|
Before I get started, let me put aside any magical moments you might expect to have while reading this.
I am Not expecting:
- this change to immediately 'balance' ultras
- to see mass ultras as a staple of zerg gameplay because of this change
I Am expecting:
- this to make the zerg feel more polished
- this to make the zerg more fun but not overpowered from a cool spell
So, without further adieu, and at the risk of people flaming me about making sc2 into broodwar all over again, let's put "consume" back in the game.
Let's not give a spellcaster this ability, however. I couldn't theorize enough on the ramifications of giving a unit like the infestor 'consume.' I have no idea where that would end up.
Let's give 'consume' to ultralisks. Let the ability give the ultralisk hitpoints instead of mana. All zerg units would benefit the ultralisk the same, whether he 'consumed' an overlord or a mere zergling, he would still gain, let's say, 50 hitpoints back into his health pool.
Please vote in the poll, and give any specific criticisms you may have in the thread. 
Poll: Give Ultralisks the ability to consume for hitpoints?It would just be a useless skill. (74) 56% I don't like the idea, even if the numbers were tweaked. (43) 32% Hm, sounds interesting and fun actually. (16) 12% 133 total votes Your vote: Give Ultralisks the ability to consume for hitpoints? (Vote): I don't like the idea, even if the numbers were tweaked.
(Vote): It would just be a useless skill.
(Vote): Hm, sounds interesting and fun actually.
|
It sounds fun, but the main problem with the Ultralisk is that it shares the same role with another unit at tier three that is just plain better.
|
On April 28 2010 08:23 KhaosKreator wrote:
It sounds fun, but the main problem with the Ultralisk is that it shares the same role with another unit at tier three that is just plain better.
sort of, but I encourage people to play with ultras more before all jumping to this same conclusion. I've been playing with ultras a lot lately (because they're hilarious and fun) and I feel they're much different than broodlords, and even much much better in some circumstances. Before anyone asks me, I'm a top-10 plat player. But, no, I didn't use them in 1v1s, I used them in 2v2s, and that may be the situation I'm finding them most useful in. I duno.. we'll see..
|
10387 Posts
no because then Protoss can just feedback the Ultras
|
I would give Ultras some sort of charge ability. Something that could deal damage and push enemy units. It would make the ultras more useful in small numbers, since just a couple could break a choke or something like that, and also would be sweet. Like a charging rhino but bigger and more badass.
You can fly your queen into battle and use her transfusion if you are desperate to make ultras more useful, though.
|
You could have one ultra just tanking or all of your broodlords, and consuming every broodling after it lands. That would be fun.
Seriously though, I don't think the ultra needs a gimmicky micro opportunity like this, I think it needs a pretty serious role change, as stated earlier in the thread. Something like halfing it's damage output and doubling it's hp. Then using at as a sort of late game roach, to tank for hydras that provide the dps.
|
|
|
It doesnt seem to fit him. Like i wouldnt like fellow units just exploding around an ultra. BUT if you made it so the ultra ate other units and there was an animation of it swallowing a unit AND THEN health was gained, that would be sweet.
|
On April 28 2010 08:29 blagoonga123 wrote:
onos!
NS was an awesome game
if ultras could walk over lings, they wouldnt run around like morons in the back of your ling army as they get focused down my immortals/marauders. i think this is a better fix then having to micro ultras in battle with consume.
|
The only ability I want Ultras to have is letting smaller (1 supply) units be able to walk underneath them. Similar to collossi, but not able to crawl over ledges.
|
I think they just need to reduce the size of the ultra a little bit so that more of them can reach the front thus making them more viable.
|
give them the ability to break force fields and that would be balanced. Ultras are quite good, the problem is that with force fields is imposible to reach the enemy, also vs terran the BL are much better vs marauders army thats normally what they make.
|
I just don't understand why you would do this.
So you could ultralisk rush and use single ultralisks against the enemy by using consume on some 10 zerglings.
In battles, it doesn't make sense to make an ultralisk eat a 35 hp zergling, get 50 hp and gain a networth of 15 hp. Just, why would you do it? It would as useful (and same amount of micro) to bring damaged zerglings from a fight to the base (so they could regen 20 hp or so for the next fight).
What does this fix? Does it make sense?
It fixes nothing because Ultras were never something that needed a boost.
It doesn't make sense because in a battle, the extremely micro intensive move (ultralisk, click on zergling, which is probably moving due to the fact that it's a ZERGLING, [anything else to consume = less efficient, hurting you more than helping]) doesn't really have any benefit.
Consume for the Defiler made perfect sense, it stayed behind the lines so specifically keeping 2 zerglings for it made sense (while you can't really have 2 zerglings sitting next to an ultralisk, in the enemy lines, and not expect them to be pwned by splash and what not). The Defilers needed the zerglings to operate, it pretty much doubled the amount of spell each one used (before it died eventually). Ultralisks? Getting 50 hp is neglible. Getting 200 hp is worth thinking about, but all of this thinking is useless unless we even answer:
Why?
|
On April 28 2010 08:36 Battle wrote:
give them the ability to break force fields and that would be balanced. Ultras are quite good, the problem is that with force fields is imposible to reach the enemy, also vs terran the BL are much better vs marauders army thats normally what they make.
roach + ultra army would be sooo imba
|
On April 28 2010 08:28 ArvickHero wrote:
no because then Protoss can just feedback the Ultras
This would be it. Not only do midgame Terran/Protoss armies wreck Ultralisks with kiting, now feedback can own them too!
On topic, it does seem like a pretty useless ability. The immortal would only need an extra shot to kill it anyway. Ultralisks need a size reduction and a speed boost in my opinion. They are too slow and clog up zerg armies.
|
An ultralisk does not survive a fight. So consume would be completely useless.
|
Would consume be autocast? You leave your army alone for a bit to start an expo, look back and there is nothing but ultras...
|
Cooler idea: implement a Zerg spell that's like plague, but heals Zerg units instead of damaging them.
+ Show Spoiler +Not imbalanced in the least
|
Ultralisk doesnt need any skills, they just need a buff that would make them actually viable. Melee units are just so much weaker in SC2 they need a good buff to actually fill in a roll.
|
Sounds good if it doesn't result in ultras having energy. Id rather see ultralisks get some sort of increase in damage reduction from anti-armor sources or an increase in movement speed. Maybe the walking over zerglings thing that was talked about in alpha. Id rather see transfusion actually get used on second thought. Ultras definitely need something, but I don't think this is it.
|
On April 28 2010 08:42 Kakisho wrote:
I just don't understand why you would do this.
So you could ultralisk rush and use single ultralisks against the enemy by using consume on some 10 zerglings.
In battles, it doesn't make sense to make an ultralisk eat a 35 hp zergling, get 50 hp and gain a networth of 15 hp. Just, why would you do it? It would as useful (and same amount of micro) to bring damaged zerglings from a fight to the base (so they could regen 20 hp or so for the next fight).
What does this fix? Does it make sense?
It fixes nothing because Ultras were never something that needed a boost.
It doesn't make sense because in a battle, the extremely micro intensive move (ultralisk, click on zergling, which is probably moving due to the fact that it's a ZERGLING, [anything else to consume = less efficient, hurting you more than helping]) doesn't really have any benefit.
Consume for the Defiler made perfect sense, it stayed behind the lines so specifically keeping 2 zerglings for it made sense (while you can't really have 2 zerglings sitting next to an ultralisk, in the enemy lines, and not expect them to be pwned by splash and what not). The Defilers needed the zerglings to operate, it pretty much doubled the amount of spell each one used (before it died eventually). Ultralisks? Getting 50 hp is neglible. Getting 200 hp is worth thinking about, but all of this thinking is useless unless we even answer:
Why?
omfg, just what i wanted to say
|
On April 28 2010 09:04 mucker wrote:
Would consume be autocast? You leave your army alone for a bit to start an expo, look back and there is nothing but ultras...
i don't know why but i busted out laughing so hard at this comment.
and to the poll: geez u guys are harsh 
use your imaginations wieners :/
|
ULTRAS are even now imba strong
ultra muta kicks nearly 99% in platin in zvp
because 4 ultras > 50 sentry/stalkers
|
Stupidest idea ever. The only suggestions for Ultras that sound remotely reasonable are either making one/both the upgrades innate and/or allowing them to walk over units like a colossus.
I don't see why the suggestion in the OP makes the slightest amount of sense. If an ultralisk can eat a zergling for health, why not any other bio? Cause it's full?
Bleh.
|
Are they actually that bad? Well, I didn't see any so far (Terran) but the only reason I could think of that is because banelings counter bio by themselve and are easier available :o
And ofc that games usually don't spread as much as in BW so players have less ressources and Ultralisks would need a certain number before they kick ass.
I'ld go with remove Roaches and add this HP-Regeneration-Thingy to ultralisks (without tech, poor giant bugs already got two expansive techs). Change up zerg techtree alot, bring back lurkers and make Ultralisks the important tanking units for late game stages.
|
This would make late game gets this idea, Mass ultralisk with mass overlords for hp haha.
|
maybe make the ultra's carapace upgrade also halve the +armoured bonus dmg on units, making them alot more durable against their counters while not(probably) making them unstoppable
|
I think best buff would be to just not make them armored so that no unit does extra damage to them. I guarantee if that happened, they would roll around wrecking alot of stuff. If you want an example just use them against an army of everything EXCEPT their hard counter units and just look at how insane they are. My ultra ling muta 120 supply demolished a 200 supply protoss gateway army + some phoenixes.
|
Ultralisk allready have enough health. Problem is the time it takes to get them, and the other "better" options you have.
|
make their armor upgrade to remove their "armored" status so they arent hard countered so easily
|
On April 28 2010 08:28 ArvickHero wrote:
no because then Protoss can just feedback the Ultras
I don't think you read the OP, it would give them health, not energy. Feedback wouldn't do anything.
|
I'd rather give the ultralisk an above ground health regeneration ability similar to the roaches. Make the zerg's tank unit actually tank worthy. Sometimes it feels as if the roaches hp regeneration isn't really worthwhile because only units with extremely high HP reap the long term benefits of such an ability. The cost/regeneration rate would balance itself out.
|
I personally hate all armored units because of the "terrible, terrible damage" mechanic of T and P to armored units. Armored units aren't even armored anymore, they take MORE damage. This includes the ultralisk, whos utility banked largely on the fact that it was ARMORED and was supposed to be HARD to kill.
This addition you suggested might fix it but no way it would fly with blizz. In their eyes, they'd think that the ultra is too strong to give more HP, even though in reality all you need is a few immortals or a handful of mauraders to snipe an ultra instantly, which is the precise reason no high level players use it. Waste of resources. Rather have broodlords.
EDIT: better fix:
On April 28 2010 10:26 poor newb wrote:
make their armor upgrade to remove their "armored" status so they arent hard countered so easily
|
I actually think that giving ultralisks a transport ability would help a lot. Zerglings riding ontop of ultralisks into battle would help with all the pathing problems too. I personally don't see anything wrong or imba with my idea but maybe someone else will.
To the OP: I'm kindof undecided about your idea. It just doesn't inspire anything in me.
|
I'd like to see ultras obtain an ability thet lets them "demolish/trample" force fields.
Edit: I'd like this to be a feature of archons as well.
|
Things I would change about Ultralisks...
*They need to be about 33% smaller and stop clogging up every unit trying to get around it until it dies.
*They need to look more like Ultralisks in SC1, they do not look good at all in SC2, and are way too large.
![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/mtp7oz.gif)
vs
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/33bcpwk.jpg)
I just really really really hate the way the new Ultralisk looks :[ Zerg really got the shaft in the art department this time around (Corrupters, Infestors, Zerglings all look bad.)
|
I like the idea of health regeneration. It upgrades the SC1 notion of "just" a tank to something more nuanced, which follows the general goal of "every unit is something unique and cool". Obviously you could have any number of mechanics to try and find something that is fun and useful. The OP's version is not a bad starting point. What if ultras had an upgrade that gave them a scavenge sort of consume: whenever an ultra kills a biological unit, it gains some health. This makes them more effective against groups of little guys, guiding your opponent into an army of less and bigger guys... where zerglings are often good again, etc. It would help shift the unit composition interaction in a meaningful way. And you could still attack (eat) your own guys if you want, so the original idea is built in.
If anyone has played Halo Wars, think of how the Arbiter works, as a unit composition analogy.
|
On April 28 2010 09:24 Vexx wrote:
Stupidest idea ever. The only suggestions for Ultras that sound remotely reasonable are either making one/both the upgrades innate and/or allowing them to walk over units like a colossus.
I don't see why the suggestion in the OP makes the slightest amount of sense. If an ultralisk can eat a zergling for health, why not any other bio? Cause it's full?
Bleh.
this makes no sense. did you even read the OP? did you even play broodwar?
|
|
|
I don't like the idea because it doesn't seem very natural for an ultralisk to use consume. Other than that it would be interesting. But I think a better idea would be to have the ultralisk actually shit out baby ultralisks after using consume.
|
the ultra doesn't necessarily need mana to use a skill (e.g. stalker's blink). the regen can obviously be over time so it's not some imba shit where it doesn't die in battle.
some other options are a cannibalize attack where it does reduced damage but gains HP with each attack (using his mouth), or some defensive mode where it also does reduced damage (shielding itself with two of its four massive claws) but also tanks like a beast.
a different idea is for the ultralisks to be able to push units aside (creating holes in armies by moving through blobs) so that zerglings can surround more easily.
|
I'm not really sure what would make the ultralisk useful. Why are they not used right now? Is it simply because of marauders or immortals? Is roach/hydra simply a better army comp? Are opponents not using the mass small units that ultras would counter so well?
Anyway I have a few thoughts on fixing them.
Firstly, perhaps allow them to use their headbutt attack against massive targets? So vs colossi, thors, other ultras, they could do some serious damage without flailing around their claws doing a pitiful 18 damage.
Second, I'd say increase their damage rather significantly, and reduce their AoE radius.
I'm not really sure what else might make them useful. It could also be that just the maps of today don't really have enough wide open spaces to make ultras or melee units in general a good option. No one seems to be using lings en masse late game either o.o;
|
Have it so with every attack Ultralisks spawn a broodling. I dunno, I feel like Blizzard is saving something for Ultras for later expansions~
|
The major problems I have seen with Ultralisks is their inability to do damage. This is due to low "time on target". They are to slow even with the speed upgrade by the time they catch up they're almost dead. High DPS from ranged units like Marauders Stalkers Immortals and Roach/Hydra takes them down before they get into position. Things stop them from actually getting to the front quickly. Forcefield, 250mm cannon stun, Neural parasite, Fungal Growth, your own units getting in the way.
One pretty sick example of how outmatched they can be is watching an Ultralisk try to attack stimmed Marauders. A couple Marauders being microed with stim will kill the fully upgraded Ultralisk without being touched once. It's a helpless feeling for the Zerg so people just don't make them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
