Hey Tlers, for people who do stack probes on closer mineral patches to your town hall, I would love to hear some theory on certain styles of doing it or your theory on not doing it at all. For example some people right off of the beginning start stacking probes on closer patches but others saturate all of their mineral patches, 1 harvester per before beginning.
I would also be interested in knowing if anyone stacks probes after the initial stacking of the closer mineral patches to the point where the first 16 are stacked without bouncing around at all (Assuming no 6 pool is happening or such). This is something I view as very cool and economical and only possible with a refined BO, very high apm and not really "active scouting" with your harvester in the beginning, like harassing or possible if you don't scout at all like Nada in that TvP MU in the most recent GSL on Shakuras or just OL scout not drone.
Please everyone who wants to keep this thread going and just share ideas, theories and really delve deep into this small aspect of the game that could give someone a nice little edge in a game, please bump this thread or whatever people do to keep it going alive, thank you!
My Problem:
So I have been having a consistent problem for a while. Since I started to manually stack harvesters on the closer mineral patches in the during the first couple minutes of the game every now and then, to the point where it has motivated me to make a post on TL, one of the 2 harvesters in sync will leave the mineral patch and go to a different patch and sometimes knocking other harvesters off and which results in me losing minerals.
Hopefully that explanation isn't botched to the point that people don't know what I am talking about. Does anyone know what exactly is causing this, usually I manually will stack a harvester to a mineral patch and then look elsewhere so most of the time I don't catch a harvester leaving the dual sync on one patch to go to another. I have done games against Very Easy AI where i just focus on watching how my harvesters act and determing the nuances of their AI and really have not discovered any concrete truth although I do have speculations of why the harvesters leave synced mineral patches. If anyone knows the cause of harvesters leaving synced mineral patches, whether it be completely random, "The harvesters weren't actually synced", or some AI nuance, I would greatly appreciate the input!
Thanks for reading my ramble in advance and please lets try to make this an educational post about as far as I am aware, a not really talked about much "tactic" of the game.
I've seen many Top pros doing this. Also Idra recently actually talked a bit about this on JP and Friends when he was teaching JP.
Anyway back on the topic. I have the exact same issue. I've only started to manually stack very recently but even now and then I get synced harvesters unsyncing. I'm not exactly sure why or if I'm just meant to resync them. Maybe it depends on the position of gathering?
Maybe it is, while writing this post and checking on it, I have been doing custom games against AI and have noticed that in one that a harvester left a synced pair to mine a completely empty mineral patch that was extremely close to the synced mineral patch, like right next to it hugging it. That could be a coincidence or a possible explanation.
I don't think it's worth it to be honest, even if you stack them, the chance of them unstacking is high and you'd be wasting more mining time stacking them back rather than letting them mine evenly.
I usually set my waypoint to the patch who's assigned probe returns at the same time the new probe pops. This is usually pretty close timing to get two drones per patch, but you might have to manually tell a probe to stay on a patch instead of the ai taking it to another patch farther away and possibly on the other side of the mineral field.
When doing the initial spread i just take a probe from a far patch to use as a scout to reduce the amount of apm needed
I call them retard drones. This is what a normal situation for me looks like:
Me: Okay listen up drone. We need as much as minerals as possible right now, so im assigning you to a closer mineral patch. There currently is another drone mining it, but if we time it just right we can have both of you mining the same patch without anyone waiting for the other. It's more efficient to mine the close mineral patch than the further ones, which I know you like doing, but we need the minerals. Drone: HUUURR OKAY ILL GO THERE DUURRR *arives at the mineral patch* HUURRR ACTUALLY EVEN THOUGH YOU TOLD ME TO MINE HERE, I THINK I'D RATHER NOT DERPDERP
every single time this happens even when I tell both drones to mine the patch they still leave. You need to micro your drones really well or just give up because they are fucking retarded. I usually choose the ladder.
On January 30 2011 06:41 Lucid90 wrote: I call them retard drones. This is what a normal situation for me looks like:
Me: Okay listen up drone. We need as much as minerals as possible right now, so im assigning you to a closer mineral patch. There currently is another drone mining it, but if we time it just right we can have both of you mining the same patch without anyone waiting for the other. It's more efficient to mine the close mineral patch than the further ones, which I know you like doing, but we need the minerals. Drone: HUUURR OKAY ILL GO THERE DUURRR *arives at the mineral patch* HUURRR ACTUALLY EVEN THOUGH YOU TOLD ME TO MINE HERE, I THINK I'D RATHER NOT DERPDERP
every single time this happens even when I tell both drones to mine the patch they still leave. You need to micro your drones really well or just give up because they are fucking retarded. I usually choose the ladder.
harvesters are so dumb sometimes haha. like there are times where i will see a probe of mine like go to the back of a mineral patch and mine then go the whole way around to return it. makes no sense lol
it's worth it if you're trying to early gate/pool/rax, since the extra 10-20 minerals you get will allow you to keep constant(or near constant) worker production which translates exponentially as you get more. After that, however, the extra 20 minerals is just extra 20 minerals. It won't change the game and you'd have other stuff to focus on by then..
On January 30 2011 06:46 LyRa wrote: Yep, the AI will always make that worker go to a free mineral patch if there is one avaliable. The most I could stack was 2, but yeah.
I issue is when 2 are stacked and synced but after a few returns the one leaves for another patch.
Also people stating "It's not viable" or "it's viable". Please don't do so without actually posting testing and data to show either of these two statements are correct. Just saying something as if it's fact when it's just ones opinion is of no help.
EDIT: quick note. The stacking is more for the closer mineral patches early game. So workers have shorter mining distance.
Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the advantage of this is actually lower than the advantage of pooling exactly at 200 instead of at 210 or something like that.
I do split though, but that's more to get a feeling for the mouse when I start.
I am completely positive by the way that if you're zerg and if you spawn with your minerals above or below you the drone travel time due to larva location makes up more than manually stacking.
Half people didn't even read what you have written.
I have same problem, even if there is 1 drone at each patch you sometimes still cannot send 1 more to closer patch because it is automatically going to farthest patch.
Thanks for the input so far everyone! I do agree that the advantage is probably miniscule like some of these posts suggest, and maybe only the highest tier of players should do it but for me personally I do something that I just recently found it is harmful to my economy according to Artosis and probe stacking is relevant to it.
I hotkey a worker to a number to be my "builder probe" . I also hotkey 3 workers to another number so when my gas finishes I can just press spacebar and then the number and click on the gas and then go back to my scout who is gathering intel / harrasing. I make sure that these probes aren't one of the "close mineral patch stacked probes". So while the economic advantage might not be substantial, for my style of hotkeys in the early game, (which may be detrimental to my economy) probe stacking is essential so I don't pull probes off of my closer mineral patches, which is the goal of my hotkey setup. Hopefully it balances out any detrimental effect to my economy caused by having pre-selected probes that are possibly pulled off of far mineral patches rather than selected immediately after they return minerals to make infrastructure or mine gas.
you can always have 2 workers stay on 1 patch, it just requires precise timing so that the mineral patch is never already being mined when the other worker arrives to try to mine it. if it is, it'll go seek a new patch to mine if there is one available. that's smart design actually.
the method I use to set it up so that 2 workers will always rotate on 1 close patch and I never have to worry about it again is simply to send the 2nd worker at the patch so that there's only a SLIGHT delay (as in practically the smallest amount of time) between when one worker finishes mining the patch and the other comes in to start mining it. The timing has to be perfect otherwise it won't work: you can't have a worker mining IMMEDIATELY (as in 0 downtime of mining) after, nor can the delay between mining be too long either. What I do is try to get it as close to being precise as possible when I first double up on a patch, then adjust the worker that's coming in too early by hitting S and immediately clicking the patch again, to get the timing right. The time between when you hit S and when you tell it to go back to mining depends on how early the worker was going in to mine. Learning this takes practice, as well as doing all of it efficiently without missing a beat on building drones while doing so.
I'd really like to hear Tyler's thoughts on this, I've heard him criticize HuK on his stream for not microing his probes efficiently and I think a further expansion on that idea would be really enlightening.
I think its something with the ai. It appears as though they will go to a nearby patch if it is empty, even if they are perfectly synced and not waiting on each other. perhaps this is a reason some people let all patches get at least 1 worker first before trying to stack. i don't even bother trying anymore as the workers disobedience has led me to have them figure it out themselves
This is off topic, but I loved one game watching huk micro his scouting probe to force the opponents second worker to go to a different mineral patch by constantly half mining off all of his opponents mineral patches, gosu x 1000 or what? I guess that's what you get for a 500 APM spam
They're unsyncing? I'm pretty sure it's just the new workers that are being built screw up the others. If not, then wow, we got to pay even more attention to make sure no unsyncing happens!
Thanks Zelniq for the info, but I still don't quite get why they unsync. Are you saying that, the "response" time of the workers is not immediate? And so you need to be very precise to make sure when they respond is when the patch is available to be mined?
Edit: @ confusedcrib
OMG That is so cool! great idea I should try that :D haha
There are a few mineral patches on a few maps I believe are too close and 2 workers will eventually unsync if the neighboring patches are clear, I think the closest patch on blistering sands is like this.
If all nearby patches are in use workers will wait at an in use patch as long as the worker there is halfway done mining.
There is definitely a benefit, for instance with protoss it's the difference between being able to do 9pylon 13gate scout 14 gas with constant probe production or having a bump where you don't have enough minerals to start the 15th probe on time and have to start your gas at 15 to have constant probe production.
Took me a while at first to learn the timing but now its kinda easy.. My best was 3 stacks in my first 8 probes.. I am pretty sure its at least a 50 mineral advantage.
On January 30 2011 07:18 Zelniq wrote: you can always have 2 workers stay on 1 patch, it just requires precise timing so that the mineral patch is never already being mined when the other worker arrives to try to mine it. if it is, it'll go seek a new patch to mine if there is one available. that's smart design actually.
the method I use to set it up so that 2 workers will always rotate on 1 close patch and I never have to worry about it again is simply to send the 2nd worker at the patch so that there's only a SLIGHT delay (as in practically the smallest amount of time) between when one worker finishes mining the patch and the other comes in to start mining it. The timing has to be perfect otherwise it won't work: you can't have a worker mining IMMEDIATELY (as in 0 downtime of mining) after, nor can the delay between mining be too long either. What I do is try to get it as close to being precise as possible when I first double up on a patch, then adjust the worker that's coming in too early by hitting S and immediately clicking the patch again, to get the timing right. The time between when you hit S and when you tell it to go back to mining depends on how early the worker was going in to mine. Learning this takes practice, as well as doing all of it efficiently without missing a beat on building drones while doing so.
Thanks for your input man, always appreciated, but I think I don't understand.
What is superior to hitting S than to simply spam-right-clicking the worker onto the patch until it syncs after the other guy leaves?
PS I still pull off FE-mass queens on steppes of war thanks to you
long term its bad anyway because some patches will be mined out faster. Also it requires lots of apm and if you missclick once all the apm that probably could have been used better is kinda wasted and you lose more than you probably achieve with doing it. (talking about stacking with the first 6 workers)
Only worth it if you are going for a ridicilous rush to get some stuff 2-3 seconds faster.
I've noticed mine usually desync if I start the mining on one slightly off the direct path between the mineral patch and the CC. So like the exaggerated case would be if your command center is to the right of the mineral field, and you begin harvesting with your second SCV on the top side of the minerals. The greater distance would desync the process. I've found even very slightly off the path will often mess it all up.
So now I make sure my scv is positioned directly in the line between the mineral patch and the CC.
On January 30 2011 07:18 Zelniq wrote: you can always have 2 workers stay on 1 patch, it just requires precise timing so that the mineral patch is never already being mined when the other worker arrives to try to mine it. if it is, it'll go seek a new patch to mine if there is one available. that's smart design actually.
the method I use to set it up so that 2 workers will always rotate on 1 close patch and I never have to worry about it again is simply to send the 2nd worker at the patch so that there's only a SLIGHT delay (as in practically the smallest amount of time) between when one worker finishes mining the patch and the other comes in to start mining it. The timing has to be perfect otherwise it won't work: you can't have a worker mining IMMEDIATELY (as in 0 downtime of mining) after, nor can the delay between mining be too long either. What I do is try to get it as close to being precise as possible when I first double up on a patch, then adjust the worker that's coming in too early by hitting S and immediately clicking the patch again, to get the timing right. The time between when you hit S and when you tell it to go back to mining depends on how early the worker was going in to mine. Learning this takes practice, as well as doing all of it efficiently without missing a beat on building drones while doing so.
Thanks for your input man, always appreciated, but I think I don't understand.
What is superior to hitting S than to simply spam-right-clicking the worker onto the patch until it syncs after the other guy leaves?
PS I still pull off FE-mass queens on steppes of war thanks to you
if you spam right click then it'll start mining too fast after the other worker finishes mining, and then the next time it comes around or so will try to find another patch.
On January 30 2011 06:38 J.E.G. wrote: I usually set my waypoint to the patch who's assigned probe returns at the same time the new probe pops. This is usually pretty close timing to get two drones per patch, but you might have to manually tell a probe to stay on a patch instead of the ai taking it to another patch farther away and possibly on the other side of the mineral field.
When doing the initial spread i just take a probe from a far patch to use as a scout to reduce the amount of apm needed
The things I would do to be able to have probes mining my mineral line at the start of the game and be able to get drones per patch.
But in all seriousness, this has been something I've been doing since launch but if they unsync after i sync'ed them then I just let them be so I don't waste any more mining time.
On January 30 2011 06:41 Lucid90 wrote: I call them retard drones. This is what a normal situation for me looks like:
Me: Okay listen up drone. We need as much as minerals as possible right now, so im assigning you to a closer mineral patch. There currently is another drone mining it, but if we time it just right we can have both of you mining the same patch without anyone waiting for the other. It's more efficient to mine the close mineral patch than the further ones, which I know you like doing, but we need the minerals. Drone: HUUURR OKAY ILL GO THERE DUURRR *arives at the mineral patch* HUURRR ACTUALLY EVEN THOUGH YOU TOLD ME TO MINE HERE, I THINK I'D RATHER NOT DERPDERP
every single time this happens even when I tell both drones to mine the patch they still leave. You need to micro your drones really well or just give up because they are fucking retarded. I usually choose the ladder.
I actually researched this a fair amount. The reason that they will split up sometimes is because mining time actually varies slightly for each trip. So, if you have one worker mining right after another, and the former worker gets a 'lucky' short mining trip, you will have a collision. When you have very few miners, a collision of two workers will result in the arriving one seeking a new patch, even if it would only have to wait a split second. Sadly, one collision and gains from stacking are erased and then some.
As far as why mining time varies, that is hard to say. My guess is that it is due to rounding based on small differences in the location where they mine. Note that though it looks like the workers move back and forth on the same path, there could actually be ~pixel length variations in their movement. To be fair though, I haven't tested this hypothesis =).
I actually like doing this since I saw Jinro doing it this GSL, but I have no idea if there is actually any real advantage for doing it, the only real case where I can see it fit is with Terran, where if I can have those mineral a little earlier before depot, 12 VCE wont wait a sec.
I know this thread is almost a year old but I didnt really open a new one. But still I think this is a topic not many are paying attention to. At the beginning of a game still many progamers just vary their rally point but wont really _stack_ their worker on the nearer stacks. i dont understand how still so many spam select/deselect and wont use their apm to assist the worker AI (rather correct/improve it).
why it is more efficient is explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176290#8 in that topic they also assess that it is really essential not just to spam rightclick with ANY worker on a nearer stack. you should rather try to minimize "down times" (while you are spamming rightclick your harvester isnt working so resulting in a mineral loss).
i have to admit i am a real SaSe fanboy :D i really enjoy his stream and when you watch him you can see that he is VERY good with his probes. he even corrects phases of the probes harvesting cycle. for example if 2 probes are almost at the same time at the same patch, he will send the one in front to bypass the nearer patch to the one next to it so the later probe starts mining directly on the nearer patch and not wandering around. for some ppl this all may seem stupid but if you can do it, why not? rather spam 300 apm with select commands? :/
so i just randomly took one game and cut out the opening from sases stream. as i said he does this every game.
i searched a bit but didnt find any better and more recent thread. sorry if this was unnecessary.
8 patch fields 8 workers.....after this the microed workers are still on the near patchfield. If the max workers (7-8) ar not built and patches are empty, then the AI saturat them on the patchfields...
But If you have more than 8 ore more workers on the field (i.e. 15 Workers, but only 6 on the patchfiled) ---the 6 mining workers can be microed on patchfields like you want...
This isn´t 100%, but try itself...and sorry for bad english
Just practice it, keeping an eye always on the workers, and stacking them at the right time. Sometime your probe might not stack, so you can just let it go mine the empty mineral patch, it's not much of a problem.
Anyway, the key is practice, I don't have any specific trick to do it, I just started doing it and after many games I already do it quite perfectly. I usually stack workers and control them until all there's 2 workers on each mineral patch, and in pvp even 3 workers on the distant ones.
On a note, you shouldn't really worry about worker stacking until master league.
It's just easier to get good at stacking, then worry about waiting for all the minerals to be occupied before beginning stacking on close patches. Once you get decent at spam clicking a probe to a patch at the right time, it wont bounce around. When a prove is coming back from gathering, and about to mine a patch, click on it, and spam right-click the mineral and it will stay there, if you have to be sure.
The reason why I find it easy is because there's nothing else to be doing in the game at that point.
On March 30 2012 20:23 Luminex wrote: 8 patch fields 8 workers.....after this the microed workers are still on the near patchfield. If the max workers (7-8) ar not built and patches are empty, then the AI saturat them on the patchfields...
But If you have more than 8 ore more workers on the field (i.e. 15 Workers, but only 6 on the patchfiled) ---the 6 mining workers can be microed on patchfields like you want...
This isn´t 100%, but try itself...and sorry for bad english
This depends on timing. You can have 8 workers working 4 patches without them bouncing, but it's hard to make it stable. You pretty much need the workers perfectly synced form the start where one reaches and start mining just as the previous one leaves. If there's a slight gap, this eventually leads to a worker moving.
On January 30 2011 06:52 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the advantage of this is actually lower than the advantage of pooling exactly at 200 instead of at 210 or something like that.
I do split though, but that's more to get a feeling for the mouse when I start.
I am completely positive by the way that if you're zerg and if you spawn with your minerals above or below you the drone travel time due to larva location makes up more than manually stacking.
It was shown in a previous thread that proper probe micro (like Sases) lets you do a 12 gate opening, but putting the gate down already on 11, or something like that. So it's pretty significant, but the advantage is short and I don't think it matters for most openings.
This usually happens when you dont line them up perfectly at first. You will spam the second worker on the patch while the other is gathering resources, and then it will look like you managed to do it right, and they will start alternating, but then on the second or third trip, suddenly one will move away and mess up other patches.
If you dont line them up at first, but just spam the second worker onto the close mineral patch from another nearby patch, that worker, even if he starts gathering correctly for 1-2 trips, will adjust his path with each trip (since he starts gathering at the side of the patch), until he uses the closest possible way from patch to hatchery/nexus/cc.
This is the sole reason why one of them catches up to the other and messes up your stack, because one of them is still adjusting his path a little with each trip, shortening his trip time a little. Sometimes this shortening of his trip will lead to one of them catching up to the other after 1-3 trips.
A consistent way of avoiding this, is to just line the second worker up with the first (pathwise) and then stack them up, or to stack them once again after 1-3 trips (before he starts moving to another patch), since by then the one that is still adjusting it´s path will be almost on the perfect path already, now you just need to delay his next trip by a slight amount, which you can do by stacking him again.
What you also need to avoid is spam clicking the second worker slowly. If you click too slowly, you give the worker enough time between clicks to move to the nearest other patch (even if just a little), which means that he will start to adjust his path again with each trip, possibly resulting in another catching up to the other worker in 1-3 trips.
Once they are perfectly lined up (none of the two workers is adjusting their path anymore, they are always using the perfect path) and synchronized, they will never split again, under no circumstances, since they cant catch up to each other. The only reason one catches up to the other, is because you make one of them start his mining from the side of the patch, thus increasing the length of the path he needs to walk---> then he adjusts that with each trip, shortening his path --> he possibly catches up to the other, wants to go to another patch ---> you click him onto the side of the patch again, which basically means that the stack will fail in another 1-3 trips AGAIN.
Keep this in mind and you will have a perfect stack, forever.
With 6 starting probes you put 4 on closest ones (via initial split), first probe that is made should be rallied to the closest patch that just started mining so by the time your nexus probe gets to that mineral patch the probe that was mining it will leave the patch and new one will start mining. As soon you do that, get one probe from initial 6 and do same with it, then another nexus making probe should be done, once you get that one get the last probe from the first 6 to mine same way.
I hope this made any sense, it did for me
IMPORTANT NOTE: when you want to stack workers make sure that you spam right click on minerals from the side where your nexus is and dont try to send worker from side of mineral patches because that will make your workers mess up mining - because it takes longer from side of mineral patch to give the minerals back to nexus than from being closest to nexus (obviously )
EPT
