary energy source is still using its anaerobic energy system predominately (no oxygen used). this usually occurs when u exercise as a moderate-high intensity from about 30secs to 3-5mins (depending on how well trained ur body is with dealing with the lactic acid)
i wouldn't think playing starcraft would do that, i would say its definitely some other issue, especially with the smaller muscle groups you use.
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i think you are putting too much into apm. look at EG.Axslav as the perfect example. he's a very, very strong protoss player with barely above 100 apm. if you can make your clicks and movements extremely solid, as well as having solid strategical thinking, you dont NEED 200 apm in sc2 to be competitive
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@imyzhang
I'm aware of that, but thanks for clarifying  . Perhaps I should say instead, 200 apm is where you pretty much do almost everything possible and things after that aren't nearly as "significant". Still vague but yes I do agree with you.
Try making a fist sometime. Really squeeze your first pretty good. Now hold that for 4 minutes. I think you are doing something similar when you get a jolt of adrenaline in game. Does it feel similar just located in a different body part?
Thanks I'll try that. So if it doesn't feel similar, then it means my posture or something is wrong? If it does feel that way then I have something bad? (cts or etc.)
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Human muscle cells make ATP by lactic acid fermentation when oxygen is scarce. This occurs during the early stages of strenuous exercise, when sugar catabolism for ATP production outpaces the muscle's supply of oxygen from the blood. Under these conditions, the cells switch from aerobic respiration to fermentation. The lactate that accumulates as a waste product may cause muscle fatigue and pain, but he lactate is gradually carried away by the blood to the liver. Lactate is converted back to pyruvate by liver cells.
Straight from my Bio book. I'm really not sure that starcraft is strenuous enough to cause lactic acid fermentation. So while you have muscle fatigue and pain, I believe it's as someone stated earlier with pressure, such as when playing guitar hero or laying down. Lactic Acid is from really short bursts
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Well its possible Id guess.
I mean, most of us on here are probably behind a computer for the better part of the day. I know I am behind a computer pretty much all the time except for a few hours, and when Im sleeping.
Im guessing thats the case for most ppl around here, that either have an office job behind a computer, or are students, that constantly type notes, or write notes, and so we wouldnt really get that.
Kinda like if you told a bunch of marathon runners you get lactic acid in your legs when running 5 miles, theyd say they dont get it. If you tell computer addicts about muscle strain from using a computer, we dont get that
If thats not the case, and you are often behind a computer, then contact a doctor.
If you are indeed not all that often behind a computer, then it could very well be lactic acid, doing some tasks use different muscles, just because you can spam 200 apm all day doesnt mean you can use your hand to chop potatoes for 8 hours at a stretch without muscle strain for example, its different muscles being used. So even if you use your arm a lot, it might just be weak muscles for computer skills. In that case, it will go away eventually. You can accelerate it by just building up some arm, wrist, hand and finger muscles though simple excercises a coulple of times a day.
And as with exercising any muscle, dont forget to stretch.
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lol you cant spam up to 300 APM in the first 5 mins then claim that is your APM! it is suppose to be your average, so the number at the very end of the game .
People in BW would spam up to 600 and in the end their APM would only flux about 5 points. (instead of 130 without the intro spam, it would be 135)
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What i'm going to assume is that you hand positioning is putting pressure on your major blood vessel in your wrist. Coldness, numbness and a tingling sensation are signs of a lack of blood flow, ala pins and needles. Obviously the faster you moving your hand the more this is going to be emphasized. Which is probably why you have mistaken it for lactic acid.
Because really, if you're generating lactic acid from starcraft, you should probably look into your health.
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yeah lactic acid is when you dip into your anaerobic system, heavy breathing and sweating should also be occuring. the site of this of someone playing starcraft should be rather comical.
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in all likelyhood you're misreading tense muscles as lactic acid build up. lactic acid requires a huge amount of physical exertion, far more than any e-sports demands. I used to get tense right forearm when playing counter-strike, rest, stretch and an ice-pack solves that perfectly.
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On February 17 2011 15:37 Sv1 wrote:
yeah lactic acid is when you dip into your anaerobic system, heavy breathing and sweating should also be occuring. the site of this of someone playing starcraft should be rather comical.
technically no heavy breathing is due to this, "anaerobic" meaning no oxygen. heavy breathing comes in with the aerobic energy system. OR when you start to burn more fats then carbohydrates. fats need more oxygen to break down into energy.
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OP has very very poor understanding of the way lactic acid is formed, and how it affects you physiologicly. Take his post with a grain of salt.
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Ok guys, stop trying to define lactic acid when its obviously not lactic acid.
The only time I ever even get tired muscles, after doing the flash build over and over in 40 min BW TvPs. I check BW charts and I've managed 300 APM for long periods of time. The next morning I notice that my shoulders feel kinda weak, and my arms don't move as well. However I never experienced tired muscles before I was capable of doing this.
However its definitely not lactic acid, and at 120 APM its most likely not even muscle tiredness. Even if you never did exercise ever, you would not get this.
Most likely its Repetitive Strain Injury, in which case you should limit your Starcraft playing and do frequent stretches of your wrists and arm, until it gets better. You should also focus on keeping your muscles relaxed all the time, sometimes in a tense game you will unconsciously tighten all your muscles causing strain.
OR (and this has happened to me once)
The other very likely reason is the way you positions your arms on the table, and the way you sit, is stopping circulation of blood to your arms. And after every game you feel like you have to shake your arms like Flash does. This feels a lot like lactic acid, but really your blood isn't circulating properly.
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Because I don't have wrists, playing is actually physically taxing for me since it means I have to move my whole arm for every movement or key press I make so I know exactly what you are talking about when you say lactic acid build up. I've started exercising more and I've been focusing on my shoulder muscles (just like when I swam backstroke junior year) since they do most of the work.
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I thought this was going to be a workout thread.
No I doubt progamers get lactic acid build ups.
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I think your fingers might be too tense when you play. Otherwise it shouldn't be a problem, as it's normal for fingers to move fast. People's APM ceilings normally lie in their brains, not in their fingers. Think of guitar or piano players and how fast they move their fingers in awkward ways. I don't think they have problems with lactic acid.
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What you're referring to is the difference between anaerobic and aerobic exercise. In aerobic exercise, your exertion level is low enough that your body can clear waste (the lactic acid) out of the cells in your muscles essentially as fast as it builds up. In anaerobic exercise this is no longer the case, and leads to soreness and fatigue much more quickly. Think of the difference between a slow jog (aerobic) and a short but very fast and intense sprint (anaerobic). Lifting weights is another example of anaerobic exercise (at low reps anyway).
Since starcraft APM is almost by definition a repetitive and fast series of movements sustained over a fairly long amount of time (~15 mins for average game I think?) it fits under the general umbrella of aerobic, if Starcraft can even be thought of as exercise at all. What you describe sounds like it is caused by being too tense, not stretching properly, bad posture or playing position, or something similar. Just sit up straight, make sure your arm isn't tensed up while playing, get a rest for your wrist, and I think you'll be fine.
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It's a relaxation issue. I used to play piano and violin, and sometimes when practising I would get that burning sensation in my forearms when repetitively practising intense passages.
There is a tendency when you're learning something to devote too much mental focus on controlling what you're doing. For instance, suppose you want to type a very fast sequence on the keyboard. If you are unskilled or unsure of yourself, there's more of a tendency to be aware of each keystroke and guide it on a more individual level. However, if you try to force yourself to speed up, many people will increase the force applied to their actions, and consequently, to control the action, the force necessary to decelerate must increase as well. In many sports there are many who "try hard" but are never really move fluidly. This is all part of the same effect.
Conversely, if you look at a "natural athlete" or really anyone who is considered extremely skilled or talented at something with a physical/technical component, you notice that they move fluidly, make things look easy and are relaxed. This is a sign of economized movement, where your body has learned what is the bare mininum number of muscle fibres to fire and in what order to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible.
So, if your arms are burning up as you play, you have to learn to relax more and yourself to play from that relaxed state. I understand it can be scary sometimes; you have to learn to let yourself go and do things automatically without thinking too much, and at first you'll feel like your not in as good control over your body. However, in the long run it is beneficial to have this level of relaxation in your actions, as it benefits both speed and accuracy.
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I've actually had to stop play recently due to RSI. I played FPS primarily for the last 10 years, and now that I play sc2, I find that I hold my mouse quit differently than I do when I play FPS. I tend to use my fingertips to hold the mouse, whereas with FPS I palm the mouse and use my whole hand. I also click a lot more frequently and use only a small surface area with only wrist movement.
Comparatively, when I play FPS games, I use a more generous surface area and use my arm as a pivot function, which makes for large, broad strokes and only side to side wrist movement. My left hand has always been very active on the keys, so I have not felt any effects in that area.
When I broke it down and looked at it, I narrowed it down to two things:
I grip my mouse differently, and the mouse I use is not designed for my grip. I use a Razer DeathAdder, which suits my FPS grip flawlessly. It is a little bit heavier for a mouse (also perfect for me in FPS), so it makes for great accuracy when using my arm to track my mouse. However, when I play SC2, my wrist and fingertips become the gripping and pivoting points (both much weaker than the arm and palm setup I normally use). It is just the natural feel for playing SC2 for me to grip the mouse this way. But using this heavier mouse with tendons that rarely got much use in all my years of playing is proving to be a roadblock for this setup. My mouse speed is just as snappy as it is in other games, and instead of transferring the energy to stop the mouse on a specific point into my entire arm, it is going into just one tendon in my wrist over and over again.
And that lead me to figure out another contributing factor, which was the way mouse movements naturally occur in sc2. For me, and probably most other players, dragging the mouse from top to bottom to create the unit selection box is one of, if not THE most, used functions in the game (or just dragging the mouse down to click on the minimap, or scroll the screen in general). After really thinking about it, this is a fairly strenuous movement to be doing over and over again, like doing crunches on your abdominal muscles. Compounded with also having the frequently click both mouse 1 and 2, the same tendon gets way over-worked, and eventually loses strength.
This is where injury starts to occur. I get to the point where my mouse accuracy diminishes, because the same few muscles in my wrists and fingers that click buttons and provide mouse accuracy are being used as my main support for mouse tracking. I'll start to get frustrated and really concentrate to obtain my high expectations of perfect mouse accuracy, and it starts to cause my muscles to strain.
Don't know if this is what happens to you, but I'm sure someone reading this thread might be experiencing a similar thing. The pain ranges from the center of my forearm to the center of the palm of my hand, with most of the strain stemming from the middle finger (right click, imagine that).
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err thats weird. hahaha sorry, but i have to admit i almost loled when i started reading the OP. I dont think lactic acid should be an issue when playing SC. I am roughly at your APM levels, but more variable. My lowest current APM can hit low 90s and my highest can be around 125, but Ive never felt "sore" from playing a video game (except maybe my eyes).
im pretty sure the only people who should be worried about flushing out lactic acid are people who are doing strenuous exercise like lifting weights. There is no way that moving a mouse and clicking fast should match the feeling of running or lifting weights. Maybe you should try working out every once in a while. Im not saying that trying to be an asshole, but i think it might help out. When your body is used to moving much heavier weights regularly, im sure keeping up your APM wont be such a big problem
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On February 17 2011 13:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +eh, you probably just have very weak forearm (finger) muscles. Just keep on playing and you'll get over it.
Make sure you are keeping very relaxed arms and hands while playing, if you tense up you are fighting two opposing muscles groups against each other which will tire you out very fast. Perhaps playing Zerg contributes to this a lot, especially when I need to spam 50+ pairs of lings ASAP and I don't know how to do that while holding down the button (still don't get it!) @heishe I HAVE THE SOLUTION! That mental exhaustion can easily be fixed in almost every situation by simply eating fruit, ESPECIALLY a banana. Omg in 10 minutes you'll feel so good. Not joking, I try to emphasize this so much, but try it out sometime ^_^. @FinestHour Perhaps another part of the problem is me breathing less when I'm playing? I haven't kept track so i don't know if i breathe less. Show nested quote +Maybe it's just muscle fatigue. As weird as it sounds, your muscles just need to get used to the kind of movements you use to play SC. It's just like finger fatigue when you learn a musical instrument. Then, hopefully the main reason why this is happening is because I'm "reaching new heights" in my APM and speed? I remember back then when my APM was around 80 I would start feeling that numb/burning sensation when I pushed to my then-height of 100 ish.
Fruit dealer agrees with bananas ^^
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On February 17 2011 21:08 [Illusion] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 13:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:eh, you probably just have very weak forearm (finger) muscles. Just keep on playing and you'll get over it.
Make sure you are keeping very relaxed arms and hands while playing, if you tense up you are fighting two opposing muscles groups against each other which will tire you out very fast. Perhaps playing Zerg contributes to this a lot, especially when I need to spam 50+ pairs of lings ASAP and I don't know how to do that while holding down the button (still don't get it!) @heishe I HAVE THE SOLUTION! That mental exhaustion can easily be fixed in almost every situation by simply eating fruit, ESPECIALLY a banana. Omg in 10 minutes you'll feel so good. Not joking, I try to emphasize this so much, but try it out sometime ^_^. @FinestHour Perhaps another part of the problem is me breathing less when I'm playing? I haven't kept track so i don't know if i breathe less. Maybe it's just muscle fatigue. As weird as it sounds, your muscles just need to get used to the kind of movements you use to play SC. It's just like finger fatigue when you learn a musical instrument. Then, hopefully the main reason why this is happening is because I'm "reaching new heights" in my APM and speed? I remember back then when my APM was around 80 I would start feeling that numb/burning sensation when I pushed to my then-height of 100 ish. Fruit dealer agrees with bananas ^^
Give oov banana, oov macro, oov win.
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On February 17 2011 12:45 etheovermind wrote:
its about oxygen
This makes more sense, I think.
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The chance of you ever having noticeable lactic acid release from playing a computer game is near zero, and any amount you could possible release would be negligible.
On February 17 2011 14:55 evanthebouncy! wrote:
when I run 5 miles I feel I'm going to get acid melted by those acids
I'm wondering, when an athelete is doing a marathon does he also release acids?
just practice more man! ^^
and that guy above me is very true too. Yes they experience lactic acid, however they have specific training regiments called lactic threshold where they train there body to handle the acid buildup.
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Lactic Acid release only occurs when you are exercising with high intensity. It's a lack of muscle relaxation in the arm due to the fast movements made by the hand.
I've been playing flashflashrevolution, a game that requires very fast keypresses. Up to 600-800 keypresses per minute, although such bursts last for 30 seconds usually, then go down to 300+.
Being a righthander, my left hand is always the "weak" side. When playing the intense songs I can start to feel a burn in my arm/wrist that makes it harder to move. It's actually a lack of sufficient muscle relaxation. Fast relaxation is just as important as fast contraction if you want to make fast repeated movements.
Play the game, feel the burning sensation. Then after the game, relax. Stretch your hands and make sure you do not overtax the arm. Fix your hotkeys, set them up so you don't have to make really weird finger movements.
And for crying out loud, if you're Zerg, please do this: Go to your configuration screen in windows and go to the keyboard settings. Put both the repeat delay and the repeat speed to shortest/fastest. If you hold the z for 1 second, you get this: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Ironically 25 z's, enough to make the 50 zerglings you were talking about.
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EPT
