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On June 09 2011 12:42 Tektos wrote:
He still appeals to people because he has an interesting personality still, so those with near zero knowledge of the game still enjoy his casts regardless of the factual errors in many things he says.
I know it's only a part of your overall argument here, but I think this isn't exactly fair, given the unspoken implication of it is basically 'and if they did have game knowledge, they wouldn't be watching him'.
Admittedly you'd probably lump me in with that category of player, given I'm low bronze and could count the number of ladder games I've played on my fingers, but I'd definitely argue that TB offers more than entertainment value alone.
To elaborate, I'm a regular watcher of the Day9 Daily (aren't we all!), and dip in and out of various pro-streams, but it feels really hard to get to grips with the lessons in the former and apply them to the latter in particular in terms of mistakes to avoid; when a game can be won or lost in a single moment, rather than through noticable bumps in play, it feels to me a lot harder to engage with that kind of play as anything other than entertainment. That's not a bad thing, and of course it'd nice to aspire to get even remotely close to that level, but to me it feels like if that's all I ever watched, even if I played regularly, I wouldn't know how to see various holes in my own play, aside from the 'well, he doesn't forget to make workers constantly and I do, I need to do that better' line of simplicity.
The way I watch TB is as a 'that's kinda how I feel when I play/think about the game' thing, and take great lessons from it that I just don't get from pro-level play. For example, every time TB lands his expansion, and then just drops a few mules rather than transferring workers, I cringe, because even me at lowly bronze level knows that's stupid, but the kind of mistake that 'casual' players make. And the way he reacts to mineral spikes by over-building expantions, or being supply blocked by building depots by the dozen.... I could go on, but I'm sure what I'm saying comes across.
Obviously it helps that I find him an entertaining caster, however many holes there may be in his game knowledge at times, and I'm sure that some people do just watch for entertainment alone (again, this isn't a bad thing). I just think it is a bit too one-dimensional to see him as an 'interesting personality' alone with nothing else to offer anyone.
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As a fellow Brit I feel I must put in some defence here on TB's behalf. I must admit that I don't exactly like TB's casting style though. However, he works hard for the benefit of this community and I can respect that enough to put aside any negativity that I might have.
When some people don't like something, they do their very best to attack and try to posion the person creating the thing they don't like, in the hope there will be less of it. The tactic is disgusting and I've had it used on me endlessly when running my own games (I'm a game designer) but the sad fact is that it works. No-one can keep giving if what they get back is venom and vitraol.
The fact is, it's very hard to ignore such people. They cannot be reasoned with, bargined with or changed. TB, frankly, I think you should just nuke people who come here just to take a shit on you (or get a mod to if you can't) because it'll wear you down and frankly, love or hate your style, you add to and grow this community and for that reason alone (and many others of just plain common courtsy) you should be entitled to some actual respect when addressed in your own thread.
Feedback about problems does not have to be delivered negatively. Some of the people here would do well to remember that.
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I always find it hilarious that I get the most hateful criticism from diamond/low-masters players, who like to claim that all of my fans must be bronze or non-players. Typical eliist, misplaced attitude.
If you actually knew the number of well-known pros that like my casting, you'd shit bricks. This is a fairly typical reaction of players who are of above average skill but still vastly below the level they need to make it, who over-emphasise analysis as a form of casting at the expense of everything else. Those who know how sports works realise why I do things the way I do and enjoy it.
And no, saying "U NEED TO KNOW MORE" is not constructive criticism. The mistake made by our Aussie friend is believing that his criticism is useful and should be respected. It isn't, it does not provide anything that I can learn or build from and is not presented in a remotely respectful manner. If I want constructive criticism and feedback, then I will get it from people qualified to give it.
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Haha, i've been reading quite a few pages of this thread. Why hate on a caster? And why does it matter if he's not good at the actual game, i found it hilarious to watch your reactions through various endeavours on the stream by the way. But yeah, play by play casting is more about getting the crowd excited instead of saying "why he does that and what kind of position it will throw him into" I quite like play by play and the analytical approach too.
Don't see what all the fuzz is about. Anyways, keep streaming dude its hilarious! And no your casting is awesome, burn the heretics!
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On June 09 2011 20:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I always find it hilarious that I get the most hateful criticism from diamond/low-masters players, who like to claim that all of my fans must be bronze or non-players. Typical eliist, misplaced attitude.
If you actually knew the number of well-known pros that like my casting, you'd shit bricks. This is a fairly typical reaction of players who are of above average skill but still vastly below the level they need to make it, who over-emphasise analysis as a form of casting at the expense of everything else. Those who know how sports works realise why I do things the way I do and enjoy it.
And no, saying "U NEED TO KNOW MORE" is not constructive criticism.
I'd actually love to know which casters the pros like (not specific to you), it would probably get a lot of haters to shut up. I know a lot of pros don't have time to watch, but i doubt they are all pure Tastosis/Day9 fans.
PS:
Since you don't get enough positive feedback here:
As a diamond player and wanna-be caster (yay for 3 subscribers :p) i can really appreciate what you do for E-Sports. Thanks for what you contribute and keep up the good work.
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On June 09 2011 20:40 Morfildur wrote:
I'd actually love to know which casters the pros like (not specific to you), it would probably get a lot of haters to shut up. I know a lot of pros don't have time to watch, but i doubt they are all pure Tastosis/Day9 fans.
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I would love to tell people, I really would, but 1) I'd feel shitty using pros as sticks to beat haters with and 2) I wouldn't want to open up pros to hate from irrational morons. At the end of the day, an awful lot of pros want to be treated like sportsmen and that's why they want sports-style commentary. They want to know that the commentator is getting genuinely enthusiastic over what they are doing and more to the point, not second guessing them. I've heard from more than one pro "I hate analytical commentators, they always think they know more than we do but they don't. They don't understand what it's like to play at this level or what goes on in your head when you're playing tournaments." It's not a universal truth by any means, but I've heard it from a lot of pros, particularly Europeans. At the end of the day, I think they'd rather have someone flub a few facts about their builds here and there but still convey some excitement than second guess them all the time.
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TotalBiscuit id like to thank you for your castin as well as Shoutcraft invitational. You are doing a lot for the e-sports scene and the more casters we have the better it is.
And by the way i love your youtube channel , i watch all your WTF is videos.
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Another HUGE fan here (hell i even read your posts with your voice  ) ... keep up the good work John.You've got a LOT more fans than haters, that love your work and can't wait to check everything you make. Your actions including (and one of the most important ones i may add) giving the j.tv add revenue as prize pool proves that whatever you do, you do it cause of your love for the e-sports scene and whoever denies it is being willingly blind. Don't let the hating affect you.It can be tiring at times i suppose, but on the otherhand all the fans should cheer you up and support you. That's why we are here after all.  I hope you keep doing what you do best and entertain so much us as yourself and contribute even more to the growth of e-sports.Best wishes and hope to be able to see you even more
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TotalBiscuit, what you have done for Esports is amazing you are drawing people in and giving something good to watch about the sport, I must admit the only reason i started playing SC2 was after watching all your youtube video's on it. I enjoy them all, i have made my way to high plat now. Even though i feel i know more about the game than you I'm still able to enjoy your casting and streaming because of the effort you put into it and the enthusiasm is just brilliant, its like watching a football match.
Keep it up!
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Hey Totalbiscuit. Do you like bees?
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Why do the skilled players hate on TB style casting? If anything, it would be the noobs that demand high quality analysis, because they cannot work out for themselves what's happening. I for myself have enough knowledge of the game, that the casters are just repeating what I was thinking anyhow most of the time. I want the commentary to make the game more exciting. I can do the analysis for myself.
So my opinion as a mid master level player:
I wish I could watch more TB casting especially commentating the NASL (as it's a regular event). I don't think the need for 'analysis' is a sign of a 'higher level' player/spectator.
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TB can pull off proxy BC Rushes and thats all he needs to know. nuff said.
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On June 09 2011 21:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 20:40 Morfildur wrote:
I'd actually love to know which casters the pros like (not specific to you), it would probably get a lot of haters to shut up. I know a lot of pros don't have time to watch, but i doubt they are all pure Tastosis/Day9 fans.
. I would love to tell people, I really would, but 1) I'd feel shitty using pros as sticks to beat haters with and 2) I wouldn't want to open up pros to hate from irrational morons. At the end of the day, an awful lot of pros want to be treated like sportsmen and that's why they want sports-style commentary. They want to know that the commentator is getting genuinely enthusiastic over what they are doing and more to the point, not second guessing them. I've heard from more than one pro "I hate analytical commentators, they always think they know more than we do but they don't. They don't understand what it's like to play at this level or what goes on in your head when you're playing tournaments." It's not a universal truth by any means, but I've heard it from a lot of pros, particularly Europeans. At the end of the day, I think they'd rather have someone flub a few facts about their builds here and there but still convey some excitement than second guess them all the time.
This man speaks the truth and has a lot of valid points. However there are selected few casters that actually do understand what it's like to play in a tournament environment (but these are only two or three persons). The rest just spews out crap that makes no sense and yet they're fully convinced that they are right.
I can for one vouch for TB and say that I enjoy his casting, he realizes he doesn't have the in-depth knowledge to analyze the pros playstyle and therefor doesn't attempt it. That's at least for me, highly appriciated rather than having a caster who's never in his life been put in a competitive environment, comment on my moves and saying they're stupid and doesn't make sense.
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Big fan of TB. I'm a high diamond player and I watch TB's stream occastionally because I think he's entertaining.
If I were TotalBiscuit, I wouldn't give any attention to the negative comments. The more attention you give to them, the more negative comments you'll get just trying to get more reactions out of you. Just do your thing. I always see at least a couple thousand watching your stream so you must be doing something right.
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You make BitbyBity look like a macro player. Try a FE just once, you improve a lot faster through solid macro play not one basing.
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Blasphemi wrote:
You make BitbyBity look like a macro player. Try a FE just once, you improve a lot faster through solid macro play not one basing.
Well in order to get into a macro game you also need to stay alive. A blind FE is risky.
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A caster who is excited about the game is honestly a lot more fun than a super dry commentary one.
So many people fall in this trap and are just boring to listen to, while not really having enough knowledge about the game to do proper analysis anyway.
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On June 11 2011 06:05 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 05:55 Blasphemi wrote:
You make BitbyBity look like a macro player. Try a FE just once, you improve a lot faster through solid macro play not one basing. Well in order to get into a macro game you also need to stay alive. A blind FE is risky.
Expanding before 12 minutes is not risky.
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Hey TB.
I watch your 'I suck at Starcraft' series on youtube fairly regularly and find it both entertaining and interesting, (particularly in relation to your thought processes when playing).
Just thought i'd try to offer some help regarding your play;
1. Try to expand at 6 minute intervals so you can get a feel of when it is safe to expand and when it is not. You might lose some games initially but you'll be able to improve your game dramatically when you get more experience defending pressure and macro orientated builds.
2. Use more hotkeys!
3. Following from 1, practice some fast expand builds like 1 rax expand, 2 rax pressure into expand etc.
Thanks for the content and community support!
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TB I just have to say you're the fucking guvnna. Pretty much the yin to Day 9's yang and I enjoy your casting style.
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EPT
