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On August 19 2010 07:06 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 06:11 Capnstank wrote:On August 19 2010 04:15 vesicular wrote:
If perfect Terran play will beat perfect Zerg play then there is a problem. You can't count on your opponents to make mistakes in order for you to have a chance to win. Doubly so when money to pay for rent and food is on the line. Perfect play in a perfectly balanced game, by definition, means that every game would result in a draw. As soon as one of the factors is missing (play/execution or balance) then one race will prove victorious over another in a consistent rate. This isn't true. Perfect play in a balanced game would lead to a 50% winrate, (counting draw as .5 wins) but there's no reason to assume that every game would be a draw. Similarly, perfect play vs perfect play in poker will be a draw over time, but every hand will have a winner. In a game of imperfect information, perfect play can lose without the game being unfair.
I don't think you understand the word perfect. If two players played "perfectly" the game would end in a draw each time.
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On August 15 2010 04:30 HardcoreBilly wrote:
Guys, all these people from TL who tell me they're gosus tell me that Zerg is fine, it's just that Zergs don't use burrow, nydus worm, brood lords, roach, mutas, zerglings, hydras, evo chambers, and crawlers enough. And frankly, I'm sure these TL users have more credentials than Sheth, Idra, and Dimaga, simply because the TL users are diamond league.
Learn to play, and QQ more.
Lol. You think some random diamond player is better than IdrA? Dude, I'm a diamond Zerg and I frikken suck.
What the hell are you actually on about?
Also this is sad, I have also been considering switching to T 
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On August 19 2010 04:09 Macabre wrote:
Has anyone mentioned that Corrupters should be able to attack thor? I know Thor own air but at least this would help the mid game roach against thor. Easier to transition into brood lords as well.
I would OK with Thor getting hit by air if he could also cliff walk
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On August 19 2010 07:16 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:30 HardcoreBilly wrote:
Guys, all these people from TL who tell me they're gosus tell me that Zerg is fine, it's just that Zergs don't use burrow, nydus worm, brood lords, roach, mutas, zerglings, hydras, evo chambers, and crawlers enough. And frankly, I'm sure these TL users have more credentials than Sheth, Idra, and Dimaga, simply because the TL users are diamond league.
Learn to play, and QQ more. Lol. You think some random diamond player is better than IdrA? Dude, I'm a diamond Zerg and I frikken suck. What the hell are you actually on about? Also this is sad, I have also been considering switching to T
Did you feel a breeze when it passed over your head?
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On August 19 2010 07:10 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 07:06 huameng wrote:On August 19 2010 06:11 Capnstank wrote:On August 19 2010 04:15 vesicular wrote:
If perfect Terran play will beat perfect Zerg play then there is a problem. You can't count on your opponents to make mistakes in order for you to have a chance to win. Doubly so when money to pay for rent and food is on the line. Perfect play in a perfectly balanced game, by definition, means that every game would result in a draw. As soon as one of the factors is missing (play/execution or balance) then one race will prove victorious over another in a consistent rate. This isn't true. Perfect play in a balanced game would lead to a 50% winrate, (counting draw as .5 wins) but there's no reason to assume that every game would be a draw. Similarly, perfect play vs perfect play in poker will be a draw over time, but every hand will have a winner. In a game of imperfect information, perfect play can lose without the game being unfair. I don't think you understand the word perfect. If two players played "perfectly" the game would end in a draw each time.
Simply not true. That is only true in a game of complete information - and Starcraft 2 is not such a game. Factors such as luck and metagame factor into individual games, but overall it would be 50/50 for both players.
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this weeks top 200 in EU
something smells bad in 1st 15 :D
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874
01 Terran LucifroN
02 Protoss DuckloadRa
03 Terran SharkGSjoW
04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA
04 Terran roxkisBratOK
06 Terran mTwDeMusliM
07 Terran Satiini
08 Terran LiquidTLO
09 Terran ClouD
10 Terran NTT
11 Terran PrO
12 Terran KeySu
13 Protoss ZeeRaX
14 Protoss mouzMaNa
15 Terran PredY
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On August 19 2010 07:58 overdose wrote:this weeks top 200 in EU something smells bad in 1st 15 :D http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874 01 Terran LucifroN 02 Protoss DuckloadRa 03 Terran SharkGSjoW 04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA 04 Terran roxkisBratOK 06 Terran mTwDeMusliM 07 Terran Satiini 08 Terran LiquidTLO 09 Terran ClouD 10 Terran NTT 11 Terran PrO 12 Terran KeySu 13 Protoss ZeeRaX 14 Protoss mouzMaNa 15 Terran PredY
lol. can't say much more.
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On August 19 2010 07:58 overdose wrote:this weeks top 200 in EU something smells bad in 1st 15 :D http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874 01 Terran LucifroN 02 Protoss DuckloadRa 03 Terran SharkGSjoW 04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA 04 Terran roxkisBratOK 06 Terran mTwDeMusliM 07 Terran Satiini 08 Terran LiquidTLO 09 Terran ClouD 10 Terran NTT 11 Terran PrO 12 Terran KeySu 13 Protoss ZeeRaX 14 Protoss mouzMaNa 15 Terran PredY
See look, zerg is perfectly fine guys. lrn2p.
also dimaga is starting to play terran so...
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On August 19 2010 07:58 overdose wrote:this weeks top 200 in EU something smells bad in 1st 15 :D http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874 01 Terran LucifroN 02 Protoss DuckloadRa 03 Terran SharkGSjoW 04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA 04 Terran roxkisBratOK 06 Terran mTwDeMusliM 07 Terran Satiini 08 Terran LiquidTLO 09 Terran ClouD 10 Terran NTT 11 Terran PrO 12 Terran KeySu 13 Protoss ZeeRaX 14 Protoss mouzMaNa 15 Terran PredY
Show this to Jinro who will swear by that TvZ is not broken.
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On August 19 2010 07:58 overdose wrote:this weeks top 200 in EU something smells bad in 1st 15 :D http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874 01 Terran LucifroN 02 Protoss DuckloadRa 03 Terran SharkGSjoW 04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA 04 Terran roxkisBratOK 06 Terran mTwDeMusliM 07 Terran Satiini 08 Terran LiquidTLO 09 Terran ClouD 10 Terran NTT 11 Terran PrO 12 Terran KeySu 13 Protoss ZeeRaX 14 Protoss mouzMaNa 15 Terran PredY
The prosecution rests, your honor.
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On August 19 2010 08:14 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 07:58 overdose wrote:this weeks top 200 in EU something smells bad in 1st 15 :D http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/407874 01 Terran LucifroN 02 Protoss DuckloadRa 03 Terran SharkGSjoW 04 Zerg mTwDIMAGA 04 Terran roxkisBratOK 06 Terran mTwDeMusliM 07 Terran Satiini 08 Terran LiquidTLO 09 Terran ClouD 10 Terran NTT 11 Terran PrO 12 Terran KeySu 13 Protoss ZeeRaX 14 Protoss mouzMaNa 15 Terran PredY Show this to Jinro who will swear by that TvZ is not broken.
Well obviously. I mean there's like 4 zergs on that list who are above jinro. Clearly there is nothing wrong here.
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By that argument though, you should also include the korean numbers shown here:
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/257547
In the top 15:
6 Zerg
6 Terran
2 Protoss
1 Random
The top 15 is not a large enough sample size to give any indication on balance. Koreans might well say that both Zerg and Terran are OP.
P.S. I play exclusively zerg.
P.P.S. Stop whining you bastards
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TOP 100 ladder in the world at http://ps.sc2pf.com/
Zerg: 16 players
Protoss: 32 players
Terran: 50 players
Random: 2 players
RANDOM IS UNDERPOWERED!! BUFF RANDOM NOW!!!
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On August 19 2010 08:38 BadManner wrote:By that argument though, you should also include the korean numbers shown here: http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/257547In the top 15: 6 Zerg 6 Terran 2 Protoss 1 Random The top 15 is not a large enough sample size to give any indication on balance. Koreans might well say that both Zerg and Terran are OP. P.S. I play exclusively zerg. P.P.S. Stop whining you bastards
Why dont you ASK any z player against whish race they have most diffucult time to beat. I have ask 12 every one says T and i would guess that if i ask 100 hundres that would be like95 the trend is clear no doubt about that,
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On August 19 2010 08:41 ilbh wrote:TOP 100 ladder in the world at http://ps.sc2pf.com/Zerg: 16 players Protoss: 32 players Terran: 50 players Random: 2 players RANDOM IS UNDERPOWERED!! BUFF RANDOM NOW!!!
Pretty much says it all, only 16 players in top 100 are zerg WORLDWIDE
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On August 19 2010 08:44 sh02hp0869 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:38 BadManner wrote:By that argument though, you should also include the korean numbers shown here: http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/257547In the top 15: 6 Zerg 6 Terran 2 Protoss 1 Random The top 15 is not a large enough sample size to give any indication on balance. Koreans might well say that both Zerg and Terran are OP. P.S. I play exclusively zerg. P.P.S. Stop whining you bastards Why dont you ASK any z player against whish race they have most diffucult time to beat. I have ask 12 every one says T and i would guess that if i ask 100 hundres that would be like95 the trend is clear no doubt about that,
I have a harder time with Toss.
On August 19 2010 08:49 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:41 ilbh wrote:TOP 100 ladder in the world at http://ps.sc2pf.com/Zerg: 16 players Protoss: 32 players Terran: 50 players Random: 2 players RANDOM IS UNDERPOWERED!! BUFF RANDOM NOW!!! Pretty much says it all, only 16 players in top 100 are zerg WORLDWIDE
That's because everyone stopped playing them or never picked them up because of the trendy whining.
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On August 19 2010 08:50 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:44 sh02hp0869 wrote:On August 19 2010 08:38 BadManner wrote:By that argument though, you should also include the korean numbers shown here: http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/257547In the top 15: 6 Zerg 6 Terran 2 Protoss 1 Random The top 15 is not a large enough sample size to give any indication on balance. Koreans might well say that both Zerg and Terran are OP. P.S. I play exclusively zerg. P.P.S. Stop whining you bastards Why dont you ASK any z player against whish race they have most diffucult time to beat. I have ask 12 every one says T and i would guess that if i ask 100 hundres that would be like95 the trend is clear no doubt about that, I have a harder time with Toss. Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:49 Tazza wrote:On August 19 2010 08:41 ilbh wrote:TOP 100 ladder in the world at http://ps.sc2pf.com/Zerg: 16 players Protoss: 32 players Terran: 50 players Random: 2 players RANDOM IS UNDERPOWERED!! BUFF RANDOM NOW!!! Pretty much says it all, only 16 players in top 100 are zerg WORLDWIDE That's because everyone stopped playing them or never picked them up because of the trendy whining.
And where did that trendy whining start? Oh yeah, I still play zerg
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On August 19 2010 08:57 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 08:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 19 2010 08:44 sh02hp0869 wrote:On August 19 2010 08:38 BadManner wrote:By that argument though, you should also include the korean numbers shown here: http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/257547In the top 15: 6 Zerg 6 Terran 2 Protoss 1 Random The top 15 is not a large enough sample size to give any indication on balance. Koreans might well say that both Zerg and Terran are OP. P.S. I play exclusively zerg. P.P.S. Stop whining you bastards Why dont you ASK any z player against whish race they have most diffucult time to beat. I have ask 12 every one says T and i would guess that if i ask 100 hundres that would be like95 the trend is clear no doubt about that, I have a harder time with Toss. On August 19 2010 08:49 Tazza wrote:On August 19 2010 08:41 ilbh wrote:TOP 100 ladder in the world at http://ps.sc2pf.com/Zerg: 16 players Protoss: 32 players Terran: 50 players Random: 2 players RANDOM IS UNDERPOWERED!! BUFF RANDOM NOW!!! Pretty much says it all, only 16 players in top 100 are zerg WORLDWIDE That's because everyone stopped playing them or never picked them up because of the trendy whining. And where did that trendy whining start? Oh yeah, I still play zerg
Don't listen to him, he is a known low level terran player who likes to troll.
I don't freaking get it that how the hell is DoomDash allowed to openly lie and troll like that, I have busted him before when I posted his bnet ID on another ZvT balance thread....
People like him piss me off so much... DoomDash please go to hell, and stop freaking Bsing
F**king disguiser, have nothing better to do then lie and fake their way into arguments
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 20 2010 10:42 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:39 DooMDash wrote:
Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:19 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now. I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people. I seriously don't get you. you state that you are a zerg player, and Terran is the hardest race for you to play with. Now Common sense dictates that you would obviously win more with main race than with your offrace right? Or are you now a disguised "cough" Terran player? who clearly can't tolerate all the terran hate, so you go out of your way to bombard such threads with multiple posts which don't make any sense. I would accept what you said for truth if you were a random player, but no you are not, as you claim your main race is zerg, and it is sooo easy. Then may I suggest you something? Mind playing at your goddamn own level? And this is not even the worst part to your spam worthy posts. all your posts have one similarity/ you are desperately trying to inject the notion that terran is an overly weak race.
On July 20 2010 11:08 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 11:04 InRaged wrote:On July 20 2010 10:42 Gunman_csz wrote:On July 20 2010 09:39 DooMDash wrote:
Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play. On July 20 2010 10:19 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now. I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people. I don't get. you state that you are a zerg player, and Terran is the hardest race for you to play with. Now Common sense dictates that you would obviously win more with main race than with your offrace right? Or are you now a disguised "cough" Terran player? who clearly can't tolerate all the terran hate, so you go out of your way to bombard such threads with multiple posts which don't make any sense. http://beta-us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1855/1/"I'm a Z player" he said, lol Hahaha  , Nice find. I bet you 100bucks that he won't respond to this thread anymore. Funny because he was on a role till I got to him.
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what is that bullshitdiscussion about what would happen with perfect play? o.O
There is no perfect play in starcraft. There were several broodwar-iviews, where all the pros said, that if god would play BW, he would be unbeatable with Zerg, but since noone has God's Micro, Zerg is well balanced. Basically the balance of Zerg is based on the limitedness of the human reaction and overall control. (micro every single Zergling perfectly and you win for sure)
Even though SC2 might be easier to control then BW... Still... there is nothing even close to perfect play. Especially not a few weeks after release. But actually... there never will be perfect play 
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EPT
