|
On November 26 2010 02:52 spearofsolomon wrote:
You've decided to play a competitive game in which the only possible outcome is to win or lose. From that perspective, it seems redundant to describe any strategy or tactic as "all in" at any point after that, as we have already established that we are "all in".
So you're implying those that "incorrectly" use the term "all in" play some sort of special version of SC where you can leave at any time, or be half in half out, dip your foot in the water first no mummy it's too cold wtfbbq.
You're definition of "all in" is incorrectly broad. Of course once you join a game, yea you're gonna win or lose. The term relates to "specific" build orders that do not give you the chance to recover economically from if they fail.
|
I don't think any problem lies with the terms "Cheese" and "All-in" themselves, but more so with people either:
A: Not knowing what the words really mean
and/or
B: Improperly using the words
Our OP provides a brilliant example of both cases A and B, as I'm sure most of you would agree. Another problem is people throwing these words around in anger when they lose, à la "I didn't scout properly and lost, what cheese!"
Now is there a solution?
The only one I can think of is the rigorous re-education of the community. If someone is throwing the terms around wildly and erroneously, let them know about it haha, and correct them. This way we could keep the spread of misinformation to a minimum and avoid threads like this in the future.
(P.S. It'd be awesome if someone reputable from the community would ever take it upon themselves to compile a glossary of commonly used terms that the community can agree on as well, for new players to reference :p)
|
On November 26 2010 08:40 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I don't think any problem lies with the terms "Cheese" and "All-in" themselves, but more so with people either:
A: Not knowing what the words really mean
and/or
B: Improperly using the words
Our OP provides a brilliant example of both cases A and B, as I'm sure most of you would agree. Another problem is people throwing these words around in anger when they lose, à la "I didn't scout properly and lost, what cheese!"
Now is there a solution?
The only one I can think of is the rigorous re-education of the community. If someone is throwing the terms around wildly and erroneously, let them know about it haha, and correct them. This way we could keep the spread of misinformation to a minimum and avoid threads like this in the future.
(P.S. It'd be awesome if someone reputable from the community would ever take it upon themselves to compile a glossary of commonly used terms that the community can agree on as well, for new players to reference :p)
Honestly I think that the solution is to stop using the words entirely.
"OMG Actionjesus 6-pooled hahaha wow" is just as expressive as "OMG Actionjesus cheesed hahaha wow", except you don't have people calling things which aren't cheese cheese and using the word in stupid ways. What does the word 'cheese' really contribute? Nothing, except for a bunch of stupid comments in every other thread. Every one knows what 6-pool or proxy tech does; calling it cheese is like calling a 'marine build' when someone makes a barracks, and then people start throwing around 'marine build' as an insult.
|
On November 26 2010 08:44 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 08:40 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I don't think any problem lies with the terms "Cheese" and "All-in" themselves, but more so with people either:
A: Not knowing what the words really mean
and/or
B: Improperly using the words
Our OP provides a brilliant example of both cases A and B, as I'm sure most of you would agree. Another problem is people throwing these words around in anger when they lose, à la "I didn't scout properly and lost, what cheese!"
Now is there a solution?
The only one I can think of is the rigorous re-education of the community. If someone is throwing the terms around wildly and erroneously, let them know about it haha, and correct them. This way we could keep the spread of misinformation to a minimum and avoid threads like this in the future.
(P.S. It'd be awesome if someone reputable from the community would ever take it upon themselves to compile a glossary of commonly used terms that the community can agree on as well, for new players to reference :p) Honestly I think that the solution is to stop using the words entirely. "OMG Actionjesus 6-pooled hahaha wow" is just as expressive as "OMG Actionjesus cheesed hahaha wow", except you don't have people calling things which aren't cheese cheese and using the word in stupid ways. What does the word 'cheese' really contribute? Nothing, except for a bunch of stupid comments in every other thread. Every one knows what 6-pool or proxy tech does; calling it cheese is like calling a 'marine build' when someone makes a barracks, and then people start throwing around 'marine build' as an insult.
I still think they are very effective words when they are used correctly. The beauty of them is that they express something that could take a while to explain otherwise. Not all cheeses or all-ins are as obvious as a double proxy rax/gate or a 6-pool for example. That's just how adjectives work.
I would rather people are able to describe an attack as an all-in rather than having to go through the process of saying "And if this attack doesn't do major damage to player B, player A is going to be put into a terrible position and will most likely lose the game!", or instead of just calling a strat cheese someone must say "If this gets scouted Player A is going to have an easy time defending it so long as he knows the proper response and Player B will have just lost the game pretty much, what a gamble!". Each time it takes about 10 times as long to explain it than to just use the proper adjective.
And while that might not seem so bad on a forum, imagine how it is for people like casters. Would it be better for them to have an easily accessible word with a clear meaning to use, or have to explain what's happening every time something like this happens and not be able to talk about what else is happening, or worse yet, just leave it up to the viewer to figure out for themselves?
|
I see cheese in E-sports the same as I see "cheese" in any other sport. Think of a bunt in baseball, or starting with a low fuel load in a race so you can get an early advantage, or kicking short in rugby to try to get possesion back, the list goes on. Basically a tactic is a tactic, it shouldn't matter whether it's unorthodox, or if you don't scout it then you lose, because if you can do it, then it's a legitimite tactic.
|
all-in and cheese are fine as descriptions
the only harm comes in the negative connotations attached to them
|
Great post. I too feel that we should blur the line between defining all-in or "standard", like the koreans.
|
I think all in means a strategy that will leave u completely helpless if not done successfully. ive played plenty of games where I push, they hold, they push, I hold, then I win. pressing the find match button didnt make those games all in, they just made them happen at alll
|
IdrA stated is was abusive against players... so he recommends his teamate to do it in the qualifiers to help him get into the round of 64.. what is wrong with that...
|
On November 26 2010 02:52 spearofsolomon wrote:
The reason I started thinking about this was because of Idra's description of Tyler's tactics in their showmatch a couple weeks ago. On the SotG Idra described it as a "two-base all in" and as "abuse" where Tyler made two probes for every patch and then stopped probe production and just made attacking units from there. I think it was 5-gate but I'm not sure. Later he recommended it to incontrol for the gsl qualifier so I guess he either didn't mean those words derogatorily or else he came around in his view of it, but either way I thought that if "all in" can be used to describe two-base play, then it's pretty useless as a term and I wish that people would stop using it and be more precise with their language.
Well, it is all-in. If that push fails, the game is over - you can't recover from it, or afford to retreat and transition in 90% of cases.
Don't see your point here.
|
All these terms are here for the community to better follow along with what people say. Instead of saying 'a tactic which is much easier to execute than it is to defend.' we say cheese. Whatever people take in the meaning as, there is a general consensus of what the broad meaning of words like cheese, all-ins, counters, hard-counters are.
In situations where you need to nitpick, yes generalizing things as 'cheese' or 'all-in' strategies could hurt the discussion. But when we're just discussing a game or comparing strategies and we use such terms, most people understand what we're talking about.
|
I think that the terms "cheese" and "all in" are accurate terms. What I agree with is that people too often use "cheese" and "all in" to mean "strategies that I am not competent enough to beat."
Granted, this is not always the case, but it usually is.
|
topics like this have been madde sooooooo many times. all of which ended up with stupid people saying stupid stuff like "but thats how we like to use the word so too bad!" turns into some kinda argument and the mods start posting pics of cheeses and locks the thread.
it all comes down to people being stupid. there are stupid people, its inevitable.
|
On November 26 2010 02:58 Aberu wrote:
The reason why it is all in is because there is no viable follow up if he doesn't do crippling damage. Since he stopped probe production, expanding will be too difficult to do.
REAL cheese is all-in. REAL cheese is 2 gate proxy, 6 pool, mass cannon rush. Something that if you don't do enough damage, and if they crush it, you have completely lost. If you lose all but a few of your scvs to a 6 pool you lose. If you lose only a couple and defend it, you win. If you don't win after defending cheese, then you did something wrong in your followup after the defense. 1-1-1 banshee isn't cheese. Mass void ray isn't cheese. People use the word wrong.
The reason why Idra has a lack of respect for two base all-ins (which is what Tyler did, just being honest), is because a year from now that will have easily been figured out by almost all players, and almost completely non-viable. Idra's goal is to find a way to play that is the future. A very heavy macro-based play. Even then, cheese and all-in's did exist even till today in BW so they do have their place. Their purpose is to play against a player you know will do a certain build. Everyone knows Idra always goes for the most economic build, so having a build that will punish that, is essential to winning against Idra. And that is what Tyler did. I have a lot of respect for that kind of "play it as a set" mentality. But then you look at players like Flash... And you start to see the depth of insight of Idra. He sees the future of this game as looking more like BW. Remember Boxer was successful when cute things did really really well. Then he wasn't as successful for a pretty long period of time. Even Nada was pretty much the most successful progamer of all time, and he was heavy macro.
Stop stating your own reasons as if its a fact. The reason (most sensible one to believe) why idra has a lack of respect for two base all-ins( or any other all-ins for that matter) is because it doesn't take that much skill as standard play.
|
On November 26 2010 02:56 bonifaceviii wrote:
Words are words, and "all-in" and "cheese" (if used correctly) describe certain strategies that have certain shared characteristics.
The reason people don't like the words is because they don't like the characteristics. The problem happens when the person finds something else they don't like but tries to describe it using a word that doesn't apply. When that happens, all you need to do is correct them by saying "no, a 4 gate is not cheese. It may be something you dislike along with cheese, but they are different."
I agree with your post except for the part about 4gate not being cheese, its arguable whether it is or is not, and it does fall under liquipedia's definition pretty strongly assuming probes are cut for the push. (which they often are)
Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent.
Players use cheese to force a more unbalanced game. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal. Thus, the cheesing player is given a chance to come back from an otherwise lost game or the possibility to outwit a stronger opponent. A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack.
A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage.
|
All-in is a perfectly okay term. All-in's are simply strategies that have no alternatives. There are not transitions, no flexibility. They are a one and done strat that either wins the game in one battle or loses it in one battle. All-in strats put all your chips on a single gamble, hence the term "all-in".
Cheese is a term that is used perhaps too loosely, and it's important to note that the two terms are not mutually exclusive.
Is there a " like" button in the forums =)
I stand by the purpose of the original post/this thread, which is to stop all the crying for supposedly "cheese" strategies, if they weren't supposed to work Blizz would've done something about them, if they weren't supposed to exist, why would they even exist in the BW pro scene.
The match might be more fun to watch when it evolves into a massive macro epic match, but quick games have their place too, they're a lot more tense than the macro games, where it's usually small advantages/mistakes adding up to a win/loss.
|
The terms are fine, but the negative connotations and overuse of the words during a tournament in threads is unbearable.
They are definitely part of this game and can be effective and what I don`t like is when people automatically label a player bad if they see a player all-in or cheese their favorite player. I get the feeling most people say it when they think it is unstoppable or something they can`t deal with themselves.
|
You can cancel when you press the find match button.
Just throwing that ou tthere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
