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On November 22 2010 22:39 CrayonKing wrote:
Hm Yeah I guess I explained it kind of confusing but lets try it again. The main point im trying to explain is that I used my bonus pool while trying to learn the game.
When I first started sc2, I played 1v1 ladder, so I used all my bonus pool points learning.
In comparison - my friend did not play any 1v1’s but learned the game through team/customs.
Now, 5ish months down the road my friend is just starting his 1v1’s. But since he’s fairly decent he can take advantage of the bonus pool points where I cannot because I do not have anymore remaining.
So really what I am saying is when I first did 1v1 ladder I lost games and consequently lost bonus pool that I would not lose if I created a new account now and did ladder again, therefore my points would be higher.
You don't "lose" bonus pool points, unless you actually go down to 0 points.
If there was no bonus pool, your "rating" would still be lower than your friend's.
Let's pretend every win gives you 10 points and every loss takes away 10 points, for simplicity's sake.
To get to 1000 rating, it would take you 100 wins.
To get to 1000 rating, it would take your friend 100 wins.
The bonus pool is 12 points per day since game launch. Which was roughly 3 months ago, so about 1000 points.
To get all your bonus points, you have to earn 1000 rating, or 100 wins.
To get all his bonus points, your friend has to earn 1000 rating, or 100 wins.
The reason you are lower is because your non-inflated rating is lower than your friend's. Both of you have exactly the same amount of bonus points gained.
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the joke is, i am stuck at 1400 (with 500 bonus pool left) diamond while constantly playing 2200+ ppl with like 1000 games. only because im so high in team games, i have to suffer from that in 1v1? its hillarious
so the game treats me as i have 2200 real 1v1 rating, though i have 1400 and only because of the damn MMR, im just stuck
so the MMR will be kept when the ladder is reset: everyone who was good before will get punished once more? everyone good should be able to get to top diamond within 30 games anyway if EVERYTHING was reset.
so basically i would need to tank lets say my 3v3 rating, so i get more fair opponents?
and btw bonus pool is now 1600, not 1000
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I play like 2-3 hours a day and I still have bonus pool left over ~500 can't get rid of it :D I think the rate that you get bonus pool should be lowered, casual gamers have like 1.2k bonus pool, I doubt Blizzard intended that.
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I don't see how bonus points rewards the player who does not play as much as others. If everyone gets the 12 points daily then i guess it just adds out.
Also if you don't play for a while you loose points right? I just started playing again after a 4 month break due to during a semester abroad and i dropped like 90 places.
It feels like the whole Bnet2.0 system is just designed to make you feel good about yourself.
Artificially giving you extra points for no reason, always telling you that your opp is favored or the teams are even and never the reality that sometimes you are heavily favored and last, it feels like it,s very very hard to actually get demoted.
I don't know how to feel about that. The ladder should be an indication of skill, which would also create the incentive to improve. Right now it just feels a little blah. I am not even a serious gamer at all but i still think the competitive aspect is what makes it fun.
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They should just replace the bonus pool and ladder with the elo list
Playing alot does NOT give you an advantage in anny way on the elo list since its all based on percetage
Playing alot in the ladder does NOT have a benefit when it comes to points if there was no bonus pool
it is the bonus pool itself wich makes playing alot a benefit so everyone who makes the argument (and i nthink thats blizzard also..) that its done to give people who dont grind 24/7 a change on the ladder are fooling themself
If there was no bonus pool and the amount of points you win and loose is based on the opponents rating (wich is the same as his points in a system without pool) playing 500 games against a person with 123 rating and scoring 300-200 would leave you with exactly the same amount of points as playing 50 games against a person with 123 rating and scoring 30-20
It is a bit difficult to make a competition based on elo points however (though i would personally love just playing to improve my elo rating) and maybe thats why blizzard made the ladder with the bonus pool
Realy do think its due for a change though since the main objective of the ladder system was to encourage people playing and for me personally the ladder and the point system discourage me somewhat from playing since there is no way for me to track and see my actual progress
Also if you look at the ladders, below diamond then i have the impression that in most ladders its 10 people max that are actually competing and the rest of the ladder is that "inactive" that it will never be able to catch up due to the bonus system, the ladder gives you a false sense of improvement and beeing good i guess wich probably fills the needs of the majority of players
Still hope for an elo list
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On November 23 2010 00:03 Lucius2 wrote:
the joke is, i am stuck at 1400 (with 500 bonus pool left) diamond while constantly playing 2200+ ppl with like 1000 games. only because im so high in team games, i have to suffer from that in 1v1? its hillarious
so the game treats me as i have 2200 real 1v1 rating, though i have 1400 and only because of the damn MMR, im just stuck
so the MMR will be kept when the ladder is reset: everyone who was good before will get punished once more? everyone good should be able to get to top diamond within 30 games anyway if EVERYTHING was reset.
so basically i would need to tank lets my 2v2 rating, so i get more fair opponents?
and btw bonus pool is now 1600, not 1000
Hidden MMR from 1vs1 and 2vs2 isn't shared. But you go tank you 2vs2.
People spreading wrong facts amuses me. Also, you wont be playing 2200 people with 1400(+500) bonus. Unless the system thinks you will almost win all your matches which means your points are 1400+(500*2) = 2400 points. Therefore, you face equally skilled opponents.
But I deduct from your rage that you are not winning all games. Thus my Sherlock Holmes deduction skills tell me that you are lying. Which makes your entire post full of crap.
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On November 22 2010 23:07 Roban wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 22:39 CrayonKing wrote:
So really what I am saying is when I first did 1v1 ladder I lost games and consequently lost bonus pool that I would not lose if I created a new account now and did ladder again, therefore my points would be higher.
Thanks for explaining CrayonKing. But I still don't understand what you mean by saying you lost bonus pool. I don't think you can lose bonus pool points. You are awarded extra points from your bonus pool if you win, but you don't lose extra points from your bonus pool when you lose. Or is that not what you mean?
When I say lose bonus pool I don’t mean that literally. What I mean is for example.
I win 1 game gain 15 points + 15 bonus points = 30points.
Next game I lose, -15 points.
So you can think of it as losing bonus pool in a sense.
Now like I mentioned, I learned sc2 thorugh 1v1 ladder so me "losing bonus pool" would occur to me a lot during that period of time.
If I were to create a new account - yes, i would have the same amount of bonus pool but this time I would not be losing those bonus points like I did before.
So for example, just say I have a aquired a total of 1000 points and I use all my bonus pool and get to 1200 Diamond - throughout this time I was learning how to paly sc2, so I lsot a lot of games I would not lose now.
If I created a new account, due to how the bonus pool system works, it would not take me 1000 bonus pool points to get to 1200 diamond again. I have improved and so i would be able to get higher, maybe 1400.
Does it make a little sense now?
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Yes, now I understand.
But I don't agree :-)
If you were to make a new account and start laddering from 0 points, you will end up playing against better opponents earlier. The matching system will still try to get you to win 50% of your games. So even if you win the first 10 games, you will quickly start to lose again.
Even though you would be a better player in the beginning, I don't think you would get more points in the end.
I could be wrong though, just sharing my thoughts.
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On November 23 2010 00:08 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 00:03 Lucius2 wrote:
the joke is, i am stuck at 1400 (with 500 bonus pool left) diamond while constantly playing 2200+ ppl with like 1000 games. only because im so high in team games, i have to suffer from that in 1v1? its hillarious
so the game treats me as i have 2200 real 1v1 rating, though i have 1400 and only because of the damn MMR, im just stuck
so the MMR will be kept when the ladder is reset: everyone who was good before will get punished once more? everyone good should be able to get to top diamond within 30 games anyway if EVERYTHING was reset.
so basically i would need to tank lets my 2v2 rating, so i get more fair opponents?
and btw bonus pool is now 1600, not 1000 Hidden MMR from 1vs1 and 2vs2 isn't shared. But you go tank you 2vs2. People spreading wrong facts amuses me. Also, you wont be playing 2200 people with 1400(+500) bonus. Unless the system thinks you will almost win all your matches which means your points are 1400+(500*2) = 2400 points. Therefore, you face equally skilled opponents. But I deduct from your rage that you are not winning all games. Thus my Sherlock Holmes deduction skills tell me that you are lying. Which makes your entire post full of crap.
so u need some proof u idiot?
yes i lost a lot of games recently, mainly because i had a long 1v1 break and im pretty busy right now, how does that matter?
here is my lates match history:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/270733/1/Lucius/matches
just some examples from the match history:
lost temple (-12): the guy had 2157 points and NO team games
xel naga(-10): 1988 and NO team games
metalopolis (+18= 2* +9): 1891 with A LOT of team games
blistering (-14) : 2039 and some team games
when u face an equally strong opponent with around same MMR u get around -12 or +24, so ye sherlock holmes, im awaiting your answer.
u can check the formular here:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MMR
also its often not a part of points, but just the shear amount of games played. most of these guys i listed have 1000+ 1v1 games.
User was warned for this post
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@Crayonking
The feeling about lost points is not because you lose "bonus pool points". It is because you played against non diamond players. Take this example.
After retail you buy your copy:
1) You are as good as Select and plays against top 10 players only.
You win 50% of your games against the Top 10 players and you have a depleted bonus pool of 1000 and it is always an even match. This means you gain 1000 points from winning + 1000 points from bonus -500 points from losing. This means you have 1500 points.
2) You are a gold player and you play against equally skilled gold players.
You win 50% of your games against gold players and you have a depleted bonus pool of 1000 and it is always an even match. This means you gain 1000 points from winning + 1000 points from bonus -500 points from losing. This means you have 1500 points IN GOLD.
Now why does it seem like you have less points in reality.
Because you promoted!!
Now all these wins against gold players don't count as equally matched wins. It are you are favored wins. Which means you only get 4 points for them. You new amount of points are 400 points from winning + 1000 points bonus pool - 500 points from losing. This means you have only 900 points in DIAMOND.
Now if you wouldn't have been a "bad" player in the start you would have had harder opponents which results in more points.
The system is fair.
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On November 22 2010 23:57 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +In general, I understand the concept and they actually do their job (motivate someone to play more) fairly well. But the abstinence of constant benchmarks really kills the system for me. The benchmark is your position on the ladder. I don't understand your way of thinking. You prefer a system that awards players after lucky streaks of 10 wins in a row. Then stopping with playing and feeling like a boss? No you don't, you prefer playing constantly and gaining points. If you are an active you will stay the same rank as before, you will gain rank if you improve faster than others and lose rank if other improve faster than you. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
The ladder position is a very poor benchmark. There are hundreds of Diamond-Divisions and going to a third party site (SC2ranks) is not my favourite option (and actually an embarrassement for the company hosting the ladder imo).
In an ELO-System, if I go from 1600 to 1800 over a longer period of time, I know I have improved. I don't know this in the bonus points system. I don't want to count the amount of hours that have passed this week to determine how many points I have gained. If I am 8. or 12. in my Division tells me absolutely nothing about my strength as a player and about my progress.
As I said before, ELO-systems also have Inflation (WoW-Arena as an example), But still, 1700points in may is pretty much the same as 1700 points in june, while 1700points in january is of course different from 1700 points in September. But this is way easier to take into account than 84 additional points every week.
And if someone hits a lucky streak and feels like a boss for being 22nd in his divison and therefore stops playing... absolutely noone cares. He only hurts himself if he stops playing for this very reason.
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On November 23 2010 00:30 Lucius2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 00:08 Koshi wrote:On November 23 2010 00:03 Lucius2 wrote:
the joke is, i am stuck at 1400 (with 500 bonus pool left) diamond while constantly playing 2200+ ppl with like 1000 games. only because im so high in team games, i have to suffer from that in 1v1? its hillarious
so the game treats me as i have 2200 real 1v1 rating, though i have 1400 and only because of the damn MMR, im just stuck
so the MMR will be kept when the ladder is reset: everyone who was good before will get punished once more? everyone good should be able to get to top diamond within 30 games anyway if EVERYTHING was reset.
so basically i would need to tank lets my 2v2 rating, so i get more fair opponents?
and btw bonus pool is now 1600, not 1000 Hidden MMR from 1vs1 and 2vs2 isn't shared. But you go tank you 2vs2. People spreading wrong facts amuses me. Also, you wont be playing 2200 people with 1400(+500) bonus. Unless the system thinks you will almost win all your matches which means your points are 1400+(500*2) = 2400 points. Therefore, you face equally skilled opponents. But I deduct from your rage that you are not winning all games. Thus my Sherlock Holmes deduction skills tell me that you are lying. Which makes your entire post full of crap. so u need some proof u idiot? yes i lost a lot of games recently, mainly because i had a long 1v1 break and im pretty busy right now, how does that matter? here is my lates match history: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/270733/1/Lucius/matchesjust some examples from the match history: lost temple (-12): the guy had 2157 points and NO team games xel naga(-10): 1988 and NO team games metalopolis (+18= 2* +9): 1891 with A LOT of team games blistering (-14) : 2039 and some team games when u face an equally strong opponent with around same MMR u get around -14 or +28, so ye sherlock holmes, im awaiting your answer also its often not a part of points, but just the shear amount of games played. most of these guys i listed have 1000+ 1v1 games.
I am sorry to have offended you in my first post. But if you read all these posts in all these different threads it gets annoying. The system is fair. You might not like it. We could also discuss about what is the best: capitalism or communism.
First, team games are NOT overlapping. 1vs1and 2vs2 don't share anything. I have heard you might get easier into diamond after the 5 placement matches in 3vs3 when you are already diamond in 2vs2. Let me repeat. I have heard that. Rumors.
But it is certain 1vs1 and 2vs2 does not share the hidden MRR.
Secondly, you have to take your entire match history. Don't take 5 matches out of 20. But lets pretend these are your last 4.
lost temple (-12): the guy had 2157 (and lets say 0 bonus pool)
--> Your MMR is high, the system thinks that if you deplete your 541 bonus pool today you will be around 2157 points which means 1450 points + 541 bonus pool + 166 points over the game you will play. 166 points means that you will win around 56% of your games.
xel naga(-10): 1988 (lets say 100 bonus pool, thus a 2088 player if he wins 50%)
--> You lost the previous game, The system found a worse player for you. Same calculation 1450+541+ 97= 2088. Where 97 points mean that the system thinks that you will only 52% of your games. It clearly changes.
And so on...
I don't have enough time for this. I need to get some work done and I have 12 minutes left till 1700.
Do you see where I was coming from? You also said in your OP that you only played against people with +2200 points. After selecting 4 games yourself, there is no player with +2200 points.
That and the shared MMR with teamgames.
I am sorry but it annoys me.
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On November 23 2010 00:33 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 23:57 Koshi wrote:In general, I understand the concept and they actually do their job (motivate someone to play more) fairly well. But the abstinence of constant benchmarks really kills the system for me. The benchmark is your position on the ladder. I don't understand your way of thinking. You prefer a system that awards players after lucky streaks of 10 wins in a row. Then stopping with playing and feeling like a boss? No you don't, you prefer playing constantly and gaining points. If you are an active you will stay the same rank as before, you will gain rank if you improve faster than others and lose rank if other improve faster than you. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? The ladder position is a very poor benchmark. There are hundreds of Diamond-Divisions and going to a third party site (SC2ranks) is not my favourite option (and actually an embarrassement for the company hosting the ladder imo).
There lies your problem. I agree that Blizzard should be ashamed for not having this on their site or on the online profile of players.
But go to sc2ranks. There is a !graph! that shows you your world ranks since you started playing in gold and higher. It is a really good benchmark if you want to see if you improved or not.
Let me trow this example at you.
Fruitdealer plays on NA and dominates the rankings in oktober with his 14-hatch strategy. Other players find a counter to this play but only in november. Fruitdealer is so far away in a non-inflation system that he stays on top as long as he doesn't play. Simply because the game is balanced in november and the top players win 50% against each other. And if he plays 1 game every 3 days he is still going to be on top in a system with slow decay. Because he is fruitdealer and wins at least 45%
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geez after all this time you'd think people
would know that the system will match you up according
to you MMR primarily not bonus crap
or amazingly 2v2 ranking sheesh
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Im talking about within the same division...obviously 1500 diamond does not equal 1500 Platnium.
And you mention that you would play better opponents earlier. .
Yes I agree you would but if you played better opponents earlier that means your overall points are higher which means you did not use as many bonus points to get to where you are which means you still have more remianing bonus pool.... The only way your going to be playing better players earlier is if your overall points are higher...
I.E
Scenario 1.
You are at 2000 points Diamond with 0 bonus pool. - You play player A (also 2000 dimoand player)
Scenario 2.
You play that same player (Player A) but since this a new account and youve improved so you play that player sooner. But that has to mean your points are higher aswell. Even if it is a new account, theres still no way you will get matched with 2000 points diamond palyers if you yourself are not high aswell. The MAIN difference here is that yes you played this player soon but you still have an extra 500 bonus pool because it took you less time to get where you are. And because of this extra bonus pool even if you are at your plateau you will keep going up whereas the person in scenario 1 will stop or only slighly increase.
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I guess the only thing that really bothers me is that I can't play all that much, so I can't spend my bonus pool. Yeah, I see that I always play against 1700-1800 diamond players but I only have something like 900 points plus 1000 bonus pool. I know... I can do that math and get an estimate of where my points *should* be, but even that isn't accurate so it's just a guess. So really it's not a big deal, but it would be nice when somebody asks me how good I am, I could at least give them an accurate point total instead of saying "900 diamond...". It would just be nice to have our true ELO number available, so that we don't have to play X amount of games just so others can have an idea about our level of play. I know I am improving and I spend tons of time watching replays. I know I don't play nearly as many games as the opponents I play, but I sure feel like I still improve as fast as others who get to play games every day. Sure, points don't matter, but I would feel a lot better having a standard ELO number to show our skill instead of constantly having to do math to figure out an estimation of how many points I should have.
For instance, Magic: the Gathering has a normal ELO system. I could not go to some tournaments for a year or two and check my rating and still see that I'm XXXX, ranked X in my state and know that I'm not going to fall behind because of inactivity. I'll only fall behind from other players getting better than me. That is my skill rating and I know it and I can view it and know where I stand. I don't need to play games to constantly prove that I'm still as good as my rating. I can come back and play hard a few months and improve my rating again. I guess it's just encouraging to have a permanent number that shows where my skill level is at.
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Skipdog172,
You like that system. Blizzard chose a system where you have to play 2 games a day per every season with a win% of 50 to be competitive.
Also, I don't understand why you don't know how good you are. If people ask you how good you are tell them exactly what you wrote down. I am currently playing against 1600-1700 players in diamond.
PROBLEM SOLVED.
If they ask about your points you say: I have 900 points and a 500 bonus pool.
PROBLEM SOLVED
If they laugh because your points are low, even though you play against 1600 diamonds with only 900 points yourself.
You found yourself a troll. Let me know how they look like irl.
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On November 23 2010 03:21 Koshi wrote:
Skipdog172,
You like that system. Blizzard chose a system where you have to play 2 games a day per every season with a win% of 50 to be competitive.
Also, I don't understand why you don't know how good you are. If people ask you how good you are tell them exactly what you wrote down. I am currently playing against 1600-1700 players in diamond.
PROBLEM SOLVED.
If they ask about your points you say: I have 900 points and a 500 bonus pool.
PROBLEM SOLVED
If they laugh because your points are low, even though you play against 1600 diamonds with only 900 points yourself.
You found yourself a troll. Let me know how they look like irl.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is. I basically stated everything you did in my original post with my examples. I know I can "guesstimate" my rating. I know it doesn't matter. I know I can give some long-winded explanation as to what I think my rating SHOULD be, but that makes it sound like I care too much hahaha. The fact is though that adding points + bonus pool is not an accurate prediction of my MMR/ELO rating. Having to guess sucks. Yes, I know that Blizzard chose that system. My post was simply stating the reasons I don't prefer it. We should have a single number and it should be that simple without having to play X games per day. We shouldn't have to constantly re-evaluate how long the ladder season has gone on to see how skilled XXXX points is equal to. Also this recent stuff about divisions not being equal is another ridiculous things. We can't even just look at points now to see how skilled somebody is. We have to rely on silly division weighting calculations and Blizzard's top 200 lists. I just don't see how the current system offers any advantages over a simple, standard ELO/MMR rating system.
With ICCUP, we could look at somebody's grade and know how good they are. Now that we have this divisions weighted silliness and bonus points, we can't even state how many points we have and give an accurate representation of our skill. Having somebody post on the strategy forum and not be able to give an accurate representation of their skill is detrimental to the quality of the subforum itself. We can clearly see that the points system is making it much more difficult to evaluate somebody's skill by their point totals, where a simple MMR/ELO rating would let people confidently post their rating and others would be able to easily evaluate their skill, without doing ridiculous math(to see what XXXX points means at that point in time) or guessing games. We have posts from months ago with people saying "I'm an XXXX Diamond player, and..." and they surely get ignored at times because XXXX points 3 months ago is not the same as it is today.
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EPT
