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On February 13 2011 18:24 Frozenserpent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 18:06 suejak wrote:On February 13 2011 17:58 Fa1nT wrote:On February 13 2011 15:44 suejak wrote:On February 13 2011 15:32 pechkin wrote:
even if morrow wins gsl with zerg, it would be that impressive anyway, idra said that morrow cant win anything with zerg pre patch - when roaches were 3 range etc. Uh-huh. You understand that IdrA is still saying zerg is impossible, right? In korea? yes. I You people and your elaborate stipulations. Soz, I don't got any quotes of IdrA saying, "Zerg is impossible in Korea but viable at things like Assembly where everybody is low-level." It's kind of like me saying, "If this moron can score past a 70 on an IQ test, I'll eat my hat." Then the aforementioned person scores a 90 on the IQ test and now people are calling me out on my quote, saying I should eat my hat. That's kind of missing the point. I mean, why ignore the message and take words literally? It doesn't make much sense.
The message was that Morrow sucks and yet he's the best zerg living in Europe... D:
I mean, saying "Morrow will never be good enough to win a major tourney as zerg" was definitely meant seriously... Obviously? I mean, what's the problem?
Getting through Assembly against the likes of Tarson, TLO, and Socke is like a 90 on an IQ test huh :-/
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Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection)
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I don't like the Morrow hate after IEM Cologne. He was the best terran there and would have probably won against Idra even without this reaper strategy, but of course he used the strongest build at that time, he isn't dumb. Morrow even said that the reaper strategy is too strong, that's really honest and respectable. BUT: He didn't said that he wouldn't have won the finals without reapers.
I also didn't like Idra's comments about Morrow and his zerg , but people should stop digging out comments which were made some month ago.
This whole Idra-Morrow story is so painful.
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On February 14 2011 02:04 Shikyo wrote:
Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection)
where can i watch?
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Canada13402 Posts
On February 14 2011 06:21 Dont Panic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 02:04 Shikyo wrote:
Morrow's ZvZ sense is kind of lacking as of now. However, you guys seriously need to watch the replays of the non-mirrors he played on Assembly from his point of view. I've never been as impressed by any FPview since Jaedong, even Idra's or Huks or anyone's stream wasn't as impressive. I believe that if Morrow keeps going he's going to become something amazing very soon. There's insane amounts of potential in his fpview. (You get the feel that he always strives for perfection) where can i watch?
Ditto would love to see these if they are available anywhere on the internet.
As a side note: Holy crap Shikyo you have spent a lot of time on these forums :O
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Can we just agree that Idra was basically saying Morrow is a bad player and stop bringing up the tourney quote? And now Morrow has proven the naysayers wrong and proven that he is probably one of the top players in Europe. I think he could do well in Korea and would at least be able to compete with the top Code A guys and with practice be able to make Code S. It's just too bad we probably won't be seeing him in Korea anytime soon.
I think it's funny that he still gets flack despite all that he has accomplished. Even as Terran, despite the reaper openings (which had little effect on Idra on some games) he destroyed Idra in straight up macro. And as Zerg he's proven he can hang with the big boys. Still though he gets comments like TLO calling him an "economic cheeser." It's mind boggling to me, especially when TLO said Ret doesn't have that problem (despite Ret losing important games because he was droning way too hard and had nothing to defend) I just hope we can bury that Idra quote now, because he's never going to seriously stop complaining about balance.and that quote was never meant to be taken with a straight face.
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On February 15 2011 01:05 GP wrote:
I think it's funny that he still gets flack despite all that he has accomplished. Even as Terran, despite the reaper openings (which had little effect on Idra on some games) he destroyed Idra in straight up macro. And as Zerg he's proven he can hang with the big boys. Still though he gets comments like TLO calling him an "economic cheeser." It's mind boggling to me, especially when TLO said Ret doesn't have that problem (despite Ret losing important games because he was droning way too hard and had nothing to defend) I just hope we can bury that Idra quote now, because he's never going to seriously stop complaining about balance.and that quote was never meant to be taken with a straight face. If TLO said that then I would agree except that it's also true for Ret. There's a difference between "good macro" (low energy on queens, never getting supply blocked, placing buildings just when you have enough money, always keeping money low) and just droning like a motherfucker and spamming hatcheries and hope they don't attack you (what I do, basically).
Both Ret and Morrow will often lose to an early attack because they just droned too hard, IdrA is better in reading this and making just enough attacking units.
I just find it weird that people don't call this type of play 'cheese', to me, something like a 16 nexus is simply cheesy, you go all-in, you take a huge gamble and you rely heavily on the other scouting it too late or dealing with it inappropriately, but that's suddenly good play because it's 'macro'.
Obviously MorroW is a great player and all and indeed cheese is part of the game, but it's still cheese and taking a risk and hoping the other player doesn't scout it or handles it inadequately.
I would agree though that saying it's not the case with Ret is just weird, Ret is also prone to losing games because he overdroned.
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You guys have to realize there will always be personal/team bias. With that said, ret and Morrow play very similar in ZvP and ZvT. From the assembly, Morrow was using an outdated ZvZ BO, which could work if you know when and how to poke properly. Unfortunately, he even stated his ZvZ practice was limited whereas ret looked far more solid and as a result won 3-1.
With regards to IdrA's comments. He was butthurt losing to Morrow's BO/reaper abuse at the time (his comments were tongue in cheek, so you shouldn't take what he said seriously).
On ret and Morrow,
Give them both more time and I bet they'll hone their timings down. As of now, yes IdrA has a better sense of when to make the switch. However, you cannot call that cheese. It's greed economy builds that will give you an advantage if you make it to the mid-game with minimal loses. At the moment this is the style Zerg has to exploit as there aren't many opportunities in the early game. Most 'good' zerg players follow similar openings hence there is nothing cheesey about it. Other players expect them to do such openings hence it's standard. There is a fine line between such expressions as cheese, all-in and economy. In fact, there have been several threads with regard to this and you don't even have to search for those. Use the Liquipedia and you'll find all your answers there. ._.
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People keep talking about Idra's quote to Morrow. Well, remember Zerg was BUFFED after this quote. I mean anyone who watched the Idra Morrow games could understand just how fustrating it must have been to deal with reapers in that situation. Hell, if I was Idra I would want to kick puppies after losing those games. Granted I don't know if Idra was better then Morrow BUT losing to reapers in that situation must have been infuriating. I mean it was obviously imbalanced as zerg could do nothing about it without being seriously behind.
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On February 15 2011 02:10 Siraz wrote:
People keep talking about Idra's quote to Morrow. Well, remember Zerg was BUFFED after this quote. I mean anyone who watched the Idra Morrow games could understand just how fustrating it must have been to deal with reapers in that situation. Hell, if I was Idra I would want to kick puppies after losing those games. Granted I don't know if Idra was better then Morrow BUT losing to reapers in that situation must have been infuriating. I mean it was obviously imbalanced as zerg could do nothing about it without being seriously behind.
Um... It was a brand-new strat when Morrow used it (he'd actually only been told to use it the night before), and zergs eventually figured out how to beat it WITHOUT patching (Idra himself said so in a later interview -- that the fix "to nerf reapers" was way behind the metagame and an unneeded change).
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Officially ultralisk baller nerd killer.
you're a hero morrow
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From larva to ultralisk... to marine?:S
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Huh? Did he switch back? Did I miss something?
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He plays ZvT, ZvP and TvZ now
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if he switches back his TvZ is going to be scary :p
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On June 14 2011 00:41 busbarn wrote:
He plays ZvT, ZvP and TvZ now
I'm a little sad - it's not like his ZvZ is horrendous. He lost 2-1 to Sheth in the last week of NASL with huge implications - but he got BO-countered in his two losses (ling/bling 1base vs Roach 2base, 9pool vs 14g/14p)... hope to see some ZvZ from him, no reason to give up!
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You fail to remember the difference between zerg then and now.
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EPT
