EPTTournament winners since release - Page 41
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:25 DonKey_ wrote: ...um does it not bother anyone that terrans wins are only so high cause morrow has won a grand total of 12! tournaments... this might be more conclusive if it was more evenly spread between the terran players. even if you took morrow out of the equation the numbers would still favor Terran by a pretty large margin, but he is definitely an outlier that skews the statistic a little further toward Terran. If he was just being carried by his race he wouldn't have 12 wins, it would be spread out more between other terrans. But the fact that we are seeing tournaments with top 4s consisting of all Terrans is pretty compelling, and enough for me to consider the results conclusive. edit: also, I think the more important statstic is the super low number of zergs | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:40 Senorcuidado wrote: even if you took morrow out of the equation the numbers would still favor Terran by a pretty large margin, but he is definitely an outlier that skews the statistic a little further toward Terran. If he was just being carried by his race he wouldn't have 12 wins, it would be spread out more between other terrans. But the fact that we are seeing tournaments with top 4s consisting of all Terrans is pretty compelling, and enough for me to consider the results conclusive. Saying that is a bit hard to do. MLG had one Terran in the top 4 and none in the Top 3, the rest being Protosss. ESL had no Protoss in the top 4, with 2 Zergs in the top 3. Also, most of these are weekly tournaments and the like, which might skew the results slightly. | ||
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smegged
Australia213 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:19 MythicalMage wrote: You can mass any unit, depending on your definition of mass. It was the only unit that you could make 100 of other than zerglings, if that's what you mean. But you can legitimately make 20+ mutas, which I consider a mass, or 50+ zerglings which I also consider a mass. Yeah you can mass any unit, but back at one supply, the roach let you mass a unit that could actually crack fortified positions. Now to do that you need to get to tier 3 and get either broodlords or ultras. Let's look at the units: Lings - very massable but melt to anything at all that has AOE damage or even fast attacks. Mutas - massable but get annihilated by anything with AtG damage Hydra - massable but paper thin and incredibly immobile (compare to the void ray, which is similarly a glass cannon but has mobility advantages over hydra) Roach - massable but not enough to develop critical mass to crack a tank line. They melt to a stalker/colossus ball. Infestors - spellcaster and not viable to mass Corruptors - worst unit in the game Broodlords and Ultras - Tier 3 units that are awesome but you can never really have more than half a dozen or so of them. Drones - I mass drones every game. I aim for 60+ every time. Banelings - I <3 banelings. They are awesome against marines (which are pound for pound the best unit in the game). Now I think personally that most of these units really are quite good and all have their place in the zerg army. What is missing though is something on the ground that can crack a fortified position in the midgame. Everything on the ground melts to stalker/colossi. Everything on the ground gets owned by any AOE attack. There is no real hard hitter for the zerg in the midgame. Nothing that really makes your opponent crap their pants when they see or hear it (I get nightmares about the siege mode sound). In the midgame, against protoss players of any quality you do not engage ground forces without ultras and against terran players of any quality you do not engage ground forces without some other kind of advantage. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:25 DonKey_ wrote: ...um does it not bother anyone that terrans wins are only so high cause morrow has won a grand total of 12! tournaments... this might be more conclusive if it was more evenly spread between the terran players. Large portion of those wins are with a TVT in the finals so it doesnt matter. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On September 20 2010 05:53 MythicalMage wrote: No it's certainly favoring Terran and Protoss, but it's NOTHING to what people think of it. And the changes in the next patch aren't fixing it NEARLY as much as the advancement of zerg strategy. quite the contrary. yes, it's nothing like people think, but in the other direction. toss and terran are both ridiculously overpowered against zerg. the amount of skill requird for a zerg player to win against a terran or toss is ridiculous compared to what the terran and protoss player has to be able to do. only players who played one race mainly and switched to the other races while maintaining diamond level (for me its around 1k with random, zerg I was at around 1.1k in a tough division meaning my opponents were always 1300+) know what I'm talking about, since I'm one of them. I was zerg, and playing both terran and toss is so damn ridiculously easy that it's really not funny (I'm random for now until the patch hopefuly does more than what's in the situation report 1). maybe not mechanically, since terran in my eyes actually requires a little bit more apm than zerg, but certainly strategically, which is the most important thing since everyone with more than one arm should be able to maintain 120-150 apm which is plenty for every race. the players I lose to on the ladder with zerg, when I get them again the game after, which happens a lot during my playtimes, and get any other races I completely and utterly destroy them, even in mirror, and that's not exaggerated. ok, granted, the opponents i play against are only at around 1000-1200 rating, but still, show me one terran who offraces as zerg and beats opponents with it on the ladder whom he wasn't able to beat with terran. you will find 0. literally 0. both terran and protoss are just much much much more streamlined and in general have much more powerful units and abilites than zerg. it's a million times easier to get BOs straight, to counter stuff, and to keep your macro in check than with zerg. battles are a million times less scary since you do in general have a more powerful army unless you've enormously fucked up. especially with protoss it's just a joke. force field is the most overpowered thing every to grace the face of an RTS, the only reason most players don't realize that yet is because most protoss players, even the high level ones, utterly suck in force field usage. when I play protoss on the ladder against zerg, I rarely if ever lose a lot of units in combat, be it lategame or midgame push, simply because of force field (unless there are ultras of course, but my opponents never get to that and if they do, I've done something terribly wrong). with terran it's actually not so much the units (but that's just because I'm too bad to properly use and position my tanks) but rather the ridiculous strategies u can pull off against zerg. blue flame hellions into double airport invisible banshees when opponent has just arrived at lair? no problem. simply 20 marine push when your opponent doesn't expect it at all? no problem. mass reaper into fast expand and simultaneous deadly m&m push? no problem. let's not even talk about drops. If a zerg could have maphack against terran he would actually be quite fine. so yeah, people won't realize how ridiculous the other two races are until a guy like idra or dimaga switches to terran full time. but that won't happen, since those guys are too loyal to their race~~. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On September 20 2010 05:59 MythicalMage wrote: Races was appropriate. In Korea, Protoss is considered the "imba" race, moreso than Terran. But you brought up a brilliant point. If I'm starting to play a game at the pro level, I'm certainly not going to pick the one that has even a CHANCE of being weaker. Why would I? So the mentality that Zerg is weaker is causing less players of Zerg which is causing fewer new zerg strategies and thoughts and the like, which is hurting Zerg as a whole. Mentality or reality? | ||
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:49 smegged wrote: Yeah you can mass any unit, but back at one supply, the roach let you mass a unit that could actually crack fortified positions. Now to do that you need to get to tier 3 and get either broodlords or ultras. Let's look at the units: Lings - very massable but melt to anything at all that has AOE damage or even fast attacks. Mutas - massable but get annihilated by anything with AtG damage Hydra - massable but paper thin and incredibly immobile (compare to the void ray, which is similarly a glass cannon but has mobility advantages over hydra) Roach - massable but not enough to develop critical mass to crack a tank line. They melt to a stalker/colossus ball. Infestors - spellcaster and not viable to mass Corruptors - worst unit in the game Broodlords and Ultras - Tier 3 units that are awesome but you can never really have more than half a dozen or so of them. Drones - I mass drones every game. I aim for 60+ every time. Banelings - I <3 banelings. They are awesome against marines (which are pound for pound the best unit in the game). Now I think personally that most of these units really are quite good and all have their place in the zerg army. What is missing though is something on the ground that can crack a fortified position in the midgame. Everything on the ground melts to stalker/colossi. Everything on the ground gets owned by any AOE attack. There is no real hard hitter for the zerg in the midgame. Nothing that really makes your opponent crap their pants when they see or hear it (I get nightmares about the siege mode sound). In the midgame, against protoss players of any quality you do not engage ground forces without ultras and against terran players of any quality you do not engage ground forces without some other kind of advantage. That is not entirely true. In ZvP zerg is jst fine after the critical all-in timings in the early midgame. The key to those stalker-colossi armies are lots and lots of roaches with both upgrades, reinforced by just a handfull of hydras and some corruptors. once you hit endgame on at least 3 base with either broodlords or ultras you cannot lose against anything the protoss can throw at you. ZvT however is a bitch. | ||
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liaf
Norway318 Posts
On September 20 2010 07:04 Slunk wrote: That is not entirely true. In ZvP zerg is jst fine after the critical all-in timings in the early midgame. The key to those stalker-colossi armies are lots and lots of roaches with both upgrades, reinforced by just a handfull of hydras and some corruptors. once you hit endgame on at least 3 base with either broodlords or ultras you cannot lose against anything the protoss can throw at you. ZvT however is a bitch. On September 17 2010 19:28 IdrA wrote: zvp is largely considered the least balanced in korea right now Edit: From here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153636¤tpage=33#643 | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On September 20 2010 05:59 MythicalMage wrote: Races was appropriate. In Korea, Protoss is considered the "imba" race, moreso than Terran. But you brought up a brilliant point. If I'm starting to play a game at the pro level, I'm certainly not going to pick the one that has even a CHANCE of being weaker. Why would I? So the mentality that Zerg is weaker is causing less players of Zerg which is causing fewer new zerg strategies and thoughts and the like, which is hurting Zerg as a whole. Yup. Except sc2ranks shows that difference in race distribution in Diamond league is around ~3 percent (most of non-terrans are at the bottom though, of course) and in whole ladder around ~10 percent with majority of players being Protoss. Even in TL open (and GSL) majority of entrances are Protoss, yet even Protoss is behind the Terran when it comes to winning. And please, provide source about Protoss being considered more "imba" than Terran in Korea. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 20 2010 07:21 InRaged wrote: Tasteless and Artosis's commentary in the GSL. They mention the mindset numerous times.Yup. Except sc2ranks shows that difference in race distribution in Diamond league is around ~3 percent (most of non-terrans are at the bottom though, of course) and in whole ladder around ~10 percent with majority of players being Protoss. Even in TL open (and GSL) majority of entrances are Protoss, yet even Protoss is behind the Terran when it comes to winning. And please, provide source about Protoss being considered more "imba" than Terran in Korea. | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:46 MythicalMage wrote: Saying that is a bit hard to do. MLG had one Terran in the top 4 and none in the Top 3, the rest being Protosss. ESL had no Protoss in the top 4, with 2 Zergs in the top 3. Also, most of these are weekly tournaments and the like, which might skew the results slightly. very good point, I agree completely. I never should have (and nobody should) made generalizations based on a few tournaments. That was sloppy and unscientific of me. I still consider the data in the OP to be a large enough sample to be compelling, but my use of anecdotal evidence does not support it. I also agree that development of strategies and playstyles will do more to help Zerg than balance patches ever will. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
nuff said. tbh im starting to get really bored of watching tvt all the time. its beginning to hurt sc2´s value as an observer sport. | ||
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smegged
Australia213 Posts
On September 20 2010 07:04 Slunk wrote: That is not entirely true. In ZvP zerg is jst fine after the critical all-in timings in the early midgame. The key to those stalker-colossi armies are lots and lots of roaches with both upgrades, reinforced by just a handfull of hydras and some corruptors. once you hit endgame on at least 3 base with either broodlords or ultras you cannot lose against anything the protoss can throw at you. ZvT however is a bitch. Against a Protoss who has good forcefield usage you really cannot engage their army without risking losing everything. All they need is an observer and they can nullify mass roach usage quite easily. On an open field you are fine but there are precious few places to engage that are open enough. The timing window in which the protoss have Colossi and you don't have ultras is very painful (if the protoss know how to use forcefield). | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:19 MythicalMage wrote: You can mass any unit, depending on your definition of mass. It was the only unit that you could make 100 of other than zerglings, if that's what you mean. But you can legitimately make 20+ mutas, which I consider a mass, or 50+ zerglings which I also consider a mass. Man, you have to try to play zerg before claiming something. Play something like 200 games, get to the top diamond and try defending multiple drops and Thor/scv push. This is a Bullshit. So easy for terran. Its from my own experience: I played like 160 games with terran initially, then I swithced to zerg to see why people are whining and played like 200 games... got frustrated with stupid loses where 40 apm terran a-moves me. Now I am playing terran again. It so easy to beat zergs that are way better than me. Believe it or not, I have beaten a decent zerg almost without using keyboard. Just my mouse and did couple thor drops. ZvT is far, very far from being balanced. I think that blizzard needs to change mechanics. Because in late game zerg totally dominates terran, and in early game its vice versa. | ||
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Moli
Netherlands78 Posts
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waffleduck
125 Posts
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PuppyFur
United States6 Posts
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:25 DonKey_ wrote: ...um does it not bother anyone that terrans wins are only so high cause morrow has won a grand total of 12! tournaments... this might be more conclusive if it was more evenly spread between the terran players. Did you read the entire post? Tournament winners by race: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) - 22![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/common/gold.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) - 12![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png) - 2 | ||
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xephon
Canada38 Posts
that's all about this post. | ||
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