|
On August 09 2010 20:58 Meldrath wrote: The problem with any ELO system is it takes about 50 games per player to actually have them level out to where they are suppose to be. the issue here is people play there placement matches and don't really play more then a few games per week and enjoy the bonus points. So they are inflated beyond belief and players who grind out 100 games a week tend to hit a natural average until they can improve and press onward.. so you have slots filled by players who are not as good as there rating might suggest... played 5 games cheesed 5 games and actually got wins on random players.. now im in platinum. If i know i got lucky to be in platinum im likely gunna play only when I have bonus points to pad any wins I get to make the losses less painful to my standing.
I'm in platinum and only ever lose 3-5 points per loss, vs. 14-20 for each win. That's not counting bonus pool.
|
It sounds like you could improve your scouting. If you lose most of your games to cheese, scout more. Once you learn how to read scouting info you will start to know when something isn't right (missing pylons/tech, proxy rax locations, factory floats etc.), and how exactly to prepare without overcommiting to defense.
|
If your in bronze then you either a 10 year old or a 50 year old with 3 kids and thought a game about space aliens was interesting enough to give it a shot. This league is filled with people with no gaming experience or are only known to play FPS at a low level. Micro/Macro? APM? Forget it, these guys dont know what they mean and are content with massing their favorite unit. They do not have much interest in 1v1s and are strictly UMS map players or play team games exclusively and sometimes tries out 1s when their friends arnt on.
Silver is for people who may or may not have knowledge of the game. Some silver player knows about basic unit counters and might even make an army with good synergy like MMM. However they compete with people who have very little knowledge and are completely unaware that immortals do ridiculous bonus dmg against armored units. Despite the discrepancy in knowledge, the skill set of a knowledgeable player is still so low that they cant counter the ignorant players that realized that mass marines early on and 'a' attack will win games. Micro/Macro is very low at this stage. Building workers is pretty much the main thing holding these guys back.
Gold players are the players that know a BO and can pull it off decently enough. They cant react to anything and they'll crash under any sort of pressure. They cant adapt to in game situations and will generally just mass an army they are comfortable with. These guys know how to expand but anything past 3 base is a legend/myth amongst these players. Their favorite builds include 4 gating, mass roach/hydra or MMM. These players are very much exposed to cheese strategies and will cheese or at least have an idea how to defend it. They understand their own race very well and know what their game plan is. However they have limited knowledge about whats going on with the other races and cannot implement critical thinking to counter potential strategies that may come out. They will scout early game because they know its important but not truly understand what they are looking at when they see what the enemy has in terms of buildings and workers.
Plat players are ppl who either have played a lot of games or go on TL/ watch replays on youtube. They know the basics of the game and are on the road of trying to improve. They know certain timings and know how to get upgrades but they dont truly understand the reasoning behind them. They push out when they are comfortable with their 3-4 collosus build or when they feel they have enough thors. They know how to harass well but end of the day, they lack indepth analysis and are still a little lacking in the macro side.
Diamond players is just a huge range of competent gamers. You could be anything from a weekend warrior to a professional gamer. There is nothing to describe diamond players because the range of skill levels is larger than from bronze to platinum. Any gamer who actually likes to play at a decent level in whatever game they play will get to diamond without question and only lower diamond player will start their sentences with 'I am a diamond player and heres what i think".
|
man reading ppls views on leagues makes me wonder why does everyone think I should be gold league instead of diamond. If you really want help then you should post a replay because if everything u said is true than you should be where I am at. ~low diamond.
|
I am a diamond player and here's what I think. I started in gold after my placements, and I found that the players I was playing universally had terrible macro (mine's bad, but I can manage two bases and a fight well enough) and were frequently vulnerable to early aggression to further disrupt that macro.
I tend to make a small threat early in my build orders (10 rax reaper into marauder pressure vs Protoss, marine and hellion pushes vs Terran and Zerg) and I perceived that my opponents were really shaken by these things (if they could defend them at all.) After that, I found that by just playing solidly -- control the map, scout regularly, concentrate on macroing up a big sensible army -- I was able to make a big advantage almost every game against gold-ish level players. When I made small harassments (drops, viking and banshee guerrilla attacks), they also seemed very effective.
The lesson I learned was that weaker players have a hard time dividing their attention, so force them to do so, either via aggression or by drawing the game out into a multi-base macro-fest.
|
In my experience, if you have even the remotest idea of how to play the game, you are diamond. Everyone else hangs around randomly in Bronze-Platinum.
|
Throughout the beta til now, I've had the pleasure of being able to play in every division... and I will honestly say that the most cheese I've encountered was after I hit Rank 1 Diamond last week... 9 of 12 games that day were cheesing diamond players.
|
I play twos with some friends who aren't very good, so I get a good taste of gold and under players. I do gimmick builds a lot or just mess around and any time the game goes any decent amount of time (say 20 minutes), I double everyone else in score. I just think they're more prone to rushing early, though they are ironically not as capable of handling a well executed rush.
|
bronze doesn't scout, has some sort of a build order but it normally boils down to massing one or two units and doing an all in push. macro fails the longer the game goes on and workers get maxed out at about 20 per base IF they expand. Or they cheese every game
Silver actually knows what they want in the game and can counter a couple units but their build is not very flexible especially since they never scout other than a scan or observer. again macro is ok for the beguining and longer than bronze but starts to pile resources as the game progress. Or they cheese
Gold has a build order and even scouts to change it up when needed. unit composition actually develops to be diverse and threatening. macro lasts a bit longer but again starts to slow as it gets harder. then these players actually...gasp...MICRO...a little. they expand comfortably and plan on a game lasting over 20 min. OR the cheese
Platinum: is well polished and scouts religiously. the build order is ready for different races and can macro for a late game. workers are well saturated and strategy can actually be developed independently from outside sources. they understand a when to push and when and how the opponent can push. micro is important and can be done while producing more units to reinforce. OR they have quality cheese
Diamond: Got it taken care of. Or they have imported italian french new york style cheese
|
Bronze first step in the game is so to feel "secure" so they almost ALWAYS start off with static defense , they dont understand how to be efficient with resources/units. They don't understand how to beat the opponent rather just to not get beaten.
Silver they understand that they need units to beat the opponent and make alot. timings are off, slow, and when in battle macro is non-existent
Gold Similar to silver but with macro
Platinum Thoroughly understands builds + weaknessess / strengths, better macro than Gold.
High level Plat / Diamond (same cause alot of pros stuck in plat) Exact same as Platinum but with a more refined game play. Makes better use of resources and units. Better micro, better understanding of opponent, scouting alot more. Minimal harass
High Level Diamond Same as ^, but with harass. Able to make use of every unit at all times, no idle attackers. Drops, better mutli tasking. Generally ~ 100apm avrg. at least.
-----------
Thats how i see things ^_^
|
On August 09 2010 22:32 Koszul wrote:From my POV, from Silver to Platinium (hoping to get higher soon), the main difference between the players is just plain execution. Starting from higher Gold people know what to build, how to scout or how to counter most obvious things but when they exp, you push them with some skirmish fights here and there they loose control and as Inori wrote "... then come back to their base with 2k+ mins stockpiled". As a casual BW player, who learned a bit about the SC2 in beta and now learns I think the most important, very basic, things are: - get your command groups sorted. I you think it is hard to remember and execute all after 4th then this is something to work on. - learn the hotkeys. Nothing waste time more than clicking all the icons - command group your buildings and produce army while attacking - use your PC equipment. I wonder how many players having 5+ btn mouse use only 2 of them Assign even bloody backspace somewhere. It will help
I disagree on the mouse thing. I have a five button mouse but only use the two (three) on top because the way I hold my mouse if I used the side buttons I'd lose control of it. Keyboard hotkeys are great though.
|
I think it is pointless to try to give these broad descriptions of "how good x league players are". If you want help with your game, post replays. Trying to declare that you think you should be in a higher league does no good. There is so much game sense required in sc2, that you can't just "know build orders and know how to macro". Although many here think diamond players are those who just "know a basic build and can macro". I've played silver/gold players who have crisp build orders and spend their resources well. They just make other poor decisions that allows them to lose to even other silver/gold players who don't macro as well, but who makes much wiser decisions.
You say that you keep losing to "reasons unknown" and yet all you have to do is post some replays of you losing and I am sure the community here will quickly help you find those reasons. If you want to know how these silver/gold players beat you, you must post some replays and let others help. It seems like you know what the basics are, and if we could see the games that you lose, we can probably help you execute your plan better. Are you having problems with certain cheeses? Post the replay and I'm sure the community can help you beat these. You seem to dismiss cheese as just "games that I'm going to lose, and there is nothing I can do about it". That just isn't true. I just don't think this vague "I think I should be better than I really am" post can help you in any way.
|
On August 10 2010 04:50 Fumble wrote: If your in bronze then you either a 10 year old or a 50 year old with 3 kids and thought a game about space aliens was interesting enough to give it a shot. This league is filled with people with no gaming experience or are only known to play FPS at a low level. Micro/Macro? APM? Forget it, these guys dont know what they mean and are content with massing their favorite unit. They do not have much interest in 1v1s and are strictly UMS map players or play team games exclusively and sometimes tries out 1s when their friends arnt on.
Silver is for people who may or may not have knowledge of the game. Some silver player knows about basic unit counters and might even make an army with good synergy like MMM. However they compete with people who have very little knowledge and are completely unaware that immortals do ridiculous bonus dmg against armored units. Despite the discrepancy in knowledge, the skill set of a knowledgeable player is still so low that they cant counter the ignorant players that realized that mass marines early on and 'a' attack will win games. Micro/Macro is very low at this stage. Building workers is pretty much the main thing holding these guys back.
Gold players are the players that know a BO and can pull it off decently enough. They cant react to anything and they'll crash under any sort of pressure. They cant adapt to in game situations and will generally just mass an army they are comfortable with. These guys know how to expand but anything past 3 base is a legend/myth amongst these players. Their favorite builds include 4 gating, mass roach/hydra or MMM. These players are very much exposed to cheese strategies and will cheese or at least have an idea how to defend it. They understand their own race very well and know what their game plan is. However they have limited knowledge about whats going on with the other races and cannot implement critical thinking to counter potential strategies that may come out. They will scout early game because they know its important but not truly understand what they are looking at when they see what the enemy has in terms of buildings and workers.
Plat players are ppl who either have played a lot of games or go on TL/ watch replays on youtube. They know the basics of the game and are on the road of trying to improve. They know certain timings and know how to get upgrades but they dont truly understand the reasoning behind them. They push out when they are comfortable with their 3-4 collosus build or when they feel they have enough thors. They know how to harass well but end of the day, they lack indepth analysis and are still a little lacking in the macro side.
Diamond players is just a huge range of competent gamers. You could be anything from a weekend warrior to a professional gamer. There is nothing to describe diamond players because the range of skill levels is larger than from bronze to platinum. Any gamer who actually likes to play at a decent level in whatever game they play will get to diamond without question and only lower diamond player will start their sentences with 'I am a diamond player and heres what i think". This whole qoute, made me laugh :D Though sounded a bit negative while describing the bronze players : (
|
Bronze: But a few steps removed from being a monkey with a keyboard.
Silver: Maybe played an RTS before. Has just a rudimentary knowledge of units and the game.
Gold: Starts getting tricky. Gold seems to be the default to land in if you do well in placements and that's not hard at all. There's complete newbs in gold who had lucky placements and there's people who actually do know builds and stuff... but are flawed in other ways (poor macro or micro, poor game sense, lack of build depth)
Plat: Not as much of a crapshoot as gold, but there's still people who clearly don't know what's going on here... also a lot of good, but slightly flawed players. There might still be some people jockeying one strat, but most dudes have better than average mechanics and game sense. Probably 85% of the people in this level are ex-SC/BWers.
Diamond: I've played a bunch of diamonds already. A lot are legit really good and but some are people that maybe should be in plat but hit a nice win streak along the way or something and got a promo...
Someone touched on this, but the most important thing to remember is that it's still early. A lot of people haven't broken 50 games on 1v1. It's a small sample. It will be a month before people really start settling into leagues and even then, the casual dudes who barely play are going to skew and you'll have some low game count, high rank guys.
|
Everything is skewed badly on the ladders. During beta I was Copper then Bronze and a little Silver before phase 2.
I'd probably put myself in the top of Silver at this point, maybe low Gold but instead because I destroyed cheese builds during my placement matches I'm in Platinum.
Right now I'm 2-1 in Platinum as well. Again the wins are due to cheese builds which I scouted. The loss was my own fault because I didn't scout enough. If I had used a single scan I would have noticed the two hidden gates which allowed him to beat me with a 4-gate all-in.
Over the next few weeks as people gain skill I figure things will start to even out...maybe.
|
On August 09 2010 20:02 CruS wrote: They are not that good, they lack good macro.
If that was actually your question? Submit some replays and people will be sure to give you a few tips. Most likely involving "make more workers, use your minerals, expand faster and more often".
This.
I lack good macro. I am a gold player. Coincidence? =O
|
You should get a practice partner. i was the same way i understood the game so much, but that doesn't mean you can execute what you see on replays. you need to get a buddy that you can practice the strategies with and mass games.
|
I'm in Plat with ~15 games, while a co-worker of mine is #1 in his Diamond division with ~100 games. I'm sure my score will even out with more games, but he should definitely not be in Diamond. He's really terrible, and I can beat him with pretty much anything under the sun.
Just a tidbit of his Diamond "skills": He plays toss and doesn't upgrade warpgate tech because he "doesn't like it". He doesn't use hotkeys. (APM = 15-30) His Idea of voidray micro on an undefended Zerg base is to attack spine crawlers instead of a morphing hydralisk den. Doesn't block his ramp because despite being told about hold position, he thinks zerglings get in anyway. Typical BO is 10 Pylon, 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, then Zealots/Cannons for "protection"
I'm not sure of his actual point ranking, but really, he's just bad and you shouldn't ever judge a player by their league. "Don't judge a book by its cover".
|
On August 10 2010 06:13 Phunkapotamus wrote: I'm in Plat with ~15 games, while a co-worker of mine is #1 in his Diamond division with ~100 games. I'm sure my score will even out with more games, but he should definitely not be in Diamond. He's really terrible, and I can beat him with pretty much anything under the sun.
Just a tidbit of his Diamond "skills": He plays toss and doesn't upgrade warpgate tech because he "doesn't like it". He doesn't use hotkeys. (APM = 15-30) His Idea of voidray micro on an undefended Zerg base is to attack spine crawlers instead of a morphing hydralisk den. Doesn't block his ramp because despite being told about hold position, he thinks zerglings get in anyway. Typical BO is 10 Pylon, 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, then Zealots/Cannons for "protection"
I'm not sure of his actual point ranking, but really, he's just bad and you shouldn't ever judge a player by their league. "Don't judge a book by its cover".
I just can't believe this. Sorry. I've played many other Diamonds and they have all been very competent with very typical builds. Regardless of how meaningless divisions are, I can't believe that he is #1 in his diamond division or that he is that bad of a player. Maybe he is some freak occurrence or he purposely plays bad against you. I just can't imagine a player like that beating any of the last probably 15 opponents I've played against. Would love to see some replays of him beating all these other Diamond players.
|
On August 10 2010 05:14 Kobra Atlantis wrote: bronze doesn't scout, has some sort of a build order but it normally boils down to massing one or two units and doing an all in push. macro fails the longer the game goes on and workers get maxed out at about 20 per base IF they expand. Or they cheese every game
Silver actually knows what they want in the game and can counter a couple units but their build is not very flexible especially since they never scout other than a scan or observer. again macro is ok for the beguining and longer than bronze but starts to pile resources as the game progress. Or they cheese
Gold has a build order and even scouts to change it up when needed. unit composition actually develops to be diverse and threatening. macro lasts a bit longer but again starts to slow as it gets harder. then these players actually...gasp...MICRO...a little. they expand comfortably and plan on a game lasting over 20 min. OR the cheese
Platinum: is well polished and scouts religiously. the build order is ready for different races and can macro for a late game. workers are well saturated and strategy can actually be developed independently from outside sources. they understand a when to push and when and how the opponent can push. micro is important and can be done while producing more units to reinforce. OR they have quality cheese
Diamond: Got it taken care of. Or they have imported italian french new york style cheese
I'm gold level, and I agree with this. Everyone saying that people who aren't in diamond suck have either small e-peens or huge egos.
|
|
|
|