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Oh how funny this is.
You see people scream their lungs out for a terran to defend their race and to prove to everyone that there's imbalance.
Terran enters the next show. Has a rational discussion where they seem to reach the conclusion that there has not been enough time for a new metagame to evolve.
Same people screaming for the balance discussion to take place, now continue to completely ignore that it even happened, but instead focus on that avilo got kicked off the show.
Moral of the story: never listen to what the community wants, they don't even know it themselves
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On June 29 2012 13:04 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 12:49 Aocowns wrote:On June 29 2012 12:43 Theovide wrote:On June 29 2012 12:36 xOny wrote:
Why on earth would you bring Avilo on anyway?
He's always just been a balance whiner, last month he made a blog dedicated to complaining about TvP, and apparently since TvZ is the new flavor of the month for terran balance whiners, he has taken that up too.
I don't think anyone would want to hear a conversation about balance w/ someone of such an idiotic/annoying mentality. To be fair though, IdrA has also always been a balance whiner, so with that logic he shouldn't have been brought on either. Well to be fair almost everything Idra whined about got touched on by patches in some way. If you listen to what he says instead of that he is simply saying something lol he is usually not completely wrong or *completely* wrong. Besides, Avilo is on an entirely new level of whine imo( Prolly slightly biased, but it's an opinion shared by pretty much everyone so there you go  ) Uhm no? I have no clue how biased Avilo is, he might be much worse, but IdrA is definitely biased, and everything he has whined on has definitely not been touched on by patches. For example he've whined about PvZ forever without it being changed much at all. Also, he whined to Illusion saying something like "bullshit you can't win vs this" or something when they played, and then ended up winning without a problem plowing through illusions 200 food army with his bling ultra infestor. And that was in this patch, I mean one could argue that TvZ is balanced, or that it's zerg favoured, since the patch, but arguing that TvZ is bullshit and zerg can't win is quite incredible, especially as the reason he was close to losing was because he got outmultitasked (it looked like illusion was going to win by mass drop play).
Avilo is biased, and yes, Idra is biased. Don't twist my words, I said almost. Probably a bit of an overstatement, but most of what he has been serious about(Don't count semi serious balance comments in Idra's ladder games because that's silly, especially when he plays with friends) Yes, Idra's ZvP whine was stupid before, but unless I remember patch history wrong, Blizzard did in fact think the Protoss deathball was too strong, and hey buffed the infestors, which then later spawned a new metagame and further patching. Beyond that, a LOT of what he has said for ZvT has been touched on, namely bunkers, early raxes and shit, ghosts and the list goes on. Just FYI, Idra has previously said that zerg is slightly favoured in the current metagame
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In my opinion the main problem for the whole TvZ debate was, that idra and qxc are completely different kind of people. Qxc is polite and in my opinion more objective than idra. So they had to find a better counterpart for idra (in my opinion they should have found one for qxc) and avilo was invited and shit hit the fan.
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On June 29 2012 12:52 Cwall(Progamer) wrote:
Okay so here is the situation so far
-Avilo askes politely in chat last week about coming on to discuss the current state of TvZ. Fans in the chat want him on because he knows his stuff
As many people have already brought up, most of these "fans" were only interested in hearing him argue with IdrA. They are both known for having a huge bias towards their respective races. I mean, Avilo has around 60 people in his fan club, does that really make even some kind of majority in the THOUSANDS of people that watch SotG live?
-JP says no because geoff is the terran expert for the week; Geoff "InControl" Robinson states "I spend the entireity of my time being surrendered by professional pro starcraft players and I discuss strategy with them, I guarentee you I know more about terran than 99.999% of you listening."
JP didn't have Avilo come on because Geoff was the Terran for the week. I actually just relistened to that episode today and when it was brought up, Geoff was talking about how people were complaining about them talking about Terran when there were no Terrans.
-SotG makes fun of avilo for even wanting to come on, they don't let him on that week
Yes I'll give you that one.
this week
-Avilo comes on
Fact.
-Everyone is hyped up because State of the Old Boys Club have been talking about how "fucking retarded" (idra on this state of the games epsiode) avilo is
Everyone is hyped up because they know some kind of shit talking is going to come out, not an actual discussion. And this continued "Old Boys Club" doesn't really lend yourself towards an unbalanced comment.
-everyone excepts avilo to be a loud mouth guy and start screaming profanities
Go on....
-Avilo is actually well spoken, goes over several points; expanding onto what qxc was trying to explain earlier and bringing up new discussion including how zergs can safely get to 3 bases and all-in from there, while if the terran goes 3cc he is extremely vulernable to zerg attacks (while the zerg is not)
QXC was mentioning how the 3CC opening was an extremely solid opening, but its a weakness of his because of his weaker macro.
-idra tells avilo to "shut the fuck up" and incontrol and the old boys continue to make fun of him
More of this useless "old boys club". Similarly, you completely ignore the parts when IdrA was being interrupted by Avilo during this, Avilo isn't exactly innocent in this.
-JP kicks him off the show after the being made the jester of The State of The Game.
JP kicked him off in order to stop this extremely ugly now just verbal insults. There is nothing to be gained from having on the show still with how people were acting.
I can't be the only one who has a problem with this. It's very disrespectful as a community and even to our sponsors. I would feel ashamed if I was MLG about this - JP provoked and elevated a situation which wasn't going to be a "racial slang throwing contest." He didn't butt in when idras only responses to Avilo were "shut the fuck up" and other ad hoimen. This episode of state of the game draws the line for me not only as a high level player that enjoys hearing high level discussion, but also as a spectator. It promotes the image that SC2 is a very immature community and that we'll fling shit at you if you disagree. I'm disappointed in this episode of state of the game, JP for acting irresponibility, idra for not being able to have a well-thought out discussion with out resorting to race jokes and incontrol for pushing them both along.
Yes, I can agree with you that this SotG wasn't the best one. It would be nice if JP would stop listening to the chat in finding new people to bring on.
Absolutely disgusting
Yeah, not the best SotG, but this was def not the world's fairest analysis of the whole episode.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
I don't understand this show anymore. I remember when they actually made some interesting conversations. It's probably me, but i just can't follow what the fuck they talk about for hours. Also all this deep and "elitist" discussion about the starcraft... i don't like it. I like korean deep disscusion - djelot! - good unit, op! They say so simple stuff and then shine on the battle field. Idra says some high level philosophical observations and discoveries about the game and what does he do on tournaments - he gets angry and loses, yet he understands the game and has valid points?? Whatever.
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Wow Idra attacking avilo constantly and JP instantly cutting avilo off. Basically saying avilo is shit and not answering anything against him except saying hes shit. What a ridiculous show. Avilo's points weren't as concise as they could of been, but he didn't go off of any rant or anything ridiculous yet Idra and Incontrol completely shitting on him for no reason other then hes avilo. These people on this show are completely biased and clearly only invited him on to completely bash him. If you are going to do something so juvenile, simply don't invite him on.
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On June 29 2012 13:06 Cwall(Progamer) wrote:
1) If I'm a sponsor, I don't want to be affliated with someone who resorts to hate speech and ad homien so quick in a "debate"
You're blowing it WAY out of proportion. He told a guy to stfu and made a condescending remark. Let's please not talk about sponsors not getting involved over something that trivial. It's absolutely ridiculous.
2) If I'm a player, I don't want to come onto the show only to be made fun of being it's "xD come into our tree if you want, oops bye!" then kicks you out of the skype call.
If you're a player, you don't want to go onto that show... well Avilo is a player, and he DID want to go on the show. I don't see how that is relevant.
Besides, you are playing it out as if they all took turns repeatedly throwing personal insults or something like that. Come on... are you honestly convinced that this was some kind of fucking atrocity? Please...
3) If I'm a spectator, I don't want to watch pros with next to no results in 2012 call "MKP a peice of shit who doesn't know what he is talking about"
I'm not sure where this is coming from now. Just disagree with him on that then. If a line like that is too much for you to handle, then perhaps the show is not for you.
I disagree with what IdrA said about MKP as well, and I am also not even saying that IdrA handled the situation with Avilo well... I just think that half the people here are doing their best to be the biggest drama queens.
I just want a good, real talk, no fluff, show that anyone can enjoy. SotG was like that many months ago, more than I can count, but at the moment I'm going to have to invest in another show to get quality starcraft content.
Okay that's fine... though once again not relevant to the points you were initially making. If you feel that way, then just say that plainly as many people have rather than posting a very long, incredibly biased post trying to portray SOTG as negatively as you can.
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On June 29 2012 13:10 nkr wrote:
Oh how funny this is.
You see people scream their lungs out for a terran to defend their race and to prove to everyone that there's imbalance.
Terran enters the next show. Has a rational discussion where they seem to reach the conclusion that there has not been enough time for a new metagame to evolve.
Same people screaming for the balance discussion to take place, now continue to completely ignore that it even happened, but instead focus on that avilo got kicked off the show.
Moral of the story: never listen to what the community wants, they don't even know it themselves
+1
User was warned for this post
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Just rewatched the debate.
Idra was acting incredibly civil up until the point where he talks about Terran not having the economy to tech switch like Zerg then they will lose if they make the wrong decision where Avilo then buts in to make a point and Idra tells him to shut the fuck up and attempts to continue on.
Avilo then raises his voice and says "Hey hey hey" and Incontrol says didn't you say to Idra let you finish? and then Avilo says he's agreeing with Idra on Zergs having the economy (which was not what Idra was even remotely talking about)
How are you guys making ridiculous conclusions from the same set of events that I just saw there?
Idra then made some more points and then Avilo tried to but in ato which Idra shut him down by calling him fucking bad and then Avilo says he's agreing with Idra again which Idra says he isn't and then Avilo says he is agreeing with idra when he gets cut out
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On June 29 2012 13:06 Cwall(Progamer) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 12:57 Chicane wrote:On June 29 2012 12:52 Cwall(Progamer) wrote:
Okay so here is the situation so far
-Avilo askes politely in chat last week about coming on to discuss the current state of TvZ. Fans in the chat want him on because he knows his stuff
-JP says no because geoff is the terran expert for the week; Geoff "InControl" Robinson states "I spend the entireity of my time being surrendered by professional pro starcraft players and I discuss strategy with them, I guarentee you I know more about terran than 99.999% of you listening."
-SotG makes fun of avilo for even wanting to come on, they don't let him on that week
this week
-Avilo comes on
-Everyone is hyped up because State of the Old Boys Club have been talking about how "fucking retarded" (idra on this state of the games epsiode) avilo is
-everyone excepts avilo to be a loud mouth guy and start screaming profanities
-Avilo is actually well spoken, goes over several points; expanding onto what qxc was trying to explain earlier and bringing up new discussion including how zergs can safely get to 3 bases and all-in from there, while if the terran goes 3cc he is extremely vulernable to zerg attacks (while the zerg is not)
-idra tells avilo to "shut the fuck up" and incontrol and the old boys continue to make fun of him
-JP kicks him off the show after the being made the jester of The State of The Game.
I can't be the only one who has a problem with this. It's very disrespectful as a community and even to our sponsors. I would feel ashamed if I was MLG about this - JP provoked and elevated a situation which wasn't going to be a "racial slang throwing contest." He didn't butt in when idras only responses to Avilo were "shut the fuck up" and other ad hoimen. This episode of state of the game draws the line for me not only as a high level player that enjoys hearing high level discussion, but also as a spectator. It promotes the image that SC2 is a very immature community and that we'll fling shit at you if you disagree. I'm disappointed in this episode of state of the game, JP for acting irresponibility, idra for not being able to have a well-thought out discussion with out resorting to race jokes and incontrol for pushing them both along.
Absolutely disgusting I'm being sincere when I ask this. Can you please just admit that your post is full of bias, for your sanity and my own? Thanks in advance. Edit: Dear lord... I just read the post above this one... How is this... Wow. Sorry, it is biased. I have a gracken t-shirt (available at Here), I root for incontrol in his MLG runs, and I appreciate the work that jp does for the communinty. But, I believe in the law first and foremost. I'm real and talk. I don't ignore bullshit that happens whether it supports or hurts my cause. This is over the line and is very unprofessional. Most importantly are these issues 1) If I'm a sponsor, I don't want to be affliated with someone who resorts to hate speech and ad homien so quick in a "debate" 2) If I'm a player, I don't want to come onto the show only to be made fun of being it's "xD come into our tree if you want, oops bye!" then kicks you out of the skype call. 3) If I'm a spectator, I don't want to watch pros with next to no results in 2012 call "MKP a peice of shit who doesn't know what he is talking about" I just want a good, real talk, no fluff, show that anyone can enjoy. SotG was like that many months ago, more than I can count, but at the moment I'm going to have to invest in another show to get quality starcraft content.
lol the irony. You pretty much left out every key thing that isn't against the SotG hosts, and u don't even realise it too. Heavy bias towards avilo, even conveniently leaving out the part of the discussion where avilo was a completely idiot.
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On June 29 2012 13:04 Rocor wrote:
The Idea to bring avilo on was good, but the idea to have another debate style vs idra was bad
the hosts should have just let him chime in on the topic, said goodbye, then discussed what he said
from what I have read his opinions and arguments are pretty... interesting
The only reason they brought Avilo on was for the entertainment factor. He had no new points to make, he was passive aggressive towards Idra and Incontrol, and he had nothing to say that QXC did not say earlier more clearly and in a neutral voice. Since when has Avilo's opinion on balance discussion ever been respected in the community? He used to suggest zergs to go mass nydus back in the day when ZvT was super hard.
What were people expecting? Idra and QXC had an hour and a half of civilized and exhaustive debate on ZvT balance... Do you seriously, do people seriously believe that JP brought Avilo on to actually ADD ON to the discussion? To match QXC's knowledge? To match his neutral tone? It was clearly a mistake for JP to bring him on. The THOUGHT of bringing him into the debate ended up being funnier than actually bringing him on. They need to bring on Morrow again if they want to discuss TvZ balance more. I think everyone can agree that he understands ZvT and TvZ at a very high level.
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Well, as everyone else is using this thread as a place to dump their opinion, I guess I will as well.
I feel extremely bad for Idra. Idra was going on the show to debate with QXC. QXC is a smart individual who Idra obviously respects and can have a discussion with. The points they discussed were actually very well, and what I got out of it was we need to wait and see where the meta ends up, if Terran are able to find those weaknesses, if they are able to get that super army QXC was talking about, etc etc. It was a good discussion for both parties.
Than Avilo gets called on unplanned. Idra obviously didn't know he was coming on, and pretty much asked JP not to bring him on. Idra than gets put into a tight spot. He can either ague with someone who he has no respect for, and he knows is unreasonable when it comes to balance complaints(lets face it, Avilo has time and time again shown to be unreasonable, and this time wasn't an exception). Or he can refuse to talk to him, hang up, leave, whatever, and look like a complete dick that refuses to give Avilo the time of day. He decides he'll let Geoff have a laugh and try to get through it without snapping, and as expected Avilo ended up using horrible reasoning, bad arguments(so Zerg can hit 80 drones with only queens you say?) while constantly interrupting Idra. Idra snaps, and this happened. I'm actually surprised Idra lasted as long as he did. I really wish Idra wasn't put into this position. He already gets enough negative attention as it is, this was a lose-lose situation, no matter what.
JP should have realized that the constant jokes that were directed towards Avilo meant that Avilo should not be on the show. I can't blame him for his actions after he brought Avilo on. The picture was unfortunate, but it is actually the first(and only) picture of Avilo on google, that is on the front page at least. The screamer actually made me laugh really hard, and shows that JP wasn't paying the discussion any real attention at that point. Than when Idra asked JP to kick Avilo off after Avilo stopped actually discussing points and started repeating himself JP kicked him off. You can say he should have been good mannered and said sorry you have to leave or whatever, but the longer he was on the show the worse it was going to get.
Geoff shouldn't have instigated it. Nothing more to really add, he shouldn't have asked JP to bring him on. When Avilo was on Geoff wasn't a complete dick or anything, just told him to get on with the discussion and than asked him to let Idra speak.
Avilo knew what was coming, and I have no idea why the fuck he wanted to be on. He knows Geoff and Idra dislike him. He knew they had already discussed balance, as he said he was listening to it. I feel like he went on to try and make everyone look like an ass, which in my eyes he failed to do. He made himself look like an ass even more than them, at the very least. Not only was he a dick when he was trying to debate with Idra, but his post in this thread also comes off as "oh poor me, I didn't do anything wrong and got picked on". This is like the kid getting picked on going to the bullies house and knocking on the front door and trying to arm wrestle him. Of course its not going to end well.
I really hope SOTG stops bringing on random guests. It was an awesome show other than this whole incident. Also, props to Huk for getting JP, best part of the show other than the real great debate. I also think Huk being in the box with that face on it was awesome. You guys need to get Huk on the show again while he's still in the states, don't waste your chance!
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On June 29 2012 13:14 Denzil wrote:
Just rewatched the debate.
Idra was acting incredibly civil up until the point where he talks about Terran not having the economy to tech switch like Zerg then they will lose if they make the wrong decision where Avilo then buts in to make a point and Idra tells him to shut the fuck up and attempts to continue on.
Avilo then raises his voice and says "Hey hey hey" and Incontrol says didn't you say to Idra let you finish? and then Avilo says he's agreeing with Idra on Zergs having the economy (which was not what Idra was even remotely talking about)
How are you guys making ridiculous conclusions from the same set of events that I just saw there?
Some people see the world through different lenses.
Some people see the world through those drunk goggles.
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I really don't understand why anyone would try to dismiss IdrA's feelings on the game. He's clearly extremely knowledgeable about it. People wouldn't let their own biases allow them to dismiss IdrA as biased, would they?
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Pretty disgusting how they treated Avilo. JP should be embarrassed, and Idra is who we knew he was. A child. It was embarrassing.
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On June 29 2012 13:09 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 12:54 xOny wrote:On June 29 2012 12:40 Shiori wrote:On June 29 2012 12:39 Shaddar wrote:On June 29 2012 12:38 Shiori wrote:On June 29 2012 12:37 Aocowns wrote:On June 29 2012 12:36 Shiori wrote:On June 29 2012 12:34 PanN wrote:On June 29 2012 12:32 Shiori wrote:On June 29 2012 12:30 PanN wrote:
[quote]
Luckily I didn't say that. Also you know the people you debate? Yeah, I doubt both people in your argument have a history of loathing each other and were forced to speak right? Yeah, thats right. Nobody here was forced to speak. Idra could very easily have said he didn't wish to appear tonight on SotG, much like other people have done. I have no idea why you're making so many excuses for an adult. Because someone doesn't like you is no excuse to attack their character. Just look at Avilo. He managed to get through the discussion without flaming much at all. And no, interrupting is not flaming. He didn't know avilo was showing up making your entire point invalid. I'm not making excuses for him, you're clearly not reading what I'm writing (based on your last post and this one) if you think I'm just making excuses. One of the magical things about Skype is that you can hang up when someone you don't like joins the call. And yes, that would have been infinitely less rude than berating someone just because you don't like him. What is this, kindergarten? Can people seriously not control themselves just because they have a bad history with someone? Do you seriously think it would be the right thing of Idra to do to just hang up on them because Avilo came? No, I think the right thing to do would have been to act civilly, but since Idra is apparently incapable of that (judging by the excuses people have been making for him) hanging up would have been a happy compromise. Oh come on you would not be able to act civilly when talking to someone you really don't like and respect, I know I wouldn't. When I don't act civilly in a public forum just because I don't like someone, I get in trouble. Look at professional sports. What happens when two players who don't like each other let personal issues into the game or press conference or whatever? They get reprimanded. It's simple. Did you email EG when IdrA refused to shake crunchers hand at an MLG? Or when he flipped off HuK way back then? IdrA is not the type of person to supress his emotions towards other people. Stop being so self-entitled and settle down. Two massive personality's crashed and emotions flew, that is all.. to feel like you have to take matters into your own hands shows how truely inflated your own ego actually is.. Huh, basically what you are saying is that because IdrA has been a dick before, he should be allowed to be a dick again without any reprocussion? I think it's kind of weird with the things idra can get away with that other people cannot.
Interesting point. Something that's also interesting is NaNi vs IdrA in that circumstance. Riveting stuff.
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idra/incontrol acting like immature 12 year olds?
nothing new to me.
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On June 29 2012 13:20 laharl23 wrote:
idra/incontrol acting like immature 12 year olds?
nothing new to me.
People in the community being flippant and sanctimonious?
Color me surprised.
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On June 29 2012 13:17 draumr wrote:
Avilo knew what was coming, and I have no idea why the fuck he wanted to be on. He knows Geoff and Idra dislike him. He knew they had already discussed balance, as he said he was listening to it. I feel like he went on to try and make everyone look like an ass, which in my eyes he failed to do. He made himself look like an ass even more than them, at the very least. Not only was he a dick when he was trying to debate with Idra, but his post in this thread also comes off as "oh poor me, I didn't do anything wrong and got picked on". This is like the kid getting picked on going to the bullies house and knocking on the front door and trying to arm wrestle him. Of course its not going to end well.
Because he got invited to the popular table. Do you know why unpopular kids always accept invintation to the popular table? its not a hard guess. Also any publicity is good publicity when you don't have that big of a base. Maybe avilo EXPECTS that they would act PROFESSIONALLY so he can get his views across to viewers and have a chance to voice his opinions and redeem the bad image ppl had of him
at least, that was my expectation.
p.s not trying to link avilo = not popular, but compare to the viewers SOTG gets, quite comparable.
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On June 29 2012 13:14 Denzil wrote:
Just rewatched the debate.
Idra was acting incredibly civil up until the point where he talks about Terran not having the economy to tech switch like Zerg then they will lose if they make the wrong decision where Avilo then buts in to make a point and Idra tells him to shut the fuck up and attempts to continue on.
Avilo then raises his voice and says "Hey hey hey" and Incontrol says didn't you say to Idra let you finish? and then Avilo says he's agreeing with Idra on Zergs having the economy (which was not what Idra was even remotely talking about)
How are you guys making ridiculous conclusions from the same set of events that I just saw there?
Idra then made some more points and then Avilo tried to but in ato which Idra shut him down by calling him fucking bad and then Avilo says he's agreing with Idra again which Idra says he isn't and then Avilo says he is agreeing with idra when he gets cut out
Still a dick move to cut him off over something as trivial as that. I think IdrA and JP behaved a bit out-of-line.
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EPT
