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Eluadyl
Turkey364 Posts
On September 24 2010 16:49 EonShiKeno wrote: Great post! It's nice to see someone make a point that actually contributes to moving forward as a community. As long as the community spare time to read it that is. | ||
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Twist-O-Fate
Canada38 Posts
On September 24 2010 19:17 AidanS wrote: Honestly I think that there is no counter fallacy, at least with poorer players in silver/bronze like myself. There is just no way to throw more stuff at someone and win in many cases. The counters are simply too effective. I worry about how much low gateway stuff I would have to throw against someone with 4 collossi and a handful of gate units. It's simply not possible to have the amount of extra stuff you need to punish teching to counters unless you get in at just the right time. Too late and you get wrecked despite numbers because of a critical mass of BC/Collossi/voids/ultras/tanks. Too early and the defenders advantage that they will have will be more significant and you'll lose. Getting in just at the right time with a bunch of stuff is much harder than turtling till your counters are massed then going for the kill. So if you are new, like me, the "just make unit x" advice tends to be the best. Especially as there are so many counters that you just need to sprinkle in to your army at a low cost to make serveral high tech units worthless. For the low, low cost of 4 vikings you shut out colossi from the match and make switching to air units tricky too. 1 ghost and serveral immortals/templar just became mortals/paperweights. Its not as if just making a few vikings or ghosts is going to be so pricey that you wont have a regular army left because you only need a dab of them. In addition you can get around counters by good unit control but if you are a noob playing noobs then neither of you will have the ability to dodge storms, feedback ghosts and plant sexy forcefields. So just get the right counter works best for me and I guess is why the "just get blah" advice is so prevalent. This belief is precisely why you will remain in bronze! Read and UNDERSTAND what the OP is trying to tell you, and accept it as truth. You actually kind of submitted to it anyway. Talking about the fact that you just cant throw enough stuff at X. The answer to your problem, and almost all bronze to platinum IS NOT the lack of unit counter knowledge. | ||
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SCvanTango
Switzerland64 Posts
On September 24 2010 19:17 AidanS wrote: Honestly I think that there is no counter fallacy, at least with poorer players in silver/bronze like myself. There is just no way to throw more stuff at someone and win in many cases. The counters are simply too effective. I worry about how much low gateway stuff I would have to throw against someone with 4 collossi and a handful of gate units. It's simply not possible to have the amount of extra stuff you need to punish teching to counters unless you get in at just the right time. Too late and you get wrecked despite numbers because of a critical mass of BC/Collossi/voids/ultras/tanks. Too early and the defenders advantage that they will have will be more significant and you'll lose. Getting in just at the right time with a bunch of stuff is much harder than turtling till your counters are massed then going for the kill. So if you are new, like me, the "just make unit x" advice tends to be the best. Especially as there are so many counters that you just need to sprinkle in to your army at a low cost to make serveral high tech units worthless. For the low, low cost of 4 vikings you shut out colossi from the match and make switching to air units tricky too. 1 ghost and serveral immortals/templar just became mortals/paperweights. Its not as if just making a few vikings or ghosts is going to be so pricey that you wont have a regular army left because you only need a dab of them. In addition you can get around counters by good unit control but if you are a noob playing noobs then neither of you will have the ability to dodge storms, feedback ghosts and plant sexy forcefields. So just get the right counter works best for me and I guess is why the "just get blah" advice is so prevalent. Not really agree to that. The best (and oftentimes ONLY) good advice at those levels is just to say "learn to macro better" and "learn how/when you can get an expo up". All other things you can do is really just a bronze player trying to stay in bronze and still having fun with it (nothing wrong with that at all btw, but if you're looking for advice to actually improve, then that's the best anyone can give you when you're stuck in gold/silver/bronze (even plat most of the time)) | ||
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Zog
57 Posts
On September 24 2010 14:40 shindigs wrote: Despite some veteran SC players’ knowledge, sometimes even sophisticated discussions may dissolve into gross simplifications. For example, lets say a Zerg player has issues with a general MMM ball. Responses that follow the “simple-counter fallacy” may not just be “just mass ultras”, but it may be “Well just Fast Expand, get an early third, start upgrades early, and keep Terran contained (lol) until you can pump out a sizeable ultra army to supplement your forces.” Though this response is correct, as all those factors would contribute to a sizeable Ultralisk army, the Zerg player will encounter a lot more obstacles when trying to execute the strategy - such as reaper openings, inability to control the early game, and being contained himself. Zerg : I have an issue with MMM ball Terran : Make ultralisks Zerg : But if Terran pushes before my ultraliks I'm dead Terran : Yes you're dead hahahahahaha  => not a simple-counter fallacy Joke aside, great post, it's easy to tell someone to do something, but harder to do it in game. | ||
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BuzzJuice
United States97 Posts
I think we should first address the Forum OP. His question SHOULD NOT BE: "Hi. I'm Protoss. I need help with Roaches." Because then the NATURAL (and obvious) RESPONSE would of course be: "Get Immortals. They counter Roaches". It should be: "Hi. I'm Protoss. I go for a one warp gate one robo fast expand build. My macro is sorta decent but I keep falling to very early Roach pressure, specifically when it comes when my expansion is opening up. I didn't harass and played very passively. My expansion starts at about 40 food and by the time it is halfway done I have a few sentries and a mix of about 4 zealots and 4 stalkers. How do I deal with 15-16 Roaches? He seems to go all in?" (Keep in mind that this is a hypothetical situation and made just for example's purpose) This OP allows a person to analyze the different aspects of the problem. Here the guy is trying to fast expand in general but falls to QUICK roaches, NOT MASS ROACHES which seems to be a common assumption. People who know how to deal with this can analyze whether the guy should have this many units, or whether there seems to be some other problem with his unit composition, or whether he should have better micro. As people who respond to the OP we should demand a better explanation of the issue. We should not be lazy and say 'counter with immortals', we should ask 'when does the attack come? How many units do you have? How many does he have? Does he have something else like Roach-Hydra? Can you handle the first push, but fall to later pushes? Does the push cripple or kill you? Can you show me a replay of this? What is your opening? When the attack comes what structures do you have in your base? Did the Zerg do anything beforehand to you or did you do anything to the Zerg?' This forces the OP to think as well and relate other CRITICAL parts of the problem he is forgetting to tell. It makes him a better player KNOWING that there are other aspects than simple counters AND THAT HE SHOULD QUESTION OTHER ASPECTS OF HIS GAME. Also don't use the word 'counter'. Day 9 explains in one of his dailies that counter is actually two concepts rather than one. If e.g you get Mutas, you FORCE (1) the Terran to get loads of turrets. Terran NEEDS to get those turrets else he will die (or a Thor or a lot of marines). But on the other hand there is the RESPONSE (2). For e.g if your Terran opponent gets lots of marines, you can RESPOND well to that composition by getting collosi. These two concepts take into consideration timing. For example, the first Muta attack (usually 6) requires one strat, and delayed Muta (which creates about 12-20) requires another. | ||
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SCvanTango
Switzerland64 Posts
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
On September 24 2010 19:17 AidanS wrote: Honestly I think that there is no counter fallacy, at least with poorer players in silver/bronze like myself. There is just no way to throw more stuff at someone and win in many cases. The counters are simply too effective. I worry about how much low gateway stuff I would have to throw against someone with 4 collossi and a handful of gate units. It's simply not possible to have the amount of extra stuff you need to punish teching to counters unless you get in at just the right time. Too late and you get wrecked despite numbers because of a critical mass of BC/Collossi/voids/ultras/tanks. Too early and the defenders advantage that they will have will be more significant and you'll lose. Getting in just at the right time with a bunch of stuff is much harder than turtling till your counters are massed then going for the kill. So if you are new, like me, the "just make unit x" advice tends to be the best. Especially as there are so many counters that you just need to sprinkle in to your army at a low cost to make serveral high tech units worthless. For the low, low cost of 4 vikings you shut out colossi from the match and make switching to air units tricky too. 1 ghost and serveral immortals/templar just became mortals/paperweights. Its not as if just making a few vikings or ghosts is going to be so pricey that you wont have a regular army left because you only need a dab of them. In addition you can get around counters by good unit control but if you are a noob playing noobs then neither of you will have the ability to dodge storms, feedback ghosts and plant sexy forcefields. So just get the right counter works best for me and I guess is why the "just get blah" advice is so prevalent. I agree that unit composition counters are a key aspect of learning the game, but as you improve you begin to notice that losing a game wasn't a matter of "oh I should have just had this unit at this time". It also is about putting yourself into a position where you can produce certain units with minimal fear of being attacked by a counter-strategy to yours. The reason why bronze/silver players are told to just learn to macro and scout is because the very basics of macro and scouting can allow yourself to be in a very good position against lower level opponents in order to produce the units and execute the strategies you need. | ||
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mololu
Switzerland64 Posts
I fall victim to this repeatedly, as happened in a game before. Rather than relying on macro and zlings/crawlers until lair tech I tried to get the 'right unit' too quickly against a very poorly executed 4gate push and nearly got myself killed. Sure, I had all the 'right' units. But I didn't have enough of them as teching up was too damned expensive. Had I done the usual thing I'd have had at least 30% more drones AND units - and not lost my natural to the damned push. Fancy things *seem* to work well in bronze and silver but playing as a zerg I'm really seeing how marcoing alone wins more games than anything else - mainly because this is the only way to win reliably at my skill level as zerg. It makes my skin crawl every time I play a T or P getting the 'right unit mix' but stuck on one base to tech up. You simply cannot win on one base vs. a comparable opponent who has three or four times as many bases, regardless of which units you have. Sure, counters are important and they can decide a game. But it's your game plan that has to get you to the counter, not a quick tech switch in the middle of doing something else. It will just slow you down in my experience. Real world example: You go 14 gas/pool 15 hatch. Your enemy is doing your everyday mech push with a few helions but doens't have as many bases as you (have seen this many times). For whatever reason I figure mass zerglings + crawler will suffice to protect myself till mutas. So yeah, you loose a lot of zerglings but you live till mutas, then begin counter-harrass, to which he builds marines. The response is building blings and eventually rolling him over. Now at a low level, this tactic STILL WILL WORK even though helions counter zerglings. Why? The fancy micro needed for helions (not so fancy but you do need to micro) will deter from macro - and macro begins to slip. The apparently hard counter turns entirely useless if the other person gets to three bases and you are still stuck on one with 15 workers. If you'd left the helions aside, gone for normal macro and a regular MM(M) push you might have won... but the dedication towards doing something fancy distracted you from the basic mechanics of SC2's macro and lost you in the end - even though you roasted 60 zerglings and lost 10 helions in the process. | ||
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Pandonetho
Canada321 Posts
But otherwise, I agree. People who simply answer to 'get this' or 'do this' generally don't understand the scope of the question and are just trying to get their post count up, or annoy others. | ||
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Stossel
United States47 Posts
On September 25 2010 03:35 Pandonetho wrote: I just wanted to point out that a fallacy is a flaw in reasoning, and when someone tells you a 1 liner to 'do this' it isn't necessarily a fallacy. It's just him being unhelpful. The fallacy at hand is a straw man. OP: I'm having trouble dealing with X (say a roach rush) Responder: Then get immortals (which counters roaches as a unit but in no way counters the situation.) So the responder simplifies (read: changes) the OPs problem and solves it with a simple solution. I completely agree with the OP, but I think that another major component needs to addressed: Don't respond to threads with posted replays without watching the replays. I can't stand when people just want to post stuff without actually taking a look at what a posters problems are. And I'd say in general it leads to the kinds of simplified responses that the OP is talking about. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On September 24 2010 15:08 Barrin wrote: The 11th commandment should be to never use the following "words" (not actual words): -Strategical -Metagame | ||
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