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On July 19 2010 00:49 Puosu wrote:
Timing is a skill, it's something that a lot of good players can feel in their mind. They know the timings when a certain attack is going to be knocking the door on their natural and when it might be a good time to do a specific thing (expand, start a new unit production round). Taking away this skill would be another step to making the game less competitive, something we certainly don't want to happen.
At least MBS and automining had the good sides of making the game more appealing to the casual audience which will help the competitive scene as the amount of spectators will be higher. However a timer would hardly be something a casual player is going to care about, sure they will see the amount they've been in the game, but a casual player is probably not going to be too keen about having to remember when a specific timing is going to happen.
This.
It would also serve as a distraction I would think^^
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thing is, if you have a list of units inside your vision, a timer, a mining rate, and harvesters, and units in production, a good commander in the world of starcraft would have this information at their fingertips.... as of now, it is unrealistic...
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On July 19 2010 00:49 Puosu wrote:
Timing is a skill, it's something that a lot of good players can feel in their mind. They know the timings when a certain attack is going to be knocking the door on their natural and when it might be a good time to do a specific thing (expand, start a new unit production round). Taking away this skill would be another step to making the game less competitive, something we certainly don't want to happen.
At least MBS and automining had the good sides of making the game more appealing to the casual audience which will help the competitive scene as the amount of spectators will be higher. However a timer would hardly be something a casual player is going to care about, sure they will see the amount they've been in the game, but a casual player is probably not going to be too keen about having to remember when a specific timing is going to happen.
completely agree with Puosu's post
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On July 19 2010 04:52 Dental Floss wrote:
They should let you have a game timer, actual clock time, and APM counters while you ladder. If having a clock makes the skill ceiling too low then the problem is with SCII's skill cap, not the clock. People want to keep it the old way because it favors mass gaming and discourages people getting good quickly.
If you seriously think obsessing about the 3:00 push is going to make you good at SC2, you are in for a big shock.
But I do think an in-game timer would change the tone of the conversation about timing, as it would become much coarser, as someone said -- it'd be about what you should have at 2:13 and what you should have at 2:56. It's stupid and boring, and I honestly don't think it would help too much.
On July 19 2010 05:50 Thoreezhea wrote:
thing is, if you have a list of units inside your vision, a timer, a mining rate, and harvesters, and units in production, a good commander in the world of starcraft would have this information at their fingertips.... as of now, it is unrealistic...
LMAO. You seem to be under the impression that you're playing a simulator..
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On July 19 2010 00:43 Ndugu wrote:
I would like it to be in-game. Until it is, I would feel like I was cheating to use one.
How would it be cheating if both players have it?
Timer would be a great additional option.
Although most players have learnt to use supply to know timings.
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On July 19 2010 06:46 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 00:43 Ndugu wrote:
I would like it to be in-game. Until it is, I would feel like I was cheating to use one. How would it be cheating if both players have it? Timer would be a great additional option. Although most players have learnt to use supply to know timings.
Well, it violates the spirit of the game up to now.
But that's not a terribly strong point. It's just that your timer is boring and cheapens the game.
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On July 19 2010 00:37 -Archangel- wrote:
I just love it that replays have timers and would love to have one during my games without needing to use a clock on my desk or something.
Knowing how much has passed from the start of the game would be really great. A good player knows what the opponent can throw at him and at what time.
4 gate pushes, baneling busts, fast banshee or void rays all have a certain time of apperance.
Anyone else that would really like this feature?
Tell blizzard then please!
A good player also doesn't need a clock to know the when of what the opponent could possibly throw at them.
That said, feature seems basic and I'm all for it. 
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I would like it as optional, but it WOULD make the game feel real calculated, clunky, and automated. As a build tester it would be great, perhaps make it a toggleble option by the host on making a game, eg.
[x] Allow In-game Timer
So for any custom games you want to practice with, you can put the timer on, but for tourneys and ladder games, its automatically disabled.
The timer issue creates a really wierd type of cheating, where it's not even certain if it even helps at all.
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a timer in-game would be a TERRIBLE idea, would completely ruin any strategic thinking and instead promote a checklist of 'at 4;50 I should have X amount workers and start pumping for timing push'
for which you could just put an A.I. in there instead...
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Simply put... No thanks... :-)
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On July 19 2010 05:50 Thoreezhea wrote:
thing is, if you have a list of units inside your vision, a timer, a mining rate, and harvesters, and units in production, a good commander in the world of starcraft would have this information at their fingertips.... as of now, it is unrealistic...
space monsters shooting lasers and spines is real realistic 
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I can't stand addons like this in any game, take HoN for example.. There are addons for it that completely replace skill, telling you when to last hit creeps/heroes, and when someone is missing ect. Its the exact same thing as a clock would be for SC2, just play the game and get better, don't try to find a gimmick to increase your skill quickly because you'll stagnate.
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introducing a timer wouldn't make the game necessarily easier, it would make it different (as some stated, more like chess).
Don't say the game will become easier if in reality it will just go into a direction you don't like.
Too many people on TL seem to think that every change from brood war makes the game simpler (and thus less play-worthy) when it is quite often just that the game gets to be different (and thus maybe not to your likening).
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Terrible idea.
Starcraft is a game that at it's very core, is based on time.
Taking away things that you have to keep track of would make the game easier. Sure, it would make it easier for everyone, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't change the game. You don't see the PGA Tour played on courses consisting entirely of par 3's.
And to the players that think it would be better with a timer, the first time you lose a couple workers, or an expansion, or anything like that - your timing is going to be completely changed. This isn't Sim City. Starcraft is fluid.
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in response to Zeromadcowz and kajeus:
you are supposed to command an army and win. flat out.so you are telling me that a commander needs to take 10 seconds to headcount production, and workers, when in th "real" world of starcraft we could just ask a leuitenent who has recorded your battlefield commands and get it in less than one? and couldn't we say. OH SHIT, there are 3 squadrons of units in that sensor towers range, keep me posted if any make aggressive movments?
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This isn't a simulation like it was said, its a GAME. It doesn't have to be true to real life.
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On July 19 2010 04:22 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 02:39 b0t wrote:
>> If you add a clock to help you then what's next? A list of enemy units inside your vision?
A warning message telling you that your Nexus has max energy? A command button to make a unit retreat to your HQ? A list of barracks not producing anything?
IMHO these are all very good suggestions. As long as both players have the same information the game is fair. And the more information, the more convinient the interface the better. What will matter than is not so much the expirience, but strategy and inteligence.
If you start picking out all the minor skills like timing and mechanical things you will find yourself playing a game of rock paper scissors where the people are just trying to figure out which build order they should perfectly execute this time. In Brood War (and the current state of SC2) while some builds have advantages over each other you could still easily win if you were to make your opponent execute a mistake or had better execution. How do you force your enemy to make a mistake if he has the easiest interface that automates everything for you? How do you play better than him other than pick your strategy? Where do you capitalize? It doesn't matter if its "fair" when the game has absolutely no potential to show off any skill. If Blizzard would implement those things it would practically shout "fuck you!" out loud to the competitive scene and mold the game in to another easy to play, easy to master RTS the market is already full of. Brood War would remain the only true RTS eSports, casuals would enjoy the game for a while until moving on and Blizzard would have made a small fraction of what they could be making had a true eSports scene emerged. An in-game timer is just a small step as were MBS and automining. It's a slippery slope and if we continue to go on we're going to find a game not suitable for competitive gaming.
Chess is a game, 1000 times simpler than Starcraft 2. There are tens of thousands of books about it. Still it's not rock paper scissors. And a player, who played 100 hours of chess in his life has no chances agains a pro. With all these impovements a competative player would own a diamond noob every time.
Plus I don't like professional sports. Do you plan to live of SC2? That's an extremely stupid decision. If you invest the same amount of time in a carier or a startup, you'll get a lot more back.
Do you say that the biggest source of enjoyment in a RTS must be mastering an interface, wich is made hard to master on purpose?
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Do you say that the biggest source of enjoyment in a RTS must be mastering an interface, wich is made hard to master on purpose?
I get a kick from people getting their panties in a knot over the improved interface and AI.
If we were to pretend that BW was a sport, learning to run was one of the more challenging aspects of it. So now we remove the silly hurdles that slowed people down, and allow everyone to concentrate on the game itself instead.
I actually agree that the game needs some things added to raise the skillcap. I imagine those will come in time, either through player ingenuity or on the techincal side by Blizzard. But they can't be upfront. It shouldn't be contending with a clunky, creaking, backwards interace.
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i'm of the "who cares" opinion. i don't think that a clock seriously helps anyone. sure, you can be wary of a "6:30 timing attack" and know that you need prepare at 5:45 or whatever, but anyone who already knows that can do that by supply count anyways. i can't think of a situation where a clock is significantly more helpful than scouting and supply count that isn't very, very contrived.
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i don't think its needed at all.. I mean, who would it help?
Newer players would not know that, say, 5.30 would be a good time to attack, and an experienced would know when to attack anyways i.e. when stim is done or you have just finished warp gates?
I think that with the clock, you basically want every game to turn out the same way, at least until the first attack??
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EPT
