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Zerg is stale
Why Zerg sucks and several other complaints/suggestions
The beta has been out for two weeks now, and after watching tons of livestream the 1st week and being able to play several games on my friend’s account since last week, I’ve found that Protoss is horribly imbalanced. By imbalanced I don’t mean that they have advantages over the other races in terms of winning games, but that Protoss is extremely more interesting to play as. As a BW Zerg player, I am extremely disappointed with the current state of Zerg, as the changes made to the race have all but destroyed every aspect of BW Zerg that I loved.
The new units for Zerg are Queens, banelings, roaches, and overseers. I do not consider the infestor or corrupter/broodlord as new units as they are simply the defiler and devour/guardian in new skins. It should also be noted that lurkers and scourge have been removed, and that muta-micro is completely butchered. Although I just said the infestor was a defiler (as it is the Zergs ONLY spellcaster while the other races each have at least 2), it is really just a nerfed dark archon with some shitty summon spell( SPAWN INFESTED TERRANS IS THE STUPIDEST FUCKING SPELL IN THE GAME) instead of feedback and nerfed mind control and nerfed maelstorm (units still attack when affected).
In BW what I love so much about the Zerg is how micro-intensive they are, and how every unit has an extremely large depth to it in terms of learning how to control it properly. Muta-micro is my favorite part about BW, I love the way that mutas give Zerg countless options in tactics and strategy, and are extremely dynamic in what purposes they can serve (either purely harass, defense, or just support). I loved the way a whole multitude of playstyles were not only available but totally viable (for instance PvZ you can play very aggressive with 5 hat hydra play or go very defensive with sunken/spore/lurkers). I love the way that defilers, although the most powerful spellcaster in the game, are also hardest to use but also the most versatile spellcaster ( the way swarm placement allows infinite options to the Zerg player to hold any choke or attack any base with proper control, not to mention the usefulness of plague). I love the way Lurkers allow even more options to the Zerg. They are arguably the best defensive unit in the game, but can also be coupled with other units (defiler and zerglings) to be extremely offensive as well.
In SC2, Zerg have lost all these units (mutas might as well be completely different units as they function completely differently now and are basically useless as harass units, at least compared to BW mutas) and the options of play they provide. Currently, from my experience, Zerg play in SC2 is basically “make a bunch of roach/hydra/ling and hope its more than the other guy can kill.” There’s absolutely no finesse to any of the Zerg units (unlike the way Terran have ghosts and reapers or protoss have stalkers/sentries). With the removal of the scourge, lurker, and dark swarm (or rather the complete removal of that entire role in the Zerg army), Zerg now have 0 “defensive” units. A defensive style of play is extremely harder to pull off now, and really is just counter-intuitive. I guess mass nydus-worm (which is basically the only GOOD way to play Zerg right now) is a defensive style(although simultaneously an extremely offensive stlye), so maybe what I just said is stupid, but I feel it’s still a very makeshift defensive style.
Zerg late game options are a fucking joke right now. Either get the best unit in the game or get buffed guardians that will probably die to 1 anti-air unit just like in SC1 but you don’t even have scourge to try to defend them better (I will admit right now though that this is just my impression of broodlords as I have only used them once in a game that was already over and have rarely ever seen them used, which perhaps speaks of their usefulness already). In BW there was this beautiful dynamic (particularly in ZvT) where you finally get that 3rd gas and have the option of getting guardians (again never used), defilers, or ultras. Defilers were almost always the GOTO unit because swarm is just so fucking useful and dynamic (can be helpful in countless situations) and allowed for a completely new phase of the game to take place as you are using defilers to try to take a 4th and 5th gas to THEN get ultras. Not to mention the fact that upgrades don’t really make sense any more. Unless you just get all 3 upgrades at once, you basically either get melee which only affects early game and very lategame (lings/ultas) or missiles which only affect the mid game (roach/hydra). Without the lurker (and defiler to make late-game hydralurk viable) you have no strong unit to transition to lategame except for the ultralisk, so you might as well JUST upgrade melee.
IN SC2 there isn’t even a rush to hive, because you are only getting a hive for the sole reason of getting ultralisks (or I guess maybe upgrades for other units?). While rushing for hive being gone isn’t exactly a bad thing (im not saying its bad just because its different), it does exist solely because theres no reason to get a hive until you have an economy to switch completely to ultalisks. This means that the entire zerg lategame can ONLY revolve around ultralisks. This completely sucks, as Zerg right now have the fewest options available to them.
When the queen was first announced, I was very excited about it. I thought larva inject was a great idea and was the best new macro ability. While right now I still feel that larva inject is really cool, I feel like there are a lot of missed opportunities with the queen, primarily the fact that the queen’s other 2 spells are completely useless. I have the feeling that blizzard came up with creep tumor and it was really awesome and then 2 weeks later they made it so that every overlord can drop creep once you get a lair. At that point im quite sure they meant to take creep tumor out and replace it with something useful but they forgot to. Creep tumor might have been an interesting thing to balance out larva inject with but right now its not even worth fucking touching compared to larva inject. The heal ability is stupid too, possibly more useless than ghost energy upgrade in SC1.
Ultimately I feel the Zerg race right now is really fucking lame and not very fun at all. I think banelings are somewhat interesting, larva inject is sweet, overlords dropping creep is cool, and roaches are sorta cool with the “move while burrowed” thing (although completely boring as a unit otherwise), but ultimately Zerg to me has just boiled down to “make a bunch of shit and a-move eventually and hope he cant kill it all” which I guess could describe SC1 to an extent, but there is just an absolute lack of finesse required to the race, and more importantly I feel there is just no depth at all in any of the units. SC2 Zerg is completely broken at the moment.
Suggestions:
I feel like the 2nd tier is somewhat close to being fun again actually. I’m not completely sure what good steps to take would be, but the roach is definitely not a good Zerg unit (and unfortunately the roach is the absolute key unit in every MU for Zerg right now too -_-). My suggestion would be to replace the roach with a new unit more suitable for harass (maybe give him a cliff-hoping ability since Zerg is STILL the only race without that) that is not just a huge tank. I would recommend giving the queen new abilities besides larva inject that are actually interesting and useful, perhaps give her more defensive type spells like she was originally planned to have.
The infestor needs completely new spells. Fungal growth is OK I guess but spawn infested terrans and neural parasite (but especially spawn infested terrans) aren’t very interesting spells at all and definitely don’t feel zergy at all. I don’t get why Blizzard is sticking to their guns so much on “ZERG MUST HAVE SOME SORT OF INFESTING SPELL!” Maybe the Zerg was originally imagined to be like that 11 years ago but over that time of playing the game, they play completely differently from that (did you know no one uses queens?!).
Mutas are pretty fucking weak right now and completely not too fun to control (maybe they should just scrap mutas and bring in a new air unit so I will stop comparing them to SC1 mutas lol). The lack of muta micro has effectively eliminated them as a great harass unit, and with the removal of the lurker Zerg now have 0 harass units. Maybe I should just accept that it’s impossible to have mutas as good as they were before (I assume the only reason mutas still suck is because blizzard is unable to do it technically), but mutas will only ever be good serving a support role, at least in any way I can see. I never really use corruptors because they are the reincarnation of one of the least used units of all of SC. One that sucks is how they moved broodlords to morph from them and not mutas, so while I MIGHT use mutas (especially with the possibility of them later being turned into broodlords) once in a while, I can completely see broodlords being used much less because youre literally just building a spire to turn it into a great spire so you can build corruptors and turn them into broodlords. The overseer is fine I guess, I was never a big fan of removing detection from all overlords (although that might just be because I’m a zerg player lol) but I feel like I’m still not getting a lot out of the overseer, especially since its 50min/100gas (while observers are cheaper and permacloaked and basically better). Changelings are surprisingly good but feel really really fucking out of place, especially since it’s the overseers ONLY spell. I would like to see the overseer get some more spells, especially if they won’t make the infestor useful at all.
The absolutely biggest problem for the Zerg I feel (and already stated) the complete lack of late-game options. I feel like simply bringing the lurker back into the mix at hive tech would be sufficient to solve this (albeit a lazy solution). Ultimately The Zerg just need SOME new unit to use at hive tech that offers an alternative playstyle to ultras.
I know this is a lot of complaints but there are a lot of things I like about SC2, and maybe theres just been a fundamental shift in the playstyles the races offer as Protoss just seem to me far far more interesting than the other races (with warp-in, stalker blink micro, forcefield micro, etc) and Zerg is actually way “interesting” to some people and it’s all just a matter of taste. I don’t know. It’s true the beta has only been out for 2 weeks and normally it’s far too early to make conclusions such as “zerg is broke,” but right now it’s very very hard for me to see Zerg sneaking up on me and being way cool, at least without a lot of changes.
List of other complaints that don’t really fit into what I just wrote (lol):
ZvT is fucking broken right now. Maybe im just playing it completely wrong but every ZvT I’ve played has just been early game I contain the Terran with lings or banelings or roaches and maybe win a few skirmishes and feel pretty far ahead. Then it hits the midgame and it just completey boils down to mass medivac armies vs mass nydus worm defense/offense (where I basically put my whole army in nydus network and either defend vs mass drops or try to doom drop) and it generally just last more than 5 minutes past that point.
SPAWN INFESTED TERRANS IS FUCKING LAME
I want to also repeat things we’ve heard about hard counters and how the game focuses too much on unit composition. I feel this is/could be a big problem in the fundamental design of the game.
I haven't really seen this YET and I feel its just because the game is only 2 weeks old and no one is “good” at it yet, but I feel there might be too much “goddamnit” units in the game. For instance the reason I hate modern warfare 2 so much is that there is a bunch of shit in the game that kills you instantly and you cant really do anything about it. While its true a good player can always scout and prepare for anything, theres a lot of stuff in the game I feel that is just TOO GOOD and while each race has it, it still isn’t FUN. Examples being 4 reapers can kill a nexus in like 8 seconds, warprays can kill anything so fast, medivac mass drop is really lame, nydus worm attacks are super lame (and basically the only sound strategy).
I complained that larva inject wasnt balanced out with anything interesting, but its 10x worse for terran. MULES are clearly much better than scan (for the most part), but ultimately the worst part about MULEs is that balancing them out with scan isn’t really fun at all. Super supply depots make me lol.
Basically almost every spell is a variant of stasis (IE freezes units) or psi storm (IE target unit and do damage to it). Every race I guess needs one, but there are way too many spells that are way too similar.
Things I DO like: (or well, a small list of my favorite things about SC2)
I said it before and ill say it one more time, Protoss is really cool. This is probably because they are the most polished race of the 3 (and maybe blizzard just sorta ran out of good ideas half way through terran?), but they just have way more interesting units (or maybe just the most NEW units and abilities?). Forcefield is probably my favorite spell in the game, as it is just super creative and offers up all sorts of great micro moments and theres a ton of room for creativity. Warp-in is badass and warp-prisms are great too. Blink is awesome (even though just taken out of WC3). I would LOVE to see more spells like forcefield that aren’t just “target enemy and do damage to it” as almost all spells are like that now (and so few were like that in SC1 ).
Overlords dropping creep is probably my favorite new addition to Zerg,
Reapers are pretty sweet although I wish they still had that cool grenade ability
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Thats a lot of text, I got dizzy just from scrolling :o
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Your thread title doesn't really line up with what you are saying : /
edit: but yeah, Zerg is pretty "boring" in terms of depth of gameplay right now
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tl;dr
Mod Edit: Don't do this again ;;
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and lol at saying zvt is imba, zvt is prob the most balanced match up right now
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Great job writing an essay about imbalance in a beta that has been out for 1 1/2 weeks.
Even worse, Protoss isn't imba.
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I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss.
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Well I think some things about protoss are a bit overexagerated, I think colossus should move slower, and the dmg you do to immortals shield is like Halved or something instead of capped at 10, maybe cap it at 20?
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On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss.
what? sentries owns mutas lol
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On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss.
I was actually a little hesitant to put that in because I've heard this (although never experienced it or seen it happen) but then later I heard sentries are just a super strong counter to them? And then i still see threads saying zvp is too hard etc.
I admit i havent played the beta nearly enough for many facts such as "mutas are useless" to be true yet, but i guess its just I they seem to me right now.
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Odd, I have no issues beating most Plat div toss players with Zerg or Terran and I suck. In fact I would go as to say Z has a sizable edge over Toss.
ZvT I would say is the most balanced match up, and is the funnest to play as both races to me.
PvP and ZvZ are very boring to me tho
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i think fayth might fucking be right this is probably too long for the fucking sc2 forum rofl
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How about you just enjoy the imbalance for now and find creative ways to deal with it instead of making blocks of text for a 2 week old beta.
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United States11390 Posts
On March 02 2010 12:21 HazMat wrote:
Great job writing an essay about imbalance in a beta that has been out for 1 1/2 weeks.
Even worse, Protoss isn't imba.
You could at least read the first paragraph.
I’ve found that Protoss is horribly imbalanced. By imbalanced I don’t mean that they have advantages over the other races in terms of winning games, but that Protoss is extremely more interesting to play as. As a BW Zerg player, I am extremely disappointed with the current state of Zerg, as the changes made do the race have all but destroyed every aspect of BW Zerg that I loved.
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i totally agree, zerg just seems boring and stale right now, its played like protoss in sc1 but without interesting spellcasters
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On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol
yes cause sentries can cover both your bases at the same time vs 10+ mutas. its near impossible to move out against mutas.
You are absolutely right about sentries dealing with mutas well, but they have terrible mobility compared to mutas, not to mention storm is weaker vs mutas now, and archon splash is super tiny and can't deal with mutas effectively now.
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hahaah o god. zerg is so good right now i dont know how u can come to this conclusion
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On March 02 2010 12:29 StarsPride wrote:
hahaah o god. zerg is so good right now i dont know how u can come to this conclusion
he hasn't played a zerg that went mutas yet obviously
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Hey dude, I got 2 paragraphs into your post before seeing 3 flat assertions that are flatly wrong. I don't think you are in the right mind to be making posts like this right now, you seem like you just got mad after a bad loss and you've got this tunnel vision negativity going on where you can't see the forest for the trees. You don't sound like you understand Zerg at all, and I know you have 3643 posts and I don't care what your ICCUP rank is -_-
>>> (mutas might as well be completely different units as they function completely differently now and are basically useless as harass units
What? I can scarcely believe I'm reading this, if you can't get T who doesn't have 2+ turrets at his CC to pull workers off his minerals with 4 mutas then I am unsure what to say about that. Of course, if T has turrets and marines with stim in his main, then no, perhaps you won't get away with muta harass at that time. But then, in that case, why didn't you scout and why did you make mutas etc etc. Edit: I didn't mention Protoss here because Mutas are even more powerful against Protoss than against Terran unless they stick with 1 base and get many Sentries, at which point a mix of roach and lings will bust his shit because Sentries cost 100 gas each, gas that would otherwise be spent on shit like Immortals and Colossus down the line to counter Zerg's fecundity.
>>> Zerg to me has just boiled down to “make a bunch of shit and a-move eventually and hope he cant kill it all”
How's that plan working out for you? You know there is so much more that Zerg can be doing, right? Is there a reason you aren't harassing or making drops with Nydus or Overlords, burrow 3 Roaches and pop up next to the Refinery when he moves out? Fuck, since this is SC2, why not shoot some Infested Terran eggs up the cliff into the mineral line and then attack his other holdings when he comes to kill them? That sentence denies the existence of any of the above, so...? Are you lacking in creativity and excessively angry and assertive about your beliefs maybe? If your response to the above is "BUT HE KEEPS COUNTERING ME SO I JUST SIT IN MY MAIN AND MAKE UNITS WITHOUT HARASSING, SCOUTING, OR ENGAGING HIM" then mine is "A storm is coming."
You said one thing I think everyone can agree with though:
( SPAWN INFESTED TERRANS IS THE STUPIDEST FUCKING SPELL IN THE GAME)
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On March 02 2010 12:29 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol yes cause sentries can cover both your bases at the same time vs 10+ mutas. its near impossible to move out against mutas. You are absolutely right about sentries dealing with mutas well, but they have terrible mobility compared to mutas, not to mention storm is weaker vs mutas now, and archon splash is super tiny and can't deal with mutas effectively now.
just like archons had terrible mobility compared to mutas in BW.... also the fact u can warp sentries instantly everywhere you have pylons makes it fairly easy to not get harassed
just add a bunch of cannons everywhere, leave a few sentries while you keep expoing
I don't think it's that hard at all, you need less sentries than mutas to deal with em so you can be fine moving out and expanding.
I don't think it's imbalanced at all
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On March 02 2010 12:31 Gedrah wrote:Hey dude, I got 2 paragraphs into your post before seeing 3 flat assertions that are flatly wrong. I don't think you are in the right mind to be making posts like this right now, you seem like you just got mad after a bad loss and you've got this tunnel vision negativity going on where you can't see the forest for the trees. You don't sound like you understand Zerg at all, and I know you have 3643 posts and I don't care what your ICCUP rank is -_- >>> (mutas might as well be completely different units as they function completely differently now and are basically useless as harass units What? I can scarcely believe I'm reading this, if you can't get T who doesn't have 2+ turrets at his CC to pull workers off his minerals with 4 mutas then I am unsure what to say about that. Of course, if T has turrets and marines with stim in his main, then no, perhaps you won't get away with muta harass at that time. But then, in that case, why didn't you scout and why did you make mutas etc etc. Edit: I didn't mention Protoss here because Mutas are even more powerful against Protoss than against Terran unless they stick with 1 base and get many Sentries, at which point a mix of roach and lings will bust his shit... >>> Zerg to me has just boiled down to “make a bunch of shit and a-move eventually and hope he cant kill it all” How's that plan working out for you? You know there is so much more that Zerg can be doing, right? Is there a reason you aren't harassing or making drops with Nydus or Overlords, burrow 3 Roaches and pop up next to the Refinery when he moves out? Fuck, since this is SC2, why not shoot some Infested Terran eggs up the cliff into the mineral line and then attack his other holdings when he comes to kill them? That sentence denies the existence of any of the above, so...? Are you lacking in creativity and excessively angry and assertive about your beliefs maybe? If your response to the above is "BUT HE KEEPS COUNTERING ME SO I JUST SIT IN MY MAIN AND MAKE UNITS WITHOUT HARASSING, SCOUTING, OR ENGAGING HIM" then mine is "A storm is coming." You said one thing I think everyone can agree with though:
i admit i haven really played enough to be completely sure of all of this, but I've never seen mutas be good in a game lol. and I'm not completely sure if i read it right but you just said "mutas are great if he has under 2 turrets!" lolwut
but really, doom drops fall in the category of "make a lot of shit and hope he cant kill it all". I guess roaches are the new harass unit, but dont really work well if the guy has any detection at all in front of his base (although i guess overlord drop might be good for that now that you bring it up).
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This easy race imba crap is going to occur in SC2 now? Damn.
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rofl i thought protoss is imba would be a good title to get people to read the OP but i guess its just a good title to get people to post without reading.
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On March 02 2010 12:32 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:29 StorrZerg wrote:On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol yes cause sentries can cover both your bases at the same time vs 10+ mutas. its near impossible to move out against mutas. You are absolutely right about sentries dealing with mutas well, but they have terrible mobility compared to mutas, not to mention storm is weaker vs mutas now, and archon splash is super tiny and can't deal with mutas effectively now. just like archons had terrible mobility compared to mutas in BW.... also the fact u can warp sentries instantly everywhere you have pylons makes it fairly easy to not get harassed just add a bunch of cannons everywhere, leave a few sentries while you keep expoing I don't think it's that hard at all, you need less sentries than mutas to deal with em so you can be fine moving out and expanding. I don't think it's imbalanced at all
Man you really crack me up. In bw, the splash from archons worked well, and you never wanted to engage them with your mutas, you don't have this fear in sc2, you can crush them so fast with minimal splash.
Yes so i have to add 5-6 cannons at each mineral line (which might not be enough) I can warp sentries in anywhere yes, but whats stopping his mutas from sniping them while they morph in?
And if he does a quick hydra tech switch, thats going to roll your sentry cannon defense quite easy.
in bw you could at least mass sairs to be a pretty hard counter to mutas, there is no strong counter to mass mutas in beta. To get a 3rd expansion, you have to pray you can set up cannons with out him knowing, or abuse dts to crawl your self back into the game.
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Doom drop isn't what you wanna do. The purpose of harass is to whittle your opponent down, weaken his economy and concentration. 1 Overlord with 4 Roaches can really mess shit up, you drop them, burrow them (yes that's a lot of gas tech) and then pop up when your opponent needs to be paying attention to something else. Either he splits focus and loses units on both fronts, or he picks one and loses a lot at the one where he isn't paying attention.
Or he's Gosu and you weren't going to beat him anyway.
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Mutas are borderline overpowered in sc2. Vs toss a good zerg can easily take out your probe line without having to worry about storm/archons (they are pitiful in sc2 and in a dire need of buffs). Sentries are a decent counter to mutas but only in an open battlefield, not when zerg can be mobile and move from your nat to main harassing.
IF they made phoenix decent vs mutas or gave it that overload ability back I think that would help fix the issue with mutas.
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On March 02 2010 12:38 neVern wrote:
This easy race imba crap is going to occur in SC2 now? Damn.
durrr, but its still beta, no need to get your panties in a bunch
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lol nice write up. It's a shame no one seems to be able to read it :/
I think zerg is one interesting unit/spell/ability away from being finished. Protoss and terran look pretty good overall imo (though it seems the distinction between the races is being blurred) just needs a few number tweaks.
Maybe a swarmish ability for the queen, researchable at hive. Bringing back the lurker would be the easy solution (like you said I think).
quick question: can medivacs shuttle units? And if so is it innate or researchable?
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On March 02 2010 12:41 jonnyp wrote:
lol nice write up. It's a shame no one seems to be able to read it :/
I think zerg is one interesting unit/spell/ability away from being finished. Protoss and terran look pretty good overall imo (though it seems the distinction between the races is being blurred) just needs a few number tweaks.
Maybe a swarmish ability for the queen, researchable at hive. Bringing back the lurker would be the easy solution (like you said I think).
quick question: can medivacs shuttle units? And if so is it innate or researchable?
Really your last question is super bad....
if you bothered to look up anything about them you'd know that they are drop ships with heal
as for research-able stuff, they have an energy upgrade thats it
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In terms of interesting stuff I agree that protoss is on top. WTF at terran though. That race needs a complete overhaul to be interesting a bit.
I didn't like roaches before beta. I now think they are rather fun unit. Time will tell if they fit well in end product.
Does anyone else think hydras have lost their flavor in sc2 though? Something went wrong somewhere I think.
Muta are currently very powerful in beta and you can still micro them but I'm not sure how close you can get to the sniping style of bw. Current muta control in bw is only a modern thing and bw was amazing before that. Don't make me defend sc2 -_-;;
Keep in mind zergs transport ability is rape.
Dynamic of how units interact with own units and vs other races is really what the big thing will be. Was anyone confident in this happening though? I mean really sc1 was a huge fluke the way it turned out to be so good for competitive play. Blizz decided to throw in speed fastest for shits and giggles lol.
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On March 02 2010 12:39 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:32 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:29 StorrZerg wrote:On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol yes cause sentries can cover both your bases at the same time vs 10+ mutas. its near impossible to move out against mutas. You are absolutely right about sentries dealing with mutas well, but they have terrible mobility compared to mutas, not to mention storm is weaker vs mutas now, and archon splash is super tiny and can't deal with mutas effectively now. just like archons had terrible mobility compared to mutas in BW.... also the fact u can warp sentries instantly everywhere you have pylons makes it fairly easy to not get harassed just add a bunch of cannons everywhere, leave a few sentries while you keep expoing I don't think it's that hard at all, you need less sentries than mutas to deal with em so you can be fine moving out and expanding. I don't think it's imbalanced at all Man you really crack me up. In bw, the splash from archons worked well, and you never wanted to engage them with your mutas, you don't have this fear in sc2, you can crush them so fast with minimal splash. Yes so i have to add 5-6 cannons at each mineral line (which might not be enough) I can warp sentries in anywhere yes, but whats stopping his mutas from sniping them while they morph in? And if he does a quick hydra tech switch, thats going to roll your sentry cannon defense quite easy. in bw you could at least mass sairs to be a pretty hard counter to mutas, there is no strong counter to mass mutas in beta. To get a 3rd expansion, you have to pray you can set up cannons with out him knowing, or abuse dts to crawl your self back into the game.
so storms don't hit mutas at all now?
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I have actually flown into storms because I can't tell what area they are hitting. I was no where near the animation and my mutas were draining life super fast...so it works both ways.
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On March 02 2010 12:43 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:41 jonnyp wrote:
lol nice write up. It's a shame no one seems to be able to read it :/
I think zerg is one interesting unit/spell/ability away from being finished. Protoss and terran look pretty good overall imo (though it seems the distinction between the races is being blurred) just needs a few number tweaks.
Maybe a swarmish ability for the queen, researchable at hive. Bringing back the lurker would be the easy solution (like you said I think).
quick question: can medivacs shuttle units? And if so is it innate or researchable? Really your last question is super bad.... if you bothered to look up anything about them you'd know that they are drop ships with heal as for research-able stuff, they have an energy upgrade thats it
that's not very nice 
I had no idea where to look. The latest thread on TL with 'medivac' in the title is almost 2 years old, nothing on google for 'medivac' either, nor could I find anything on the sc2 official site. So yeah, I did look it up. Just a harmless, slightly off-topic question that was easily answerable. It wasn't even a question so much as looking for confirmation.
OT: I'm still excited to play sc2 though, I think it's definitely good for at LEAST a year's entertainment (crossing my fingers for 10+  ). I'm confident blizzard will make this game fun.
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From what I know storms are pretty bad vs muta right now.
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On March 02 2010 12:54 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:39 StorrZerg wrote:On March 02 2010 12:32 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:29 StorrZerg wrote:On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol yes cause sentries can cover both your bases at the same time vs 10+ mutas. its near impossible to move out against mutas. You are absolutely right about sentries dealing with mutas well, but they have terrible mobility compared to mutas, not to mention storm is weaker vs mutas now, and archon splash is super tiny and can't deal with mutas effectively now. just like archons had terrible mobility compared to mutas in BW.... also the fact u can warp sentries instantly everywhere you have pylons makes it fairly easy to not get harassed just add a bunch of cannons everywhere, leave a few sentries while you keep expoing I don't think it's that hard at all, you need less sentries than mutas to deal with em so you can be fine moving out and expanding. I don't think it's imbalanced at all Man you really crack me up. In bw, the splash from archons worked well, and you never wanted to engage them with your mutas, you don't have this fear in sc2, you can crush them so fast with minimal splash. Yes so i have to add 5-6 cannons at each mineral line (which might not be enough) I can warp sentries in anywhere yes, but whats stopping his mutas from sniping them while they morph in? And if he does a quick hydra tech switch, thats going to roll your sentry cannon defense quite easy. in bw you could at least mass sairs to be a pretty hard counter to mutas, there is no strong counter to mass mutas in beta. To get a 3rd expansion, you have to pray you can set up cannons with out him knowing, or abuse dts to crawl your self back into the game. so storms don't hit mutas at all now?
They are less effective now... MUCH less effective less damage.
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On March 02 2010 12:59 CagedMind wrote:
From what I know storms are pretty bad vs muta right now.
So k, Fayth is just a troll with connections.
edit: lolz guess not that good since he just got rebanned
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On March 02 2010 12:39 Ideas wrote:
rofl i thought protoss is imba would be a good title to get people to read the OP but i guess its just a good title to get people to post without reading.
Well, really, you are on the internet--what did you expect? 
Edit for content: Yeah I think Zerg is gonna get some more content. Remember that they took out Lurkers to see where Zerg was weakest, presumably to re-insert them once they figure out that weak point. Patience will pay off
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On March 02 2010 12:39 Ideas wrote:
rofl i thought protoss is imba would be a good title to get people to read the OP but i guess its just a good title to get people to post without reading.
This post totally redeemed this thread lol
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On March 02 2010 13:04 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:59 CagedMind wrote:
From what I know storms are pretty bad vs muta right now. So k, Fayth is just a troll with connections. edit: lolz guess not that good since he just got rebanned
troll with connections? wtf I play SC2, We even played lol
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I don't think things are tangible enough yet, but I agree infester is so terrible atm.
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what's the infestor's spell except the thing that refrain our units from moving?
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IMO Zerg is the funnest race to play right now. I love em
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how many accounts does Fayth have? O.o
TL needs to learn how to IP-ban
anyways the only problem imo is that zerg just doesnt have a spellcaster worth a shit right now. spellcasters naturally played a huge in all the matchups (except zvz, cause that matchup is just stupid) and those spellcasters more or less defined the races. Zerg lost the defiler, and got it replaced with... the infestor.... which im sure everyone agrees is absolute shit.
That and in comparison to protoss, where EVERY unit has an ability/special function, zerg units are retardedly one-dimensional. zerglings, hydras, mutas, ultras, ie the staple units, have no function other than attack units.
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Your shirt is too small.
Seriously though, everything you said is true to a point, moreso that its NOT true because its beta and it's going to be fixed. If it isnt, then SC2 is just going to waddle along its own way. The only problem with your complaint about Zerg is that people will overlook every complaint about Z thanks to their magnificent tier 1 boy wonder the roach. If you'll look at the poll currently going on right now, no one thinks Zerg has a reason to complain about anything. To be more specific, no Protoss want to hear Zerg whining as long as they have mutalisks and roachs, Terran could care less. It's like SC1 all over again for me, I see Z and P players calling 'imba' or trying to work it differently but when it comes to down to it its the same thing. 'Your race is better than mine' while all Terran players are neutral because they have a nice solid answer to everything.
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Thank you for your well-informed, carefully thought out, and well-presented thoughts on the current state of the Protoss race (i.e. IMBA) and Zerg race (i.e. SUCKS) in SC2.
Due to your carefully-documented and argued thesis, I have changed my position on all these issues and now agree 100% with you on absolutely everything. Thank you.
Either get the best unit in the game or get buffed guardians that will probably die to 1 anti-air unit just like in SC1 but you don’t even have scourge to try to defend them better (I will admit right now though that this is just my impression of broodlords as I have only used them once in a game that was already over and have rarely ever seen them used, which perhaps speaks of their usefulness already)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Broodlords are really really powerful. They should be a staple in any long ZvP
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United States4991 Posts
Phoenixes are amazing units in general. Incorporating them into PvZ helps a lot, and they also double as mobile (they are REALLY fast, Mutas look sluggish ) defense against Mutalisks.
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On March 02 2010 13:54 Insane wrote:Phoenixes are amazing units in general. Incorporating them into PvZ helps a lot, and they also double as mobile (they are REALLY fast, Mutas look sluggish ) defense against Mutalisks.
I agree here. I love using Phoenixes because of their mobility. Like Insane wrote, they are pretty damn fast and you can use them to pick off overlords or bang up some mutalisks. Unfortunately, massing phoenixes vs mass mutalisks doesn't work since zerg can pump them WAY faster.
In some instances, I've used some phoenixes as support to CC (crowd control) important units in smaller battles. For example, pushing Zerg, I would use the Gravity ability to freeze the queen or any other units so my ground can kill them faster.
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Ideas, you need to change the title of your post, a lot of people think your post is about imbalances and not the blandness of SC2 Zerg, because they don't read more than the title.
I made almost the exact same post a while back 
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113875
Perhaps even Blizzard feel the same and will do a total overhaul of the SC2 Zerg. I feel that is their only option, and fire the war3dev guy that is in charge of development of SC2 Zerg.
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New Protoss attack scheme
1aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I kid I kid...
No, honestly, I feel like as of right now Sentry's are truly limited Zerg's ability to play the early game into mid game as they completely Nullify (Get it, their original name!) any sort of small Bio army. Roaches need to destroy shields like they did in SC1 if zerg is to get any sort of early breathing room.
As for late game, I feel like you're just under estimating the unit comp that zerg has. Granted, your late game caster blows, but a zerg could probably keep up punch for punch with protoss if they used banelings/fungal growth/neural parasite correctly - although, I'm not sure - does fungal growth stop massive units like the colossus
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The one worry i have is Blizzard just patching sc2 up constantly as an answer to people QQing about IMBA. I say let the creative players find a way to counter builds, plz dont patch every 3 weeks like friggin WoW, thank u
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On March 02 2010 21:16 [Leo]Se7en wrote:
The one worry i have is Blizzard just patching sc2 up constantly as an answer to people QQing about IMBA. I say let the creative players find a way to counter builds, plz dont patch every 3 weeks like friggin WoW, thank u
Blizzard is probably smarter than you think with regards to balance. Sometimes I think like you do but when I read some interviews or general information they release then it appears they are very much on top of things.
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On March 02 2010 12:25 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. I was actually a little hesitant to put that in because I've heard this (although never experienced it or seen it happen) but then later I heard sentries are just a super strong counter to them? And then i still see threads saying zvp is too hard etc. I admit i havent played the beta nearly enough for many facts such as "mutas are useless" to be true yet, but i guess its just I they seem to me right now.
Because sentries suck to everything else
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I wont go in about imba topic but I soooooooooo have to agree that zerg is just sort of boring atm compared to the other races, especially to protoss.
Roach seems to be a very useful unit, but it doesnt have the same flair as hydras, it just doesnt look cool and the attack animation is boring too. Although gameplay wise I do like them alot with moving while burrowed and awesome regeneration. But the
But still, meanwhile protoss have such cool additions, sentries with their awesome shields and force fields, colossi, warp gates, void rays.
and Zerg? I guess they just have the roach and banelings as decent new units. Brood lords after all is just a pimped guardian and while it might be very powerful it just looks really really weird with the attack animation, shooting living creatures from the sky... when your some squishy low health unit like the broodling I would imagine it would be dead after getting shot from way up high by some flying creature with like 100mph.
Zerg just has imo no unit that makes you go "man that unit is just so cool"
It all really makes me think I'll have to switch races when SC2 comes out, even though I love zerg :/
Not that I'm worried about balance, I'm sure that blizzard will balance the game nicely at some point in the future.
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To the OP, I completely agree. The Zerg needs some serious reworking. As you said, they should be about massing units, and hence their units should be cheaper and a bit more fragile. The tier 1 roach (with crazy armor and hp) and tier 2 hydra (with increased supply count) go completely counter to this.
My suggestions...
Infestor:
Scrap all current spells.
Add "toxic cloud" spell. This spells casts a ground based projectile which emits a toxic cloud. The cloud expands along the linear path of projectile and around its final resting place (a tear shaped pattern). The cloud consists of billions of tiny Zerg micro organisms which attack any foreign unit inside the cloud. The effects are growing damage over the longer time and growing slow rate against foreign units. Foreign units which spend too much time in the cloud will be completely immobilized. Lasts 30 seconds or until projectile is destroy + time to dissipate the cloud.
Add "obscuring mist" spell. This spell casts a large puff of mist hiding all units, both allied and unallied, in the mist. All units in the mist,s, both allied and unallied, are invisible to the enemy. This means you can make enemy units disappear to enemy. When the enemy's units are invisible they cannot attack and do not issue warnings or other sounds/messages. They can be selected while invisible and moved, but they will not be able to attack or issue notification unless a detector is near.
Add "consume". This spell allows the infestor to eat a unit to add energy.
Allow infestor to cast spells while burrowed
Roach:
Allow the roach to heal at the same rate both above and below ground. Increase move speed. Reduce hit points, armor, and cost.
Hydra:
Keep at tier 2, but reduce the attack strength and lower by 1 its supply limit. Reduce the cost. Add speed upgrade option.
Zergling:
Increase the attack rate of adrenal gland upgrade. Increase speed upgrade.
Burrow:
Move burrow to tier one upgrade
Remove move while burrowed from all units
Mutalisk:
Allow for fast response from commands, perhaps increase movement speed. Increase attack speed, perhaps lower attack damage.
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On March 02 2010 12:16 Ideas wrote:
Protoss is IMBA
I agree! Good day sir
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While i dont agree with parts of the OP, I do agree with the general idea that Zerg is indeed the most bland and boring race out of the 3. The reason for this is the lack of any intresting lair unit(such as the lurker) aswell as the lack of a powerfull spellcaster at hive tech.
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I agree with the OP in all things except for brood lords. Those fuckers are invincible. Always accompanied by corruptors to deal with anti air, it is gg when they finish morphing. I've played about 10 games with them and won every single one within a minute of them reaching the enemy main.
That said, they are missing units. Their spell casters (infestor and overseer) suck and are one dimensional, and they are missing mid/late game units. Also hydras are too slow and have no depth anymore because they only have one upgrade and no upgrade path into lurker.
Movement while burrowing showed promise but is a disappointment because detection comes out way too fast for the other races. Terran now has guaranteed comsat what 2.5 minutes into the game? And since it isn't an addon, it's unsnipeable. Protoss seems to always go robo bay against zerg for obvious reasons and has observers out optionally within 6 minutes. Between that, static defense, and wallins any serious investment into burrow movement is essentially wasted.
Muta are effective but boring and also have no upgrade path anymore, same as hydras. Corruptors are even more boring. They are so generic I can't even describe it. Roaches really really suck from a gameplay perspective. I'm glad marauders and immortals hard counter them, so that I don't have to use them in those matchup. ZvZ really sucks. I haven't even played that many, but I already hate it.
I really hope their next patch will focus on zerg.
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Defilers were considered useless for a very long time, maybe we need some pros to show us replays of how the infestor is used effectively and everyone will hop on the bandwagon.
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Roach and Hydra are too alike, muta is slow paced, zerglings do all the work for you with the AI, etc... The race has lost the interactivity that it had in BW.
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Holy crap, great post OP.
I completely agree that the lurker should be brought back. It was just such a dynamic and interesting unit in SC1, with so many possibilities.
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The lurker is not a disposable, mass producable unit that moves fast so he doesn't fit the zerg race at all, that's why they took him out.
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I partially agree and partially disagree.
It's true that Zerg has lost some of its micro flavor that it has in BW. I think one of the main causes on that is the improved AI though. But a lot of zerg fights boil down to just tossing the biggest army of unit X (substitude with lings / roaches / hydras / mutas) at your opponent and either win or lose.
I read the OP though and to be honest, though I can see the underlying issue. It's a bunch of QQ.
You just keep on going and going how you prefered BW units and how you miss defilers.
This is a new game, man up and get to know the new units. Though zerg lost some obvious micro flavor there is still a lot remaining.
Don't dismiss something because it's new. There are some really sweet combos.
The infestor can be really strong if used defensively. Parasite something like a colossus and you can turn the fight around in a split second. The snare can be quite good too. I agree that the infested terrans kinda suck.
But seriously stop bitching because it isnt a copy of BW.
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So many new people here. OP i am in 100% agreement with you! Zerg are stale, and frankly i don't think that i will play them if i do decide to buy sc2. Ohh well Blizz will do what they want, and all of the newbs will be happy about it. SC2 will never be anywhere close to the epic that was BW. But hey who cares? I love it when something so beautiful is run over by the masses of foaming at the mouth kids. I mean hey- SC2 is shiny, and there fore the must buy it!
Why does SC2 strike me as a huge joke of a game?
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Agree with OP.
For people who can't read: the problem isn't that Zerg is "underpowered", just that it's BORING, STALE, compared to SC1.
As was very well pointed out, there is no unit that promotes finesse. It's all AMove, win or lose. No, the infestor spells aren't good. Yes, Nydus is another AMove with a shortcut. Yes, roaches are tough and can do damage and be used to harass (although detection is a lot easier to come by in general) but why give Zerg a T1 "tank" unit? Hydras feel wrong at 2 supply, and are slow as hell. No lurkers which is one of the most interesting units gameplay wise because "it doesn't fit lore"? Give me a break, save that line for WOW. If you're going to cut scourge, lurker, defiler and make hydras 2 supply+slow, you better have something interesting to compensate. Right now all we have is the roach. The roach is bland as can be. It doesn't even look good when walking around.
To top all this greatness off, the Zerg sound effects in SC2 are also uninspired when not outright bad. I think just about everyone can agree on that.
For the obsessive individuals who are seeing just about every complaint as a SC1 nostalgia whine, nobody here is complaining about the novelty factor when it comes to Protoss, for instance. This isn't a biased argument because one JUST cares about Zerg. The new Zerg is objectively not remotely as interesting as the new Toss or Terran. The ONLY saving grace of Zerg in SC2 is larva injection.
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is awesome32274 Posts
For 10 TL COOL POINTS: Guess how wonderful Mutas were in SC1 when the game was released?
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the time used to write how imba SC2 beta is, could have been spend saving a person.
ARC - act of random mercy
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For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch...
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On March 03 2010 00:19 Nyth wrote:
I partially agree and partially disagree.
It's true that Zerg has lost some of its micro flavor that it has in BW. I think one of the main causes on that is the improved AI though. But a lot of zerg fights boil down to just tossing the biggest army of unit X (substitude with lings / roaches / hydras / mutas) at your opponent and either win or lose.
I read the OP though and to be honest, though I can see the underlying issue. It's a bunch of QQ.
You just keep on going and going how you prefered BW units and how you miss defilers.
This is a new game, man up and get to know the new units. Though zerg lost some obvious micro flavor there is still a lot remaining.
Don't dismiss something because it's new. There are some really sweet combos.
The infestor can be really strong if used defensively. Parasite something like a colossus and you can turn the fight around in a split second. The snare can be quite good too. I agree that the infested terrans kinda suck.
But seriously stop bitching because it isnt a copy of BW.
just because its new doesnt mean it has to be boring as shit
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On March 03 2010 00:15 wintergt wrote:
The lurker is not a disposable, mass producable unit that moves fast so he doesn't fit the zerg race at all, that's why they took him out.
Neither is the Ultralisk and the Broodlord...
Although I like the Zerg right now and I would play them when Sc2 comes out, I do agree that they are missing...something. The fell very bland and simple in terms of unit specialization. I would totally agree on bringing the Lurker back.
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Simple question, how many of the people who posted previously in this thread have played over 100 games in this beta?
truthfully we wont see many units FULL potential for months to come and timings are exploited and zerg players figure out timings of when to power drones and when to mass troops.
Im like 80% sure people are whining about muta, scourge, lurker, and defiler because those were zergs go to units in SC1 and they are so used to those units that anything else is foreign ground. Terrans dont have the same OP tanks as they did in SC1 and they arnt exactly complaining
oh BTW lurkers wernt in original starcraft they were added in the expantion
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so wait, you haven't even played the game, but make massive rants about how a race plays...
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Russian Federation410 Posts
I played over 100 games for Z in this Beta, close to ~130 now.
I can't be bothered to read all that, heres' my take. Zerg is now:
a. Boring. Roaches, an early powerful unit that absolutely needs to be pushed out kills everything it faces and all the fun with it. The role of Zerglings has been downgraded significantly.
b. Not challenging at all for Zerg user. The Zerg units setup in StarCraft II reminds me of an early version of StarCraft, pre Brood War. Let's say in StarCraft 1.04 there were no medics, lurkers, corsairs, no muta micro either. Hydralisks were 75 minerals only, later added + 25 gas, they were slower, had shorter attack range (sounds familiar, doesn't it?). Also there was no variation, only unit at Tier 2 was Mutalisk, and it was just as useful as Muta can be without Micro.
c. Zerg is now very similar to Protoss in SCBW. It has a strong early unit/combination, like never before. It can easliy live off and produce tons of units with 2 bases, there is no real need to go to Hive Tech, because there're no defilers and new Guardians or whatever they're called just suck.
As a result of all that I believe Zerg needs to be retooled.
1. Baneling Nest should be an upgrade for Pool available on Lair Tech, as a trade-off banes should be made more powerful overall, and especially against protoss, maybe 120% hit on shields.
2. Remove 'underground movement' ability from roaches, immense healing speed while burrowed is more than enough.
3. Add a mutation or an upgrade for roach that would make it easier to stop early Protoss immortal push, it needs stopping power, not offensive power. Roach as a unit should not be able to win all the matchups. Perhaps a +defence or +something on your own creep.
4. Bring back lurkers or a variation of Hydralis mutation to create a level 2.5 tech, capable of moving while burrowed.
5. Mutalisks to compensate for the lost micro need some sort of an extra third upgrade extending the range a tiny bit or even better - the amount of consecutively hit targets by whatever they attack with.
6. Zerg needs a better caster unit on 2nd tier, maybe bring back Plague capable of damaging only to 50% or by a set, but short amount/time, slowing regeneration/healing rate, keep mind control ability.
7. Lings need to be a little tougher, maybe at the expense of decreased speed with glands researched.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch...
How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol.
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I opened up a bag of chips as i read this and they were stale i T_T instantly
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On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol.
So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS).
I guess that's the Argentinian way?
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On March 03 2010 00:15 wintergt wrote:
The lurker is not a disposable, mass producable unit that moves fast so he doesn't fit the zerg race at all, that's why they took him out.
No, they took him out b/c things don't fit b/c the caster doesn't have a good role and b/c lurkers don't fit at tier 3 seige units.
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On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way?
First of all: TL 10 cmds see the 6th rule, be carefull because im pretty sure your breaking it or close to with that argentinian comment.
Secondly i think you'll find that it's irelavent anyways seeing as the sc2 team is pretty new, most of the original guys left, mainly to join arenanet. And even if they didn't, it's still been 11 years since they made starcraft, and 5 since they have made an rts.
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People were pointing this stuff out when the Zerg were first revealed. Removing scourge, defilers, and lurkers is OK as long as you have something cool to replace them with. Otherwise we are talking a massive downgrade, and that's pretty much what happened. I always thought scourge chasing dropships/vessels, lurkers scuttling towards the frontline, and defilers desperately consuming and doing leapfrog swarms etc. was all really entertaining and fun. Where's the beef, Blizzard?
But hey, at least the Zerg art is pretty slick. Check out the Terran units. You build a marine, then a slightly fatter marine, then a marine the size of a CC. Snore.
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United States7166 Posts
phoenixes deal with mutas even better than sentries, they just obliterate them, and are an insanely good opening unit even if they arent going spire. check louder's or insane's or response's games and youll see just how effective they are. also theyre even better than corruptors if used correctly, neither does extra dmg to each other but phoenixes are like SUPER fast and with just a little micro it's pretty much impossible to lose phoenixes as they just completely outrun corruptors. you dont even need the guardian shield but it woudl obviously help a ton if somehow youve fallen behind, it's better to still have shield + phoenixes rather than mass sentries.
and yeah after over 250+ games with ONLY zerg, I can agree with the title of the OP (will read post later) that zerg does feel a bit stale and needs possibly 1 major change or a number of smaller changes to really turn things around for them
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is awesome32274 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way?
I'm not going to answer to your intent of an insult.
What i mean is: there's no reason why mutas should behave the same way they worked in SC1. Of course generals concepts of strategy can relate between games, but MECHANICS (key word you must have missed from my post) are different between games and that makes games FUN. You have discover new mechanics and that was the point of my first post. Did people know about the muta mechanics when SC got out? Hardly. The OL trick was discovered little ago. But people still used mutalisks for years before they actually got to work the way they do today.
The same thing can happen with SC2, but it needs time and working out mechanics and glitches is a job for the players, not blizzard.
That's the gamers way, "internetwarrior".
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My only real complaint is roaches. Roaches don't even work with they're name... lots of armor and HP? ranged attack? huh? Roach? Not to mention that's not even a zerg-like name?!
and a slow beefy unit COMPLETELY kills the Zerg feel. How about making roaches have 1/4 HP, 1/2 cost, 1/2 damage, and spawn 2 at at time? or something. Anything but how it is. lol.... Something Zerg-like not WC3-like plz.
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On March 03 2010 05:35 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way? I'm not going to answer to your intent of an insult. What i mean is: there's no reason why mutas should behave the same way they worked in SC1. Of course generals concepts of strategy can relate between games, but MECHANICS (key word you must have missed from my post) are different between games and that makes games FUN. You have discover new mechanics and that was the point of my first post. Did people know about the muta mechanics when SC got out? Hardly. The OL trick was discovered little ago. But people still used mutalisks for years before they actually got to work the way they do today. The same thing can happen with SC2, but it needs time and working out mechanics and glitches is a job for the players, not blizzard. That's the gamers way, "internetwarrior".
Oh my... somebody got owned pretty hard
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Although I just said the infestor was a defiler (as it is the Zergs ONLY spellcaster while the other races each have at least 2), it is really just a nerfed dark archon with some shitty summon spell( SPAWN INFESTED TERRANS IS THE STUPIDEST FUCKING SPELL IN THE GAME) instead of feedback and nerfed mind control and nerfed maelstorm (units still attack when affected).
Stopped reading here, first of all defiler is nothing like infestor. 2ndly a nerfed maelstrom? Fuck no, this spell is infinitely better than maelstrom.
Yes it holds unit in place. That is the only similarity between them.
The units can still attack, but who gives a fuck if they are melee they can't do much- if they are ranged they are gonna die in a matter of seconds anyways. (bling rape particularly).
On top of this, it does 36 damage over 8 seconds. So basically what this is like is a castable baneling shot with a wide explosion but slower dps.
VERY GOOD SPELL. granted the other spells pretty much suck in my experience, but they have their situational uses imo.
If I could, I would change fungal spore to do the damage over 4 or 5 seconds, 8 is a bit long (same as the new psi storm which does 80 or 85).
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On March 02 2010 12:24 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 12:23 StorrZerg wrote:
I find it super funny that you said mutas are crap, when its near impossible to deal with them effectively as toss. what? sentries owns mutas lol
Watch louder vs artosis, the trick is to not let zerg get to muta, or even a 2nd base lmao
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Lol zerglings are still fun. I just won a FFA where i killed every1 with nothing but zerglings fully upgrades with +3+3+mspeed+aspeed. Watching some1 with battlecruisers lose to mass zerglings is entertaining as hell. The first time tho ill admit i did build corrupters when he took the BC's to kill my base, i mean i ahd like 1000000 gas i wasnt using anyways. But about 130 supply of fully upgraded cracklings = funny as hell. In ffa people generally just get pissed and leave as soon as 100 supply of zerglings breaks there ramp, not even sticking around to watch them speed around frantically in their base lol.
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Just from a watching perspective I miss the Muta stackin micro. Still overall pretty entertaining thread.
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On March 02 2010 12:16 Ideas wrote:
The beta has been out for two weeks now, and after watching tons of livestream the 1st week and being able to play several games on my friend’s account
How many games have you played exactly?
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On March 03 2010 07:17 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 05:35 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way? I'm not going to answer to your intent of an insult. What i mean is: there's no reason why mutas should behave the same way they worked in SC1. Of course generals concepts of strategy can relate between games, but MECHANICS (key word you must have missed from my post) are different between games and that makes games FUN. You have discover new mechanics and that was the point of my first post. Did people know about the muta mechanics when SC got out? Hardly. The OL trick was discovered little ago. But people still used mutalisks for years before they actually got to work the way they do today. The same thing can happen with SC2, but it needs time and working out mechanics and glitches is a job for the players, not blizzard. That's the gamers way, "internetwarrior". Oh my... somebody got owned pretty hard
this to the Nth degree
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On March 03 2010 05:35 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way? I'm not going to answer to your intent of an insult. What i mean is: there's no reason why mutas should behave the same way they worked in SC1. Of course generals concepts of strategy can relate between games, but MECHANICS (key word you must have missed from my post) are different between games and that makes games FUN. You have discover new mechanics and that was the point of my first post. Did people know about the muta mechanics when SC got out? Hardly. The OL trick was discovered little ago. But people still used mutalisks for years before they actually got to work the way they do today. The same thing can happen with SC2, but it needs time and working out mechanics and glitches is a job for the players, not blizzard. That's the gamers way, "internetwarrior".
Bravo, sir.
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I agree with the OP about how zerg is very uninteresting, protoss have ALL the neat stuff, blink, forcefield, warpin, guardian shield, cliff walkers, immortal shields, storm, phoenix launch in the air ability, chrono boost opens several different strategies and timings while queens offer extra larva and early harass defense, I'm not counting the 125 heal for 50 energy fucking useless. Creep tumor is basically a 1 time spell cast, it really should fit with the overseer. Zerg get very little interesting abilities.
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On March 03 2010 05:35 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 04:10 internetwarrior wrote:On March 03 2010 04:00 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 03 2010 01:10 internetwarrior wrote:
For 9001 common sense points: guess how much more insight into game mechanics the design team has since SC1 was released!
As if Blizzard had to re-learn everything from scratch... How about this: games are different and a mechanic from one doesnt have to apply to the other. lol. So you learn nothing and start from scratch everytime? Silly me thinking you'd build on what you've learned from previous games especially of the same genre (RTS). I guess that's the Argentinian way? I'm not going to answer to your intent of an insult. What i mean is: there's no reason why mutas should behave the same way they worked in SC1. Of course generals concepts of strategy can relate between games, but MECHANICS (key word you must have missed from my post) are different between games and that makes games FUN. You have discover new mechanics and that was the point of my first post. Did people know about the muta mechanics when SC got out? Hardly. The OL trick was discovered little ago. But people still used mutalisks for years before they actually got to work the way they do today. The same thing can happen with SC2, but it needs time and working out mechanics and glitches is a job for the players, not blizzard. That's the gamers way, "internetwarrior".
Lol
WTG Argentina. Anyways don't feed the troll. And regarding your post, I completely agree, and I just hope we can find the kind of stuff that will make this game more fun. But I'm just skeptic about finding as much as good stuff as we did in SC1. But I may be talking nonsense, it's just a speculation based on 2-weeks-gaming.
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I feel the same way, played Zerg the first time today and was like... That was boring. I am a Protoss player, and they are definitely alot more innovative it seems. Then again I've barely played that many games... The b-lings and underground movable roaches are pretty cool though.
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On March 03 2010 05:37 Motiva wrote:My only real complaint is roaches. Roaches don't even work with they're name... lots of armor and HP? ranged attack? huh? Roach? Not to mention that's not even a zerg-like name?! and a slow beefy unit COMPLETELY kills the Zerg feel. How about making roaches have 1/4 HP, 1/2 cost, 1/2 damage, and spawn 2 at at time? or something. Anything but how it is. lol.... Something Zerg-like not WC3-like plz.
How about the Roach-u-lisk :D
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They must scrap Roaches, bring back hydra to tier 1, and move Baneling to tier 2 and beef them a bit. Also, I believe that another tier 2 unit needs to be available except Banelings, and that would be an evolve from hydra, but perhaps something different than Lurker. Perhaps something that can jump cliffs and attack melee on air and ground.
I say it again: The war3dev guy that was responsible for Zerg must be fired, the blandness of Zerg compared to the arsenal of new interesting fun Protoss stuff is just laughable.
It's almost as HuskytheHusky was in charge of Starcraft, knowing his love for Protoss he would give them all the good stuff!
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On March 03 2010 05:37 Motiva wrote:My only real complaint is roaches. Roaches don't even work with they're name... lots of armor and HP? ranged attack? huh? Roach? Not to mention that's not even a zerg-like name?! and a slow beefy unit COMPLETELY kills the Zerg feel. How about making roaches have 1/4 HP, 1/2 cost, 1/2 damage, and spawn 2 at at time? or something. Anything but how it is. lol.... Something Zerg-like not WC3-like plz.
Actually it would be completely awesome if they nerfed roaches and gave them a speed upgrade. Maybe that sounds totally retarded, but imo it would feel more "zerg"
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I've seen far too many games won with just a big horde of Roaches and Hydras.
I love SC2. I love Blizzard. But a whole big horde of those units running around together looks like a big pile of horse shit.
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While I disagree a lot with OP on some points:
Zerg is boring and a bunch of their units work much too well with A-move.
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Imo zerg isn't exactly boring. I'm having a lot of fun and haven't even used infestors or ultralisks more than once yet. Broodlords 3 times, twice when the game was over anyways.
Simple a-moving is suicide because banes against marauders are useless, HSM and collossi kill masses of units with ease.
I do agree that zerg could use some interesting spells though. Spawn Infested Terrans definitely is the most retarded spell ever.
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On March 12 2010 00:49 Gigaudas wrote:
While I disagree a lot with OP on some points:
Zerg is boring and a bunch of their units work much too well with A-move.
True, but what about the King of all overpowered and totally boring A-Move-Units, namely the Collossus and it's little Brother the Immortal? ^^'
Just slow, totally micro-unintensive CounterUnits that are a joke compared to Units from SC1 like the Reaver...
There are just so many totally boring and slow Units. Another example would be the Thor.
I really think Blizzard should change or get rid of those Units - the only ppl that like them are the ones that are afraid of loosing without them when they would actually have to micro anyways. ^^'
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Axe the hydra. Then zerg would really get interesting.
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^hilarious
Anyways, aside from all the lol's in your post, I think your basic premise was pretty solid. The zerg gameplay right now is rather uninteresting. I've been watching a lot of Oversky's games ( almost all of them ) and while he is a great Zerg player, I don't think the race itself is entertaining at all. The basic (common) structure of zerg composition is: make roaches to defend your base while you expand, or make zerglings to try and harass, then move to hydras for mid game defense/offense ( or mutas but I've seen most zerg players prefer hydras), stick a infestor or two in the mix for lols, then get ultralisks for a late game push. I extremely dislike how linear zerg composition is right now and I agree that they need additional units to spice up their gameplay ( either another spellcaster or fix the current ones ). Its starting to get to the point where I find it difficult to watch a zerg game because the same thing always happens and it just feels like there's no micromanagement going on at all. From the looks of things, it seems like all battles just consist of a+click. I really hope that Blizzard addresses these issues before the release of the game in 2 or 3 months because, to me(and I hope I'm not the only one), Zerg is just not fun to play or watch atm. Blizzard has to see that even though the game is balanced, it doesn't mean that the game is flawless. Fingers crossed for more polished Zergs.
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One main aspect about Zerg bothers me a lot. Why do units have to spawn other units (Broodlord, Infester). Doesnt look good spectator wise, feels like Warcraft and is bad for micro stuff.
Lurkers or something similar will be in the Starcraft 2 Expansion Pack... hopefully.
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Sweet graphics-check
Awesome units-check
Plays like the original SC- check
Protoss are still BA- check
Terran are even more BA-check
Zerg look and sound like dinosaurs mixed with insects-NOT check
Basically I love the gameplay, the graphics are gonna force me to buy a new computer, and Terran and Protoss are sweet, they have cool units that are fun to play with.
SO I LIKE THE GAME...but the Zerg makeover is a turn for the worse. Basically sound more like bugs than dinosaurs. A good example of what Zerg should sound like are the Zerg from SC1.
Mutas sounded like dragons, and when they attack they scream and give you the feeling that you are being swarmed. Now they sound like bats. As for the unit model it looks cool except for the end where the glave wurm comes out, that part is a little too bulky and is reminiscent of the old SC2 siege tank design. Slim it down to look more like the Muta in the "hell its about time" video that flies in HOT.
Hydralisks look super cool but they lost their attack. Before they looked like they were forcing the stuff out at High velocity, and now they shoot giant spikes that arc? Spikes soo slow that they follow a noticeably parabolic path? Solution....Make their attack look like the old one, but make it 3D....done.
Zerglings look cool except now metabolic increase means giant wings to make them look like ant drones. Not cool, loose the wings, metabolic speed increase, is supposed to be something like vam(wasp speed(speed the drug)). Or the same as someone drinking a Monster Energy. So again loose the wings.
Now those things FAIL in comparison to how bad the new zerg voice is.
YOU REQUIRE MORE MEINERAAALLLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!
THAT voice. Its super lame and doesnt even sound like zerg at all. Just sounds like some woman in a studio failing epically. The new zerg voice has got to go, cummon it doesnt even have any base(I mean sound base).
So basically I think we should take a long look at the zerg, cause in their current state they just aren't fun to play, and I really liked Zerg.
What do you guys think? (I you are going to say "its still in BETA" dont bother. heres why...the whole point of BETA is to get FEEDBACK so that they can make changes to a game BEFORE it ships. So this is my feedback, if you dont agree and you like the lame zerg thats fine, I guess Blizz made the game for you)
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I do like the idea of giving the zerg a cliff hopping unit, just to make things more interesting. IMO they need another unit. But I think the reign of the roach is on its way out, just a little. In ZvZ for sure. The matchup was once all roaches, now lings are looking alot stronger and that opens the door to mutas and other crap. In ZvT... muta / ling / baneling is strong. In ZvP... I don't know the matchup well, I know roach / hydra works, but I also know mass lings are better to stop the immortal push. I've heard a ton of mutas are good there too. But yeah, they need another unit to get that feeling of diversity. If your zerg play is really boring maybe you should try dropping more / nydus worming more.
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EPT
