Introduction hello everyone. a couple of days ago i started fooling around with zerg and now - as u may already know, ive decided to practicing zerg on a daily basis. if u missed out on the original thread u can check that out if u want. to cut that part short there seemed to be quite a bit of people who wanted to know how im doing with the swarm and thats where i got this idea to daily update you guys on my zerg
Tournaments/Events i just wanna make this clear to everyone. i will keep play terran in all the events and i will prepare for events by pracitcing with terran. the zerg project is just something on the side that i wont dedicate all my time to
Goal - become one of the top zerg gamers within a short period of time, if not - i want to become a very decent zerg user - learn the basic fundamentals (tnx for that word day9) of the race but i also want to dig deeper to learn things more in detail such as build orders and complex timings - get a better understanding of zergs current state in balance, gameplay and simple the fun-factor of playing zerg. also see which race is harder than the other - get an idea if which race i want to play in the future - understanding the tvz match ups from other perspectives. to learn the weaknesses and build orders of the zerg race will give me alot of ability to exploit them as a terran user
Idea its quite simple, i will post replay packs and maybe input some things ive learned every day or what players have helped me with i hope u guys can enjoy this as much as u gave me that impression the last few days
- i played zerg for some hours the first day i got sc2 to check out what the race was capable of. - i played zerg for fun about 5 games max before this project, which means im a total newb and these games u see of me as zerg from day1 is actually all from scratch, a very lame player who tries hard to improve. - most of the games u will see will be totally one-sided rapes, i do not hesitate and will not stay in a game after making a huge blunder. in my practice games i want to learn, not win. - my original terran stats were somewhere on diamond 2000pt 200W - 60L before starting with zerg. - i think zerg is underpowered on majority of the maps but also a bit overpowered on a few maps, in overall id guess zerg is the weakest race but im not very certain of it, thats another reason im doing this. - i find zerg to be a harder race in mechanics, apm and i also believe zerg takes more hours each day to practice to not get rusty. - what got me interested into changing race is because i want to challenge myself apm and mechanically wise and get back into my defensive-macro roots of sc1. - defensive-macro style is the way i used to play alot as terran in beta but i find it to be a worse playstyle than economy-harassment-pressure based playstyle which other terrans were using at this point. ever since phase 2 of beta ive been using economy-harassment-pressure style more succesfully than my older playstyle. - i am not choosing to do this exact thing with protoss because i find protoss to be just as lacking as terran from an e-sport point of view. - i wish blizzard worked on making zerg micro more indeph at same time making protoss and terran more apm and mechanics demanding in the macro.
How i will spend my Zerg-hours 1: Practicing on the ladder 2: Custom games 3: Analyzing my own replays but also some replays of top gamers 4: Watching zerg content on the web such as reading about zerg on liquipedia or watching some day9 daily on how to become a better gamer 5: And i wont forget to keep this thread updated on a daily basis
Downloading replay packs to download the replay packs enter the link. if necessary write in the code it asks and wait for the timer to go down to 0 and then it will give u a download
---------------------------------------------------------------------- September + Show Spoiler +
28th September Rating: Diamond 1700~ Replay pack: [url blocked] hard struggle went on about 20 losses i believe, finally at the end i won my first game as zerg. it was against Flayer (1.8k diamond)
29th September Rating: Diamond 1571 Replay pack: [url blocked] ive been having a hard time to not trying to creep tumor my hatcheries all the time. the mechanics of the queen is gonna be quite a problem in the start but i think i will get a hang of it in time and learn it well by routine.
many zergs and players have been giving me a huge support on my experimenting with the zerg race so far. high level zergs are happy that im testing out their race and many of them dont mind giving me a push. madfrog gave me some great advises in zvz, the basics of early game and how the matchup evolves to midgame
30th September Rating: Diamond 1537 Replay pack: http://www.duckload.com/download/898936/day3.rar took my time posting this :p and im off to get some bashing done on the ladder (for the most part on myself). played some games, decemvre showed me a nice opening on steppes on zvt my queen mechanics has improved alot lately, im still struggling to survive terran early game because im always eager to make drones instead of units^^ not much time to play today, ideally i want to play more than this. gotta play viking cup monthly finals! :> i feel like my zvz has improved alot during these first days. pvz is going quite well but tvz im still trying to establish when its ok to drone and when its ok to make units in early game. i believe i will be stuck in zvt early game for at least another few days before i become decent at it
1st October Rating: Diamond 1455 Replay pack: http://www.duckload.com/download/902555/day3.rar realizing my mouse speed is too high for zvz control, will lower it down tomorrow. also started to using hp bars always on since it helps me with transfusion in zvz but also larva inject mechanics. getting better at creep spreading, started to make an additional queen only for that purpose against toss users im learning alot about zvp late game and how lacking in upgrades ive been against them for air and melee attacks
2nd October Rating: Diamond 1507 Replay pack: http://www.mediafire.com/?by1fh340lb1n2en yep, your seeing right, i just went up 50 pts talked to darkforce and he told me about the reasoning behind cannon rushing and decemvre were also there to tell me some nice pointers of how to stop it. darkforce talked abit about zvp midgame play how backstabbing a toss can sometimes be more effective than attacking it directly. if u sit on 3base and taking 4th/5th while toss push out he said u can backstab him with mass muta ling and he is forced to retreat, else its a basetrade. if toss backs then u will have time to build a greater army because your 3base (the mutas can fly away ofcourse) or even get drones to ur new bases. if toss attacks u then its a basetrade that zerg often wins he says. sounds kind of like a desperate style to me but then again he knows lots and lots more than me, i will start try this in some future games and sees how things turn out. so far ive been ok with just hydra roach corrupter fighting into late game. sry about the "technical errors" about the rep packs, still searching for a stable uploading site :p
3rd October Rating: Diamond 1494 Replay pack: http://www.mediafire.com/?5ezb9kv5mrmwixm ok i dont die to the initial 2 hellions from the reactor anymore, so thats good news. i stop it with my queen on my natural, a spine crawler and about 6 speedlings up my ramp ready to surprise the hellions of the decide to get greedy. once get gets more hellions i get some roaches out or simply just more zerglings, either one is fine which i like alot. been loving the neutral parasite to counter thor so far, i dont know why zergs thing its useless, i think they were just spoiled with it holding forever. 12 seconds is more than enough to finish a tvz battle imo. 5rax reaper is really simple to stop just playing like dimaga, mass zerglings and low gas income. im starting to understand zvz a bit more now and managed to win some high diamond zerg gamers, my baneling micro is far from perfect still^^
6th October Rating: Diamond 1390 Replay pack: none gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time sry for no replay pack. will start updating this thread once im back on track with z there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
16th October Rating: irrelevant seeing the patch notes today made me pretty happy about tvt. alot of luck invloving in this mu were just around the bunker rushes and stuff that was really strong. overall pretty happy with the patch notes. im very excited to start play zerg now, not a long time left now^^ i think tvz is gonna favor zerg on some maps now, and maps like scrap that already favored-ish z it will be very difficult to win i think. imo the biggest things that made t>z is because of all early game stuff but blizzard just eliminated about half of the stuff a t can do early on plus roaches will be much stronger and better at stopping harass. and by having a stronger early game where a zerg can play more economical and still survive is gonna make his mid and late game that much stronger. the m250 cannon buff might compensate alot for the later games now which i think is great, definitely ownage vs ultras since their high armor removes so much dmg from thors normal attacks :p
27th October Rating: 2078 Replay pack (part 1): http://www.mediafire.com/?6s6t6ym1n7j83n6 Replay pack (part 2): http://www.mediafire.com/?j8gj8bbgfjul2tj back to the zergland going very well since last time i was here. been winning many games vs high level players and my mechanics is starting to become quite good. i think u will enjoy some of these replays here since im not getting totally raped anymore xd there are a few tournament replays in there aswell, cba to filter them out tbh :p
it's weird, that a lot of terrans i've run into recently have been playing as zerg in customs (including me). I think a lot of us t players are trying to understand what the fuss about terran imba is all about.
Glad to see that great players like morrow don't just only care about winning, and keeping their ladder rankings/ratings high.
I'm glad you've sucked it up and found some self respect, MorroW (kidding :D)
I'm in a predicament myself where I want to switch to Zerg from Protoss, but I don't want to lose my ladder record/play 20 matches before I get placed down against players that I can actually beat them with Zerg. Does anyone have a clue how long the ladder season will be? If it's only a couple of months out I think I'll switch when the ladder resets.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how well you do. Best of luck, I hope you get the satisfaction and the info you are looking for.
EDIT: Honestly, when I opened this thread, I was expecting a rant on how it is physically impossible to hatch a 2 ton ultralisk from the same egg as 2 50kg zerglings Imagine my surprise!
Can't wait to see how this turns out, Zerg needs good players like you playing games to iron out some solid build times and see what works in higher level play.
Also, "Larva to ultralisk?" has to be the best title ever for this. I've always wondered how that works. Such a small egg....
On September 30 2010 22:31 Klive5ive wrote: Certainly a brave decision. You don't really have a lot to gain by doing this. Good luck anyway, it will be interesting to see how well you do.
he has a ton to gain from this.
even if he switches back to terran, the much deeper understanding of the timings zerg has and what can happen when will benefit his TvZ greatly, as well as the experience playing with the units and their capabilities.
If not asking too much, can u do a brief description when u r going to save replays for example ZvZ tried lings got raped. Would help a LOT also apreciate way too much what u r doing
Hello Terran, look at your patch, now back to mine, now back at your patch, now back to me. Sadly, your patch isn't mine, but if you stopped using Reapers on Metalopolis and played legitimately, your patch could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re on Lost Temple with the cliff abuse your patch could be like. What’s in your base?, back at me. You have it, it’s a siege tank with two shots to kill a +1 Zergling. Look again, the Zerg are now diamonds. Anything is possible when your patch smells like 1.1 and not a lady. I’m on an Ultralisk.
Someone finally had the balls to switch it up, and that from terran to zerg. Alot of top zergs been saying they gonna switch over, but not actually seen anyone do it yet. I really respect morrow for saying his tired of terran, and doesnt like how easy the race is. When you want a challenge you go zerg, and once you go zerg you dont go back
GL morrow, hope to see you play zerg in tournaments soon aswell.
On September 30 2010 22:43 XsebT wrote: Reading this OP I feel like I'm watching some MorroW montage. ^^
Hf and gl with this project!
"The hours approaching, just give it your best You've got to reach your prime. That's when you need to put yourself to the test, And show us a passage of time, We're gonna need a montage (montage) Oh it takes a montage (montage)"
This project definitely puts Morrow on my "respected terran progamers" list. ATM it's him and TLO on this list. [Ok, ok. BratOK does beautiful drops; same goes for InToTheRainbow and there are some other nice terran players, but in the end they are still terran players ]
About zerg micro: I think you should check out FruitDealers last games in the semi finals vs LiveForever. Specifically those on Metalopolis and Scrap station. Fruitdealers micro was delivered with as much awesome as possible and he completely humiliated LiveForever because of the micro (imo). He's cutting corners where other top zerg don't bother to make multiple groups and actually do the micro!
I would definately check those games out if you haven't allready!
I don't think you can become one of the top zergs but if you become a very decent zerg i would be rooting for you. Nobody can be so good at both races to the point that they can represent people at the top. I think this side project would help you understand what it takes for a zerg to win, what zerg is weak at and just about everything for the matchup.
It is so awesome that you are doing this, thanks for keeping us informed. I was afraid we wouldn't hear any more after the other thread degenerated, so I am happy to see you sharing your knowledge with the community.
On September 30 2010 22:31 Klive5ive wrote: Certainly a brave decision. You don't really have a lot to gain by doing this. Good luck anyway, it will be interesting to see how well you do.
he has a ton to gain from this.
even if he switches back to terran, the much deeper understanding of the timings zerg has and what can happen when will benefit his TvZ greatly, as well as the experience playing with the units and their capabilities.
His TvZ is already pretty much unbeatable already; certainly no foreign Zerg can beat Morrow in a series. You judge timing from your own construction and tech points. What timings do Zerg have anyway? You can just watch your replays to see what they had at various points.
It is certainly brave to switch to a difficult race when you're owning it up as another race already. He's essentially giving up a sure thing for an unknown. Losing valuable TvT practice time and potential prizemoney. Great for the fans though. Lets watch this space xD
Morrow, I'm a mediocre (at best) ~1200 point Diamond Terran and I struggle more against Zerg than the Terran and Protoss matchups. I'm lucky if I manage one win our of three against Zerg. Which means I'm a bit "WTF?" when everyone is complaining how uber Terran is and how horrible Zerg is. It's very likely that I just fucking blow, but it's strange that I manage to do reaonsably well against Protoss and other Terrans (maybe it's a playstyle thing).
I wonder when you play Terran against Zerg do you feel like you have a big racial advantage? Do you really feel that Terran is much stronger than Zerg when playing Terran?
It would be interresting to know how you feel the matchup is when you start to get the hang of ZvT.
I would LOVE if the moderators could keep this thread 100% free of any sort of flames or any of that garbage that derailed the last thread into being closed. This is the type of thread that should ideally be in a "only pros can post/everyone can read"-forum...
Please keep this On Topic as it probably will be amazing to follow.
Quite the ballsy move on MorroW's part, much respect to him for going ahead with this. Seems like the sort of thing that will help us to eventually get a better understanding of SC2.
- i am not choosing to do this exact thing with protoss because i find protoss to be just as lacking as terran from an e-sport point of view.
What do you mean by this? 'Lacking' in what way?
he said in the other thread(that got closed caus everybody was flamming either him or IdrA, big suprise huh) that he finds Terran WAY to easy to master and be good at, and he misses the challenge that he got from BW, therefore he will try to play Zerg now
and that would mean that he also find Protoss way to easy
On September 30 2010 22:31 Klive5ive wrote: Certainly a brave decision. You don't really have a lot to gain by doing this. Good luck anyway, it will be interesting to see how well you do.
he has a ton to gain from this.
even if he switches back to terran, the much deeper understanding of the timings zerg has and what can happen when will benefit his TvZ greatly, as well as the experience playing with the units and their capabilities.
His TvZ is already pretty much unbeatable already; certainly no foreign Zerg can beat Morrow in a series. You judge timing from your own construction and tech points. What timings do Zerg have anyway? You can just watch your replays to see what they had at various points.
One thing else that a player can stand to gain from practicing his off-races is an understanding of the reasoning behind behaviors he's seen in other races. A player as experienced as MorroW certainly doesn't need to learn the surface, at-a-glance timings, but playing Zerg may be able to help him predict enemy Zergs' decisions even more effectively.
Mad respect to MorroW for sharing his journey with us. Off-racing is certainly not unheard of among top players (Savior's Terran, Mondragon's Protoss) but usually we rarely get to see it in action.
As a fan, newb, and first-time poster, WAY TO GO MORROW. Seeing an pro (who needs to practice all the time anyways) go from the widely-acknowledged leading race to the "weakest" one is impressive as hell. GL, GG, can't wait to see more.
Finally some selfrespect by a terran player, good, good, very good.. oh wait terran has been nerfed, oh that's the reason, oh yea, i think that's it. cough cough
I hope you get to play a best of five or more vs Idra in a zerg versus zerg. Then if you beat him he has nothing on you (But if you dont, you`re in for some grade A thrash talk)
On September 30 2010 23:31 Bleedorang3 wrote: Remember to:
1. Sac more Overlords 2. Use more Nydus Worms
Haha. But, seriously it's really cool that you're trying out Zerg. Who knows, you may end up liking them more than Terran!
Made me lol.
Props Morrow for actually following through. Also happy the map imbalances are already showing, we really need better maps. I would love to see some insight on the Zerg once you get good with them (hopefully you never drop to my level lol down around 1200).
A question to Morrow, would you say Metalopolis is balanced or does it favor a race ?
I wish you good fortunes with this project Morrow.
Now I wonder is it going to be enough for Idra to never say word balance again if you win a Sunday Go4Sc2 as Zerg or is he going to require you to win something like IEM again.
On September 30 2010 23:31 Bleedorang3 wrote: Remember to:
1. Sac more Overlords 2. Use more Nydus Worms
Haha. But, seriously it's really cool that you're trying out Zerg. Who knows, you may end up liking them more than Terran!
Made me lol.
Props Morrow for actually following through. Also happy the map imbalances are already showing, we really need better maps. I would love to see some insight on the Zerg once you get good with them (hopefully you never drop to my level lol down around 1200).
A question to Morrow, would you say Metalopolis is balanced or does it favor a race ?
On September 30 2010 23:38 DwD wrote: gl Morrow haters gonna hate just keep hwaiting
Oh I'm a morrow hater alright. From the moment he defeated IdrA in the IEM.
That aside, this is a very good step for him. Not because he is playing my race, but because he is learning the ins and outs of it. Knowing what is difficult to handle for your opponent is HUGE.
Quick example: A situation in which terran drops a small MM force ( about 2 medivacs worth ) into the main and starts attacking drones/buildings. The terran player loses all his MM but the zerg has lost a lot of zerglings in the process.
Terran point of view: Meh, I lost my drop force and I didn't kill off that many drones and no production building. That wasnt all that good.
Zerg point of view: OH GOD, I lost a ton of zerglings, I have to keep up production but I lost a few drones. I forgot to creep tumor and inject larva during the attack. What if he attacks my front now? Maybe there is another drop incoming!
The situation is exactly the same, but the player state of mind is completely different. If you know how to put stress on an opponent, you can really start (censored) him up.
Another situation, Terran puts a nuke somewhere in zergs 6 bases. Terran PoV: :D Zerg PoV: OH SNAP OH SNAP ( use more nukes terran players, please we dont keep overseers everywhere and we lack the APM to check each of our bases )
I won't stop hating. I doubt I ever will. But I can still admire his way of getting trained in better mind games. Regardless if he will ever be a pro zerg player, he will still get the needed senses to get that edge in TvZ that other T players won't have.
Keep on making me hate you MorroW, and you'll probably do good in tournaments. I wish you the best of luck in crushing future zergs dreams, turning expanding into nightmares and making them get a night light to keep the reapers from harrassing them while they sleep.
Hell yeah Morrow. Now all your haters from the swarm just became your fans. This is like Brett Favre on the Vikings, except the Terrans aren't going to hate you.
Plus, don't really see why he couldn't become a top Zerg player? Because he's played a race hardcore since beta and a release period of two months, he's stuck with it for the game's lifespan? Hope you find something in the Zerg you love brudda, have fun
This, to me, is the most exciting news in SC2 right now. MorroW, I've always liked you as a player and with this project, it's basically guaranteed that I will be a fan forever. Good luck! I'll certainly be following this closely.
On September 30 2010 22:58 AveiMil wrote: Morrow, I'm a mediocre (at best) ~1200 point Diamond Terran and I struggle more against Zerg than the Terran and Protoss matchups. I'm lucky if I manage one win our of three against Zerg. Which means I'm a bit "WTF?" when everyone is complaining how uber Terran is and how horrible Zerg is. It's very likely that I just fucking blow, but it's strange that I manage to do reaonsably well against Protoss and other Terrans (maybe it's a playstyle thing).
I wonder when you play Terran against Zerg do you feel like you have a big racial advantage? Do you really feel that Terran is much stronger than Zerg when playing Terran?
It would be interresting to know how you feel the matchup is when you start to get the hang of ZvT.
It could be that you aren't harrassing enough if you think it's a playstyle thing (I assume this because I suppose you could get away with playing a bit more passive in vT and vP and still get away with it). Zerg's early game is said to be it's weakness so you should probably exploit that. Also, Thor/hellion as the core of your army is a terrifying thing for zerg to deal with imo.
On September 30 2010 22:40 lolaloc wrote: I thought the topic would be about the awkwardness of Ultralisks popping out from eggs without a clean animation.
LOL me too hahaha I was expecting "am i the only one who thinks ultralisks should have their own egg? i mean how do they fit in that small egg its ridiculous!!!" or something...
On September 30 2010 22:40 lolaloc wrote: I thought the topic would be about the awkwardness of Ultralisks popping out from eggs without a clean animation.
LOL me too hahaha I was expecting "am i the only one who thinks ultralisks should have their own egg? i mean how do they fit in that small egg its ridiculous!!!" or something...
pleasantly surprised.
Me too, I skipped this topic exactly because I thought it'd be about ultralisks and eggs. I only ended up reading it because of TL's tweet.
Really interesting to see where this goes for Morrow.
I'm a 1400 Diamond Zerg and I could probably give you a few tips here and there. The replay packs were all unavailable according to megaupload so I can't comment on those.
ZvZ:
Scouting
13 pool or earlier > Any kind of cheese. Therefore, you want to scout on 9 supply. The optimal time to scout is to have your opponents base fully scouted the exact second a new larva pops at 13 supply so you can make your decision to either go Pool or to continue producing drones. Going 13 pool, I should clarify, is just my personal preference. I feel like when going 14 pool, it's a lot harder to deal with 6 pool. It's not impossible though. On Steppes of War you want to do the same thing but subtracting 1 from the xPool and xHatch (if you decide to go hatch before pool that is).
The 9 scout does not only gives you scouting information but it also gives you the option to delay his expansion if he decides to go hatch before pool. There's simply no reason not to scout imo. You lose income, sure, but you'll have the option to build a later pool than your opponent so it'll even out.
Overlord placement First overlord should 99% of the time be outside your opponents ramp so you can see everything that comes through there. You'll know how many lings he has and if he's expanding (if you scout a drone ofc).
Placement of the second overlord is purely based on personal preference and map. I like to send it to my expansion if I'm going hatch before pool to see if my opponent is trying to block it. Then I'll send it somewhere somewhat close to my ramp so I can see any banelings coming through. Eventually, you'll want the whole path covered with overlords, if you get to that point.
Deviations from the standard ling/bling play
Any kind of deviation from the standard ling/bling play has a very exploitable timing window. It's a small window, but a timing window nonetheless. If you go 14 extractor 14 pool or anything similar to that, you'll end up having about 300 minerals before your first wave of larva pops. This is the best time to either build a hatchery or a roach warren. If you choose neither, you HAVE to convert those minerals into banelings, otherwise you've wasted the opportunity to deviate from the standard ling/bling play. If you successfully get away with build a roach warren or a hatchery, you'll be ahead.
But how do you make use of the timing window if you're sticking with ling/bling? You build banelings and go for his drones. If he has two or more spine crawlers, you'll probably have to retreat. But that's a good thing. If he put down an expansion, you can kill that with lings guarded by banelings. If he put down a roach warren, you can do the same while building drones. You'll be ahead in the economical front.
Even though strategy is important in ZvZ, good micro is always the difference between winning and losing. That and good decision making.
ZvP
Scouting Personally I like to scout at 9 so I know if it's safe to go hatch before pool or not. You can also use your early scout for harassment by blocking his first warpgate (you'll know where it can be placed based on where his pylon is).
Early game Getting ling speed quickly isn't important. You're gonna want it by the 7 minute mark but before that, it's not needed. The key to beating a Protoss is to know exactly how many drones you can produce. Therefore, it's extremely important to keep tabs on what your opponent is doing and you need to know the second he decides to push out. If he's going 4 gate, you need to put down spinecrawlers, more and more the longer the game prolongs.
When he does push out, cease all drone production because you'll want 100% of your larva to go to your army. Throw down a few more spine crawlers and after that it's all about micro and good decision making.
When you've killed off his 4 gate, go for a counter attack and kill off any expansion that he might be trying to build.
Mid game
To me, mid-game is all about going into late game with ultras. I like to open up my games with Speedlings + Hydras. Then I build mutalisks for two reasons: Harassment and to kill colossi. You need an anti-colossi unit to get into late game if you open up with speedlings + hydras.
If he dececides to go for a fast expansion A Protoss with good economy was for me the hardest match up until people told me to double expand as soon as you scout it. This is, in fact, what you have to do. Well, that and going all in. Going all in against a fast expanding protoss has actually literally never failed me. However, if you're playing to improve, I wouldn't recommend doing it.
How do you know if he's fast expanding? (You probably already know) Simple: he blocks off the choke in front of his natural expansion with buildings. If you want to kill him, all you need to do is produce zerglings, get ling speed, build a roach warren when your queen pops (so it'll finish when your first 4 larvae pops). Then get like 6-7 roaches and after that 100% lings.
ZvT
You probably know more about this match-up than me so I won't bother with it. Mutas are awesome and I always get them. Ultralisks should be your goal since it's currently the only way to stop mass thor + blue flame hellions. You could argue that Brood Lords work as well but once your opponent goes vikings you're fucked.
On September 30 2010 22:40 lolaloc wrote: I thought the topic would be about the awkwardness of Ultralisks popping out from eggs without a clean animation.
Well, I started playing as Terran and switched to Zerg pretty early. Everyone was complaining it was harder and I enjoy the challenge, a lot like you Morrow.
However, I have a question for you. In the original thread you said that the game was easy. But, you are one of the best. Should it not be easy? Isn't BW easy to Flash and Jaedong?
I think it has a great learning curve. And people who played BW are way ahead, that's why they think the game is easier in my opinion.
Congrats on your decision to understand the game from different perspectives. Our community sure needs more players like you.
On October 01 2010 01:13 J7S wrote: However, I have a question for you. In the original thread you said that the game was easy. But, you are one of the best. Should it not be easy? Isn't BW easy to Flash and Jaedong?
they need to play 8 hours a day to not get rusty, and i need to play 2 hours a day for that i dont talk about easy as in win, i talk about easy as in easy easy to play
Best of luck! I'm glad that you're willing to dedicate your time to learn more in depth about the game other than just massing games as Terran. I know there's some pros that will dabble around with other races, but I'm hoping more people will do so.
Yea, but maybe that's because there are more better players at BW, because they practiced more, SC2, that is a new game, there are fewer very good players, don't you think?
If people start to get better, maybe you'll need to practice a lot more to still be able to beat them.
On October 01 2010 01:32 J7S wrote: Yea, but maybe that's because there are more better players at BW, because they practiced more, SC2, that is a new game, there are fewer very good players, don't you think?
If people start to get better, maybe you'll need to practice a lot more to still be able to beat them.
that is true. but whats also true what im saying aswell, sc1 IS harder like it or not. and anyone who was good at sc1 agrees with me so i dont see where ur going with this at all. and im still not talking about beating or getting beaten. when i went inactive to play sc2 and then sc2 went down i was gonna play sc1 dreamhack vs haypro, i had some weeks to prepare. massgamed sc1 but it wasnt enough time to even get close back in shape
i can go inactive in sc2 for a month and be back in shape under a hour, which i did sometime in phase 1 and came back for phase 2
As usual, MorroW, you're a boss. =) Good luck using Zerg!
I know you said you'd still be entering tournaments as Terran, but does that mean you're not considering using Zerg at all? I think it'd be quite interesting to see your evolution (so to speak) as a Zerg player in a tournament setting.
On September 30 2010 23:20 xtfftc wrote: Morrow, you should put "Proving Idra wrong" under the goals list. :D
He stated that he thinks zerg is the least powerful race just like IdrA does. I think he's just getting bored with the low APM/less adaption builds style of Terran. Know why I think this? Because he said it.
Out of curiosity, do you find winning as Zerg more gratifying than as Terran? Aside from the fact that each win is a personal accomplishment for you of course because youre are challenging yourself, which I think is awesome. But in general do you feel better about your play after winning as Z than you did as T since it fits your style more?
I switched to zerg to and early game is something that takes a lot a lot of time to really get used to. It's a tricky pony with drone vs zerglings, queens, builds, scouting. I think it's more fun tho
great to hear you're giving zerg a try. i'm sure you'll get to the top with a lot of practice.
p.s what method of larvae inject are you using? there is a really fast method i wanted to share in case you didnt know about it. -all queens in 1 hotkey -press hotkey, press v -press shift (use right shift) and alternately hit backspace and left click to inject all hatcheries
*important thing is to have a queen at each hatchery otherwise they'll move all around the map.
The most interesting thread I've seen so far on TL. I will follow this with great interest. I've been a Zerg player for 12 years, and I guess Morrow will or have already surpassed me after 3 days
His talent was unspent for Terran and Protoss, Zerg is the only race that is true to the feel of Brood War.
On October 01 2010 02:06 AbsentLover wrote: When i read the title and saw the OP i thought you started going to the gym. wishful thinking
Waiting for the "MorroW's body" thread
EDIT: I think everyone's blowing this out of proportion. He's basically just dicking around as Zerg...kind of like the rich kids who "slum it" with their friends until they realize they'd rather have maids do all of their cleaning. He's still Terran when it matters.
Hey MorroW, just letting you know that I am now a big fan of yours! I thought you were just a lame terran player who was only interested in winning tournaments (due to your previous reaper abuse).
The whole idea that you are messing around with zerg because you want more of a challenge and thrive on always being able to improve is something that I can relate to and deeply respect!
I hope that you stick with zerg and eventually main them, I think that there is definitely room at the top for zerg players (as cool is currently showing us). Good luck!
Edit: Also, I just wanted to point out that I think zerg is as equally micro intensive, if not more micro intensive than the other races. It is true they do not have as many abilities that you can activate, however, I believe that positioning and attack timing are such an incredibly important part of a zerg encounter. With improper positioning an equal resource zerg army will get demolished by T or P. But with correct positioning with flanks and the right unit mix, zerg can actually win (this holds true most of the time, try it on a unit tester if you don't believe me).
Other micro intensive things that I believe we haven't seen much of yet but will eventually be incorporated into high level zerg play.
- burrowing weak units - using queens mid battlefield to heal (see recent Cool gsl) - infested terrans to cut off retreat - corruption to take out key units - contaminate to slow key upgrades - dropping banelings from ovies as bombs (I know it's done, but not enough)
These are the kind of threads that only exist on TL. I don't know if you were looking for more fans Morrow but you definitely got some, myself included.
I have to agree. I didn't have much respect for MorroW since i thought he was a just Terran that was most adept at abusing what made Terran OP which at that patch included reapers and what not. I see this challenge as "I want to understand the game more" rather than "I am good period and im cocky so no matter what race I choose I will pwn". Good luck to you in learning the hardest race. And if you are having problems with the droning thing you are going in line with what day9 has as one of the reasons zerg overall isnt as successful and it's knowing when to drone or make units.
On October 01 2010 01:56 Telcontar wrote: great to hear you're giving zerg a try. i'm sure you'll get to the top with a lot of practice.
p.s what method of larvae inject are you using? there is a really fast method i wanted to share in case you didnt know about it. -all queens in 1 hotkey -press hotkey, press v -press shift (use right shift) and alternately hit backspace and left click to inject all hatcheries
*important thing is to have a queen at each hatchery otherwise they'll move all around the map.
anywho gl with the whole thing!
i never understood this method with backspace. I just hotkey all queens press/hold V and click on the mini map at hatcheries. it seems so much easier and less cumbersome than hitting backspace.
On October 01 2010 02:40 Competent wrote: I would like to see a Morrow vs Idra rematch BO 10 or somthing for 200 bucks in a month or two. A ZvZ ofc. =]
Prefer to see a TvZ, MorroW(Z) vs IdrA(T)
Good to see you are sticking with it MorroW! Keep it up, and hope to see some epic replays soon.
I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
On October 01 2010 01:56 Telcontar wrote: great to hear you're giving zerg a try. i'm sure you'll get to the top with a lot of practice.
p.s what method of larvae inject are you using? there is a really fast method i wanted to share in case you didnt know about it. -all queens in 1 hotkey -press hotkey, press v -press shift (use right shift) and alternately hit backspace and left click to inject all hatcheries
*important thing is to have a queen at each hatchery otherwise they'll move all around the map.
anywho gl with the whole thing!
i never understood this method with backspace. I just hotkey all queens press/hold V and click on the mini map at hatcheries. it seems so much easier and less cumbersome than hitting backspace.
anyway gl morroW.
Some people don't have enough mouse precision =) But yeah this is by far the fastest methor for me and I use it exclusively.
On September 30 2010 23:20 xtfftc wrote: Morrow, you should put "Proving Idra wrong" under the goals list. :D
He stated that he thinks zerg is the least powerful race just like IdrA does. I think he's just getting bored with the low APM/less adaption builds style of Terran. Know why I think this? Because he said it.
Gamers, my friend, are complex beings, just like humans. I would suggest further dwelling into the concepts of motivation, irony and fun from your part; this might help your understanding and quality of life inconceivably.
On October 01 2010 02:06 AbsentLover wrote: When i read the title and saw the OP i thought you started going to the gym. wishful thinking
Waiting for the "MorroW's body" thread
EDIT: I think everyone's blowing this out of proportion. He's basically just dicking around as Zerg...kind of like the rich kids who "slum it" with their friends until they realize they'd rather have maids do all of their cleaning. He's still Terran when it matters.
this is a pretty good analogy
but anyway, gl Morrow and I eagerly await the replay pack
Like I said in the other topic before random moron posters ruined it: I look forward to seeing replays and such from this, and I am glad you are playing the game to have FUN when you can.
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
What do you not understand? Yes, if you or someone else announced their offracing to the world, it would not be a big deal, and probably the thread would get locked aswell immediately. But, Morrow is (by far) the most successful SC2 tournament player in the history of SC2. See this link:
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
Yeah, kinda sounds like more like a publicity stunt to me than anything substantial. But whatever, it seems to be working lol.
Awesome stuff morrow. I Enjoy watching your games, and will apreciate any insight you can us on the zerg race. I am a lower level zerg player and ive been unsure/afraid to play and lose. Seeing a top notch player play and lose and be ok with it definetly makes me want to get in there. GL learning the zerg race, and I really really look forward to watching your zerg matches on day9/husky/hd in the future!
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
One of the best players in the west switching race and posting replays and experiences as he learns with a very above average learning curve? I don´t see how this CAN´T be good to anyone wanting to learn about zerg or zerg match ups .... (except for high zerg players 1700+ perhaps )
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
manner up, this day is to be marked as a huge milestone in sc2 history, imo this thread isnt even worthy enought of morrows(the self proclaimed top 3 t user in bw) grandure.. someone needs to start a morrow fanclub ASAP
On October 01 2010 01:56 Telcontar wrote: great to hear you're giving zerg a try. i'm sure you'll get to the top with a lot of practice.
p.s what method of larvae inject are you using? there is a really fast method i wanted to share in case you didnt know about it. -all queens in 1 hotkey -press hotkey, press v -press shift (use right shift) and alternately hit backspace and left click to inject all hatcheries
*important thing is to have a queen at each hatchery otherwise they'll move all around the map.
anywho gl with the whole thing!
i never understood this method with backspace. I just hotkey all queens press/hold V and click on the mini map at hatcheries. it seems so much easier and less cumbersome than hitting backspace.
anyway gl morroW.
well the minimap way works fine as well but its much more accurate to cycle through the hatcheries. with practice practice there is little difference between the two in terms of the time it takes.
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
What do you not understand? Yes, if you or someone else announced their offracing to the world, it would not be a big deal, and probably the thread would get locked aswell immediately. But, Morrow is (by far) the most successful SC2 tournament player in the history of SC2. See this link:
I urge you to look things up before you post, but have you not followed the scene at all?
Dude, you sound like some nerdy kids arguing that Harry Potter is the best wizard of them all. "the most successful SC2 tournament player in the history of SC2?" I kind of hoped it's a joke at the beginning but saying something like this is like me inventing a game yesterday and the next day proclaiming myself the most successful [game] player in the history of [game]. Chill out, jesus... People are getting so worked up over this when it's just a top player switching his race, messing around, which is fine. If there's interest in that, then there's interest, but don't make this the most important event of the 21st century.
Morrow, I'm surprised you haven't thrown your keyboard out the window yet. Going from T to Z is a good way to realize just how easy it is to win as T and how easy it is to lose as Z to someone who is absolutely terrible. I feel that way as P, and honestly it's not half as bad as it is for Z. There's so many times I lose to people I completely outplay because I just didn't scout some allin. That's every single game as zerg.
Let me know when you start getting tired of being beaten by terrible terrans. Then I'll know you've passed the gauntlet =P
- i wish blizzard worked on making zerg micro more indeph at same time making protoss and terran more apm and mechanics demanding in the macro.
Please Please.
Don't get me wrong, i love SC2 but this is a must Blizzard. Protoss and Terran lack the apm and mechanics that made them fun and challenging, and as of right now Zerg just feels like Survive,Mass, A-move,Repeat. I like how zergs mechanics are challenging, but hate the fact that at heart im a Terran since BW.
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
What do you not understand? Yes, if you or someone else announced their offracing to the world, it would not be a big deal, and probably the thread would get locked aswell immediately. But, Morrow is (by far) the most successful SC2 tournament player in the history of SC2. See this link:
I urge you to look things up before you post, but have you not followed the scene at all?
Yeah I agree, what dont you understand. He clearly links the thread where people were ripping him up for trying another race, so rather then let people talk behind his back, hes letting you talk right to his face. GAWD!!!!
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
So? Obviously there is a lot of interest in Morrows dabble into the zerg race, as evident by the locked 30 page thread. If there wasn't any interest I bet he wouldn't have posted this thread. Many people obviously think this is interesting and I can see several reasons for that. Also you are free to create a thread where we can follow your development into your offrace. I wouldn't read it, but I wouldn't laugh either.
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
So? Obviously there is a lot of interest in Morrows dabble into the zerg race, as evident by the locked 30 page thread. If there wasn't any interest I bet he wouldn't have posted this thread. Many people obviously think this is interesting and I can see several reasons for that. Also you are free to create a thread where we can follow your development into your offrace. I wouldn't read it, but I wouldn't laugh either.
Um, from what I remember, that thread was comprised of mostly negative comments. There was a lot of "interest" because of the implications of a top terran player who had like a 20 game losing streak playing as zerg. There's no doubt morrow is a skilled terran player, but I suggest he try and win a gsl or two, or, just play on the KR server, before he says that he's nearly reached the skill ceiling on terran.
Morrow has always said that he feels his skills are going unnoticed because of the fact that he plays terran. This is true to some extent of course. But if he wants some attention, he needs to play in Korea and compare his play to the real progamers in GSL#2. That is where you prove your mettle, not just against fellow foreigners in this IEM or that MLG. Go to GSL and see just how much you mastered terran.
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
manner up, this day is to be marked as a huge milestone in sc2 history, imo this thread isnt even worthy enought of morrows(the self proclaimed top 3 t user in bw) grandure.. someone needs to start a morrow fanclub ASAP
User was warned for this post
You bitched in the earlier thread about Morrow switching to zerg, and now you've come here to be a complete ass aswell.. I thought better of you TT1.
On topic: I root for you Morrow and hope (and i bet) you will find more challenge playing zerg! I will watch your progress day by day
MorroW I have never been a huge fan of you because of your playstyle, but you seem to have great willpower as well as good intentions so GLHF with this Zerg project :D
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
manner up, this day is to be marked as a huge milestone in sc2 history, imo this thread isnt even worthy enought of morrows(the self proclaimed top 3 t user in bw) grandure.. someone needs to start a morrow fanclub ASAP
User was warned for this post
Wow your bm in these threads is just ridiculous. Every bit of new found respect for you as a player is pretty much diminishing, mr. ex-hacker.
Awesome, i really hope this works out for you Morrow. I knew there was a reason i was a fan xD. Great inniative.
One thing I do believe is that knowing both sides of a Match is the only way you can master it. In WC3 i played Human before switching to Orc. And thus i believe that was the reason i was slightly better against HU, despite all the imba cries.
Big fan of your style when it comes to expressing thoughts and being honest about how things are. Something many swedish guys does not grasp well enough
I also enjoy your macro-defensive style as I am a a child of NTT replays
TT1's rage is impressive! Especially considering it was his idea to make a thread with replay packs included. I definitely like TT1 better when he plays, not talks. Anyways, good luck with the zerg.
The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.
im trying to DL the latest pack, but i get this message
EDIT: ok, i menaged to DL, i was hoping for some funky tactics from you, as you have probably seen most of what Zerg can throw at Terran, but i was sad to see that even ~40 apm or so terras beat you with the same old bullshit allins/tactics such as repair-allin or cliff drop.
On October 01 2010 04:50 Geo.Rion wrote: The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.
im trying to DL the latest pack, but i get this message
EDIT: ok, i menaged to DL, i was hoping for some funky tactics from you, as you have probably seen most of what Zerg can throw at Terran, but i was sad to see that even ~40 apm or so terras beat you with the same old bullshit allins/tactics such as repair-allin or cliff drop.
He is a very methodical player when he trains. He probably won't do anything crazy until he got the mechanics down.
On October 01 2010 04:50 Geo.Rion wrote: The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.
im trying to DL the latest pack, but i get this message
EDIT: ok, i menaged to DL, i was hoping for some funky tactics from you, as you have probably seen most of what Zerg can throw at Terran, but i was sad to see that even ~40 apm or so terras beat you with the same old bullshit allins/tactics such as repair-allin or cliff drop.
He is a very methodical player when he trains. He probably won't do anything crazy until he got the mechanics down.
yeah i know, still, it hurts to see him lose to trash players even i have beaten before
Big ups to Morrow, dude is hella good and I'm sure he'll become a great zerg player who will be fun to watch. Don't let the haters get you down, some people just don't know how to lose
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
manner up, this day is to be marked as a huge milestone in sc2 history, imo this thread isnt even worthy enought of morrows(the self proclaimed top 3 t user in bw) grandure.. someone needs to start a morrow fanclub ASAP
User was warned for this post
Why was he warned for this...
SIDE NOTE
I cant be a fan of somebody who would flame a caster, who had a video card problem, so hard. The game was over, it was clear. If they didn't cast you I sure as hell wouldn't know who you are
On October 01 2010 02:47 NrG.NeverExpo wrote: I don't understand the point of this thread. So a player is practicing an offrace more then normal and he's announcing it to the world, is that big of a deal? Most people would be laughed at if they did something like this.
manner up, this day is to be marked as a huge milestone in sc2 history, imo this thread isnt even worthy enought of morrows(the self proclaimed top 3 t user in bw) grandure.. someone needs to start a morrow fanclub ASAP
User was warned for this post
Why was he warned for this...
SIDE NOTE
I cant be a fan of somebody who would flame a caster, who had a video card problem, so hard. The game was over, it was clear. If they didn't cast you I sure as hell wouldn't know who you are
User was warned for this post
If you have problems or questions about moderation, PM a moderator directly. There's no sense in discussing a ban in the thread.
He was warned for having 7 of his last 8 comments insulting Morrow or arguing why Morrow didn't deserve to have a thread opened.
I was pretty upset after the IEM Finals, but I'm glad to see you giving The Swarm a chance. Maybe after seeing it from both sides as a competitor your thoughts could be of use to Blizzard. I certainly will be checking this thread to get your opinions on the matter. Good luck!
At the worst it will make your Terran better since you will understand Zerg better. Potentially this could be great for the game because imo it will put you in a position to give Blizzard some great feedback on Zerg and Terran.
This is really cool, and it shows you have the will of a top player, but i'm afraid this will reduce your training as terran and cost you in the long run.
1 terran less, thats good. but ZvZ sucks so hard, if i see more and more ppl playing Zerg, then i will switch to Protoss, because im happy that so few ppl play Zerg, then there is a very low chance to play ZvZ at all, and thats good. Because ZvZ is the worst matchup in the game by far... Imagine every 2-3 Games you have to do ZvZ :o oh my...
But grats on choosing the right way, and a Zerg Buff is coming soon, we all know it.
Given the number of threads we've seen where people admit they're scared to ladder, it takes a lot of guts for someone who is well known to be willing to so publicly lose so many games as a learning experience.
On October 01 2010 09:53 Shakes wrote: Given the number of threads we've seen where people admit they're scared to ladder, it takes a lot of guts for someone who is well known to be willing to so publicly lose so many games as a learning experience.
why would he care about his ladder ranking? he can always switch back to terran and get back to the same point anyways. he has nothing to lose. Hes so well known that when people see his losses as zerg they will know hes learning zerg, not OMG morrow just went from pro to shit in 3 weeks!
On October 01 2010 09:53 Shakes wrote: Given the number of threads we've seen where people admit they're scared to ladder, it takes a lot of guts for someone who is well known to be willing to so publicly lose so many games as a learning experience.
why would he care about his ladder ranking? he can always switch back to terran and get back to the same point anyways. he has nothing to lose. Hes so well known that when people see his losses as zerg they will know hes learning zerg, not OMG morrow just went from pro to shit in 3 weeks!
how can you be so misguided? ;\
I'm saying that there are people who are basically anonymous saying "Oh I don't like to ladder, because I'm scared of losing" when nobody is ever going to care whether they win or lose a game. Obviously that's not MorroW's situation, the fact that hundreds of people have posted in this and the other thread attests to the fact people do care.
Obviously he can go back to Terran and regain the rank, that's not the point, the point is that losing is something a lot of people find hard to do, and losing in public is something that most of us find a heck of a lot harder still, so props to him for being willing to do it.
A lot of new sc2 players doesn't see the ladder the same as us and our sc1 bnet ladder and the likes. We all know that laddering is a very good way to improve our style but most of the new players may be afraid to play cauz they care a lot about their stats. Afterall there's no way to smurf anymore, so yeah...
On October 01 2010 10:02 RaiZ wrote: A lot of new sc2 players doesn't see the ladder the same as us and our sc1 bnet ladder and the likes. We all know that laddering is a very good way to improve our style but most of the new players may be afraid to play cauz they care a lot about their stats. Afterall there's no way to smurf anymore, so yeah...
curse you for taking the short form of my name XD
and yeah agrees cuz I'm pretty scarred to ladder myself alot fo the times. sometime si'll have momentum and win like 5 straight and then it will be followed by a losing streak fo 5 and i just never move anywhere and im always afraid my losing will outdo my winning and i really want to maintain at least a 50% win rate in diamond to be happy with myself.
It's impossible to NOT have a huge amount of respect for a top player switching to the (perceived) weakest race and posting all his replay packs as he plummets in the ladder trying to figure it out. In the end, if he sticks with it, he'll probably become a much better player, and we'll all learn alot more about balance.
Just want to emphasize, I actually love watching a whole bunch of games from the same player to learn how the decisions branch based on the strategies. I'll be watching the replay packs with quite a bit of interest.
On October 01 2010 11:47 bingobango wrote: It's impossible to NOT have a huge amount of respect for a top player switching to the (perceived) weakest race and posting all his replay packs as he plummets in the ladder trying to figure it out. In the end, if he sticks with it, he'll probably become a much better player, and we'll all learn alot more about balance.
Just want to emphasize, I actually love watching a whole bunch of games from the same player to learn how the decisions branch based on the strategies. I'll be watching the replay packs with quite a bit of interest.
Actually its pretty possible. Morrow is effectively just playing around with zerg... sure thats cool and interesting but I don't understand this "omg so much respect for you man". Its his ladder account its hardly like he is declaring he is only going to be using zerg in tournies from now on.
So yes, its interesting and I want to see what happens but please people get off this crazy respect crap.
Rather smart marketing happening here. Most applaud Morrow for that. Will be interesting to see what happens but a top player will be a top player regardless of race. I guess it's just about where in the top they will be.
am i alone that can't get to download the day3 pack from duckload? i tried twice already and even added the .rar file extension when saving it to the hard drive and the file just doesn't appear anywhere -_- post a mirror or something pls
I'm really really interested in seeing what goes on with Morrow trying out Zerg. I hope this is a "I'm really considering switching to Zerg" Rather than a, "I'm just playing around with Zerg."I'm going to be disappointed if he stays with Terran after playing Zerg for a while, since he's complaining about Terran's APM and mechanical requirements, and we need more good Zergs!!!!
On October 02 2010 08:27 Darkn3ss wrote: Cool stuff!
So have you had any moments where you were like "FML TERRAN IMBA!!!"? Hehe
haha, i wont get that until i win all my zvz's and zvp's, then we will see )
Hehe well either way that's awesome. I'll definitely check this thread regularly to see where you're at with zerg! XD
Maybe you can also upload individual replays of games that, you thought, were more special than the rest. That way I don't have to watch the whole replay pack to find something cool! (School takes up too much time QQ)
1st October getting better at creep spreading, started to make an additional queen only for that purpose against toss users im learning alot about zvp late game and how lacking in upgrades ive been against them for air and melee attacks
There have been some strange shifts in my records vs. the different races in comparison to my Z-Games as Rnd.
ZvT: Before was at like 40%. Now it's way better. Won the last 3 ZvTs ZvZ: Feels way harder compared to when I was random. The other guy knowing what I am prevents him from doing stuff early on that isn't good in that MU. ZvP: Now here it is the most extreme. I found I had a really good record in that MU (like 75%) but since I Z-only it has become by far my worst MU. Have been losing over and over. 4 ZvPs lost in a row before finally the 1st victory.
I'm interested in your views about zerg as a terran player :D
What are your fundamental insights about zerg? As zerg, what do you think are the most important things to exploit vT or vP? or vs any opponent as a matter of fact?
How can you lose 500 points? at 1800 you can 6-pool and win vs most( a 2000, 200-60 player should know how to micro/when to take fights and what positions to outclass any 1800 diamond player that is below 75%) Just shows how easy it is to play terran right now, but good luck with zerg, only thing it is going to do for you is get you better for when you switch back to terran and make the zvt even worse for the Z
On October 02 2010 09:53 peachsncream wrote: How can you lose 500 points? at 1800 you can 6-pool and win vs most( a 2000, 200-60 player should know how to micro/when to take fights and what positions to outclass any 1800 diamond player that is below 75%) Just shows how easy it is to play terran right now, but good luck with zerg, only thing it is going to do for you is get you better for when you switch back to terran and make the zvt even worse for the Z
Except he's playing standard. To switch from T or P to Z is the hardest switch because their play styles and management is so different. So I don't think it's that weird that he's dropping that fast.
What I find most interesting about all of this is the ranking. It's interesting to see him decline so dramatically. I'm an 800 diamond protoss, and have also made the switch to zerg. The difference between me and Morrow being I've never played an RTS matchmaking before SC2.
I've worked my way up from complete newbie in beta to somewhat competent now, a couple months after release. What I've noticed is that after switching twice now, is that I've stayed pretty much even in points and rank, while my Win/loss declines by a very small amount.
What I've concluded is that to get into and stay in diamond, all you need is a basic understanding of the game and it's mechanics, as any race. I think this means that only in diamond are you going to be able to match someones rank based on skill, anywhere below that there is probably going to be way too much random variance in play to get a proper measure. And that blizzards matchmaking system can clearly show the gap of skill in peoples play if you can drop 500 points in just a few days. I'm more interested in seeing how fast you can go back up in rank though. See how much is based on skill, and not grinding.
On October 02 2010 10:49 Uncultured wrote: What I find most interesting about all of this is the ranking. It's interesting to see him decline so dramatically. I'm an 800 diamond protoss, and have also made the switch to zerg. The difference between me and Morrow being I've never played an RTS matchmaking before SC2.
I've worked my way up from complete newbie in beta to somewhat competent now, a couple months after release. What I've noticed is that after switching twice now, is that I've stayed pretty much even in points and rank, while my Win/loss declines by a very small amount.
What I've concluded is that to get into and stay in diamond, all you need is a basic understanding of the game and it's mechanics, as any race. I think this means that only in diamond are you going to be able to match someones rank based on skill, anywhere below that there is probably going to be way too much random variance in play to get a proper measure. And that blizzards matchmaking system can clearly show the gap of skill in peoples play if you can drop 500 points in just a few days. I'm more interested in seeing how fast you can go back up in rank though. See how much is based on skill, and not grinding.
the difference is that he was #8 worldwide, so probably his elo is still so bizarre so he is still facing bizarre ppl ...
Yeah, ladder points doesnt mean shit. Its those hidden points that match you with other people. And I think Morrow wants to actually learn the Zerg race, not play for win. Cos that would mean nothing to him. He wants to learn every aspect of Zerg in order to counter it better with his main terran or even make a switch to Zerg.
On October 02 2010 20:54 Maginor wrote: You didn't play with health bars on before? So you never focused down wounded units in a mass fight or pulled back your own units that were wounded?
well u can still hold down alt, i had so u only see hp on selected units. once u play alot of sc2 u will learn by heart which units are on low hp and so on without seeing hp bars over them ofcourse i do this micro how else would i manage to win anything as terran^^ with terran it was alot better to play with hp bars off actually (my opinion ofcourse)
first of all congratulations for your decission to try another race, particulary Zerg. I guess it's trivial to point out, that it will widen and improve your understanding of the game. Like Katsumoto says in "The last Samurai": "I want to know my enemy". From this point alone, it would be worth it, even if you return to Terran (an as a Terran myself I can only say: "We will need you to stay!" ). But boy, couldn't you have picked a less painful way to do so? Do a little more practicing against AI and watch a few more replays before starting? Anyways, it's nice to see you enjoying the game and don't bother with such materialistic details like ladderpoints or match histories. It speaks for you being a big fighter going for higher aims. This and your mature reactions are honoring you and let one sense the high human potential you have. Hats of Sire.
Though (hehe!)... I think that you feel like you have to atone for your "sin of playing that race". You point out the difficult mechanics of Zerg. They comprise of what exactly? I guess it's Queen management (1) and spreading creep (2). Do I miss out on something? Yes: you have to select larva to produce an unit (3). But let's look to what you get for that. 0. When you build an Building you sacrifice an Drone. Thats it, no way-points back to gatering. And you don't have to build Supplydepots, Pylons, with your Drones. 1. With 3 Hatcheries and 3 Queens, 1 on each of them, you can build (provided you have the minerals and gas and that you do your Queenrotation every 40 seconds) what? 21 Units in 40 seconds out of three production buildings (OK, 3 of the have to be Overlords for quite some time)? No need to decide reactor or tech lab or exchange the addons tossing your facilities around no need to chronoboost (the productiontime for zergunits is already quite low). Lets not speak about the extra cost for building all those production facilities, it's out of the scope of the difficulty of the mechanics. 2. Creep is an nice thing, isn't it. Besides the Queen, which unit of the Zerg is realy so slow, that it's needs Creep in despair? Hydralisk, some would say. Which is as fast as an unstimed Marine, Zealot whatever... The point: could it be that creep all over the place is rather an nice bonus besides for the Queen, for her to be enabled to defend in the early game against harrashment? (The same way that always larva inject timely is maybe also necessery rather in the early game, but after, let's say 40 drones, when the economy is runing smoothly the constant larva production is rather an enormous bost in the ability of the Zerg to produce units, compared to the other races and what the have to do, manage and spent to keep up with Zerg?) 3. Having to select larva is weighted up by the other races having to tab from one sort of production facilities to the other Barracks TAB Factories TAB Starport for Terran for example.
That's it. Dont have to contribute much more at the moment, and the thread isn't about ZvT, ZvP metagame. Might be, that I am missing out on something, since I touched Zerg only a little in vs AI games to learn a bit about the race, how their buildings look, how their units are produced. I am your fan man (as much as my personality allows me to be a fan!) and keep smashing, with whatever race you decide to play.
I myself am trying to get up in the bars from bronze (Ranking first right now, and fighting to keep my spot there.) to at least high in the silver league at this point. I may even shoot for gold.
I wish you luck in your endeavor, and may your swarm always be large and swarm-y.
first of all congratulations for your decission to try another race, particulary Zerg. I guess it's trivial to point out, that it will widen and improve your understanding of the game. Like Katsumoto says in "The last Samurai": "I want to know my enemy". From this point alone, it would be worth it, even if you return to Terran (an as a Terran myself I can only say: "We will need you to stay!" ). But boy, couldn't you have picked a less painful way to do so? Do a little more practicing against AI and watch a few more replays before starting? Anyways, it's nice to see you enjoying the game and don't bother with such materialistic details like ladderpoints or match histories. It speaks for you being a big fighter going for higher aims. This and your mature reactions are honoring you and let one sense the high human potential you have. Hats of Sire.
Though (hehe!)... I think that you feel like you have to atone for your "sin of playing that race". You point out the difficult mechanics of Zerg. They comprise of what exactly? I guess it's Queen management (1) and spreading creep (2). Do I miss out on something? Yes: you have to select larva to produce an unit (3). But let's look to what you get for that. 0. When you build an Building you sacrifice an Drone. Thats it, no way-points back to gatering. And you don't have to build Supplydepots, Pylons, with your Drones. 1. With 3 Hatcheries and 3 Queens, 1 on each of them, you can build (provided you have the minerals and gas and that you do your Queenrotation every 40 seconds) what? 21 Units in 40 seconds out of three production buildings (OK, 3 of the have to be Overlords for quite some time)? No need to decide reactor or tech lab or exchange the addons tossing your facilities around no need to chronoboost (the productiontime for zergunits is already quite low). Lets not speak about the extra cost for building all those production facilities, it's out of the scope of the difficulty of the mechanics. 2. Creep is an nice thing, isn't it. Besides the Queen, which unit of the Zerg is realy so slow, that it's needs Creep in despair? Hydralisk, some would say. Which is as fast as an unstimed Marine, Zealot whatever... The point: could it be that creep all over the place is rather an nice bonus besides for the Queen, for her to be enabled to defend in the early game against harrashment? (The same way that always larva inject timely is maybe also necessery rather in the early game, but after, let's say 40 drones, when the economy is runing smoothly the constant larva production is rather an enormous bost in the ability of the Zerg to produce units, compared to the other races and what the have to do, manage and spent to keep up with Zerg?) 3. Having to select larva is weighted up by the other races having to tab from one sort of production facilities to the other Barracks TAB Factories TAB Starport for Terran for example.
That's it. Dont have to contribute much more at the moment, and the thread isn't about ZvT, ZvP metagame. Might be, that I am missing out on something, since I touched Zerg only a little in vs AI games to learn a bit about the race, how their buildings look, how their units are produced. I am your fan man (as much as my personality allows me to be a fan!) and keep smashing, with whatever race you decide to play.
Well, the basic mechanics aren't that much tougher than a terran or protoss (exept maybe the way you spawn larva with your queen) but because everything comes out of 1 building you need to put a lot of thought into the unit producing. Automation here can and will kill you unless you've practiced it intensely. If you're going, say, marine tank as a terran you can spam 2 A A A A 3 T for example (once you're set up midgame), which can happen pretty much blindly. As a zerg, i'm actually forced to count how many of each unit i'm training so my unit mix doesn't get skewed in the wrong direction, or even worse: i end up training to many drones instead of zerglings and die. It may not be that much tougher than the other races, but it does take some serious getting used to.
Respect to you Morrow, for trying this out. Still, i'd have played some games vs AI or vs training partners first, just to let you ease into the mechanics and tactics of the race. You gotta learn the end-game feel as well, which is tough if you never survive the first 7 minute mark push :S
Hello Terran, look at your patch, now back to mine, now back at your patch, now back to me. Sadly, your patch isn't mine, but if you stopped using Reapers on Metalopolis and played legitimately, your patch could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re on Lost Temple with the cliff abuse your patch could be like. What’s in your base?, back at me. You have it, it’s a siege tank with two shots to kill a +1 Zergling. Look again, the Zerg are now diamonds. Anything is possible when your patch smells like 1.1 and not a lady. I’m on an Ultralisk.
haahha i actually ctrl+f "reapers" hoping to find a smartass that thinks hes clever knocking morrow for changing races after the patch, but instead found the best post i've seen on teamliquid in a long time!
nice job morrow! I'm always ur fan. I get the feeling that zerg power currently is under used by many even professional players. After the GSL final, I think I might have known why.
I'm not trying to be a dick about this because I support the whole project thing. I am a zerg player only about 800-900 I'de rate myself capped at about 1300-1500 zerg at the moment (I dont get to play as much as I'de like).
It surprises me sir, and it doesn't that as terran you didnt have to use health bars always on. Did you press Alt in needed situations, or did it just not matter?
so, after watching 1 game (the long one vs p from day 3), consider the following: * vs colossi, you pretty much need corruptors. they rip hydras and roaches apart. * droning is cool, but don't drone THAT much. you were oversaturated an awful lot. * infestors go in their own control groups. as do ranged units, if you have melee units. * spawning a nydus worm to distract was cool. do know that you can queue worms on different locations. pretty useful.
in closing, please upload your files on mediafire.com in the future. duckload is a massive hassle.
Hello Terran, look at your patch, now back to mine, now back at your patch, now back to me. Sadly, your patch isn't mine, but if you stopped using Reapers on Metalopolis and played legitimately, your patch could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re on Lost Temple with the cliff abuse your patch could be like. What’s in your base?, back at me. You have it, it’s a siege tank with two shots to kill a +1 Zergling. Look again, the Zerg are now diamonds. Anything is possible when your patch smells like 1.1 and not a lady. I’m on an Ultralisk.
haahha i actually ctrl+f "reapers" hoping to find a smartass that thinks hes clever knocking morrow for changing races after the patch, but instead found the best post i've seen on teamliquid in a long time!
Morrow's analysis of SC2 race balance is reallllllly good. It's probably the most unbias and true viewpoint you could get.
Morrow: "Well it�s like this in SC1 I could play a very defensive play style, or a timing based play style, or all-in, or very harass pressure. In every single matchup I could have any style. In SC2, I cannot just sit and play defensively against a Zerg or Toss, because Terran's strength is the ability to be in the opponents face all the time, so that is the best way to play with Terran, but it feels a bit shallow.
And if you take Zerg for example, now suddenly the only way to play is to play defensive, which is sort of true for ZvP as well. I fell that every race is kind of forced into a play style, unlike SC1, with Terran, the macro is so damn simple, but with Zerg, all I have is Macro, and there are some ground micro basics of a Zerg, but were never going to see a Zerg play like a Terran does with just a few units.
So that�s why I'm sort of unhappy with all the races because none of them fill the required skill level to be closed to compared to SC1. "
Thanks for the updates MorroW. Ive been watching all your replays :p Its nice to see your progress, im trying to learn zerg myself, and this is actually helping me.
On October 05 2010 06:45 grudgeStar wrote: "been loving the neutral parasite to counter thor so far, i dont know why zergs thing its useless"
Who said this? A bronze zerg?
everone who i talked to and pretty much all mediocre zerg gamers upwards. everyone on IEM seemed to agree that neutral parasite wasnt underused, it was just so bad that it wasnt worth getting. personally i feel the best way to counter the thor hellion tank play is just by roaches lings and infestors. yep, no mutalisk :p if u spread infestors well o nthe map they neglect hellion harass just as well
On October 05 2010 07:09 noD wrote: Hey morrow, awesome thread, could u put a very small description on the replays when u go saving them? thanks
wayy too much work, infact im gonna start updating this once every third day or so for bigger packs instead of updating it every day as i realized i only played 8~ games some days which is just not alot to watch )
On October 05 2010 07:04 titaniumnuts wrote: Morrow, what are your thoughts on the muta, ling baneling, composition that is found in a lot of tvz matchups, now that you've seen it from both side?
well its great vs bio play, but as soon as the terran throws in some tanks to deal with the banes i either need a more costy army or throw in infestors to beat this. but since a zerg can get 3base i still think its pretty fair game as far as early midgame goes anyway. the composition is great for nullifying the armies so its best just to use for grab many bases quickly as u will need to compensate for the gas heavy army. but later on zergs will have to mix it up ofcourse, and its not like u can muta ling baneling vs any terran army in the midgame aswell. its a nice style but zergs shouldnt feel its the only way to play at all. ive just felt so strong with roach ling infestor even vs bio
I recently switched to Zerg and I'm amazed by how many free wins Terran players hand me by massing Thors. Make enough infestors to NP every single one-- that is a sad battle for the Terran player.
I was already a fan of Morrow before this, he's also very young so once he's done with school maybe he can go to korea in a year or two. All progamers should try all races and be ready to switch depending on the matchup and map. That's a huge advantage, especially in sc2 where maps influence so much the gameplay, TLO does it but i think Morrow can do better.
morrow, if you got time I'd really like to hear what you think about the balance/difficulty-differences between ZvT and ZvP - since many ppl (especially in korean) nowadays say that ZvP is actually much harder than ZvT
awsome reps btw, really like that you don't hang onto games when you made mistakes on ladder, since ladder means shit
On October 05 2010 08:21 MorroW wrote: personally i feel the best way to counter the thor hellion tank play is just by roaches lings and infestors. yep, no mutalisk :p if u spread infestors well o nthe map they neglectnegate hellion harass just as well
This is good insight... I think hte Magic box is overrated. Roaches infestors and Lings are the way to go. Infestors nullify SCV repair, roaches/lings/blings are the obvious ground army. I can't wait to see your Zerg in 6 months and I hope you play it permanently.
By the way I fixed your wording lol. Neglect means to ignore or disregard. Negate means to nullify, make less/none of.
On October 05 2010 06:45 grudgeStar wrote: "been loving the neutral parasite to counter thor so far, i dont know why zergs thing its useless"
Who said this? A bronze zerg?
everone who i talked to and pretty much all mediocre zerg gamers upwards. everyone on IEM seemed to agree that neutral parasite wasnt underused, it was just so bad that it wasnt worth getting. personally i feel the best way to counter the thor hellion tank play is just by roaches lings and infestors. yep, no mutalisk :p if u spread infestors well o nthe map they neglect hellion harass just as well
I've never understood this mentality, if you do out the math NP is very favorable on thors (prevents 500ish dmg to your army and causes 500 dmg to their army). It's not something that necessarily scales well into late game due to tanks & larger army sizes crowding out the infestors, but by then you have plenty of ways to deal with thors (ultras, upgraded roaches/lings, broodlords).
It can also have a FG like effect because the NPed Thors deny space in your enemy's concave.
If you go pit out of lair and scout the Thors in time to have NP researched you just CRUSH the first or second Thor push so bad that it's almost gg right there.
NP is good against thors/colossi, but you get it so late for such a cost that its only worth it if they are getting masses of that unit. The energy upgrade is needed so NP has to come after that.
Honestly, if the game goes into very very late game and they are keeping up with thors, I will make sure I have it. But it comes so late that in almost all of my games I see myself not getting it.
On October 05 2010 23:41 btlyger wrote: NP is good against thors/colossi, but you get it so late for such a cost that its only worth it if they are getting masses of that unit. The energy upgrade is needed so NP has to come after that.
Honestly, if the game goes into very very late game and they are keeping up with thors, I will make sure I have it. But it comes so late that in almost all of my games I see myself not getting it.
It depends on your build. In ZvT I open with a pretty standard lair timing (about the time it takes to make 2 queens from a hatchery) and right at lair I go pit->energy upgrade->infestors at 40% energy upgrade done (so they pop out with 75 energy). Really there's nothing stopping me from getting NP right after that, and I will if I see heavy mech coming. Yeah it's still kinda a long time (50+80+110), but it's not super late or anything.
I'd need more testing on the exact timing, but I think if he pushes with anything more than a single Thor I will have NP up in time.
It's a shame you can't burrow cast NP anymore because that also made it useful vs tanks & ravens.
It's low army sizes when you want NP. Take an army that's 12 marines and 1 Thor + 4 scvs (made up numbers, but it's about what you might see on an early thor push). With 1 NP you take 10 population, almost 50% of the army, out of the picture and a much higher % of the enemy's health and resource investment. Also early pushes will resolve quicker so you have more time to dmg the NPed unit before the NP wears off.
Hi Morrow if you don't mind me asking a couple of questions
-- How has playing Zerg affected your Terran play? -- Do you find any particular preference of style? -- Do you play on EU and US ? Have you found any difference?
On October 05 2010 08:28 Ndugu wrote: I recently switched to Zerg and I'm amazed by how many free wins Terran players hand me by massing Thors. Make enough infestors to NP every single one-- that is a sad battle for the Terran player.
Ummm.. what? So you NP every single one, then wait 12 seconds, then die when they all come back under the Terran control?
On October 05 2010 08:21 MorroW wrote: well its great vs bio play, but as soon as the terran throws in some tanks to deal with the banes i either need a more costy army or throw in infestors to beat this.
How do infestors counter tanks? 13 > 9. Not trying to be a dick, as I'm probably just missing something, but every time I've tried to get infestors vs Tank support, they just get splattered, even if they manage to get 1-2 NP off.
edit: damnit, sorry for double post, I meant to edit this into my first one, but just forgot. doh.
On October 05 2010 08:28 Ndugu wrote: I recently switched to Zerg and I'm amazed by how many free wins Terran players hand me by massing Thors. Make enough infestors to NP every single one-- that is a sad battle for the Terran player.
Ummm.. what? So you NP every single one, then wait 12 seconds, then die when they all come back under the Terran control?
once u kill all red(enemy) u can start killing ur "own" thors with target fire :p
On October 06 2010 03:52 Kage wrote: Hi Morrow if you don't mind me asking a couple of questions
-- How has playing Zerg affected your Terran play? -- Do you find any particular preference of style? -- Do you play on EU and US ? Have you found any difference?
- nothing so far, still been winning all games and its easy ride with blue flame on drones every game into thor+stuff -been playing roach+queen+infestor in zvz, roach hydra corrupter in zvp and vs terran i like roach ling infestor vs mech play and vs bio i use banes lings and mutas. once they start mix stuff then i start doing that aswell, popular style is thor+stuff where i find just massing tons and tons of stuff very good, i like roaches alot, i guess cause its very easy to macro them and r kind of newb friendly in the battle -eu only
On October 05 2010 06:45 grudgeStar wrote: "been loving the neutral parasite to counter thor so far, i dont know why zergs thing its useless"
Who said this? A bronze zerg?
everone who i talked to and pretty much all mediocre zerg gamers upwards. everyone on IEM seemed to agree that neutral parasite wasnt underused, it was just so bad that it wasnt worth getting.
It used to be, when Terran got tanks every game against everything. Now that they are a bit worse, they might actually not have anything to snipe the Infestor from across the map, meaning that it might actually survive for a part of the twelve seconds.
They are still kind of "meh" against colossi, due to their ridiculous range, though. Having the infestor die a fraction of a second after starting channeling is kind of demotivating.
yeah, the issue with the infestor was/is that the moment you cast NP, you put a huge flag on top of their head saying "shoot me!". Infestors NP only really works when they're behind such a wall that any other units can't come about and snipe it, since they're pretty fragile. Tanks obviously do great vs this, but stimmed marauders or the like also work unless the Z throws in a lot of lings.
But i think the main reason is that most zergs don't get enough infestors to NP every single thor in a larger group, which really is needed for NP to be effective (ideal would be about 2-3 more infestors than thors, since you can FG the remaining infantry to prevent infestor sniping, this is pretty micro intense though) since they're so gas heavy.
On October 06 2010 23:36 OutlaW- wrote: Baneling micro? You mean 1a and kill everything?
Posting like this is a sure way to establish yourself as genuine outlaw on this site.
Banelings require micro to set up flanks and one can even do tricksy tricks like duping players into stimming or FFing when they don't need to ... "1-right-click" is great for feints but it rarely ever goes down like that when you are going in for the kill. I would definetly 1a when I split, say, 6 banelings into two groups of three and then 1a, 2a from two sides of the mineral line.
6th October Rating: Diamond 1390 Replay pack: none gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time sry for no replay pack. will start updating this thread once im back on track with z there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
On September 30 2010 22:21 MorroW wrote: 6th October Rating: Diamond 1390 Replay pack: none gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time sry for no replay pack. will start updating this thread once im back on track with z there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
There are only 11 non-korean Zergs (and something like 20 with korea) over 2k points, compared to 28 non-korean Terrans. Not that I don't think you can make 2k+, I just think you could play tournaments much earlier than that. You may be waiting quite a while before you get 2k+ with Zerg.
On October 05 2010 06:45 grudgeStar wrote: "been loving the neutral parasite to counter thor so far, i dont know why zergs thing its useless"
Who said this? A bronze zerg?
everone who i talked to and pretty much all mediocre zerg gamers upwards. everyone on IEM seemed to agree that neutral parasite wasnt underused, it was just so bad that it wasnt worth getting. personally i feel the best way to counter the thor hellion tank play is just by roaches lings and infestors. yep, no mutalisk :p if u spread infestors well o nthe map they neglect hellion harass just as well
On October 05 2010 07:09 noD wrote: Hey morrow, awesome thread, could u put a very small description on the replays when u go saving them? thanks
wayy too much work, infact im gonna start updating this once every third day or so for bigger packs instead of updating it every day as i realized i only played 8~ games some days which is just not alot to watch )
On October 05 2010 07:04 titaniumnuts wrote: Morrow, what are your thoughts on the muta, ling baneling, composition that is found in a lot of tvz matchups, now that you've seen it from both side?
well its great vs bio play, but as soon as the terran throws in some tanks to deal with the banes i either need a more costy army or throw in infestors to beat this. but since a zerg can get 3base i still think its pretty fair game as far as early midgame goes anyway. the composition is great for nullifying the armies so its best just to use for grab many bases quickly as u will need to compensate for the gas heavy army. but later on zergs will have to mix it up ofcourse, and its not like u can muta ling baneling vs any terran army in the midgame aswell. its a nice style but zergs shouldnt feel its the only way to play at all. ive just felt so strong with roach ling infestor even vs bio
Good to see this. I have been free winning against mass thor hellion for so long with roach ling infestor and people seem to just start saying "oh well tanks can snipe them lol". Its not like infestors are bad against hellion/barracks/tanks either.
On September 30 2010 22:21 MorroW wrote: 6th October i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg.
there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
Wow, that's suprising. I like that decision, hopefully IdrA will do what he has promised when you finally will win a tournament as Zerg
Wow, a (probable) permanent switch. Not gonna lie, I was pretty skeptical that he would actually stick with it. The swarm has gained quite a skillful player in MorroW. He did leave himself some wiggle room at the end with that disclaimer though, lol.
On September 30 2010 22:21 MorroW wrote: there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
Wow, I didn't think you would ever make a full switch. Looking forward to seeing your progression in a few months.
it's interesting that you never stated any problems with the drone mechanic.. It's maybe just me but i struggle big time with it while most other things are quite easy to manage
On September 30 2010 22:21 MorroW wrote: there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
I must say it is a very daring move to switch races but I'm sure you have the dedication and skill required.
I've enjoyed watching your replay packs and only have one or two things I noted. In the day6 replay pack you have a ZvT game vs. IaV (or something like that) where you do crazy good micro of your zerglings against his reaper build and end up crushing the reapers badly.
This results in him hardly having any army and you have quite a few zerglings around 40 or so. You can't break into his main but you do let him take his expansion without using putting any pressure on him. I think you could at the minimum forced him to throw down bunkers and delayed his expansion for some time. You later loose for other reasons which you probably spotted but I thought maybe you didn't spot this.
Lastly day9 just had a newbie tuesday (featuring among others the "newbie" fruitmerchant) focusing on zerg drone production which I think was great in highlighting the importance of larva as a resource. You probably know most of the stuff but maybe there is a thing or two you could find useful.
Also I have to thank you for the thread it has helped me decide to go back to playing zerg full time. I played mainly zerg in the beta but burned out due to a misconception of lack of options. (The whole I don't have any unit combo that is just a death ball, that I think is at the core of many of the complaints about the race).
I switched to playing random and found lots of pleasure in learning all the match ups and playing cooky strategies. But then I hit a new wall where I just didn't know the timings of the match ups and I don't have the time to learn all match ups with all races.
So now I'm back with zerg and playing the macro oriented style similar to yours that I enjoy very much. Nothing is sweeter than just gathering enough momentum to squash the opponents meager army after he has tried to hit you again and again.
Awesome write-up man, as a 'less-than-stellar' Zerg player I really enjoy your replays and the thought process behind them! I'm really looking forward to more.
This news makes me so unbelievably happy. The potential for innovation here is so high.
I can't wait to see what you can do as a polished zerg MorroW. Your control as terran was so impressive...I can't wait to see the potential for that in you as a zerg user.
Sweet guess im not the only one. I've been trying to switch to Zerg because i like the fact that isnt harder.
Many people have been complaining that its too hard, but hard is fun in the long run. The reason i played Terran in BW was because it was the hardest and i wanted the satisfaction of playing and being GOOD.
Currently i feel T and P are too easy and im getting bored of playing them. People want Blizzard to make Zerg Easier.
Don't make the other races harder. Harder = more fun. Thats why BW was great.
there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
Wow, that's suprising. I like that decision, hopefully IdrA will do what he has promised when you finally will win a tournament as Zerg
there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user
Wow, that's suprising. I like that decision, hopefully IdrA will do what he has promised when you finally will win a tournament as Zerg
On October 06 2010 23:36 OutlaW- wrote: Baneling micro? You mean 1a and kill everything?
Posting like this is a sure way to establish yourself as genuine outlaw on this site.
Banelings require micro to set up flanks and one can even do tricksy tricks like duping players into stimming or FFing when they don't need to ... "1-right-click" is great for feints but it rarely ever goes down like that when you are going in for the kill. I would definetly 1a when I split, say, 6 banelings into two groups of three and then 1a, 2a from two sides of the mineral line.
On October 06 2010 23:36 OutlaW- wrote: Baneling micro? You mean 1a and kill everything?
Posting like this is a sure way to establish yourself as genuine outlaw on this site.
Banelings require micro to set up flanks and one can even do tricksy tricks like duping players into stimming or FFing when they don't need to ... "1-right-click" is great for feints but it rarely ever goes down like that when you are going in for the kill. I would definetly 1a when I split, say, 6 banelings into two groups of three and then 1a, 2a from two sides of the mineral line.
MorroW, you have gone from my most hated player to one of my favorites. I'll be rooting for you, hwaiting! Zerg takes a lot of practice, don't give up, and don't be surprised if it takes you another month or 2 to get proficient with Zerg!
MorroW FOR THE SWARM this is almost as exciting as Fruit winning GSL i'v followed you as terran but, omg will i follow you as zerg i wish you the best of luck hopefully we will have more creative zerg users like Fruit and you deff. have the potential
On October 06 2010 23:36 OutlaW- wrote: Baneling micro? You mean 1a and kill everything?
Posting like this is a sure way to establish yourself as genuine outlaw on this site.
Banelings require micro to set up flanks and one can even do tricksy tricks like duping players into stimming or FFing when they don't need to ... "1-right-click" is great for feints but it rarely ever goes down like that when you are going in for the kill. I would definetly 1a when I split, say, 6 banelings into two groups of three and then 1a, 2a from two sides of the mineral line.
On September 30 2010 22:26 imyzhang wrote: it's weird, that a lot of terrans i've run into recently have been playing as zerg in customs (including me). I think a lot of us t players are trying to understand what the fuss about terran imba is all about.
Glad to see that great players like morrow don't just only care about winning, and keeping their ladder rankings/ratings high.
Fuss about Terran imba? Do they even know that they are OP?
MorroW, you have gone from my most hated player to one of my favorites. I'll be rooting for you, hwaiting! Zerg takes a lot of practice, don't give up, and don't be surprised if it takes you another month or 2 to get proficient with Zerg!
MorroW hwaiting!
qftw!!!
Fuss about Terran imba? Do they even know that they are OP?
Cluck also known as cauthonluck has even said it in one of the state of the game podcasts. He also goes on to say that blizz won't nerf mauaders
Wooo, Morrow switches to the Light Side, (or dark side i guess depending on your perspective lol). Good luck with your new race. Hope to see you successful in some tourneys with Zerg.
great news! i've been playing random recently and im loving playing as zerg (except ZvZs). its so demanding and requires much more from myself. every victory as zerg feels more rewarding as well which is nice. good luck with your transition and i wish you the best.
just one thing, dont give up on the swarm too easily when things get tough.
Good luck with zerg morrow! I personaly am found of their potential for mobility. Make sure you employ that in your matches =P and be as creative with zerg as you were in developing your terran iron nydus network *what i call the morrow rail*. Who knows maybe you will bring your own style of tactics to zerg.
Ballsy move morrow! Especially when you're so solid with terran.
Please can you tell us what made you decide to make the change full-time rather than just using this as a learning experience? Do you enjoy zerg more, or do you feel it has more competitive potential in the long term? Or is it to prove you're good enough to play Z? ^.^
I'm glade to hear that you want to join the Swarm, MorroW. I love playing as the Zerg - they've got a very nice feel to them. It seems like there's always more things to do than with the other races. I like that dynamic. It makes my wins feel that much more rewarding.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
just briefly skimming through the past few pages i see a lot of garbage.
how many of you guys are happy morrow is switching because you want to learn from him as a zerg player and/or are happy that the swarm has another member COMPARED to just wanting idra to look bad or eat his own words.
On October 07 2010 17:25 Angelbelow wrote: just briefly skimming through the past few pages i see a lot of garbage.
how many of you guys are happy morrow is switching because you want to learn from him as a zerg player and/or are happy that the swarm has another member COMPARED to just wanting idra to look bad or eat his own words.
Can it not be both? I think this is awesome for three reasons. 1) Another good Zerg player to watch/learn from. see above. 2) Idra hopefully will get to eat his own words. (I am a fan of Idra, but can you really say this will not be hilarious?). 3) And more generally, just mad respect for switching from the "OP" race to the "UP" race for the challenge and personal satisfaction.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
I picked Terran in sc1 because people told me it was the hardes race. TvP was the hardest matchup so I played almost only tvp. Then sc2 came out and I picked Terran because I tought that it would be the hardest race. Now I get flamed because I'm a "terran-picked"...
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing.
hmmmm, i´m a bit torn. on the one hand i really respect such a decision. on the other hand zerg seems the strongest race (perhaps only a temporary occasion) rigtht now and protoss seems to fall apart more.
I must admit that i am not big morrow fan,specially he always beat up Finnish sc2 players but always awesome that big name like morrow is changing to zerg o/
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
I'm sorry but, whether or not terran is "easy" or "boring" It doesn't seem right that you keep saying you've won all these tournaments left and right saying "I never even practiced." While it may be true, you repeating yourself so many times makes it seem like you think you've reached the highest skill possible with terran. A lot of people won't buy it because this game is so new and so many insanely good players have not had their run yet (IE. GSL2). I would really like to see you dominate GSL before I accept this arrogant personality you come with. It just leaves a bad taste and I'm sure many people would agree. I don't mind arrogant people as long as I know they have a right to be.
Either way, good luck with your road to dominance with zerg.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
Thats hilarious, 1500 excess minerals on one base. Not that supprised tho, was shocked to see sjow with 80 apm aswell. And these are the people owning up go4sc2 zotac wolfcup viking cup every week.
On October 07 2010 22:59 MorroW wrote: ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing.
I think I saw the exact same game live with Darkforce commentating on it. He was quite critical of the game, constantly pointing out little flaws he saw. He said he rarely watches other races and he seemed extremely puzzled that these two were able to do that good with all these inaccuracies in their game. I think he was crying a little on the inside. :D
But to be fair he also said its always easy to find mistakes when you are not actually playing but just watching.
Terran and Protoss don't punish bad play nearly enough. It's like you can fuck up so many things so badly and it barely even matters, whereas making the same sort of mistakes with Zerg will just kill you.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
I'm sorry but, whether or not terran is "easy" or "boring" It doesn't seem right that you keep saying you've won all these tournaments left and right saying "I never even practiced." While it may be true, you repeating yourself so many times makes it seem like you think you've reached the highest skill possible with terran. A lot of people won't buy it because this game is so new and so many insanely good players have not had their run yet (IE. GSL2). I would really like to see you dominate GSL before I accept this arrogant personality you come with. It just leaves a bad taste and I'm sure many people would agree. I don't mind arrogant people as long as I know they have a right to be.
Either way, good luck with your road to dominance with zerg.
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
I'm sorry but, whether or not terran is "easy" or "boring" It doesn't seem right that you keep saying you've won all these tournaments left and right saying "I never even practiced." While it may be true, you repeating yourself so many times makes it seem like you think you've reached the highest skill possible with terran. A lot of people won't buy it because this game is so new and so many insanely good players have not had their run yet (IE. GSL2). I would really like to see you dominate GSL before I accept this arrogant personality you come with. It just leaves a bad taste and I'm sure many people would agree. I don't mind arrogant people as long as I know they have a right to be.
Either way, good luck with your road to dominance with zerg.
He's not saying he's reached the highest possible skill with Terran, he's saying that the skill he has when not practicing is sufficient enough to win those tournaments...
I think MorroW had some inside dope. He plans to switch full time to Zerg in a few weeks... which should approximately coincide with ... MASSIVE ZERG BUFFS.
Encouraging to see pro players learn from other race strats. Otherwise, you really just get the same meta game match up all the time with very little variation. Its the blending of race strats that often lead to interesting and unusual match up. GO MORROW!
On October 08 2010 01:52 DTown wrote: I think MorroW had some inside dope. He plans to switch full time to Zerg in a few weeks... which should approximately coincide with ... MASSIVE ZERG BUFFS.
Great news, comrade MorroW! Terran and Toss will learn to fear the roach! I hope these buffs will help you on your way to the top, but IdrA might claim 1.2 invalidates you proving him wrong about imbalance. Beating him in a tournament will have to suffice
Switching from T to Z right when patch is arriving, this is what we call "gosu timing".
I think MorroW is really capable of winning a tournament after the patch. His mechanics are very good from what I've seen in his TvTs. GoGo MorroW, Do it!
Forgive me I'm overlooking it but where does it say he's going zerg full time? The OP says this is for messing around on the ladder. Why is everyone acting like he's gonna compete in money games with zerg
On October 08 2010 04:49 verne wrote: Forgive me I'm overlooking it but where does it say he's going zerg full time? The OP says this is for messing around on the ladder. Why is everyone acting like he's gonna compete in money games with zerg
I think Morrow should just clear things up a bit on the OP so people don't get too confused about tournaments and such he is indeed switching full force zerg.
Any time frame as how you feel right now when we will see you playing in tourneys or atleast some show matches as Zerg?
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
I don't speak for Morrow, but reading this and other threads he has posted in I get the feeling he thought terran was too "easy" to play and that zerg offers a higher skill ceiling along with the challenge.
Intotherainbow thought Zerg and Protoss were too easy and picked Terran then.
when he picked he didn't know sc2 terran was that easy
he probably did like me to just assume terran was the hardest race in this game aswell
On October 07 2010 14:51 Penetrates wrote: If I may ask...what convinced you to make the switch? What is it that pulled the trigger?
ofcourse it was an ongoing process for weeks, months but when i saw naama vs sjow in a tvt replay in some finals where both reached 1k minerals on 1base where sjow even had half his production qued up for another 500 probably pretty much was the last drip. no offense to them obviously as ive seen toss replays over the last days where our top level tosses doing the exact same thing. then afterwards same day winning 2-1 vs sjow improvising a sort of copy of his build he beat with me last time where ive been playing zerg for a week without any terran practice what so ever. feels like iem all over again winning without putting in the hours needed to be deserved. these r the 2 terrans along with select who has been impressing me the most lately so it felt kind of like a heartbreak after watching that
I'm sorry but, whether or not terran is "easy" or "boring" It doesn't seem right that you keep saying you've won all these tournaments left and right saying "I never even practiced." While it may be true, you repeating yourself so many times makes it seem like you think you've reached the highest skill possible with terran. A lot of people won't buy it because this game is so new and so many insanely good players have not had their run yet (IE. GSL2). I would really like to see you dominate GSL before I accept this arrogant personality you come with. It just leaves a bad taste and I'm sure many people would agree. I don't mind arrogant people as long as I know they have a right to be.
Either way, good luck with your road to dominance with zerg.
He's not saying he's reached the highest possible skill with Terran, he's saying that the skill he has when not practicing is sufficient enough to win those tournaments...
Yes, that is a very direct interpretation of his words. Words also imply things also when repeated.
Forgive me I'm overlooking it but where does it say he's going zerg full time? The OP says this is for messing around on the ladder. Why is everyone acting like he's gonna compete in money games with zerg
lol imba abuser... if you switch to zerg right around when the big buff comes, everyone will just think you are playing whatever race is "best". That certainly wont help your reputation
On October 08 2010 07:10 Viruuus wrote: lol imba abuser... if you switch to zerg right around when the big buff comes, everyone will just think you are playing whatever race is "best". That certainly wont help your reputation
That's why he does it BEFORE the buffs, then when the buff does come, he will wield godly power!
I think it's great whenever anyone has the determination to switch races at a high level. Keep up the good (getting better...) work!
On October 08 2010 07:09 verne wrote: Forgive me I'm overlooking it but where does it say he's going zerg full time? The OP says this is for messing around on the ladder. Why is everyone acting like he's gonna compete in money games with zerg
reread his latest edit of the OP:
" gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time sry for no replay pack. will start updating this thread once im back on track with z there is a possibility that i decide to switch back to terran once again in the future but as it is right now im pretty convinced that i want to be a zerg user"
Good timing on the switch, buffed roach range, reaper cheese out of the game, i'm worried about playing terran with those monster roaches. I might follow Morrow's example and switch too (to protoss of course, i hate zerg).
On October 08 2010 07:35 Ganondorf wrote: Good timing on the switch, buffed roach range, reaper cheese out of the game, i'm worried about playing terran with those monster roaches. I might follow Morrow's example and switch too (to protoss of course, i hate zerg).
edit: @below: Yea, sorry. You're absolutely right, that is how threads derail. It's just that sometimes it's so hard to resist.
you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Hey Idra serious question. If your playing the game professionaly and not as much for fun, why don't you just switch to Terran. Hard to argue that Terran is probaly the best at higher level play. So just play them and make some money? I mean a business wouldn't go down the harder route just for the sake of being harder.
On October 08 2010 19:36 haffy wrote: Hey Idra serious question. If your playing the game professionaly and not as much for fun, why don't you just switch to Terran. Hard to argue that Terran is probaly the best at higher level play. So just play them and make some money? I mean a business wouldn't go down the harder route just for the sake of being harder.
he explained this so many times. Zerg fits his style, and he is not the kind of player that goes for the flavour of the month.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Yeah but you have to give him some credits for switching to zerg, play on his main account and fucked up his rating just to learn the race. We all know that play zerg at a pro lvl is not cheesy at all. So Idra plz leave your bm at home and support him for doing what he is doing. he is taking a really big risk right now and for that i'm cheering for him and hope he does well in the future.
I'm interested to see how this pans out, but idra has a good point.
If a top level zerg player switched to terran would the player drop so heavily in the ladder? I don't think so, but I guess we won't know untill someone tries it.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
One or two weeks of practicing a new race is hardly nothing. It's already common knowledge that the hard part about Zerg is surviving past the early game so he's probably dropping shit load of games because he's not familiar with how to defend against the various openings yet.
Once Zerg manages to get past the early game with a strong ECO Zerg is incredibly strong. I suspect Morrow will reach this point in the future and start to dominate.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
What's your point? That terran is easier to play? No shit sherlock.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
soon as you fix blizzard's netcode, unless he wants to play on korea
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
So falacious...
It's easily arguable that playing Z is much more tricky than playing T. So switching from T to Z is much more harder than the oposite. It doesn't mean that he isn't going to suceed in the future. You have to stop being a moron also, common, the guy is not hurting anyone, is just playing the fucking game
I don't know if morrow is switching because of the buffs in the next patch, but hell, one talented player going zerg means we're going to se some really interesting new strats developing
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
soon as you fix blizzard's netcode, unless he wants to play on korea
Ive seen this happen now with plenty of terran players. I know why some of them are doing it. And i am talking about "top players, decent players" out there switching from Terran to Zerg. I might do it aswell when time goes by, but im still going to update my terran knowledge for a while longer.
MorroW is kinda smart for doing this, he got himself a plan ;-) well, improving or starting very high level as a "newbie zerg" newbie doesnt have to mean that ur bad, just that ur a "beginner" playing zerg is kinda hard but very good because he will improve a lot faster than normal. And morrow has the dedication to improve so it wont be any hard in the future or after his "tournament". One tip Morrow start streaming ur zerg after the tournaments.
On October 08 2010 21:37 cuppatea wrote: I'd be extremely surprised if Idra's Terran (or any other good Zerg's Terran) couldn't annihilate a 1400 Zerg.
he'll need to take a lot of antidepressants before he even plays 1 game as terran.
On September 30 2010 22:21 MorroW wrote: i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg.
On September 16 2010 22:05 IdrA wrote: lol morrow wins a single prized tournament with zerg and ill never say the word balance again
Not sure MorroW will win as many tournaments, but I have to admit I'm very much looking forward to a ZvZ grudge match, especially in a prized tournament.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
soon as you fix blizzard's netcode, unless he wants to play on korea
You tease you. Just give us what we all want. This grudgematch Bo5 only needs Day9 as a caster to make it this autumns highlight!
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
A good Z is a good T and good P. You have to know their timings, tech patterns, possible army comps - everything. Zerg can't do a damn thing to force composition vs T, and not terribly much from P (hey at least mutalisks do something in that MU).
Oh and get him to play you on Korea reverse races that'd be hilarious.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
Put your money where your mouth is and TvZ him in a couple of weeks. Bo5, I'll arrange a streamer ^^
soon as you fix blizzard's netcode, unless he wants to play on korea
You tease you. Just give us what we all want. This grudgematch Bo5 only needs Day9 as a caster to make it this autumns highlight!
A grudgematch with Day9 in Outofcontrol mode casting would be so awesome. Do this!!!
Wow! IdrA (T) vs MorroW (Z). I would love to see this. Grudge match and what not aside (I don't really care about that), I think it would be a very educational match to watch.
And as much as I respect you MorroW for (1) playing Zerg on your main account whilst letting your rating tank, (2) providing such a valuable resource for lower level Zergs to learn the play better, (3) and also openly acknowledging Terran imba, as a Terran player....I have to root for IdrA.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
MorroW, I can't imagine a cooler move than switching races to Zerg, but I'm a rabid fan of IdrA trashtalk as well. I hope something more becomes of this.
As a zerg player I'm intrigued by your choice to switch from TOP Terran to Zerg, especially since you've been winning many tournaments since release. You gained lots of respect from me by doing this and I'm willing to give you any tips/practice or replays if you need further help!
Ofcourse, you know many great zergs, but being a 1750rated European Zerg practicing many hours per day and becoming better daily, we might be able to help eachother out a bit . I'm always available on TL.net or ingame between mondays-thurdays under nickname Shinigami.812
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
What is this supposed to prove? Why is being a dick to someone trying to learn to play Z productive for you?
Personally I think Idra would dodge such a match. I think he is without a doubt the better Zerg but I also think he is scared that Morrow might become better.
Well don't see the point of insulting another player that much. Morrow could be a 300 points diamond player and I'd still appreciate his effort.
Morrow I wish you all the best and I'm sure you will get better soon with that race you have chosen.
Idra I wish you better luck with GSL 2 maybe that will calm you down a little and boost your self - confidence so that you don't need to BM other players who are trying new ways.
On October 09 2010 11:55 CallmeMuppet wrote: Personally I think Idra would dodge such a match. I think he is without a doubt the better Zerg but I also think he is scared that Morrow might become better.
Well don't see the point of insulting another player that much. Morrow could be a 300 points diamond player and I'd still appreciate his effort.
Morrow I wish you all the best and I'm sure you will get better soon with that race you have chosen.
Idra I wish you better luck with GSL 2 maybe that will calm you down a little and boost your self - confidence so that you don't need to BM other players who are trying new ways.
If there's money on the line I highly highly doubt idra will dodge.
Morrow was a pretty good terran, sure. But to think that he will excel at the level of Idra, or the Korean zergs which are even better is ridiculous. You don't plunge that low on ladder, 1390 points, even after recently learning the race if you're halfway decent.
Morrow won't stand a chance against Idra in a grudge match, even with months of practice.
On October 09 2010 18:20 Angry_Fetus wrote: Morrow was a pretty good terran, sure. But to think that he will excel at the level of Idra, or the Korean zergs which are even better is ridiculous. You don't plunge that low on ladder, 1390 points, even after recently learning the race if you're halfway decent.
Morrow won't stand a chance against Idra in a grudge match, even with months of practice.
You should watch how MorroW owns other terrans like SeleCT, qxc, drewbie... He is really on another level. Maybe not same as IdrA but he is definitely better than you have described.
that would be boring. idra would crush morrow. if not because of imbalance, then because idra has probably played a lot more games of terran than morrow has played of zerg. (in the state of the game podcast two weeks ago he said that he was unsure which race to play, which probably means that he's still practicing with terran from time to time).
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
Il pitch on that bowl
seriously though this needs to happen
I'd pitch in too.
On October 09 2010 21:06 heishe wrote: that would be boring. idra would crush morrow. if not because of imbalance, then because idra has probably played a lot more games of terran than morrow has played of zerg. (in the state of the game podcast two weeks ago he said that he was unsure which race to play, which probably means that he's still practicing with terran from time to time).
IdrA said that if he switched it would be to protoss, not terran.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
For the sake of the pride of logic reasoning the possible explainations are:
1. Morrow is not able to be a good zerg player (which seems to be your choice) 2. Morrow has the ability to become a good zerg player but he needs more time than others to get good at it (at least your expectation of the time the "others" need) 3. Zerg is a harder race to master than terran (which I think is actually a point made by Morrow himself). 4. Mix of 2 and 3
I am not a Morrow fan, by the way, I actually watched the GSL just to see yours and TLO's games (and Fruit after he was the only Z left), but I just hate when someone's analytical skills fail to properly analyze a situation.
TL;DR version: are you not being a little fast at dismissing Morrow as a fail Z player?
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
TL;DR version: are you not being a little fast at dismissing Morrow as a fail Z player?
no he is not being a little fast at dsmissing morrow as a fail z player, infact he is not dismissing the fact that morrow is a fail zerg player at all.
Idra's comments about Morrow are reminiscent of his views on Nony and Ret back in the day. Now he disingenously props them up to his level in order to discredit/slander Morrow. Obviously, Morrow needs to beat him a few more times before Idra moves on to the next up and comer (to put them down). It's sad really.
On October 08 2010 19:33 IdrA wrote: you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right? good z's play tvz games for fun once in a while and beat other top z's.
TL;DR version: are you not being a little fast at dismissing Morrow as a fail Z player?
no he is not being a little fast at dsmissing morrow as a fail z player, infact he is not dismissing the fact that morrow is a fail zerg player at all.
I am not sure about what you meant. But my guess is that you meant "...infact he is not dismissing morrow as a fail zerg player at all" (adding "the fact" you made that the subject and essentially your phrase had the same meaning as the sentence you wrote right before that). - I am no trying to be a grammar nazi or similar, I honestly am not sure what you meant, altough I'd say my guess is right with 99% probability -
In the case I correctly understood, then I would suggest you to reread what IdrA wrote. The first sentence alone defenetly can have many implications, but when you read the second one too, the only one really left is essentially point 1 of my previous post. Altough he could have just expressed his thoughts in a misleading way... but for many reasons I do not think IdrA failed at express what he really meant.
On October 10 2010 02:27 bLuR wrote: Remember when MorroW beat IdrA in the finals at IEM? Good Times! Still an IdrA fan though
How can we forget? Idra reminds us all the time. Idra's so butt-hurt about it, he follows Morrow around and constantly harasses him on the forums. He's threatened by a guy who isn't a fulltime pro and doesn't practice dozens of hours a day. Why? Well, what if Morrow actually gets good with zerg putting in 1/4 of the hours Idra does? Gonna make him look pretty stupid...
I switched from toss to zerg recently and I can't decide which I like better. I think zerg is harder but more rewarding when you win games. Plus being macro intensive and forcing yourself to play faster seems to come with zerg, which feels good. But, keep it up MorroW, glad you're trying new things. GL HF
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
IdrA said that if he switched it would be to protoss, not terran.
Idra isn't attacking Morrow, he is pointing out that zerg is just so much harder that you can't switch from the other races to it and be competitive with your same skill set. This is in line with Morrow saying that he is playing zerg because it is so much harder.
On October 10 2010 07:49 rastaban wrote: Idra isn't attacking Morrow, he is pointing out that zerg is just so much harder that you can't switch from the other races to it and be competitive with your same skill set. This is in line with Morrow saying that he is playing zerg because it is so much harder.
What IdrA wrote may indeed mean that. BUT, the way he wrote it hint at different interpretation:
"you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right?"
"still" implies that 1400 is failing at playing (of course it could instead imply that Morrow is failing at getting better) Then follows a time statement, which can serve no point other than showing an expectation that, by that time, someone should be able to do better (otherwise it is just a statement that gives an information which serves no purpose - aka fail at communication because it become a misleading information).
Thus, as I already wrote, what you said IS a possible interpretation, and is probably IdrA's opinion about the Z vs other races playing difficulty, BUT the "attack" interpretation is very possible too ("still failing") and is a more direct interpretation of what he wrote.
Considering the background of IdrA vs Morrowit kind of seems the most likely one. Also, there are many other possible ways to write what you say IdrA meant, and amongst them IdrA chose one which is much more easyly read as an attack. Maybe he was indeed attacking Morrow? And if he wasn't he defenetly is really bad with words and does not choose them very carefully. And I won't even start trying to think about his subconscious coming out in those words, as another possible way to try to understand the precise choice of words.
I can't believe you guys are parsing his statements so carefully. Really? It's not completely apparent to you what he means? Really? He's not doing physics here. The way he posts is no matter tactful or subtle than 99% of the population. His rage statements are similar to the ones you've heard multiple times when you beat someone online. Look at his post history when talking about Morrow. Look at their replays. It's clear as day what he means to anyone but his fanboys. He's attacked Morrow multiple times already. What makes his last 2 statements different?
On October 10 2010 07:49 rastaban wrote: Idra isn't attacking Morrow, he is pointing out that zerg is just so much harder that you can't switch from the other races to it and be competitive with your same skill set. This is in line with Morrow saying that he is playing zerg because it is so much harder.
On October 09 2010 01:44 SpaceYeti wrote: Wow! IdrA (T) vs MorroW (Z). I would love to see this. Grudge match and what not aside (I don't really care about that), I think it would be a very educational match to watch.
And as much as I respect you MorroW for (1) playing Zerg on your main account whilst letting your rating tank, (2) providing such a valuable resource for lower level Zergs to learn the play better, (3) and also openly acknowledging Terran imba, as a Terran player....I have to root for IdrA.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
heh i saw couple of people also wating to "pay'' for a show match
i can throw 10$
if there is more people lets send the cash for one of the TL staff and lets do it :D
On October 10 2010 07:49 rastaban wrote: Idra isn't attacking Morrow, he is pointing out that zerg is just so much harder that you can't switch from the other races to it and be competitive with your same skill set. This is in line with Morrow saying that he is playing zerg because it is so much harder.
What IdrA wrote may indeed mean that. BUT, the way he wrote it hint at different interpretation:
"you people realize hes a 1400 zerg on europe, and still falling, after more than a week of practice, right?"
"still" implies that 1400 is failing at playing (of course it could instead imply that Morrow is failing at getting better) Then follows a time statement, which can serve no point other than showing an expectation that, by that time, someone should be able to do better (otherwise it is just a statement that gives an information which serves no purpose - aka fail at communication because it become a misleading information).
Thus, as I already wrote, what you said IS a possible interpretation, and is probably IdrA's opinion about the Z vs other races playing difficulty, BUT the "attack" interpretation is very possible too ("still failing") and is a more direct interpretation of what he wrote.
Considering the background of IdrA vs Morrowit kind of seems the most likely one. Also, there are many other possible ways to write what you say IdrA meant, and amongst them IdrA chose one which is much more easyly read as an attack. Maybe he was indeed attacking Morrow? And if he wasn't he defenetly is really bad with words and does not choose them very carefully. And I won't even start trying to think about his subconscious coming out in those words, as another possible way to try to understand the precise choice of words.
On October 10 2010 10:07 Xax wrote: it's so funny how idra is complaining about the netcode but cellawerra is the #1 zerg on the NA server....
well, so what? cella plays a ton of games and alot of Z's on NA don't ladder like crazy or don't play that well. it's not difficult to become #1 zerg on NA compared to korea SEA europe. cella also plays lower quality opponents than morrow, and so latency issues are not as big of a deal, also idras internet may not be up to snuff compared to cellas there are alot of reasons for the shitty latency that Bnet gives.
EDIT: just because cella is used to bad latency doesn't mean idra is.
On October 10 2010 10:07 Xax wrote: it's so funny how idra is complaining about the netcode but cellawerra is the #1 zerg on the NA server....
well, so what? cella plays a ton of games and alot of Z's on NA don't ladder like crazy or don't play that well. it's not difficult to become #1 zerg on NA compared to korea SEA europe. cella also plays lower quality opponents than morrow, and so latency issues are not as big of a deal, also idras internet may not be up to snuff compared to cellas there are alot of reasons for the shitty latency that Bnet gives.
EDIT: just because cella is used to bad latency doesn't mean idra is.
That is a good point. IdrA has a BW background where he is used to lag latency, in other words, no lag at all. However, Cella has a WC3 background, irrc, so micro should be his strong suit, and theoretically, lag would effect him more than the macro IdrA.
MorroW has given up. Look at his match history. He's only playing Terran because he knew that switching to Zerg would destroy his career. I'm glad he's finally come around and realised it now.
On October 10 2010 23:50 Fantistic wrote: MorroW has given up. Look at his match history. He's only playing Terran because he knew that switching to Zerg would destroy his career. I'm glad he's finally come around and realised it now.
go troll somewhere else, he wrote in last update: "gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time"
On October 10 2010 23:50 Fantistic wrote: MorroW has given up. Look at his match history. He's only playing Terran because he knew that switching to Zerg would destroy his career. I'm glad he's finally come around and realised it now.
On October 10 2010 23:50 Fantistic wrote: MorroW has given up. Look at his match history. He's only playing Terran because he knew that switching to Zerg would destroy his career. I'm glad he's finally come around and realised it now.
No.
6th October gonna play terran fulltime for 1-3 weeks to wrap up my last going tournaments with hopefully nice results. i have decided to switch to zerg so i will stop sign up for new tournaments until i am at least 2k rating with zerg. once i finish these ongoing tournaments i will start practice zerg with all my practice time
On October 09 2010 01:44 SpaceYeti wrote: Wow! IdrA (T) vs MorroW (Z). I would love to see this. Grudge match and what not aside (I don't really care about that), I think it would be a very educational match to watch.
And as much as I respect you MorroW for (1) playing Zerg on your main account whilst letting your rating tank, (2) providing such a valuable resource for lower level Zergs to learn the play better, (3) and also openly acknowledging Terran imba, as a Terran player....I have to root for IdrA.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
heh i saw couple of people also wating to "pay'' for a show match
i can throw 10$
if there is more people lets send the cash for one of the TL staff and lets do it :D
olny IF idra and morrow respond
Will u play this kind of game ?
T(idra) Z(marrow)
IdrA's not a circus animal. He has better things to do than to play every grudge match that the community wants.
On October 09 2010 01:44 SpaceYeti wrote: Wow! IdrA (T) vs MorroW (Z). I would love to see this. Grudge match and what not aside (I don't really care about that), I think it would be a very educational match to watch.
And as much as I respect you MorroW for (1) playing Zerg on your main account whilst letting your rating tank, (2) providing such a valuable resource for lower level Zergs to learn the play better, (3) and also openly acknowledging Terran imba, as a Terran player....I have to root for IdrA.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
heh i saw couple of people also wating to "pay'' for a show match
i can throw 10$
if there is more people lets send the cash for one of the TL staff and lets do it :D
olny IF idra and morrow respond
Will u play this kind of game ?
T(idra) Z(marrow)
IdrA's not a circus animal. He has better things to do than to play every grudge match that the community wants.
What do you mean by circus animal? Getting payed to play is essentially what a pro gamer is. If the crowd and community really wants to see a certain match between two players, and are willing to pay for it I see no reason for them to not do it.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
IdrA said that if he switched it would be to protoss, not terran.
On October 09 2010 01:44 SpaceYeti wrote: Wow! IdrA (T) vs MorroW (Z). I would love to see this. Grudge match and what not aside (I don't really care about that), I think it would be a very educational match to watch.
And as much as I respect you MorroW for (1) playing Zerg on your main account whilst letting your rating tank, (2) providing such a valuable resource for lower level Zergs to learn the play better, (3) and also openly acknowledging Terran imba, as a Terran player....I have to root for IdrA.
EDIT: I'll forgo lunch one day and contribute 5$ to this match (I know, tons of $$$$$). If enough people contribute, it could make this pretty interesting. xD
heh i saw couple of people also wating to "pay'' for a show match
i can throw 10$
if there is more people lets send the cash for one of the TL staff and lets do it :D
olny IF idra and morrow respond
Will u play this kind of game ?
T(idra) Z(marrow)
IdrA's not a circus animal. He has better things to do than to play every grudge match that the community wants.
I guess you understimed how sexy money is to a pro gamer, especialy to a western one. And if he has the time and willingness to play Naniwa for 100$ in a best of 7, there is something to do for sure about a match with MorroW. Either way, their roads will cross sometime in 2011. MorroW announced the switch to Zerg, and since he loves it complicated, I am sure, he will do good with appropriate practicing and when he will be back on the top, IdrA will wait for him. Outcome? Unclear. Though to me personaly the match hasn't any appeal. I prefer to watch the GSL Seasons and put my 20$/month there. I didn't liked IdrA, but he seems to have calmed down, qq's less and he provides good status analysis here and there with his obvious deep understanding of the game. And since I saw the interview with Artosis (IdrA Answers! part 1 of 3, and his statement about Naniwa (5:28 onwards) I really begun to like him . Nevertheless, once again, I would prefer to watch them both playing the GSL. The same way the Zerg race needs more good players, the GSL needs more western players, and IdrA and MorroW are some of the guys that can give us hope into the viability of the western culture.
So, did I managed to be ? Master MorroW, we are waiting for you!
I judged from the title that this was a topic about how ridiculous it is that a larva so small can turn into a ultralisk so big. But i guess i was wrong Or maybe i wasn't? Metaforical speak that is of course ^^
Anyways big love MorroW, May you skill only increase while learning to master the ways of the swarm.
On October 13 2010 09:10 HowardRoark wrote: What is the news? He is soon at 1900 points again, did he switch back or are these points coming from the swarm?
Oh yes Morrow you kinky one, switching to the masochist race! Joke aside I'll be watching your replay packs and reading you. As a some old useless C- zerg from bw I'm stuck up on the way the Z's have to play on sc2, this will be like guidance to strip apart my beloved zerg skin and be reborn anew \o/
I'm just too stubborn and clueless right now. A terran user becoming infected, joining us for the Swarm! Come, save your new brethren and help us assimilate the others!
I just casted one of Morrow's replays he was so kind to provide us. Looks like he's getting the hang of this zerg thing from what I can tell.
This is just a ladder match of course, but I think it's fun to see pro players playing different races than they have in the past. It seems like you can always see a little bit of the style the had with their other race coming through.
(If you like cast you might like the other stuff I've casted so please check them out!)
Do you guys remember that Idra was a Terran Player on BW? He played it for years, while the units are slightly different, I'm sure he could switch really easily to Terran.
Morrow will need to practice a lot with zerg in order to become as proficient as Idra can be with terran.
I think its cool you are trying out Zerg but hope you stick with Terran in the long run as you are really good with them and have an interesting style to watch.
how do you do this. I am playing zerg since beta I am still 1400 -_-. am I stupid? do I have to be born with this talent? because if so, I will quit this obviously I don't have it in me.
I am practicing as hard as I can, and you are above 2000+ as zerg in few weeks. any tips? I am still losing to protoss phoenix build, terran early marine marauder tank push, mass thor. I still couldnt find the timing for droning. I either overdrone or underdrone... pffft.
Don't take it negative way I am happy for you but seeing you 2000+ as zerg just frustrates me T_T
On October 28 2010 10:35 Borked wrote: how do you do this. I am playing zerg since beta I am still 1400 -_-. am I stupid? do I have to be born with this talent? because if so, I will quit this obviously I don't have it in me.
I am practicing as hard as I can, and you are above 2000+ as zerg in few weeks. any tips? I am still losing to protoss phoenix build, terran early marine marauder tank push, mass thor. I still couldnt find the timing for droning. I either overdrone or underdrone... pffft.
Don't take it negative way I am happy for you but seeing you 2000+ as zerg just frustrates me T_T
I think he pumped his rating back up with terran somone said.
On October 28 2010 10:35 Borked wrote: how do you do this. I am playing zerg since beta I am still 1400 -_-. am I stupid? do I have to be born with this talent? because if so, I will quit this obviously I don't have it in me.
I am practicing as hard as I can, and you are above 2000+ as zerg in few weeks. any tips? I am still losing to protoss phoenix build, terran early marine marauder tank push, mass thor. I still couldnt find the timing for droning. I either overdrone or underdrone... pffft.
Don't take it negative way I am happy for you but seeing you 2000+ as zerg just frustrates me T_T
Morrow was a pro at terran before zerg. It isn't like he starts with 0 skill at starcraft when he switches races. His high apm and tactics carry over.
On October 28 2010 10:35 Borked wrote: how do you do this. I am playing zerg since beta I am still 1400 -_-. am I stupid? do I have to be born with this talent? because if so, I will quit this obviously I don't have it in me.
I am practicing as hard as I can, and you are above 2000+ as zerg in few weeks. any tips? I am still losing to protoss phoenix build, terran early marine marauder tank push, mass thor. I still couldnt find the timing for droning. I either overdrone or underdrone... pffft.
Don't take it negative way I am happy for you but seeing you 2000+ as zerg just frustrates me T_T
I think he pumped his rating back up with terran somone said.
Yeah during the 1390~irrelevant period he got his points back above 2000. I must assume this was with Terran otherwise why call it irrelevant? I don't know when he started laddering with zerg again but if he keeps above 2000, i'd be very impressed.
On October 28 2010 10:38 nihoh wrote: I think it would be more impressive if Morrow stayed with Terran and beat Idra with it next time they face off.
After seeing the stats from GSL it is almost so I have to agree. Would also like too see how one of the best Terrans handle zerg now (im not saying zerg is op just that i have no clue of how to deal with them and would like to copy anything that works)
Hey MorroW, pay attention on your harvesters sometimes. Think it was at the Germany vs Sweden Clanwar. You played against Socke on Xel ( am I right?! ) and you had about 92 harvesters and you still produced more and more. Think this is a little bit to much for a Zerg player. You should have stopped producing harvesters at about 75 or 80. You wouldn't be able to kill a 200 supply Protoss army with your 200 supply Zerg army, cause the Protoss fight supply was much bigger than yours. I do not want to criticize you,it's just a tip and what i noticed
So how is Zerg treating you Mr.Morrow? I heard that Protoss needs a hero badly, maybe after you mastered zerg, you can try protoss out? Going random in tournaments and let Idra rage some more on you.
He is at 2700 now so guess the larva to ultra transformation is kinda done (was fun to follow him learn zerg) Wish him all luck in dreamhack and hope he wins :D
I doubt IdrA will actually be at Dreamhack. His attendance has always been conditional on not being tied up with GSL3. Having successfully qualified, his first match is scheduled for Nov. 25. That's the first day as Dreamhack.
Idra did get an invite to dreamhack which he accepted, but due to the GSL schedule he was unable to leave Korea to participate in dreamhack. As the previous poster stated this is explained in the latest state of the game podcast. (I think 21st or 23rd of November one).
On December 13 2010 01:05 Sqq wrote: As ret said "He just revolutionized zerg" in the 2nd game vs Strelok
What an awesome game, he sure won me over :D
Where did ret say that? Got URL? Would be great to read.
idk where he read that but @retje85 did tweet "I take my hat off to you, Morrow, for showing me how to win ZvT on steppes " yesterday during the TL open.
Don't know, that game was pretty "bad" as well. I have immense problems watching something else than GSL. I don't know, maybe it is because Tastosis, maybe it is because the difference in skill. But if you watch Morrow play... So slow, and cautious. Don't get me wrong, Morrow played ok, given the fact that his opponent was so "bad". (But wtf was he doing with those infestors) And I don't dare to say that Strelok sucked. But sometimes I have this feeling when I see foreigner tournaments that I could be just as good as they are. If I would play 8 hours SCII a day, because atm I don't play more than 10 hours SCII a week. But seriously, except from some platinum level drops I was not impressed.
GSL is just more entertaining. Even with all the cheese and allins. It is faster. I love Tastosis. I don't know. Somewhere in the middle of GSL 2 I couldn't watch foreigner tournaments. At least not every match.
But on the other hand, I do love to watch Husky from time to time.
Is morrow still playing zerg? I saw a recent replay of him playing protoss and vs a zerg and complaining that Zerg roaches were overpowered after losing.
On December 22 2010 09:08 ArmorPierce wrote: Is morrow still playing zerg? I saw a recent replay of him playing protoss and vs a zerg and complaining that Zerg roaches were overpowered after losing.
Yeah because god forbid players do stuff for fun and then joke about it. I mean where would SC2 be if all players would act like this. No sponsor will ever want an SC2 tournament. If we want this to be considered a real sport people need to start acting professional.
Here is my solution: Let's never listen to State of the Game podcast again so that it dies and take MorroWs stream off teamliquid. Preferably do not let him play in tournaments and make sure no casters ever mention him. That way we can prove to all companies out there who are just waiting to throw their money at this game that it is a highly professional community.
Come to think of it Cella shouldn't be allowed to stream either since he drank alcohol on his stream when there might be underage children watching. Highly unprofessional. Furthermore anyone who was present at the party that was casted on Live on Three with DjWheat after MLG Dallas should suffer the same fate as morrow and Cella. Since the hosts were responsible they, of course, would need to be punished harded. I propose burning them like witches or pummeling them to death with rocks. After that no one would ever dare to joke about SC2.
Hey Morrow, any chance of releasing a new replay pack now that you're a total zerg boss? I'm sure some of us larva (even master-league larva) would really appreciate it.
Morrow's current win percentage is about 55.7%, and he has massed something like 2300 games. His win percentage was way way higher when he was terran, so his zerg record is actually worse than 55.7%. Morrow isn't doing bad as zerg, but he was effortlessly dominating with terran.
I think the top tier has just gotten more competitive, and that's besides the fact that when Morrow was playing Terran he was able to get free wins in basically 1/3 of his games using a strategy that was been patched. In short, I think Morrow is a better zerg than he ever was a Terran - and I mean that as a huge compliment.
On February 04 2011 04:06 gogogadgetflow wrote: I think the top tier has just gotten more competitive, and that's besides the fact that when Morrow was playing Terran he was able to get free wins in basically 1/3 of his games using a strategy that was been patched. In short, I think Morrow is a better zerg than he ever was a Terran - and I mean that as a huge compliment.
Well, to be fair I think he would be a much better terran today as well if he had kept playing that race.
On February 10 2011 16:21 suejak wrote: We REALLY need to hold Idra to his promise to quit whining if Morrow ever won anything as zerg.
MorroW is a really good zerg now. As soon as he bags his first big #1 tourney win, we really have to hold IdrA's feet to the fire.
I didn't hear IdrAs exact quote. However its taken Morrow a significant amount of time and practice to get to the level of Zerg play he needs to win a big tournament.
While Morrow deserves great props. I think IdrA's point was made.
On February 10 2011 16:21 suejak wrote: We REALLY need to hold Idra to his promise to quit whining if Morrow ever won anything as zerg.
MorroW is a really good zerg now. As soon as he bags his first big #1 tourney win, we really have to hold IdrA's feet to the fire.
I didn't hear IdrAs exact quote. However its taken Morrow a significant amount of time and practice to get to the level of Zerg play he needs to win a big tournament.
While Morrow deserves great props. I think IdrA's point was made.
On February 10 2011 16:21 suejak wrote: We REALLY need to hold Idra to his promise to quit whining if Morrow ever won anything as zerg.
MorroW is a really good zerg now. As soon as he bags his first big #1 tourney win, we really have to hold IdrA's feet to the fire.
I didn't hear IdrAs exact quote. However its taken Morrow a significant amount of time and practice to get to the level of Zerg play he needs to win a big tournament.
While Morrow deserves great props. I think IdrA's point was made.
idra said that morrow couldn't win anything at all as zerg because he's one of those disgusting T's who only won due to a massive imbalance.
no, his point wasn't made, morrow is fantastic as zerg.
On February 10 2011 16:21 suejak wrote: We REALLY need to hold Idra to his promise to quit whining if Morrow ever won anything as zerg.
MorroW is a really good zerg now. As soon as he bags his first big #1 tourney win, we really have to hold IdrA's feet to the fire.
I didn't hear IdrAs exact quote. However its taken Morrow a significant amount of time and practice to get to the level of Zerg play he needs to win a big tournament.
While Morrow deserves great props. I think IdrA's point was made.
It hasn't taken MorroW very long when you look at the bigger picture. He has been doing really good with zerg for some time now and has been doing well in tourneys with Zerg... Just because he hasn't won a major LAN yet with zerg means IdrA has a point? Not at all.
I don't think IdrA's won a major tournament since MorroW switched either.
go go morrow save us from the zerg tear machine =P. Morrow is the new zerg unit coming in the swarm patch. From Larva.....to Ultralisk.....to Morrowlisk.
Edit: LOL AT FAINT. Idra whines more now than pre- 4 range patch.
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
Ya I think it kind of depends how you interpret it. If you take as IdrA saying MorroW is a noob who just isn't good in general (which that very well may be what he was saying) then I would disagree and say IdrA should eat his words, but if IdrA was basically saying that Terran had a significant edge causing many terran players to appear to be better than I would have to agree.
Either way, was MorroW really that impressive before? It seems like he has simply improved since then, and maybe he was much better than he deserved credit for because of the imbalance that has since been changed.
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
idra said that after the 4 range buff iirc, and before building HP buff/medivac speed nerf. edit : unless you're talking about the gold league quote =)
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
idra said that after the 4 range buff iirc, and before building HP buff/medivac speed nerf.
Hell 5-Rax Reaper still existed when he said that.
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
idra said that after the 4 range buff iirc, and before building HP buff/medivac speed nerf.
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
lol fa1nt seems to be the only one defending idra on both TL and reddit
if someone makes a retarded statement like idra did regarding morrow's future success he deserves to be taken seriously & ridiculed for it
"youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke. "
..now, i dont think he was serious, greg likes his bad boy image and probably its good when it comes to attracting sponsors and fans so you cant really blame him, but still its important to note that its not a valid post
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
you think zerg is in a much better state at the moment compared to the time of the quote? sure, roaches are better, but a lot of other changes have also been made and new tactics discovered, if you compare tournament results zerg are making almost worse these days compared to back then
On February 13 2011 04:13 Fa1nT wrote: Zerg has been buffed and terran/protoss nerfed significantly since IdrA said that, it no longer pertains to anything.
Unless you think MorroW would win with 3 range roaches..
Ya I think it kind of depends how you interpret it. If you take as IdrA saying MorroW is a noob who just isn't good in general (which that very well may be what he was saying) then I would disagree and say IdrA should eat his words, but if IdrA was basically saying that Terran had a significant edge causing many terran players to appear to be better than I would have to agree.
Either way, was MorroW really that impressive before? It seems like he has simply improved since then, and maybe he was much better than he deserved credit for because of the imbalance that has since been changed.
I don't get this. Maybe I'm a biased swede but I felt like he was deservingly praised as the player he was. You could argue that he got more credit because of imbalance but that still doesn't change the fact that he had a really good macro game (imo) when he played those kind of games and basically raped europen top terrans constantly. I would still like to hear an explanation from the people that said he was a player simple abuser how he could be so successful in TvT.
idras point was made. Or why is morrow nowadays complaining about maps in a big interview? Back in the days when reaper bullshit was viable he never complained about maps or anything. And if he is able to win something with his Zerg in like 2 months its not the same as winning when Idras statement was made. Since there were 2 patches inbetween - some changes might seem little but help Zerg incredible much to not die to bullshit such as the repair nerf. A good executed thor rush seemed to be unstopable
Keep in mind people, that Zerg has received numerous buff's since Idra made that statement. Zerg is nothing like it was in 1.0, and its actually amazing any zergs won anything in 1.0
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
On February 13 2011 04:27 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Keep in mind people, that Zerg has received numerous buff's since Idra made that statement. Zerg is nothing like it was in 1.0, and its actually amazing any zergs won anything in 1.0
You also forgetting the numerous nerf to terran: Tank dmg, reaper, bunker build time, depot before rax, drop ship speed, etc etc BUT we all are taking away credit away from morrow who is an A+ RTS player. so stop beating on the dead horse!
I am amazed at so many Europeans, including morrow can play sc2 on 4:3 resolution, they are missing half of the screen!!!
idra's a popular bm player. gotta give morrow credit for making it this far and doing and exceeding the gracken's expectations.. im a big idra fan because its just interesting to have personalities like him but at the same time i dont take what he says in rage moments seriously and i credit the face that he does have more game knowledge than what... 95%(i just made this figure up teehee) of TL/players out there.. his comment about morrow not getting out of gold is obviously exaggerated and i dont get what all the hate is about. i think you gotta take it wit ha grain of salt when idra says something as wierd as that. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
No IdrA questioned MorroW's skill.
He said playing terran was artifically inflating Morrows win percentage making him look much more skilled then he was and comparing how Morrow was doing preswitch and how Morrow has done post switch (even recently) and the fact the Morrow himself has stated that as Zerg some games you just autolose due to where you spawn it would seem he was right.
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
No IdrA questioned MorroW's skill.
He said playing terran was artifically inflating Morrows win percentage making him look much more skilled then he was and comparing how Morrow was doing preswitch and how Morrow has done post switch (even recently) and the fact the Morrow himself has stated that as Zerg some games you just autolose due to where you spawn it would seem he was right.
Doesn't matter - he said MorroW would be gold league even if he was playing Zerg since the beta. So him now calling MorroW one of the best non-korean zergs shows IdrA already conceded.
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
No IdrA questioned MorroW's skill.
He said playing terran was artifically inflating Morrows win percentage making him look much more skilled then he was and comparing how Morrow was doing preswitch and how Morrow has done post switch (even recently) and the fact the Morrow himself has stated that as Zerg some games you just autolose due to where you spawn it would seem he was right.
Doesn't matter - he said MorroW would be gold league even if he was playing Zerg since the beta. So him now calling MorroW one of the best non-korean zergs shows IdrA already conceded.
Not at all. If anything it has somewhat solidified IdrA's original point, which you're glazing over and instead focusing on quoting and misinterpreting a select portion of it. He did not say Morrow would remain a terrible zerg for all time, but stated at the time he'd still be gold (obviously an exaggeration, but unprovable either way). The fact that Morrow went from doing well consistently at the time to not having won anything big since is exactly what IdrA was getting at.
Saying IdrA has "conceded" would imply he was proven wrong... which he couldn't be (since one was speculation), he hasn't been (since Morrow hasn't won YET), and wouldn't matter if he does win (the changes since would have altered the comment and the time it has taken would prove the point).
All that being said, IdrA has since said (as in the post you quoted) that Morrow is a good player. His abilities have also been shown in other tournaments (even if not winning them), so I don't think anybody doubts Morrow's ability. The underlying theme in all of IdrA's posts was that Zerg is UP (especially at the time) and the Terran at the time had been winning tournaments based more on balance than on ability. He might have taken a shot at Morrow in the process too, but don't only read that and ignore the rest of the message.
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
No IdrA questioned MorroW's skill.
He said playing terran was artifically inflating Morrows win percentage making him look much more skilled then he was and comparing how Morrow was doing preswitch and how Morrow has done post switch (even recently) and the fact the Morrow himself has stated that as Zerg some games you just autolose due to where you spawn it would seem he was right.
Doesn't matter - he said MorroW would be gold league even if he was playing Zerg since the beta. So him now calling MorroW one of the best non-korean zergs shows IdrA already conceded.
Not at all. If anything it has somewhat solidified IdrA's original point, which you're glazing over and instead focusing on quoting and misinterpreting a select portion of it. He did not say Morrow would remain a terrible zerg for all time, but stated at the time he'd still be gold (obviously an exaggeration, but unprovable either way). The fact that Morrow went from doing well consistently at the time to not having won anything big since is exactly what IdrA was getting at.
Saying IdrA has "conceded" would imply he was proven wrong... which he couldn't be (since one was speculation), he hasn't been (since Morrow hasn't won YET), and wouldn't matter if he does win (the changes since would have altered the comment and the time it has taken would prove the point).
All that being said, IdrA has since said (as in the post you quoted) that Morrow is a good player. His abilities have also been shown in other tournaments (even if not winning them), so I don't think anybody doubts Morrow's ability. The underlying theme in all of IdrA's posts was that Zerg is UP (especially at the time) and the Terran at the time had been winning tournaments based more on balance than on ability. He might have taken a shot at Morrow in the process too, but don't only read that and ignore the rest of the message.
I like how you expect someone to win big money tournaments without having ever played a race before. Up to the point of not even knowing what their key bindings are. Very valid assumption of you..........right.
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
No IdrA questioned MorroW's skill.
He said playing terran was artifically inflating Morrows win percentage making him look much more skilled then he was and comparing how Morrow was doing preswitch and how Morrow has done post switch (even recently) and the fact the Morrow himself has stated that as Zerg some games you just autolose due to where you spawn it would seem he was right.
Doesn't matter - he said MorroW would be gold league even if he was playing Zerg since the beta. So him now calling MorroW one of the best non-korean zergs shows IdrA already conceded.
Not at all. If anything it has somewhat solidified IdrA's original point, which you're glazing over and instead focusing on quoting and misinterpreting a select portion of it. He did not say Morrow would remain a terrible zerg for all time, but stated at the time he'd still be gold (obviously an exaggeration, but unprovable either way). The fact that Morrow went from doing well consistently at the time to not having won anything big since is exactly what IdrA was getting at.
Saying IdrA has "conceded" would imply he was proven wrong... which he couldn't be (since one was speculation), he hasn't been (since Morrow hasn't won YET), and wouldn't matter if he does win (the changes since would have altered the comment and the time it has taken would prove the point).
All that being said, IdrA has since said (as in the post you quoted) that Morrow is a good player. His abilities have also been shown in other tournaments (even if not winning them), so I don't think anybody doubts Morrow's ability. The underlying theme in all of IdrA's posts was that Zerg is UP (especially at the time) and the Terran at the time had been winning tournaments based more on balance than on ability. He might have taken a shot at Morrow in the process too, but don't only read that and ignore the rest of the message.
I like how you expect someone to win big money tournaments without having ever played a race before. Up to the point of not even knowing what their key bindings are. Very valid assumption of you..........right.
What the shit are you smoking? Where in my post did I say, suggest, or imply that I expected Morrow, or anybody, to switch races and immediately win tournaments? + Show Spoiler +
Better luck next time though Morrow, still one of the best zergs in Europe and losing to Ret is no shame, obv.
Morrow is unbelievable good at sc2. totally beat some ppl who just sit and shit and crying for imbalance. BTW, looking back, blizz made a very bad adjustment to nerf reaper so hard. With the range burf of roach, reaper nerf is so unnecessary. Considering tier-1 unit using in 99.9% of games right now: zergling/roach/baneling, zealot/stalker/sentry yet Terran only use marine/marauder. Reaper become a complete joke.
On February 13 2011 07:16 ehalf wrote: Morrow is unbelievable good at sc2. totally beat some ppl who just sit and shit and crying for imbalance. BTW, looking back, blizz made a very bad adjustment to nerf reaper so hard. With the range burf of roach, reaper nerf is so unnecessary. Considering tier-1 unit using in 99.9% of games right now: zergling/roach/baneling, zealot/stalker/sentry yet Terran only use marine/marauder. Reaper become a complete joke.
Terran doesn't need another early game option that looks the same way as another when you scout, but requires an entirely different respone.
But I REALLY REALLY hate your fans. And wish there was an ignore function on this boards so I would never see posts from half the guys posting above me.
I would like you to show that you're better than these guys and understand what Idra said back then, and even more so, take that for what it was, a rage moment, and forget about it. You're man enough to do that, but most your fans are not.
I don't know why this turned into a flame war on his thread. Morrow is a great player. he made a change at the top level of Starcraft 2, and is back at the top again. Why does everyone take what Idra says so seriously? He is just 1 person with a VERY biased opinion and a very open mouth. No matter what Idra said, Morrow is a great player.
Ret is one of the best Zerg's in the world (besides loosing to cheese) and the series was very close. Ret just performed Roach very well, and Morrow had a hard time stopping it. It happens to the best of us.
Everyone stop flaming TL so hard, especially when someone puts them self out to the community.
On February 13 2011 07:35 Jotoco wrote: Morrow, I really like you, your play and all.
But I REALLY REALLY hate your fans. And wish there was an ignore function on this boards so I would never see posts from half the guys posting above me.
I would like you to show that you're better than these guys and understand what Idra said back then, and even more so, take that for what it was, a rage moment, and forget about it. You're man enough to do that, but most your fans are not.
oh the irony xD
edit : the best of the best is the guy with a idra quote in signature coming to explain that, if you understand right, idra was right saying Morrow would never be good with zerg xD Being a fanboy is bad for you people. Whoever you're a fanboy of (but I guess it's worse when you're a fan of idra, as he spits stupidities by dozens every week, so as a fan you have to try to find a hidden meaning in whatever he said so you can make sense of it :D )
On February 13 2011 07:35 Jotoco wrote: Morrow, I really like you, your play and all.
But I REALLY REALLY hate your fans. And wish there was an ignore function on this boards so I would never see posts from half the guys posting above me.
I would like you to show that you're better than these guys and understand what Idra said back then, and even more so, take that for what it was, a rage moment, and forget about it. You're man enough to do that, but most your fans are not.
oh the irony xD
+1
Idra is awesome, but his fans sometimes really blow my mind .... well seriously, considering even bronze league players give a lot 'constructive' suggestions in pro strategy thread on TL before, cant really blame these fans.
Wow what is this IdrA/Morrow crap. That statement was made months ago and zerg has gotten a lot stronger since then, and terran a lot weaker. It's a completely different game now. Hell a few months ago people thought banelings weren't that great. Grats to morrow on his sucesses, he was able to back up his words and is now one of the top foreign zerg. Besides, Morrow has already admitted he knew he won IEM Cologne on OP reapers/etc, so I don't really see the point on this whole argument
Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
On February 13 2011 05:01 johlar wrote: I wonder how Artosis and Idras imbalanced show will be if Morrow wins Assembly.
Anyone remember? :>
It's a ZvZ final O_o
No, he's referencing to IdrA's statement that if MorroW ever wins a tournement as Zerg, IdrA would never say the word 'balance' again, which would really screw with the Imbalanced show.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
winning with Z in EU at one Tournament is very different from winning a GSL with Z, cuz over there, P's know how to play against Z to win most games.
Morrow and ret are beasts - that says nothing about balance but only about how good they are. They are (together with maybe 1 or 2 other players) just worlds above most of their competition outside korea and if the game was balanced, they'd tear apart everyone.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
winning with Z in EU at one Tournament is very different from winning a GSL with Z, cuz over there, P's know how to play against Z to win most games.
Morrow and ret are beasts - that says nothing about balance but only about how good they are. They are (together with maybe 1 or 2 other players) just worlds above most of their competition outside korea and if the game was balanced, they'd tear apart everyone.
Uh-huh.
Well, still, Idra said that if MorroW won ANYTHING (big) as zerg, he'd never use the world "balance" again. I'd say this qualifies...
The rest is up to Idra fanboys to doublethink away, I guess, haha. You guys are incredible.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
winning with Z in EU at one Tournament is very different from winning a GSL with Z, cuz over there, P's know how to play against Z to win most games.
Morrow and ret are beasts - that says nothing about balance but only about how good they are. They are (together with maybe 1 or 2 other players) just worlds above most of their competition outside korea and if the game was balanced, they'd tear apart everyone.
Uh-huh.
Well, still, Idra said that if MorroW won ANYTHING (big) as zerg, he'd never use the world "balance" again. I'd say this qualifies...
The rest is up to Idra fanboys to doublethink away, I guess, haha. You guys are incredible.
You do realize that Morrow took 2nd... right? (I shouldn't have to state this, but I will: I mean that as no insult as Morrow is a great zerg and 2nd in that tourny is an accomplishment)
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
winning with Z in EU at one Tournament is very different from winning a GSL with Z, cuz over there, P's know how to play against Z to win most games.
Morrow and ret are beasts - that says nothing about balance but only about how good they are. They are (together with maybe 1 or 2 other players) just worlds above most of their competition outside korea and if the game was balanced, they'd tear apart everyone.
Uh-huh.
Well, still, Idra said that if MorroW won ANYTHING (big) as zerg, he'd never use the world "balance" again. I'd say this qualifies...
The rest is up to Idra fanboys to doublethink away, I guess, haha. You guys are incredible.
You do realize that Morrow took 2nd... right? (I shouldn't have to state this, but I will: I mean that as no insult as Morrow is a great zerg and 2nd in that tourny is an accomplishment)
Ya, I am fully aware that there was a ZvZ finals and MorroW lost to Ret, a former Korean BW proteam member, in the finals.
Idra is saved from all embarrassment! Maybe next time, IdrA... Maybe next time...
On February 13 2011 05:01 johlar wrote: I wonder how Artosis and Idras imbalanced show will be if Morrow wins Assembly.
Anyone remember? :>
It's a ZvZ final O_o
No, he's referencing to IdrA's statement that if MorroW ever wins a tournement as Zerg, IdrA would never say the word 'balance' again, which would really screw with the Imbalanced show.
Just quoting these two together because it's hilarious. GJ at assembly morrow.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
Ret, the guy who just beat Morrow, spent the better part of an hours on SOTG championing the case that zerg is underpowered.
Nestea, the best zerg in the world, has been voicing the same frustrations.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
Ret, the guy who just beat Morrow, spent the better part of an hour on SOTG championing the case that zerg is underpowered.
Nestea, the best zerg in the world, has been voicing the same frustrations.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
winning with Z in EU at one Tournament is very different from winning a GSL with Z, cuz over there, P's know how to play against Z to win most games.
Morrow and ret are beasts - that says nothing about balance but only about how good they are. They are (together with maybe 1 or 2 other players) just worlds above most of their competition outside korea and if the game was balanced, they'd tear apart everyone.
Uh-huh.
Well, still, Idra said that if MorroW won ANYTHING (big) as zerg, he'd never use the world "balance" again. I'd say this qualifies...
The rest is up to Idra fanboys to doublethink away, I guess, haha. You guys are incredible.
You do realize that Morrow took 2nd... right? (I shouldn't have to state this, but I will: I mean that as no insult as Morrow is a great zerg and 2nd in that tourny is an accomplishment)
Ya, I am fully aware that there was a ZvZ finals and MorroW lost to Ret, a former Korean BW proteam member, in the finals.
Idra is saved from all embarrassment by a technicality! Maybe next time, IdrA... Maybe next time...
Ret was never on a BW pro team... He practiced with Estro's B team for very, very short time while in Korea before having to leave the house. (maybe CJ, think it was Estro though)
Also, not only is there no "embarrassment," but there is no technicality. The length people will go in some vain attempt for a "gotcha'" moment is obscene. The game has changed repeatedly since that statement, he hasn't been proven wrong yet, and he has since then said Morrow is a good zerg player.
GJ to morrow, taking 2nd and losing to ret is no small feat. i agree with the objective that what idra said was an exaggeration and quite a few months ago. Since then idra has said that morrow is one of the zergs, what more is there to complain about? I do find it funny when a fan boy of a certain player gets so worked up over what are now meaningless comments.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
Ret, the guy who just beat Morrow, spent the better part of an hour on SOTG championing the case that zerg is underpowered.
Nestea, the best zerg in the world, has been voicing the same frustrations.
Laugh at them too.
Ain't the point, son.
Ain't the point.
The point is the word "balance".
Also bizarre that zergs keep winning these huge events (ZvZ finals...?) and we still nod our heads in unison whenever it's said that zerg is just soooo weak. So weak.
Thing is, Ret and Morrow are just SO superior than anyone else that they were able to win it handlely. Probably HuK, was the only one who was actually better than they were.
Morrow had like 75% win rate as Terran in the past and was winning every single tournament he entered to. After he switched, he didn't had nearly as much sucess, but just because he is indeed a very solid player he is starting to have some sucess when there isn't anyone of his level playing against him.
Morrow had like 75% win rate as Terran in the past and was winning every single tournament he entered to. After he switched, he didn't had nearly as much sucess, but just because he is indeed a very solid player he is starting to have some sucess when there isn't anyone of his level playing against him.
Seriously, this canard has gone on for so long. "Idra is just 100x better than anybody else. If the game were balanced, he would win everything." "FruitDealer is just 100x better than anybody else..." "NesTa is just 100x better..." "Ret is just 100x better..." "Dimaga is just 100x better..."
There was some background drama between MorroW and Idra before the final, Idra called MorroW out in a SC2 Beta Interview as a player who isn't "supposed to be able to beat players like Dimaga, because he's just ten times more skilled."
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
Ret, the guy who just beat Morrow, spent the better part of an hour on SOTG championing the case that zerg is underpowered.
Nestea, the best zerg in the world, has been voicing the same frustrations.
Laugh at them too.
Ain't the point, son.
Ain't the point.
The point is the word "balance".
Also bizarre that zergs keep winning these huge events (ZvZ finals...?) and we still nod our heads in unison whenever it's said that zerg is just soooo weak. So weak.
MorroW didn't win nor has he faced the caliber of competition in Korea. Ret did win and he has been bitching as much as Idra about the state of zerg.
I guess you don't really have a point then. That's okay, you can borrow mine:
At the highest levels of competitive Starcraft 2, the player consensus is that Zerg is somewhat underpowered.
On February 13 2011 10:58 suejak wrote: Idra can say anything and people will defend it to the death; it's bizarre.
Point is, Idra is still bitching that Z is weak to the point of uselessness and MorroW is winning shit. I think all us right-minded folk should take this moment to laugh at IdrA in unison. Here we go. Hahaha.
Ret, the guy who just beat Morrow, spent the better part of an hour on SOTG championing the case that zerg is underpowered.
Nestea, the best zerg in the world, has been voicing the same frustrations.
Laugh at them too.
Ain't the point, son.
Ain't the point.
The point is the word "balance".
Also bizarre that zergs keep winning these huge events (ZvZ finals...?) and we still nod our heads in unison whenever it's said that zerg is just soooo weak. So weak.
MorroW didn't win nor has he faced the caliber of competition in Korea. Ret did win and he has been bitching as much as Idra about the state of zerg.
I guess you don't really have a point then. That's okay, you can borrow mine:
At the highest levels of competitive Starcraft 2, the player consensus is that Zerg is somewhat underpowered.
Nestea>Ret==Idra>MorroW as far as clout goes.
The point is that MorroW got #2 in a high-profile tourney attended by lotttts of good players.
When he finally does win a big tourney, I want idra to never use the word "balance" ever again, like he promised :D
Apparently the number of people who think that would be funny is around 1...
even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote: even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
Uh-huh.
You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right?
On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote: even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
Uh-huh.
You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right?
On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote: even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
Uh-huh.
You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right?
In korea? yes.
I
You people and your elaborate stipulations.
Soz, I don't got any quotes of IdrA saying, "Zerg is impossible in Korea but viable at things like Assembly where everybody is low-level."
On February 13 2011 12:31 Consolidate wrote: Ret did win and he has been bitching as much as Idra about the state of zerg.
When did he bitch about it? He made an off-hand remark or two from time to time, but that hardly classifies as "as much as Idra". Idra is the only player (unless we count Artosis as well) that has been on a permanent balance crusade since beta.
Other players do mostly what players are supposed to do in the first place - just play the damn game.
On February 13 2011 12:31 Consolidate wrote: At the highest levels of competitive Starcraft 2, the player consensus is that Zerg is somewhat underpowered.
Players will just complain out of frustration when they don't accomplish what they would have liked to. It's normal, really.
The fact, though, is that every top Zerg player has had a major tournament win both on Korean and foreign scene.
On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote: even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
Uh-huh.
You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right?
In korea? yes.
I
You people and your elaborate stipulations.
Soz, I don't got any quotes of IdrA saying, "Zerg is impossible in Korea but viable at things like Assembly where everybody is low-level."
It's kind of like me saying, "If this moron can score past a 70 on an IQ test, I'll eat my hat."
Then the aforementioned person scores a 90 on the IQ test and now people are calling me out on my quote, saying I should eat my hat. That's kind of missing the point.
I mean, why ignore the message and take words literally? It doesn't make much sense.
On February 13 2011 04:28 TheButtonmen wrote: Hahaha I just saw the Morrow interview on the front page where he says certain spawn positions are an autoloss for zerg.
Idras point is indeed made.
He said the same thing when he played Terran tho, so uh... Surprise? -_- Nobody seriously thinks close spawn on Metal is balanced lol
On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote: even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc.
Uh-huh.
You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right?
In korea? yes.
I
You people and your elaborate stipulations.
Soz, I don't got any quotes of IdrA saying, "Zerg is impossible in Korea but viable at things like Assembly where everybody is low-level."
It's kind of like me saying, "If this moron can score past a 70 on an IQ test, I'll eat my hat."
Then the aforementioned person scores a 90 on the IQ test and now people are calling me out on my quote, saying I should eat my hat. That's kind of missing the point.
I mean, why ignore the message and take words literally? It doesn't make much sense.
The message was that Morrow sucks and yet he's the best zerg living in Europe... D:
I mean, saying "Morrow will never be good enough to win a major tourney as zerg" was definitely meant seriously... Obviously? I mean, what's the problem?
Getting through Assembly against the likes of Tarson, TLO, and Socke is like a 90 on an IQ test huh :-/
Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection)
I don't like the Morrow hate after IEM Cologne. He was the best terran there and would have probably won against Idra even without this reaper strategy, but of course he used the strongest build at that time, he isn't dumb. Morrow even said that the reaper strategy is too strong, that's really honest and respectable. BUT: He didn't said that he wouldn't have won the finals without reapers.
I also didn't like Idra's comments about Morrow and his zerg , but people should stop digging out comments which were made some month ago.
On February 14 2011 02:04 Shikyo wrote: Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection)
On February 14 2011 02:04 Shikyo wrote: Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection)
where can i watch?
Ditto would love to see these if they are available anywhere on the internet.
As a side note: Holy crap Shikyo you have spent a lot of time on these forums :O
Can we just agree that Idra was basically saying Morrow is a bad player and stop bringing up the tourney quote? And now Morrow has proven the naysayers wrong and proven that he is probably one of the top players in Europe. I think he could do well in Korea and would at least be able to compete with the top Code A guys and with practice be able to make Code S. It's just too bad we probably won't be seeing him in Korea anytime soon.
I think it's funny that he still gets flack despite all that he has accomplished. Even as Terran, despite the reaper openings (which had little effect on Idra on some games) he destroyed Idra in straight up macro. And as Zerg he's proven he can hang with the big boys. Still though he gets comments like TLO calling him an "economic cheeser." It's mind boggling to me, especially when TLO said Ret doesn't have that problem (despite Ret losing important games because he was droning way too hard and had nothing to defend) I just hope we can bury that Idra quote now, because he's never going to seriously stop complaining about balance.and that quote was never meant to be taken with a straight face.
On February 15 2011 01:05 GP wrote: I think it's funny that he still gets flack despite all that he has accomplished. Even as Terran, despite the reaper openings (which had little effect on Idra on some games) he destroyed Idra in straight up macro. And as Zerg he's proven he can hang with the big boys. Still though he gets comments like TLO calling him an "economic cheeser." It's mind boggling to me, especially when TLO said Ret doesn't have that problem (despite Ret losing important games because he was droning way too hard and had nothing to defend) I just hope we can bury that Idra quote now, because he's never going to seriously stop complaining about balance.and that quote was never meant to be taken with a straight face.
If TLO said that then I would agree except that it's also true for Ret. There's a difference between "good macro" (low energy on queens, never getting supply blocked, placing buildings just when you have enough money, always keeping money low) and just droning like a motherfucker and spamming hatcheries and hope they don't attack you (what I do, basically).
Both Ret and Morrow will often lose to an early attack because they just droned too hard, IdrA is better in reading this and making just enough attacking units.
I just find it weird that people don't call this type of play 'cheese', to me, something like a 16 nexus is simply cheesy, you go all-in, you take a huge gamble and you rely heavily on the other scouting it too late or dealing with it inappropriately, but that's suddenly good play because it's 'macro'.
Obviously MorroW is a great player and all and indeed cheese is part of the game, but it's still cheese and taking a risk and hoping the other player doesn't scout it or handles it inadequately.
I would agree though that saying it's not the case with Ret is just weird, Ret is also prone to losing games because he overdroned.
You guys have to realize there will always be personal/team bias. With that said, ret and Morrow play very similar in ZvP and ZvT. From the assembly, Morrow was using an outdated ZvZ BO, which could work if you know when and how to poke properly. Unfortunately, he even stated his ZvZ practice was limited whereas ret looked far more solid and as a result won 3-1.
With regards to IdrA's comments. He was butthurt losing to Morrow's BO/reaper abuse at the time (his comments were tongue in cheek, so you shouldn't take what he said seriously).
On ret and Morrow,
Give them both more time and I bet they'll hone their timings down. As of now, yes IdrA has a better sense of when to make the switch. However, you cannot call that cheese. It's greed economy builds that will give you an advantage if you make it to the mid-game with minimal loses. At the moment this is the style Zerg has to exploit as there aren't many opportunities in the early game. Most 'good' zerg players follow similar openings hence there is nothing cheesey about it. Other players expect them to do such openings hence it's standard. There is a fine line between such expressions as cheese, all-in and economy. In fact, there have been several threads with regard to this and you don't even have to search for those. Use the Liquipedia and you'll find all your answers there. ._.
People keep talking about Idra's quote to Morrow. Well, remember Zerg was BUFFED after this quote. I mean anyone who watched the Idra Morrow games could understand just how fustrating it must have been to deal with reapers in that situation. Hell, if I was Idra I would want to kick puppies after losing those games. Granted I don't know if Idra was better then Morrow BUT losing to reapers in that situation must have been infuriating. I mean it was obviously imbalanced as zerg could do nothing about it without being seriously behind.
On February 15 2011 02:10 Siraz wrote: People keep talking about Idra's quote to Morrow. Well, remember Zerg was BUFFED after this quote. I mean anyone who watched the Idra Morrow games could understand just how fustrating it must have been to deal with reapers in that situation. Hell, if I was Idra I would want to kick puppies after losing those games. Granted I don't know if Idra was better then Morrow BUT losing to reapers in that situation must have been infuriating. I mean it was obviously imbalanced as zerg could do nothing about it without being seriously behind.
Um... It was a brand-new strat when Morrow used it (he'd actually only been told to use it the night before), and zergs eventually figured out how to beat it WITHOUT patching (Idra himself said so in a later interview -- that the fix "to nerf reapers" was way behind the metagame and an unneeded change).
On June 14 2011 00:41 busbarn wrote: He plays ZvT, ZvP and TvZ now
I'm a little sad - it's not like his ZvZ is horrendous. He lost 2-1 to Sheth in the last week of NASL with huge implications - but he got BO-countered in his two losses (ling/bling 1base vs Roach 2base, 9pool vs 14g/14p)... hope to see some ZvZ from him, no reason to give up!
I started sc2 not too long ago, and I do believe that the VERY FIRST game of sc2 I ever saw was ZvT with you playing Zerg.
After watching a ton of insects consume some poor marines I decided that I was going to get good with zerg, and atm Im working on macro a ton, focusing on becoming as good as I can with zerg.
EPT
we dont keep overseers everywhere and we lack the APM to check each of our bases )
? 
Master MorroW, we are waiting for you! 
