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On May 27 2012 23:53 NovemberstOrm wrote:
The latest SOTG was severely disappointing the amount of "hate" and disrespect is unbelievable. Incontrol started shitting on LS for no reason same with darkforce and socke making shit up with absolutely no evidence of anything just riding the troll train with incontrol, sure he was invited, he may not be the most "known player" but that doesn't matter at all, I mean he practices in korea he's a korean grandmaster/master player he's beaten many high level players, losira,tails,etc Day9 watched his stream many a time and saw potential for him to do well, he did 0-6 in his group but he was against some of the best players in the world. I could bash incontrol for his own play but that would be immature and achieve nothing.In his games LS showed definite skill even though he did get beat pretty bad in the games, he was definitely an under-dog and now people will on him worse because he got smashed, do you think he likes that? I could go on for hours but ya.... very disappointed into what SOTG has become, a show to shit on people making mistakes, while having fans of the show bash them, and what's funny is the ones who make the most mistakes in accordance to their careers are on the show.
Anyway what's this about him missing? he deleted his twitter? what happened? anyone know?
So you think it was a mistake from day9 to invite LS? Well, i see that you have the exact same opinion as Incontrol on this matter, but i still think the decision was acceptable. I think inviting someone like Scarlett, Vibe, yata, etc. would have been better. These players have shown that they can compete but still don't have made it to the well known players.
ps: You maybe could have bashed Incontrol's play, if he would have said that he wanted LS's spot. But he didn't.
And i don't really understand your last sentence.
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i think people are missing the point here. incontrol wasn't shitting on lastshadow as a person, he said day9/redbull management made a questionable decision by inviting him. the games that happened didn't do the best job of proving him wrong, although the argument can be made that a lot of foreigners - and even some koreans - would have had a really hard time in that group.
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On May 27 2012 23:53 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Day9 watched his stream many a time and saw potential for him to do well,
Geoff's point wasn't that Nick is an inferior player necessarily; his point was that his invite has to do with his relationship with Sean. Maybe he has potential, maybe he doesn't, but it's pretty hard to argue that he's a more interesting invite than ThorZain (who was a fill-in) or DeMuslim. Ret would have been a pretty huge draw, or perhaps Socke, who's had pretty awesome results. What about Grubby - he'd be a really nice draw, and the tournament doesn't have quite as many Protoss players. How about Kas or Happy? CrazymovinG would have been really cool to see, in my opinion, and if you wanted another NA player Axslav is far more active than LS has been.
I'm sure Day had good reasons for wanting LastShadow to be there. I'm sure some of them were gameplay-related. But it's hard for me to believe that that's the only thing. In 2012, LS has been featured in one Daily. Sheth has been in four. Zenio has been in three. Stephano has been in four. That's evidence of interesting gameplay.
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On May 28 2012 00:23 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:53 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Day9 watched his stream many a time and saw potential for him to do well, Geoff's point wasn't that Nick is an inferior player necessarily; his point was that his invite has to do with his relationship with Sean. Maybe he has potential, maybe he doesn't, but it's pretty hard to argue that he's a more interesting invite than ThorZain (who was a fill-in) or DeMuslim. Ret would have been a pretty huge draw, or perhaps Socke, who's had pretty awesome results. What about Grubby - he'd be a really nice draw, and the tournament doesn't have quite as many Protoss players. How about Kas or Happy? CrazymovinG would have been really cool to see, in my opinion, and if you wanted another NA player Axslav is far more active than LS has been. I'm sure Day had good reasons for wanting LastShadow to be there. I'm sure some of them were gameplay-related. But it's hard for me to believe that that's the only thing. In 2012, LS has been featured in one Daily. Sheth has been in four. Zenio has been in three. Stephano has been in four. That's evidence of interesting gameplay.
To be fair, LS has been featured in two dailies, and featured on the Artosis Hour.
I however, agree. Lastshadow was in the hardest group in the entire tournament. Replacing Puzzle with Squirtle was an extreme difficulty spike and Parting has the best PvT in the world, and Ret is a macro monster. There was no way LS was gonna win against any of those three, but what mattered is how he lost.
+ Show Spoiler [Redbull Spoilers] +Illusion and Ostojiy were also underdogs, but they showed very strong gameplay and skill, especially Illusion despite geting shat all over by Stephano. There was nothing "strong" about Lastshadow's play this tournament. He went a really poor mech build and needlessly lost banshees left and right, then for some reason decided to push out with his suboptimal army which immediately died. Then Ret completely figured him out second game, macro'd like a beast, and killed him with a 170 supply army against LS's mere 90 supply army.
Then vs Squirtle he went CC first but failed to place his buildings correctly (something that Day9 elaborated on in one of his LS-specific dailies) and had a severely delayed first marine while the zealot lol'd most the SCVs. The second game looked interesting, but it lagged out, but in the regame LS did a proxy factory and his Marauder/Hellion timing failed hard due to the Immortal, then later one he lost his scouting factory while failing to produce an Armory (a very rookie-like mistake), which means he could only have 1-1 upgrades on his bio. He's forced to All-in.
He forfeit his game vs Parting because he knew he sucked so bad.
If you told me that Lastshadow was GM on the Korean ladder, I wouldn't believe it, just purely from those games. Did Day9 invite Lastshadow because he's friends with him? Yes, I don't see why anyone would go against that, but I don't see that as a bad thing either, despite what Incontrol believes. However, it's quite obvious that LS is far from the calibur of any other player in that tournament right now.
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On May 28 2012 00:52 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 00:23 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On May 27 2012 23:53 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Day9 watched his stream many a time and saw potential for him to do well, Geoff's point wasn't that Nick is an inferior player necessarily; his point was that his invite has to do with his relationship with Sean. Maybe he has potential, maybe he doesn't, but it's pretty hard to argue that he's a more interesting invite than ThorZain (who was a fill-in) or DeMuslim. Ret would have been a pretty huge draw, or perhaps Socke, who's had pretty awesome results. What about Grubby - he'd be a really nice draw, and the tournament doesn't have quite as many Protoss players. How about Kas or Happy? CrazymovinG would have been really cool to see, in my opinion, and if you wanted another NA player Axslav is far more active than LS has been. I'm sure Day had good reasons for wanting LastShadow to be there. I'm sure some of them were gameplay-related. But it's hard for me to believe that that's the only thing. In 2012, LS has been featured in one Daily. Sheth has been in four. Zenio has been in three. Stephano has been in four. That's evidence of interesting gameplay. To be fair, LS has been featured in two dailies, and featured on the Artosis Hour. I however, agree. Lastshadow was in the hardest group in the entire tournament. Replacing Puzzle with Squirtle was an extreme difficulty spike and Parting has the best PvT in the world, and Ret is a macro monster. There was no way LS was gonna win against any of those three, but what mattered is how he lost. + Show Spoiler [Redbull Spoilers] +Illusion and Ostojiy were also underdogs, but they showed very strong gameplay and skill, especially Illusion despite geting shat all over by Stephano. There was nothing "strong" about Lastshadow's play this tournament. He went a really poor mech build and needlessly lost banshees left and right, then for some reason decided to push out with his suboptimal army which immediately died. Then Ret completely figured him out second game, macro'd like a beast, and killed him with a 170 supply army against LS's mere 90 supply army.
Then vs Squirtle he went CC first but failed to place his buildings correctly (something that Day9 elaborated on in one of his LS-specific dailies) and had a severely delayed first marine while the zealot lol'd most the SCVs. The second game looked interesting, but it lagged out, but in the regame LS did a proxy factory and his Marauder/Hellion timing failed hard due to the Immortal, then later one he lost his scouting factory while failing to produce an Armory (a very rookie-like mistake), which means he could only have 1-1 upgrades on his bio. He's forced to All-in.
He forfeit his game vs Parting because he knew he sucked so bad. If you told me that Lastshadow was GM on the Korean ladder, I wouldn't believe it, just purely from those games. Did Day9 invite Lastshadow because he's friends with him? Yes, I don't see why anyone would go against that, but I don't see that as a bad thing either, despite what Incontrol believes. However, it's quite obvious that LS is far from the calibur of any other player in that tournament right now.
I think this is a really good post, totally agree with it.
As much as I wanted LS to do well, he had an incredibly difficult situation since the moment he was invited. He was continuously called out as a liar and a cheat (even if he has apologized in public numerous times), then given, like you said, the hardest group in the entire tournament. Every player in LS's group had a large amount of tournament experience, and I really think that lack of experience w tournaments + dealing with the plane ride/sickness was a huge amount of what went wrong with his play last night.
It doesn't really help either that his builds were leaked to his strongest opponents, and I would imagine it's very discouraging to know that the players you would have had the hardest time with have your number if they decided to review whoever was leaked from LS's practice.
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Canada16217 Posts
On May 28 2012 00:10 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:53 NovemberstOrm wrote:
The latest SOTG was severely disappointing the amount of "hate" and disrespect is unbelievable. Incontrol started shitting on LS for no reason same with darkforce and socke making shit up with absolutely no evidence of anything just riding the troll train with incontrol, sure he was invited, he may not be the most "known player" but that doesn't matter at all, I mean he practices in korea he's a korean grandmaster/master player he's beaten many high level players, losira,tails,etc Day9 watched his stream many a time and saw potential for him to do well, he did 0-6 in his group but he was against some of the best players in the world. I could bash incontrol for his own play but that would be immature and achieve nothing.In his games LS showed definite skill even though he did get beat pretty bad in the games, he was definitely an under-dog and now people will on him worse because he got smashed, do you think he likes that? I could go on for hours but ya.... very disappointed into what SOTG has become, a show to shit on people making mistakes, while having fans of the show bash them, and what's funny is the ones who make the most mistakes in accordance to their careers are on the show.
Anyway what's this about him missing? he deleted his twitter? what happened? anyone know? So you think it was a mistake from day9 to invite LS? Well, i see that you have the exact same opinion as Incontrol on this matter, but i still think the decision was acceptable. I think inviting someone like Scarlett, Vibe, yata, etc. would have been better. These players have shown that they can compete but still don't have made it to the well known players. ps: You maybe could have bashed Incontrol's play, if he would have said that he wanted LS's spot. But he didn't. And i don't really understand your last sentence.
No sorry if I worded that wrong it's really late. What I meant was he was definitely an underdog but had the potential to upset like I said he's beaten good players before,it wasn't a "wrong" decision .
edit:also this http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/u70hp/lastshadow_forfeits_vs_parting_leaves_redbull_lan/
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I dont really get the hate agaisnt LS either, put any other US player in that group and he would go 0-6 as well and wasnt LS just a quick replacement for Naniwa anyway?
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Yeah, LastShadow is a stand-up person stop hating on him! He has such nice olive-toned skin and big hazel nut cutie eyes that if you look straight into them you may pass out from experiencing so much beauty in one glance.
-_-'
good SOTG!
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Just so sad how hateful this community can be.
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On May 28 2012 02:05 Klipsys wrote:
Just so sad how hateful this community can be.
not really...it's pretty simple: people thought other players deserved an invite over LS --> LS gets roflstomped in his group. would others havE? maybe, but nothing he did justified his spot over others, especially given his being unknown for over a year. And a year, in a 2 year old game, is a long time.
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Really nice SOTG.
The whole LS thing is completely overblown, let's look at what the individual people said:
Incontrol: Does not like the invite, because he is NOT a newcomer in the scene, but friends with Day9.
Socke: Told a story of how he beat him 2 years ago in a MLG, where LS went for a all-in with SCVs.
Darkforce: Stated that LS played in a MLG around 2010 and has not played after anything then.
Can anybody point out to me, where they were hating and where the fuck was Socke or DF making shit up. Of course they are trying to troll the people from NA, that is what is done on SotG. Just like the europbashing.
Also, if he was just invited to give him exposure, why not invite somebody, who is younger like mouzHeromarine.
About the episode, i really enjoyed the talk about the game, like balance and patches and stuff. Way more entertaining than the whole gossip bit.
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really loved this episode. had a very good flow imo 
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I love how people single in on one moment in the show, when they dont' even know how much of a troll incontrol was being (he's always at least 1% troll :-D, <3 You Geoff!)
I thought this was one of the best SotG ever. I was thoroughly entertained. I loved having some foreigner insight (i'm american, so anyboy who is not American is a foreigner to me)
Also whatever clip is at the beginning of the MP3, was simply brilliant. I had to re-listen to it because it was so funny, I couldn't hear parts due to my giggling.
Keep em coming boys!
QUESTIONS FOR SoTG!
THere was a point in the show where someone started talking about Map Pools, and Vetoes, and Tournament formats. I wish someone had picked up on that side comment and started a conversation about it, because I think it would be a very good conversation, and I"d love to hear some high level player/competetive insight on whats the best format for tournaments overall, veto system, map pool/size etc. I realize this has been hit on before. But the question I'd pose to the SotG panel is "What is the ideal format to allow the best player to win?" Or "What format would the best player win most often" and as a follow up "Does the best player present/that day, usually win the tournaments, if not is it luck playing it's hand or is the format directly to blame" If there is time "what is a format, or tournament feature that should never see the light of day (i'm thinking extended series or bo1)
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On May 27 2012 23:35 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 23:29 solidONE wrote:
An interesting point people are bringing up is that anyone would go 0-6 in that group minus a few people. Well, that's a completely understandable viewpoint, so thus what I would do is look at the games and see how much of a fight he put up, how the builds played out, how his timing's and such worked out.
What ended up happening was nothing of value on his side being displayed at all. Nothing interesting, refined, effective. All he did was die to one zealot and +1 roaches. That's what he flew across the entire planet for, one zealot to kill him.
Now if this had been anyone else that was a well mannered player that's been in the spotlight but underachieved as of late, like say...DesRow or Scarlett to prove themselves and get on another team, that would be fine with me. They'd go on the merit of being a well mannered underdog, someone that could deserve it. I'm not really a fan of either of them but I mean that's just an example. The point is someone that doesn't shit on the foreigner seen treating them like shit and then getting murdered in public at a foreigner tournament 0-6, with forfeits. I don't care who he played, he should of finished the games too. Basically Redbull just gave him rent money to disrespect the tournament, and I don't understand why he was given a break like this that someone else should have gotten.
I'm glad QuanticIllusion got to go though, that guy played really well and despite falling he showed some boss games. That's the kind of player that should have been invited. Ostojiy played pretty well too and fell in a similar fashion, but he's been working his way up the ranks a little, so I was fine with this. This should of been a cake walk for LS though, I mean it's a foreigner tournament. Wonder what happened there. Classifying it as a "foreigner tournament" doesn't really change the fact that he had to play the 2 Protosses Mvp had to to claim his 4th GSL. And he might have shat on the foreigner scene in general, but he's always had reserve compliments and respect for some exceptions, Ret being one of them. (Come to think of it, most people he gives a lot of respect to were big names from BW)
who cares if they are gsl toss if he lost to a single zealot.
also, there are lots of groups in lots of tournies that lots of people would go 0-6 in. However if that's the expectation? maybe inviting them isn't the best thing for the tournament (from a competition perspective and from a viewers perspective)
I'd be pissed I wasn't in the group with LastShadow 
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On May 28 2012 02:22 zocktol wrote:
Really nice SOTG.
The whole LS thing is completely overblown, let's look at what the individual people said:
Incontrol: Does not like the invite, because he is NOT a newcomer in the scene, but friends with Day9.
Socke: Told a story of how he beat him 2 years ago in a MLG, where LS went for a all-in with SCVs.
Darkforce: Stated that LS played in a MLG around 2010 and has not played after anything then.
Can anybody point out to me, where they were hating and where the fuck was Socke or DF making shit up. Of course they are trying to troll the people from NA, that is what is done on SotG. Just like the europbashing.
Also, if he was just invited to give him exposure, why not invite somebody, who is younger like mouzHeromarine.
About the episode, i really enjoyed the talk about the game, like balance and patches and stuff. Way more entertaining than the whole gossip bit.
I really enjoyed the episode as well, and I think people's reactions to what they said were a bit overblown. I guess what most people who are speaking out against what SotG said are thinking is that they're disregarding him as someone with potential to do well?
While none of them directly said this, you could honestly tell that none of them really thought LS would make it out, and to be realistic, who would? Against potentially the most stacked group for a "newcomer" in the entire tournament? With mechanical? It would have been a gigantic upset (which I would have loved to see) to see LS in contention to make it out of groups.
I don't think any of them were hating on him really, people should remember this quote from him after his apology:
I would love to thank the following players for believing in me even when times were rough:
Slog4[pG]
Artosis[Media]
ToT)InControl(
SirTasteless[9]
Whether that is still is the case is only something I suppose Incontrol could answer.
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Lot's of player fall out of tournaments without winning a game. The only reason we are talking about it is because InControl mentions it. Ask yourself if you were interested in seeing LastShadow play before InControl stirred the pot. Most of you didn't, nor did you even know who he was.
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LS vs Incontrol show match, go go!
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really enjoyable episode. having some europeans on was great, especially guests with so much insight and apparently great chemistry with the americans. would love to see more europeans on the show more frequently. qxc was great as always, i swear this dude is a fuckin genius.
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On May 28 2012 01:52 Letall wrote:
I dont really get the hate agaisnt LS either, put any other US player in that group and he would go 0-6 as well and wasnt LS just a quick replacement for Naniwa anyway?
That is the exact problem. I don't think Incontrol ever intended to insult LS as a person, but in the end LS had like no chance in hell of making it out of that group. That was Incontrol's point; a spot to a small, extremely difficult, tournament was given out to someone who had no chance to win it. Very few US players deserved that spot. They shouldn't have been given it!
Wanting to give a player who isn't often in the spotlight some attention is fine. Doing it while hurting the tournament is bad. I mean, it had no real consequences, Parting and Squirtle would make it out of that group unless a MKP/MVP/DRG was placed in it, and even than its not unlikely they both make it out, but it still seems wrong. It also didn't help that LS was sick. I know he said it wouldn't effect his play before hand, but I call bullshit. No way you can play optimally when your jetlagged and sick, which is why I don't actually judge the quality of his play.
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On May 28 2012 02:42 Atlas247 wrote:
Lot's of player fall out of tournaments without winning a game. The only reason we are talking about it is because InControl mentions it. Ask yourself if you were interested in seeing LastShadow play before InControl stirred the pot. Most of you didn't, nor did you even know who he was.
well yes, the debate begann long before in the Red bull thread. Incontrol just wanted to discuss it, nothing wrong with it.
And before Red Bull i just knew that he lived in Korea, likes Terran mech and was kind of a douche against Painuser in an MLG
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EPT
