EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 729
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On April 10 2011 05:38 Let it Raine wrote: he knows mc's good, and he knows mc's got insane micro. he just thinks his builds aren't as safe as they could be. I hope that most people in this topic stop criticizing the opinions of people on state of the game/elsewhere. It's getting to the point where I'm sure certain members of the cast will hold back on certain questions because they know if they say ANYTHING AT ALL in regards to the question that was asked, there will be 40 pages of hate messages and countless trolls every time they lose a game in the future. It's obnoxious and retarded, you people need to chill out. The posts that are tiring are something in the spirit of "lol! u just said that because u suck! your just jealous!" That's not actually criticizing the opinion, that's directed at the person. Criticism should not feel bad if you can see that the writer of a post actually took his time to look into the facts and ponder the arguments that formed the opinion. Criticism does also not necessarily mean that you disapprove. Perhaps you write a long post while following your train of thought and then end up with the same conclusions, despite your disapproval at the start of writing. So I hope you do not actually mean that you want people to stop criticizing. | ||
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redux46
Canada92 Posts
Looking at the GSL though, Zergs are doing fine against PvZ statistically. The fact that a Zerg has not won the whole thing (at least in Code S) since GSL2, is more that individual players have not won since then, not that Zergs are doing predominantly worse than Protoss. Are there other tournaments you can give me information on that show Zergs doing substantially worse? Looking at the GSL predominantly, Zergs are not doing significantly worse against Protoss. It is fairly even, which according to your criteria suggests that perhaps there is no imbalance. Including IEM, Zergs seem to be doing worse against Terran. GSL 3 had way more Zerg than Protoss, with Protoss just having a phenomenal 62.5% win rate against Terran and Terran having a 57% win rate against Zerg, thus it seems like Protoss is dominating Zergs. Code S January, equal number of Zerg and Protoss, Zerg makes it farther. Code A, January, equal number of Zerg and Protoss, both make it to round of 8, and lose to Terrans. Code A statistics favors protoss at 80%, but only 5 games played. TvZ is an even 50%, and PvT is a phenomenal 21.1% out of 19 games, favoring Terran. Code S March, one less Zerg than Protoss and make it to the final round. Code A March, more Zergs than Protoss, and wins. There are predominantly more Terrans overall in the GSL than both Zerg and Protoss, but individual Protoss have been doing well (MC). Zergs overall are not doing worse in GSL than Protoss. This is basically my point. All of the things that Idra was saying, were things that he feels are happening with the game, not the actual "State of the Game". That could be because Idra himself is in a slight slump in regards with how he plays against Protoss. The actual statistics, and Zerg performance in tournaments, does not seem to back this up. I've taken the ZvP stats from all the GSL events this year http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/individual-leagues#tblt-8315-1-default-0-gsl ZvP is 35:52 (40.2%) With a good sample of 87 total games, having a close to 60% win rate implies either on the whole there are better skilled protoss players and/or there is inherent difficulty in the race matchup. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
You are saying that Tyler isn't earning his spot on Team Liquid, when he outperformed every other Liquid member in the most recent tournament. How is it not relevant? | ||
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:02 RogerChillingworth wrote: Does anyone feel like Tyler isn't taking SC2 seriously? That, for a popular player headlining one of the most prestigious teams in the game currently, he isn't living up to what most other players--given the opportunity--would strive for? I have a feeling that if Tyler's spot on Team Liquid were offered to one of 7 or 8 dedicated, hard working players in the community (who, for instance, aren't sponsored or are sponsored but could be a valuable addition to liquid regardless), we'd see the passion to be the best player he or she could be. I don't want to get lambasted for calling Tyler out, but I've only chosen to say anything because it seems somewhat clear that his poor performance isn't due to a bad day or temporary slump. It's because he doesn't spend enough time playing the game and, given all the sponsorship and support of the community, it almost feels like a big middle finger to everyone rooting for him, liquid, and the success of e-sports. Now obviously Tyler is a great guy. He's intelligent, seasoned and is no doubt capable of being a tip-top player. I'm just wondering if he's taking full advantage of this amazing opportunity. The guy was in pretty damn good shape. He said so himself that his condition was not an issue and he's in the best playing shape of his SC2 career thus far, maybe he was in better shape when he was on eSTRO but I doubt thats the standard people are holding him to here. Look. Sometimes people lose. Even if you are really really good it is entirely possible to drop out of a few tournaments in a row. Especially when you are playing high caliber opponents, and especially when you don't play your best. It is hard to play your best, if it wasn't you would absolutely never see upsets in any competition ever. I think it goes without saying that regardless of who you think is the better player between Tyler and Thorzain neither was going to get a win without playing well. Today Nony just didn't have his best stuff, and Thorzain did. I don't think you can say much more about it than that. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
It was a long week. Tyler had not really played the ladder. Despite his bold statement that he would mount the masses and assert himself as #1 powerkid in NA he fell short. Terribly short. We are talking Machine without a booster seat short. This was good. I had planned on him failing. It was at this time that I began the search for the shirt. I employed my stream and JP. We did some work and found ourselves many a funny shirt. It was important to me that the shirt wasn't just some stupid inappropriate shirt that would get a chuckle and then be done. Also Tyler IS a pro so I didn't want to get him in trouble. The stream found dominatrix stuff, various penis joke shirts and even some girl clothes. None would do. Then one stream follower found THE FLUFFY SHIRT from Seinfeld. Amazing. Sick choice and insta buy. 2 months later I realized the shirt was never coming. Well played website. You can have my 30 dollars and lost dreams. I will hold your soul some day. It was at this time that many gave up. Many lost hope. The desert was long and hard. The people tired. I however never lost faith. I never surrendered and I never stopped. JP and I once again began the search. One night we found a website. This website made shirts. I think them serious... but they are anything but. I immediately ordered from this site and giggled for a day solid. A week passed.. another week passed and MLG Dallas closed in... it was at this time that I realized the entire shirt purchasing industry was indeed a scam. Did I lose faith? Did I lose hope, people? DID I? Yes. But today the shirt came. It will be great. The end. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:18 redux46 wrote: With a good sample of 87 total games, having a close to 60% win rate implies either on the whole there are better skilled protoss players and/or there is inherent difficulty in the race matchup. 87 is a meaningless sample. | ||
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phanto
Sweden708 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:23 iNcontroL wrote: But today the shirt came. It will be great. The end. Oh my god, the hype is unbearable! | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
 edit: Could this be it? ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/bcnM2.jpg) | ||
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GriNn
United States243 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:23 iNcontroL wrote: The shirt Journey (play on "short") by Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson (Grand Master Dragon and Pillar / Power Kid searcher) It was a long week. Tyler had not really played the ladder. Despite his bold statement that he would mount the masses and assert himself as #1 powerkid in NA he fell short. Terribly short. We are talking Machine without a booster seat short. This was good. I had planned on him failing. It was at this time that I began the search for the shirt. I employed my stream and JP. We did some work and found ourselves many a funny shirt. It was important to me that the shirt wasn't just some stupid inappropriate shirt that would get a chuckle and then be done. Also Tyler IS a pro so I didn't want to get him in trouble. The stream found dominatrix stuff, various penis joke shirts and even some girl clothes. None would do. Then one stream follower found THE FLUFFY SHIRT from Seinfeld. Amazing. Sick choice and insta buy. 2 months later I realized the shirt was never coming. Well played website. You can have my 30 dollars and lost dreams. I will hold your soul some day. It was at this time that many gave up. Many lost hope. The desert was long and hard. The people tired. I however never lost faith. I never surrendered and I never stopped. JP and I once again began the search. One night we found a website. This website made shirts. I think them serious... but they are anything but. I immediately ordered from this site and giggled for a day solid. A week passed.. another week passed and MLG Dallas closed in... it was at this time that I realized the entire shirt purchasing industry was indeed a scam. Did I lose faith? Did I lose hope, people? DID I? Yes. But today the shirt came. It will be great. The end. beautiful | ||
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redux46
Canada92 Posts
Well let's see if you're right and the sample size is too small to detect a difference. Using a binomial chart http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx and plugging in the values (ideal ZvP should be 50%, 87 total trials with 35 zerg wins) The probability that this is just a matter of zerg being unlucky at GSL is only 4.2%. So we can conclude with 95% certainty that in any ZvP at the GSL the protoss player will be favored. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3107 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:18 Tachion wrote: You are saying that Tyler isn't earning his spot on Team Liquid, when he outperformed every other Liquid member in the most recent tournament. How is it not relevant? Yeah, Tyler happened to perform better than his teammates in this tournament. But the circumstances of TSL 3 don't properly illustrate Tyler's performance in recent months, nor his attitude towards the game. If he or some trustworthy source says differently--that he's been practicing hard and playing a ton of games--then I stand corrected. Also, worth mentioning: Strelok made some significant mistakes in their match. Once Tyler hit an opponent with thought out builds and good execution, he fell apart. Not because he wasn't capable of rising to the challenge, but because he didn't rise to the challenge. | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:57 RogerChillingworth wrote: Yeah, Tyler happened to perform better than his teammates in this tournament. But the circumstances of TSL 3 don't properly illustrate Tyler's performance in recent months, nor his attitude towards the game. If he or some trustworthy source says differently--that he's been practicing hard and playing a ton of games--then I stand corrected. Also, worth mentioning: Strelok made some significant mistakes in their match. Once Tyler hit an opponent with thought out builds and good execution, he fell apart. Not because he wasn't capable of rising to the challenge, but because he didn't rise to the challenge. People have bad weeks, stuff went bad for him at mlg, it's easy to carry that around for a while afterwards. Suggesting that his "spot", if there is even a such a thing, on Liquid could be given to another player after what is essentially just one bad week would be premature. It's not like his performance at MLG was terrible either, it was just not as great as geoff's. There is no need to make a mountain out of a molehill. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:23 iNcontroL wrote: I will hold your soul some day. Hahahaha. Also can we get a promise that if the fluffy pirate shirt does every come that Tyler or you will wear it at an event? | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:18 redux46 wrote: I've taken the ZvP stats from all the GSL events this year http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/individual-leagues#tblt-8315-1-default-0-gsl ZvP is 35:52 (40.2%) With a good sample of 87 total games, having a close to 60% win rate implies either on the whole there are better skilled protoss players and/or there is inherent difficulty in the race matchup. Aah, thank you  . | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:23 iNcontroL wrote: The shirt Journey (play on "short") by Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson (Grand Master Dragon and Pillar / Power Kid searcher) It was a long week. Tyler had not really played the ladder. Despite his bold statement that he would mount the masses and assert himself as #1 powerkid in NA he fell short. Terribly short. We are talking Machine without a booster seat short. This was good. I had planned on him failing. It was at this time that I began the search for the shirt. I employed my stream and JP. We did some work and found ourselves many a funny shirt. It was important to me that the shirt wasn't just some stupid inappropriate shirt that would get a chuckle and then be done. Also Tyler IS a pro so I didn't want to get him in trouble. The stream found dominatrix stuff, various penis joke shirts and even some girl clothes. None would do. Then one stream follower found THE FLUFFY SHIRT from Seinfeld. Amazing. Sick choice and insta buy. 2 months later I realized the shirt was never coming. Well played website. You can have my 30 dollars and lost dreams. I will hold your soul some day. It was at this time that many gave up. Many lost hope. The desert was long and hard. The people tired. I however never lost faith. I never surrendered and I never stopped. JP and I once again began the search. One night we found a website. This website made shirts. I think them serious... but they are anything but. I immediately ordered from this site and giggled for a day solid. A week passed.. another week passed and MLG Dallas closed in... it was at this time that I realized the entire shirt purchasing industry was indeed a scam. Did I lose faith? Did I lose hope, people? DID I? Yes. But today the shirt came. It will be great. The end. I laughed, I cried, I look forward to pictures. <3 | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 10 2011 05:40 iNcontroL wrote: People. Today a package arrived. Within it's contents there was a shirt. This is no ordinary shirt. It is to be worn by one Tyler at MLG Cbus. The shirt can be described as epic/funny. It is happening... Oh my GAWD! | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:18 redux46 wrote: I've taken the ZvP stats from all the GSL events this year http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/individual-leagues#tblt-8315-1-default-0-gsl ZvP is 35:52 (40.2%) With a good sample of 87 total games, having a close to 60% win rate implies either on the whole there are better skilled protoss players and/or there is inherent difficulty in the race matchup. Just give some more detail into this let us look at the games more closely. Code S Jan ZvP 6:5 Code A Jan ZvP 1:4 Code S Mar ZvP 9:13 Code A Mar ZvP 8: 9 GSL S1 up/down ZvP 1:6 (Moon loses 4 wins 1, JookTo loses 2) Code A Mar Qualifiers ZvP 4:3 (MinSeOk wins 2, CoCa wins 2 loses 1, SiKaRi loses 2) Code S Mar Wildcard ZvP 2:0 (Jookto wins 2) GSL S2 Up/down ZvP 2:2 (Losira wins 2, Zenio loses 2) Code A May Qualifiers 2:10 (Terious loses 2, Moon loses 2 wins 1, Junwi loses 2, Royal loses 2, Cezanne loses 2 wins 1) Looking only at the actual Code S and Code A we have 24:31 which is 43.6%. Removing the last one which is at 2:10 we get 33:42 which is 44%. This indicates to me, that yes this does seem pretty bad, and it is not only because of one tournament (why I tested removing the last one which is at 2:10). Let's compare PvT: Code S Jan PvT 8:15 Code A Jan PvT 4:15 Code S Mar PvT 18:8 Code A Mar PvT 6: 7 GSL S1 up/down PvT 0:2 Code A Mar Qualifiers PvT 2:2 Code S Mar Wildcard PvT 0:0 GSL S2 Up/down PvT 4:5 Code A May Qualifiers PvT 2:6 Total 44:60 (42.3%) only CodeS/Code A 36:45 (44.4%) This indicates to me that PvT is broken, and Terran should be nerfed. Do you see the flaw in the reasoning? In my original post I included how far Zergs had made it in tournaments, not just the statistical results to show that individual Zergs are doing pretty well. I think although 87 sounds like a lot, and I appreciated that you did the statistical analysis to show that it was significant, you have to remember that this is not 87 different Protoss versus 87 different Zerg. Moon has 8 games in the 87, making his results almost 1/10 of the data. What is good about you actually checking it, shows that my reasoning is flawed as well. I cannot actually claim that ZvP is not doing well, but then neither can Zergs claim that ZvP is broken. We need more data. 87 results, of which a few players make up a lot of it, cannot be enough to get a good read on this. My reasoning depended on how individual Zergs have been doing in tournaments (relatively well although not quite as well compared to individual Protoss, making it just as far most of the time). That is clearly flawed. Your reasoning depended on how Zergs overall are doing, which I think is the better way, but with too few samples. Either way, I don't think calls for balance are justified considering how few games we have to judge it by. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
I wonder what Nestea's or Sen's record been against Toss the past 3 months. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
On April 10 2011 06:23 iNcontroL wrote: But today the shirt came. It will be great. The end. lmao I was wondering what the post on twitter was about ... hilarious | ||
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