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Sc2 Multiplayer Panel

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Happy Frog
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia490 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 01:29:36
October 24 2010 00:10 GMT
#1
The panel mostly focused on how the team go about balancing, the different tools they use, etc. No particularly new info but interesting nonetheless.

The gist of the presentation is they use alot of methods, no single method is sufficient in a vacuum.

Main methods are:

Community Feedback - community is passionate and analyse the game to death, discover things we never thought of, great resource but sometimes the loudest voice wins the debate, bandwagoning can affect discussion.

Pro tournies, replays - More concerned with gameplay rather than results at pro level because of skill level difference. Get feedback from top players, Kim talks about Maka highlighting void ray timings that was a reason for void change. Objectivity of pros difficult to judge sometimes because hard to tell if wins are due to skill difference or race imbalance - pros playing 1 race can make them biased.

One interesting spot talking about Pro strats trickling down to the rest of bnet, they saw a massive explosion of 5 rax reaper in TvZ after Morrow beat Idra at IEM.

A kind of turbo charged unit tester where they can also manuipulate unit pathing, target acquistion priority etc. Good tool but doesn't always take into account metagame, lends itself to theorycrafting and doesnt always reflect how match ups unfold

Their skill adjusted race match up statistics that was brought up in the developers corner post. They don't start to really panic about race imbalance until they see 60 - 40 numbers, 55 - 45 is a concern but within an acceptable range.

Here's their formula for their race match ups adjusted for skill:

[image loading]

Talk a little bit about how Korea lead the pack, and strats tend to trickle over to other servers so they pay special attention to top level balance in Korea. Bring up how P > T everywhere except Diamond Korea - possibly because top players are better at stim kiting.

This leads into how their biggest concern right now is PvT - specifically Terran being OP early (stim timing) and Protoss being OP late game (upgraded HT). Specifically say while they could technically get 50/50 win percentages with the match up like this but a MU where one race has to win in the first 12 minutes isn't good enough





I've paraphrased alot of the QA - don't take this as the be all and end all because some answers sound slightly different out of context, despite my best efforts to stay true to spririt of what was said.


Overall the presentation and Q&A made me pretty confident that these guys know what they're doing, and have their finger on the pulse of what's going on. Apologies if this is infested with typos, was trying to type and watch at the same time.

Blizzard's recap - general overview of panel, doesn't really touch Q&A - link

+ Show Spoiler +
Following the StarCraft II Art Panel, attendees were treated to an inside look at balancing StarCraft II’s multiplayer game with Game Director Dustin Browder, Senior Designer Josh Menke, and Associate Game Balance Designers David Kim and Matt Cooper.

The StarCraft II developers feel that it’s important to take a look at the various tools that are employed in defining balance. At first, each one of these tools looks like it could be the one answer you need -- but it becomes clear over time that no single tool provides the perfect solution to balance. Instead, it takes multiple tools and a complete understanding of what those tools tell the designers. So what tools do the developers use?

Player Feedback

Player feedback is perhaps the best tool available to the development team, as it allows for many voices to be heard across a variety of skill levels and experiences. This method also represents the largest pool of players. While data is a great tool, raw stats don’t qualify what players are experiencing from their perspectives. By reading the forums and getting feedback from the community team, the developers can gain insight into how the community is playing the game, what units they're using, and what difficulties or successes they're having.

There are drawbacks to utilizing player feedback exclusively. Sometimes the loudest of voices aren't portraying their experiences accurately, and the many can easily drown out a single voice that has different, yet important information the development team needs to make balancing decisions.

Pro Feedback

Pro players represent another important balancing tool to the development team. These players have a high skill level and understand the minute details of the game. They are also a great resource for critical feedback. On the downside, these players are generally very focused on one particular race and represent a very small subset of the community. When taking these players into account, it’s important to note that they may not know exactly why they lost a match -- whether it was due to their own error or an actual imbalance to the race, ability, or unit they are using.

Tournaments

Tournaments can be a great resource for observing games played at a very high skill level. When watching these matches, however, it’s important to look at the games individually and not just the end results. A talented player like Fruit Dealer may just be so good that he was going to win no matter what race he played. However, each game can give some insight into where the holes within the balance might lie. Players in these tournaments are generally very good at finding these holes and taking advantage of them, and it’s the development team’s job to keep an eye out and determine if something needs to be changed. The weakness in looking only at tournaments lies in knowing that there’s no way to be certain that matches are equal. All it really takes is a single poor performance to keep a top player from progressing.

Play the Games You Make

There’s no better way to see what players are experiencing firsthand than to play the game yourself. It’s a good way to get into the trenches, analyze gameplay, and find out what’s fun, what’s not fun, what tactics work and don’t work, and so on. However, while the development team consists of players of every skill level, the team is only so large -- and even with additional feedback from within the company, it can sometimes take time before the next new strategy gets to our team.

Spreadsheets

Spreadsheets are a great tool for looking at straight damage numbers, how fast or slow units are made, how often, what combinations of units are used, unit costs, and more. What spreadsheets don’t tell the developers is the how or why. While designers can take a look at the sizes of armies and make adjustments to building times (such as what was done during the beta with terrans), spreadsheets can’t really take into account pathing, unit size, random target acquisition, and other factors which only occur in a real game.

Make Combat

Make Combat is a great in-house simulation tool that allows the development team to run various scenarios with units to see how they stack up against each other, but running one simulation isn’t enough. Simulations need to be run multiple times before any sort of pattern begins to take shape -- if there’s even a pattern to be seen. Unlike a spreadsheet, Make Combat can take a look at unit pathing and can even allow micro to be employed if the developers wants to drill down a little bit more. What the simulation doesn’t do well is take into account all the myriad combinations of units or terrain. While it’s a handy tool, it’s only one of many, and results can’t always be taken at face value.

Battle.net Stats

Battle.net provides information on millions of games: who’s playing, what they’re playing, how people are progressing through the ladder, and more. It also allows development to look at the win/loss ratios between the races.

Matchmaking within the system, however, intentionally does not account for win/loss and looks purely at player skill -- and any existing race imbalance gets worked into that equation. Adjusted win percentage simultaneously considers both player skill and race balance. After each match, estimates of player skill and adjusted race win percentages are updated relative to the expected outcome of the match. In other words, if what happened was exactly what was expected, then nothing changes. If the system is surprised, then changes may be in order.

From there, the developers can see the win/loss ratio of the various races within each league. Generally these tend to be relatively even across the board, though there can be cause for concern if the percentage of win/loss between the races skews toward 60%/40%. When looking at these percentages, it’s important to note that they can shift very quickly -- in as short as 36 to 48 hours -- based on a change in the metagame.

Korea

While percentages between the ladders may look fairly balanced in other regions, the team also looks to Korea as a global leader in developing new strategies and setting metagame trends.

Community

It’s important to take all of these various tools into account when looking at balance. For example: When talking with the community, a common perception is that marauders are too powerful and their Stimpacks need to be nerfed. When running scenarios in Make Combat, it appears that marauder Stim isn’t overpowered and the terrans end up nearly evenly matched with zerg. The developers can see that marine Stimpacks are very powerful; however, it may be that marauders are acting as shields for the marines behind them. So is it that marauder health is too high? Or are marine Stimpacks are too powerful? We still don't know -- but we’re always looking for answers to questions like these.

Pros on PvT

When asking the pros about protoss vs. terran matchups, there are conflicting opinions and a split in whether these players think one or the other is the more powerful race. When the pros aren’t sure, then the development team needs to look deeper to see if perhaps there’s a more fundamental issue than game balance to deal with.In the developers’personal experiences playing the game, the terran tend to be strong at the start of a match, but the protoss are more powerful toward the end, which could point to a design issue. However, as you’ve realized by now, it’s impossible to make such a determination based on these tools alone.

Future Balance

The designers employ all of these tools and more on a daily basis to determine future balance changes. Currently, the focus is on making terran vs. protoss matchups more fun and analyzing Stim vs. Psi Storm balance. But today’s problems will inevitably be solved, and others will invariably pop up -- and the development team is dedicated to investigating, analyzing, and balancing for the long haul.


Q: Offline play?

A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.

Q: Mutalisks are hard countered by thor and marine, give them +3 to light

A: They're mobile, we're happy with the muta

Q: Custom keybinds?

A: Didn't want to delay release for it, it's in testing in internal builds, it's really complex to do from a UI standpoint, no timeline but it's pretty far along

Q: Premium maps, marketplace?

A: Heart of the Swarm at the earliest

Q: 10mb map limits?

A: We're chewing up storage really quickly but it's a really hot topic at Blizz, we're looking at it

Q: Wierd question about how balance team spot and fix cheese, rushes

A: Actually the easiest things to fix most of the time, more concerned about more complex dynamics. Want rushing to be viable

Q:Give me PvZ advice

A: Build Collossi

Q: More stats and data accessible from score screen?

A: We want to improve this stuff alot, maybe in a patch but probably HotS

Q: (Kind of incoherent, I think the main theme is) "Are Zerg designed to need to out macro T and P?

A: Yes, specifically not supposed to be strong at pushing at Tier 2, need to macro up and get to tier 3

Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)

A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight

Current balance: We feel it's pretty tight, the roach range has made people feel Z has gone from UP to OP, shows how tight balance is and how small changes can make big impacts, we're going to be cautious with changes and try to only make small tweaks

Q: (ExcaliburZ, author of Ladder analysis thread, esports forum mvp) - What besides hidden MMR influences player ranking and match making?

A: What you've already posted is pretty close to make pretty good guesses at what's going on. Bonus points don't have any role in MM, different leagues,skill of division comes in to play, your analysis is pretty close and accurate but not perfect. (I think I butchered this transcription a bit, didn't quite understand the answer)

Masters League, Grand Masters League - Currently comparing rankings across diamond league (ie different division rankings) can't necessarily trust those comparisons - in the new leagues you will be able to do this much more effectively

(I think what he's trying to say is that in ML / GML points will be much more accurate as an indication of relative rank, unlike currently where you see big discrepancies between Sc2Ranks and the Blizzard top 200)

Q: Was sitting behind you in Huk / Loner, when you watch games are you watching as the balance team or as fans?

A:Browder - I try to watch as a fan unless something is obviously really broken then I go to developer mode

Cooper: We're always looking for stuff thats potentially broken, but I love watching as a fan

Kim: Watch alot of pro games, Pros send me replays, I'm not surprised by tactics, I'm watching to confirm what I already suspect

Q: Are the speed at which Toss get Warp Gates where you want them to be? Toss can force a macro game very early

A: We want every race to feel insanely overpowered (but still balanced) WGs have been nerfed alot already, we think they're ok

Cooper: We think each race has broken mechanics (eg Zerg tech switching late game) but overall we think is in a good spot

Kim: We're seeing at Pro level less Warp gate rushes - people arn't used to it from SCBW, Pros are beginning to deal with it, we're hoping it trickles down into lower levels

Q: Do you think HSM is underused?

A: Kim: It was causing alot of trouble in the late game - Terrans turtle hard then mass ravens, trade mana for enemy resources so we had to nerf it. This wasnt the gameplay we were looking for

Not every spell has to be amazing in every situation, as long as abilities have applications in specific situations where they're powerful its ok (eg HSM vs Mutalisk)

Browder: It's definitely underused, but we had to nerf for it cos of what Kim said, not going to buff it in the immediate future. Going to wait and see what community does with it, community often surprises us by utitilising underused abilities.

Q: Life cycle of a patch - how much leeway is given to Pro's to develop new strats after patching

A: Plan to build a tourney server so that players / organisers can choose which patch they want to use - not ready yet, currently with GSL we tried to patch at times which would cause the least disruption eg right after prelims (wanted to get it out before prelims)

Makes the point that there's always major events on so the tourney server is a priority

Q: Roach / reaper changes killed off reaper vs Z, do you think this was too hasty and didnt give players enough time to come up with counter strats, Fruit Dealer showed us Z were all doing it wrong

A: Main focus is on competitive level, but we do care about team games and other levels, Reaper Ling was completely and utterly broken in 2v2. On the flip side for 1v1 Terran had too many openers that came out before they could be scouted so we wanted to limit T openers, 2v2 balance was a good excuse to nerf it.

Browder: Saw alot of reapers in the tourney today. Going to wait and see if Reapers become useless or not, we think it might still have some uses

Q: Thor vs Ultra - Thor is superior, cant attack air, beats ultra 1v1, do you think its imba

A: Thor is supposed to win, ultra can splash, Thor is best against clumped light air, main role for ultra is to kill large groups of small ground units, each unit is supposed to have a unique role, they're not supposed to match up and have equivalents across races, Zerg units are generally weaker due to macro mechanics in late game

Q: Boxer might have done better if he had spawned cross locations, do you take spawn locations in maps into account in balance stats.

A: Map balance is a big issue, don't think we take spawn location into account but it's a good point, we watch to see if race match ups become lopsided on specific maps, that's why we yanked DO / Kulas.

Location based stats might be drilling too deep but if we think there might be an issue we can access those stats








Durn
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada360 Posts
October 24 2010 00:18 GMT
#2
Very solid read. I'm always blown away by how much of a handle Blizz has on this game despite what we all seem to think. They seem like really legit guys with the community's best interest in mind.
I really appreciate them trying to balance competitive play with lower level play. One quote specifically about how he wants every race to feel insanely OP while maintaining balance. I think that is a cool goal for the game to be over time.

Props to Blizz for dealing with the community, as abrasive as they are.
"Even if I lose 100 games, that's 100 different arrows pointing me in the wrong direction." - Sean Day[9] Plott
Nagano
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1157 Posts
October 24 2010 00:23 GMT
#3
I still find it hard to believe that they hard nerfed the reaper and rax-first builds because of 2v2. Just seems so opposite to what they're supposed to do.

(I'm a zerg player)
“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.”
Anzat
Profile Joined February 2009
United States90 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 00:38:03
October 24 2010 00:25 GMT
#4
That was a very interesting panel and I wish the devs would give insights into their thinking like this a little more often. I wish someone had asked them whether it's a design decision to make zerg harder to play, or whether they're looking into it.

I couldn't believe that big bearded guy in the red snuggie who started crying when he couldn't ask a follow-up question... wtf?
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 00:52:21
October 24 2010 00:28 GMT
#5
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:


[image loading]

The formula is for the Bayesian estimator with the posterior probability of 3 normal distributions.

The idea is that there is some prior belief, probably that the win rate is normally distributed, and the formula updates that belief by taking into account the evidence, in this case probably the player's skills.

This is an application of Bayesian inference.
Nub4ever
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1981 Posts
October 24 2010 00:30 GMT
#6
IMO they should make masteres league a limit of 5 divisions and having quite some moving around and make it hard to hold and grand masters 1 division :O that would be awesome, also lol at

Q:Give me PvZ advice

A: Build Collossi
Dota 3hard5me
Happy Frog
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia490 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 00:35:40
October 24 2010 00:30 GMT
#7
Updated OP with a slightly more fleshed out account of the actual panel

IMO they should make masteres league a limit of 5 divisions and having quite some moving around and make it hard to hold and grand masters 1 division :O that would be awesome, also lol at

Q:Give me PvZ advice

A: Build Collossi


Yeah it was pretty funny, to be a bit more specific the guy basically said he got owned by mass hydra and wasn't good enough to utilise HT.

Kim responded by saying you needed splash and Coll were a good A move unit.

I can't remember exactly where it came up but the panel did note at one point that some units did much better at mid - lower levels because they were effective a move units, but this tended to disipate at higher levels when people had better unit control.
NuKedUFirst
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada3139 Posts
October 24 2010 00:31 GMT
#8
A: Plan to build a tourney server so that players / organisers can choose which patch they want to use - not ready yet, currently with GSL we tried to patch at times which would cause the least disruption eg right after prelims (wanted to get it out before prelims)


Hopefully they have a server like that available for the public. Kinda sad they didn't mention new map pool, LAN and crossserver play.
FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
Bosu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3247 Posts
October 24 2010 00:34 GMT
#9
On October 24 2010 09:23 Nagano wrote:
I still find it hard to believe that they hard nerfed the reaper and rax-first builds because of 2v2. Just seems so opposite to what they're supposed to do.

(I'm a zerg player)



They nerfed reaper and rax-first builds because they were too strong in 2v2 and terran has too many options in 1v1. This reduces options and nerfs an overpowered build by changing the same thing.
#1 Kwanro Fan
Happy Frog
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia490 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 00:48:56
October 24 2010 00:46 GMT
#10
On October 24 2010 09:18 Durn wrote:

Props to Blizz for dealing with the community, as abrasive as they are.


Do you mean specifically with these answers here? That's probably more a result of my paraphrasing, I thought they were really well humoured throughout. Dustin seems like a genuinely nice dude.

They were also really polite and patient dealing with dumb questions, and in some cases actually managed to still give interesting responses and insights.
ryanAnger
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States838 Posts
October 24 2010 01:07 GMT
#11
Well, contrary to popular belief, I think Blizzard actually does know what they're doing. They do things very deliberately, and in the end, it seems to work out.

Everyone can throw their fits for the first week or so after a patch, but over time, people begin to realize maybe these changes were decent, etc.
On my way...
s2pid_loser
Profile Joined March 2010
United States699 Posts
October 24 2010 01:10 GMT
#12
can someone post a video of this guy's question?

Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)

A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight
Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce
Ryzu
Profile Joined September 2010
United States369 Posts
October 24 2010 01:13 GMT
#13
On October 24 2010 09:23 Nagano wrote:
I still find it hard to believe that they hard nerfed the reaper and rax-first builds because of 2v2. Just seems so opposite to what they're supposed to do.

(I'm a zerg player)


They specifically said the nerfed the reaper because of 2v2 and 1v1. You can just pick part of their statement out and claim it to be the only relevant part.
Pfhor
Profile Joined September 2010
123 Posts
October 24 2010 01:15 GMT
#14
Some terrible, terrible questions (seriously buff mutas? lol) mixed with some legit ones. Overall I wish the people who attended had some more interesting things to say, but the Blizzard folks were (quite uncharacteristic of Blizzcon) right on top of their game.
Happy Frog
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia490 Posts
October 24 2010 01:26 GMT
#15
Blizzard's own recap of the panel, added to OP: source

+ Show Spoiler +
Following the StarCraft II Art Panel, attendees were treated to an inside look at balancing StarCraft II’s multiplayer game with Game Director Dustin Browder, Senior Designer Josh Menke, and Associate Game Balance Designers David Kim and Matt Cooper.

The StarCraft II developers feel that it’s important to take a look at the various tools that are employed in defining balance. At first, each one of these tools looks like it could be the one answer you need -- but it becomes clear over time that no single tool provides the perfect solution to balance. Instead, it takes multiple tools and a complete understanding of what those tools tell the designers. So what tools do the developers use?

Player Feedback

Player feedback is perhaps the best tool available to the development team, as it allows for many voices to be heard across a variety of skill levels and experiences. This method also represents the largest pool of players. While data is a great tool, raw stats don’t qualify what players are experiencing from their perspectives. By reading the forums and getting feedback from the community team, the developers can gain insight into how the community is playing the game, what units they're using, and what difficulties or successes they're having.

There are drawbacks to utilizing player feedback exclusively. Sometimes the loudest of voices aren't portraying their experiences accurately, and the many can easily drown out a single voice that has different, yet important information the development team needs to make balancing decisions.

Pro Feedback

Pro players represent another important balancing tool to the development team. These players have a high skill level and understand the minute details of the game. They are also a great resource for critical feedback. On the downside, these players are generally very focused on one particular race and represent a very small subset of the community. When taking these players into account, it’s important to note that they may not know exactly why they lost a match -- whether it was due to their own error or an actual imbalance to the race, ability, or unit they are using.

Tournaments

Tournaments can be a great resource for observing games played at a very high skill level. When watching these matches, however, it’s important to look at the games individually and not just the end results. A talented player like Fruit Dealer may just be so good that he was going to win no matter what race he played. However, each game can give some insight into where the holes within the balance might lie. Players in these tournaments are generally very good at finding these holes and taking advantage of them, and it’s the development team’s job to keep an eye out and determine if something needs to be changed. The weakness in looking only at tournaments lies in knowing that there’s no way to be certain that matches are equal. All it really takes is a single poor performance to keep a top player from progressing.

Play the Games You Make

There’s no better way to see what players are experiencing firsthand than to play the game yourself. It’s a good way to get into the trenches, analyze gameplay, and find out what’s fun, what’s not fun, what tactics work and don’t work, and so on. However, while the development team consists of players of every skill level, the team is only so large -- and even with additional feedback from within the company, it can sometimes take time before the next new strategy gets to our team.

Spreadsheets

Spreadsheets are a great tool for looking at straight damage numbers, how fast or slow units are made, how often, what combinations of units are used, unit costs, and more. What spreadsheets don’t tell the developers is the how or why. While designers can take a look at the sizes of armies and make adjustments to building times (such as what was done during the beta with terrans), spreadsheets can’t really take into account pathing, unit size, random target acquisition, and other factors which only occur in a real game.

Make Combat

Make Combat is a great in-house simulation tool that allows the development team to run various scenarios with units to see how they stack up against each other, but running one simulation isn’t enough. Simulations need to be run multiple times before any sort of pattern begins to take shape -- if there’s even a pattern to be seen. Unlike a spreadsheet, Make Combat can take a look at unit pathing and can even allow micro to be employed if the developers wants to drill down a little bit more. What the simulation doesn’t do well is take into account all the myriad combinations of units or terrain. While it’s a handy tool, it’s only one of many, and results can’t always be taken at face value.

Battle.net Stats

Battle.net provides information on millions of games: who’s playing, what they’re playing, how people are progressing through the ladder, and more. It also allows development to look at the win/loss ratios between the races.

Matchmaking within the system, however, intentionally does not account for win/loss and looks purely at player skill -- and any existing race imbalance gets worked into that equation. Adjusted win percentage simultaneously considers both player skill and race balance. After each match, estimates of player skill and adjusted race win percentages are updated relative to the expected outcome of the match. In other words, if what happened was exactly what was expected, then nothing changes. If the system is surprised, then changes may be in order.

From there, the developers can see the win/loss ratio of the various races within each league. Generally these tend to be relatively even across the board, though there can be cause for concern if the percentage of win/loss between the races skews toward 60%/40%. When looking at these percentages, it’s important to note that they can shift very quickly -- in as short as 36 to 48 hours -- based on a change in the metagame.

Korea

While percentages between the ladders may look fairly balanced in other regions, the team also looks to Korea as a global leader in developing new strategies and setting metagame trends.

Community

It’s important to take all of these various tools into account when looking at balance. For example: When talking with the community, a common perception is that marauders are too powerful and their Stimpacks need to be nerfed. When running scenarios in Make Combat, it appears that marauder Stim isn’t overpowered and the terrans end up nearly evenly matched with zerg. The developers can see that marine Stimpacks are very powerful; however, it may be that marauders are acting as shields for the marines behind them. So is it that marauder health is too high? Or are marine Stimpacks are too powerful? We still don't know -- but we’re always looking for answers to questions like these.

Pros on PvT

When asking the pros about protoss vs. terran matchups, there are conflicting opinions and a split in whether these players think one or the other is the more powerful race. When the pros aren’t sure, then the development team needs to look deeper to see if perhaps there’s a more fundamental issue than game balance to deal with.In the developers’personal experiences playing the game, the terran tend to be strong at the start of a match, but the protoss are more powerful toward the end, which could point to a design issue. However, as you’ve realized by now, it’s impossible to make such a determination based on these tools alone.

Future Balance

The designers employ all of these tools and more on a daily basis to determine future balance changes. Currently, the focus is on making terran vs. protoss matchups more fun and analyzing Stim vs. Psi Storm balance. But today’s problems will inevitably be solved, and others will invariably pop up -- and the development team is dedicated to investigating, analyzing, and balancing for the long haul.
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
October 24 2010 01:28 GMT
#16
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:

Here's their formula for their race match ups adjusted for skill:

[image loading]



"Oh shit, I forgot to carry the 1; did that patch go out yet?"




Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
kojinshugi
Profile Joined August 2010
Estonia2559 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 01:30:45
October 24 2010 01:30 GMT
#17
On October 24 2010 10:10 s2pid_loser wrote:
can someone post a video of this guy's question?

Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)

A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight


That was a really dumb question, especially considering WoW does balance patches maybe every 6 months, if that. I think the last one before 4.0 hit a few weeks ago was 3.3.3 last December.

EDIT: Brain fart, 3.3.3 was actually February-ish.
whatsgrackalackin420
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
October 24 2010 01:44 GMT
#18
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:

Here's their formula for their race match ups adjusted for skill:

[image loading]


And here's the formula they use to balance the game afterwards

[image loading]
Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
StarSense
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
206 Posts
October 24 2010 01:50 GMT
#19
I wish someone mentioned the carrier or mammaship ;_;
Hyren
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States817 Posts
October 24 2010 02:02 GMT
#20
I'm so happy that the panel came out and said the the TvP match-up needs reworking because early T>P, late P>T. Overall they were much more specific in their answers than I expected and didn't try to give people the run around. They seem to know what they are doing despite what people seem try to make them out to be.

Too bad some of the question askers were complete idiots, eh?
Power-tripping mod for Trump's stream
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
October 24 2010 10:45 GMT
#21
On October 24 2010 11:02 Hyren wrote:
I'm so happy that the panel came out and said the the TvP match-up needs reworking because early T>P, late P>T. Overall they were much more specific in their answers than I expected and didn't try to give people the run around. They seem to know what they are doing despite what people seem try to make them out to be.

Yep, they seem to know what they are doing.

On October 24 2010 11:02 Hyren wrote:
Too bad some of the question askers were complete idiots, eh?


Its sad, true, but these people are everywhere.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
f0rk
Profile Joined March 2010
England172 Posts
October 24 2010 12:47 GMT
#22
Q: Offline play?

A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.


Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded.
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
October 24 2010 12:58 GMT
#23
On October 24 2010 21:47 f0rk wrote:
Show nested quote +
Q: Offline play?

A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.


Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded.


It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
susySquark
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1692 Posts
October 24 2010 13:12 GMT
#24
On October 24 2010 21:58 LittleeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2010 21:47 f0rk wrote:
Q: Offline play?

A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.


Was this question referring to multiplayer LAN? That answer is completely retarded.


It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.

I doubt it, since you already can play campaign offline in guest mode.
carde
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden59 Posts
October 24 2010 13:20 GMT
#25
On October 24 2010 22:12 susySquark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2010 21:58 LittleeD wrote:
It was more concerning playing single player offline I think. Really had nothing to do about LAN.

I doubt it, since you already can play campaign offline in guest mode.


No, actually, the question was specifically that he wanted to work on the achievements in offline mode, and then connect online and "update my achievements"
Snowfield
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1289 Posts
October 24 2010 13:22 GMT
#26
Yeah, otherwise people might be forced to exploit ladders to get achieves, ohwait
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
October 24 2010 14:14 GMT
#27
Damn, I really severely underestimated just how awesome the balance team is, and just how much data they go through to bring us a good game
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
October 24 2010 17:35 GMT
#28
We talked to Dr. Menke after the panel and got some pretty critical information. We really want to get specifics and they're not completely willing to part with that information yet. I'll be making corrections to our posts either today or when I get home tomorrow night.
Moderator
Drium
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States888 Posts
October 24 2010 23:37 GMT
#29
It's amazing that these people seem so competent and yet we have maps with obvious positional imbalances like scrap station in the pool.
KwanROLLLLLLLED
Dekoth
Profile Joined March 2010
United States527 Posts
October 24 2010 23:59 GMT
#30
Q: Offline play?

A: Maybe, people might hack achieves.


Who cares? Achievements are frankly the single worst thing that has ever happened to gaming. They do nothing except encourage "Douchbag" gaming. Some people focus more on stupid achievements then actually becoming "Good" at the game. I would vote to remove the system entirely, but since that won't happen due to the "Xbox Generation" just make them meaningless.

Q: Mutalisks are hard countered by thor and marine, give them +3 to light

A: They're mobile, we're happy with the muta


As a Former P player and now Z, I have overall been fairly happy with muta balance. I would agree with Blizzard here.

Q: Custom keybinds?

A: Didn't want to delay release for it, it's in testing in internal builds, it's really complex to do from a UI standpoint, no timeline but it's pretty far along


Don't BS us blizz, we aren't stupid. This isn't complex by any stretch and they should have been in from the get go. I think I speak for most players here when I say "Hurry the hell up".

Q: Premium maps, marketplace?

A: Heart of the Swarm at the earliest


Good to hear this, encouraging player driven custom content is ALWAYS a good idea.

Q: 10mb map limits?

A: We're chewing up storage really quickly but it's a really hot topic at Blizz, we're looking at it


Storage is insanely cheap...Seriously. Just do something like sub 10mb is "Preferred". I run a server farm in several offices, adding more storage to the tune of multi TB is cheap and easy.

Q: Wierd question about how balance team spot and fix cheese, rushes

A: Actually the easiest things to fix most of the time, more concerned about more complex dynamics. Want rushing to be viable


Good call, giving players more options is always better then limiting them. On that note, how about we remove the stupid supply restriction on Terran? I was in favor of them being tuned down some but that was the wrong approach frankly.

Q: More stats and data accessible from score screen?

A: We want to improve this stuff alot, maybe in a patch but probably HotS


Good to hear.

Q: (Kind of incoherent, I think the main theme is) "Are Zerg designed to need to out macro T and P?

A: Yes, specifically not supposed to be strong at pushing at Tier 2, need to macro up and get to tier 3


Useless tidbit of info, but interesting to hear confirmed. I think that basically translates into Z needs to be aggressive early or defend hard till late game.

Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)

A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight


Person should of just been flogged on the spot for attempting to compare Sc2 to wow in terms of balancing, what a retarded question.

Q: (ExcaliburZ, author of Ladder analysis thread, esports forum mvp) - What besides hidden MMR influences player ranking and match making?


Q: Are the speed at which Toss get Warp Gates where you want them to be? Toss can force a macro game very early

A: We want every race to feel insanely overpowered (but still balanced) WGs have been nerfed alot already, we think they're ok


Agreed, though I still feel zealots are way too slow even as I am now on the receiving end of them now.

Q: Do you think HSM is underused?

A: Kim: It was causing alot of trouble in the late game - Terrans turtle hard then mass ravens, trade mana for enemy resources so we had to nerf it. This wasnt the gameplay we were looking for

Not every spell has to be amazing in every situation, as long as abilities have applications in specific situations where they're powerful its ok (eg HSM vs Mutalisk)

Browder: It's definitely underused, but we had to nerf for it cos of what Kim said, not going to buff it in the immediate future. Going to wait and see what community does with it, community often surprises us by utitilising underused abilities.


I would agree to this logic, I think HSM took the nerf bat a little too hard through beta but I like the measured approach on it.

Q: Roach / reaper changes killed off reaper vs Z, do you think this was too hasty and didnt give players enough time to come up with counter strats, Fruit Dealer showed us Z were all doing it wrong

A: Main focus is on competitive level, but we do care about team games and other levels, Reaper Ling was completely and utterly broken in 2v2. On the flip side for 1v1 Terran had too many openers that came out before they could be scouted so we wanted to limit T openers, 2v2 balance was a good excuse to nerf it.


Disagree entirely, what it showed was that Z needed more viable openers not T needed less.


Q: Boxer might have done better if he had spawned cross locations, do you take spawn locations in maps into account in balance stats.

A: Map balance is a big issue, don't think we take spawn location into account but it's a good point, we watch to see if race match ups become lopsided on specific maps, that's why we yanked DO / Kulas.

Location based stats might be drilling too deep but if we think there might be an issue we can access those stats




Glad to see they are aware that map balance is still very rough. I suspect we have another 6 months or so before we start seeing real balance competition maps. Left out some obviously, mostly ones I didn't feel were particularly important to me. As always this is my personal opinion on the matter, which may or may not amount to dick for anyone else.
theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
October 25 2010 00:07 GMT
#31
In what context did they present the Bayesian equation? Or was that a joke by the OP that went over my head? haha
kingcoyote
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States546 Posts
October 25 2010 00:13 GMT
#32
On October 25 2010 09:07 theqat wrote:
In what context did they present the Bayesian equation? Or was that a joke by the OP that went over my head? haha


They talked about the numbers and the math and said "and here is how we calculate it all" and put that on screen. Everyone laughed and then they moved on to something else.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
October 25 2010 00:45 GMT
#33
Omg they never thought about positional imbalances......
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
dave333
Profile Joined August 2010
United States915 Posts
October 25 2010 00:56 GMT
#34
Definitely a lot more on the ball than many people claim.
Mereel
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany895 Posts
October 25 2010 01:02 GMT
#35
this roach carrier guy....i cannot believe how totally stupid this kid was.

wtf roach too much hp...where did he get this stuff from
TPW Mapmaking Team
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 01:08:02
October 25 2010 01:05 GMT
#36
On October 25 2010 09:56 dave333 wrote:
Definitely a lot more on the ball than many people claim.



Agreed. I hope that in the future this community can start looking at multiple tools like they do. That might help with our outbreaks whenever something changes/doesnt change :p

Actually on that note can someone please make the "MAKE COMBAT" map? :D
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
OPSavioR
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1465 Posts
October 25 2010 01:05 GMT
#37
On October 24 2010 10:30 kojinshugi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2010 10:10 s2pid_loser wrote:
can someone post a video of this guy's question?

Q: Is Sc2 going to be like WoW with a balance patch that makes one race overpowered each tuesday, Roaches run right past my 10 carriers and kill my nexus because they have so much hp now (lol?)

A: We are going to slow down patching, especially compared to beta, the goal is to stabilise and slow down as much as possible but we're not going to be chicken in patching if we think there are issues, PvT is our biggest concern at the moment, re: WoW comparison, WoW has issues Sc2 doesn't even begin to have, Sc2 is specifically on a smaller scale (3 races, 12 - 14 units) to keep balance tight


That was a really dumb question, especially considering WoW does balance patches maybe every 6 months, if that. I think the last one before 4.0 hit a few weeks ago was 3.3.3 last December.

EDIT: Brain fart, 3.3.3 was actually February-ish.

pre tbc the shit was fucked up , just saying.
i dunno lol
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2584 Posts
October 25 2010 01:06 GMT
#38
+ Show Spoiler +
Q: Custom keybinds?

A: Didn't want to delay release for it, it's in testing in internal builds, it's really complex to do from a UI standpoint, no timeline but it's pretty far along

Don't BS us blizz, we aren't stupid. This isn't complex by any stretch and they should have been in from the get go. I think I speak for most players here when I say "Hurry the hell up".

actually keybinds isn't complicated, but tying it in with each individual's bnet account is. (based on my limited knowledge)
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
unindel
Profile Joined April 2010
United States206 Posts
October 25 2010 04:25 GMT
#39
Before the Multiplayer panel Dustin was signing stuff for a bunch of fans in the RTS stage area and a couple people were standing around him getting some pretty frank responses to questions about balance. Specifically they were focusing on the nerf to reapers and he really convinced me and the others there about the level of gravity with which they take balance changes. He addressed a couple points that people may or may not have inferred from the write-ups I've seen on the Multiplayer Panel that I'll list here (this is from memory so my apologies for anything that might be unclear).

1) They're really aware of how hard they nerfed the reaper. Dustin was really frank in saying that he was scared that it didn't have any use anymore. On the other hand, he was surprised with how much use it was still getting in the Blizzcon tournament games he was seeing. That led into a discussion of how they have to be really careful because of the number of times the metagame has changed without them doing anything, and players eventually becoming good enough or comfortable enough with their play to begin to incorporate another thing that might change the balance.

2) A lot of people say that they should only balance for 1v1, and they typically agree, but 2v2 is nearly as popular as 1v1 and the reaper/ling all-ins were accounting for so much of the top-game that it had completely wrecked the format at the top levels so they had to do something with as many people playing it as there are.

3) A lot of people were scared that they wouldn't buff zerg when Fruit dealer won (see IdrA's responses about how everyone will say zerg is fine), but blizz recognized that he was really at the top of his game and was playing much better than other players in those matches. Specifically, they don't care so much about the results of the series as much as what happens within the games themselves, as players in tournaments are at varying levels of skill and things like luck or being a bit off your game or whatever can have a big influence on performance. So they went ahead with those zerg buffs because they still felt like the game needed them.

I coulda sworn there was something else I wanted to say but now I can't remember =(. But yea, they really think these things through and are aware of the consequences.
kingcoyote
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States546 Posts
October 25 2010 05:08 GMT
#40
[B]
Q: Roach / reaper changes killed off reaper vs Z, do you think this was too hasty and didnt give players enough time to come up with counter strats, Fruit Dealer showed us Z were all doing it wrong

A: Main focus is on competitive level, but we do care about team games and other levels, Reaper Ling was completely and utterly broken in 2v2. On the flip side for 1v1 Terran had too many openers that came out before they could be scouted so we wanted to limit T openers, 2v2 balance was a good excuse to nerf it.

Browder: Saw alot of reapers in the tourney today. Going to wait and see if Reapers become useless or not, we think it might still have some uses


I was the one who asked this, and the more I think about it, the more I regret the phrasing of my question. I was trying to ask about their general patching philosophy and whether or not they take the community's adaptiveness and creativeness into account when timing the patch release. When asking my question, I emphasized the Reaper nerf a bit much and made it sound like I was specifically asking about that set of patches.

I hope the developers will always give the community time to figure out counters before tweaking numbers, since there are so many undiscovered strategies. The balance will shift on it's own as the players (specifically Korean Diamond league) figure out things that nobody considered.

Also, I don't play anything but 1v1, which is why I was completely unaware of the ling / reaper strategy being completely broken in 2v2. Crota and HD were in line ahead of me and mentioned it, but I was hoping that the panel would give more information out about the situation.
hiyo_bye
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States737 Posts
October 25 2010 06:46 GMT
#41
On October 24 2010 10:44 Wargizmo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:

Here's their formula for their race match ups adjusted for skill:

[image loading]


And here's the formula they use to balance the game afterwards

[image loading]


this was pretty clever.


I think people need to stop complaining about balance so much. blizzard cares for us!
Random
Adaptation
Profile Joined August 2004
Canada427 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 09:36:10
October 25 2010 09:35 GMT
#42
I would just like to state that i tried the reaper/ling strat in 2v2 and 4v4's, and it utterly dominates. We went undefeated for a while, and it was clear that something was wrong.

Do not come from the bw point of view where only 1v1 exist. 2v2+ is HUGE and that patch strongly helped.(to stop us from cheesing!)
So i did a 9 pool on an island map, so what?
quasit
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden49 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 10:59:30
October 25 2010 10:57 GMT
#43
On October 25 2010 18:35 Adaptation wrote:
I would just like to state that i tried the reaper/ling strat in 2v2 and 4v4's, and it utterly dominates. We went undefeated for a while, and it was clear that something was wrong.

Do not come from the bw point of view where only 1v1 exist. 2v2+ is HUGE and that patch strongly helped.(to stop us from cheesing!)


Should've nerfed zergling too then.
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
October 25 2010 13:02 GMT
#44
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:
Q: Boxer might have done better if he had spawned cross locations, do you take spawn locations in maps into account in balance stats.

A: Map balance is a big issue, don't think we take spawn location into account but it's a good point, we watch to see if race match ups become lopsided on specific maps, that's why we yanked DO / Kulas.

Location based stats might be drilling too deep but if we think there might be an issue we can access those stats

So they balance the game around the mainstream map pool and sort out the maps which deviate from the map pool too much. Not exactly what I'd like to see. Especially DO allowed for interesting macro strategies. Keep the map pool diversified, Blizzard!
Noxie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2227 Posts
October 25 2010 13:32 GMT
#45
Was def fun to read! We seem to have a ton of stuff in store for us. I wish they would have said more about maps as I think that is a bigger topic then what was addressed.
Eluadyl
Profile Joined May 2010
Turkey364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 14:56:05
October 25 2010 14:54 GMT
#46
Good read, thanks OP

However this also reminded me of knowing what you are doing and actually doing it right are two very different things. Go talk to any good scientist or engineer (aka professional nerd) and you'll see they all sound very competent and convincing. They'll still screw up pretty badly and often too

Good thing people starting to realize it's a hard job that these guys have.
Not enough energy
Nienordir
Profile Joined October 2010
98 Posts
October 25 2010 15:11 GMT
#47
On October 24 2010 09:10 Happy Frog wrote:
Q: (Kind of incoherent, I think the main theme is) "Are Zerg designed to need to out macro T and P?

A: Yes, specifically not supposed to be strong at pushing at Tier 2, need to macro up and get to tier 3

That seems like such a weird design choice. Z T1 feels so vulnerable&limited and then you tech to T2 just to get mobile AA/detection and a bit of map control, only to find out that the devs made T2 intentional 'weak' to force you into T3, where the fast switching of unit compositions suddenly becomes overpowered.

I don't know it just seems odd, that T&P have so many early options for harass, timing attacks and fast tech protected by wall-in, while denying all scouting (with proper play/building placement) except for overlord sacrifice. While Z has to survive, survive into roflstomp. That just isn't 'balance' all races should have a more or less equal chance throughout the game, it seems even more unfair towards Z, because larva management is already such a difficult mechanic.

Not to mention that 200/200 feels weak compared to T&P, basically you have to pile up larva/resources to get 2/3 waves with tech switching, because your army melts. A 200/200 T/P seems a lot more scary even if they don't get the time to macro up for more waves.


I don't mind macro focus and throwing a flood of bugs at the enemy (that feels very zergy), but when the devs say stuff like "yeah, well you have to survive until you reach T3 and then you're overpowered.." and think that's a decent answer..that's just wrong. A P can 4 Gate his way to the top, T has so many tools&fallbacks, while a Z is screwed until he figures out all the subtile mechanics of the game.

I don't want to complain about the state of the game, it's just that answer, which translates into "we don't care about early issues of zerg or that it requires more skill to get similar results. Our statistics are fine and you're intended to be weak until T3", which feels pretty rude.
e4e5nf3
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada599 Posts
October 25 2010 15:19 GMT
#48
That's impressive how much work the balance team is doing. Most other companies don't put so much resources on balancing. I kind regret all my "Blizz doesn't know what the fck they're doing" now, lol.

With that said, I have a feeling a couple months from now people will forget the praises of the balance team and the "Blizz doesn't know what the fck they're doing" posts will come back....
King takes Queen
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
October 26 2010 13:09 GMT
#49
They put a lot of effort into this, but that doesn't mean that they apply the proper policy.
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
November 06 2010 13:52 GMT
#50
I am glad they have someone who understands all the formulas used to estimate peoples skill. Cause thats all gibberish to me.

But I am really impressed by how much they actually understand about the game.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
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