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On December 29 2009 17:11 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2009 12:30 Archerofaiur wrote:
Plus im having trouble seeing how this could stack up against extra larva and minerals.
wtf, how do the economic mechanisms need to be equal. Theres tonnes of other factors too that determine racial balance.
No your absolutly right. It is a combination of many factors. However the benefit of macroing for each race should at least be on the same level (though not exactly equal) I think it would be widely accepted that macroing as zerg or terran would be much more useful in most situations. Which is why I think this ability has potential for a secondary macro ability (like call-down supplys) but probably not as a primary macro ability.
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I don't think the ability is any weaker than spawn larva, which is simply a cheaper hatchery that you have to click on. In any case, the ability to squeeze a DT rush or reaver drop a good 30 seconds earlier is nothing trivial. This is an ability that is more important at higher levels of play and that is fine.
And finally, frankly there is no need for "equality" between macro mechanics or we could just give the same thing to everyone. There was no equality when Zerg had workers that come in waves that makes it easier to manage in the days without automine, and production that require less clicks without wasting productivity and thats all okay.
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We have to realize that for Protoss to get the unit first and have the build time second (as well as a slight production speed bonus) as well as getting that unit anywhere is a huge advantage that fundamentally changes the toss race. Of course they still have the longest build times but that is now slightly compensated for by not having to really wait for the unit.
I like the unpredictability of the suggestion and the ability to "customize" your build order more. It will really encourage scouting which is a good thing.
Two key things are missing from this mechanic that should at least be addressed and they kind of tie into each other a bit.
It is my strong opinion that any macro mechanic theyvdo include should be disruptable beyond having to sit around and kill a building. This may involve killing the queen (hopefully not too easy to replace) or a MULE. It also may involve killing a unit as it warps in.
This ability needs to be disruptable and I shouldn't have to sit around and kill your nexus or the gateway it is powering. It should be a raid not an assault.
The second thing it should have is a downside ranging from a cooldown to a resource cost. Basically limited by creativity. Unless we want this mechanc to be always in use (te downside would then be using it HERE as opposed to THERE), in which case the entire race must be rebalanced, there should be a downside to using it.
There is also an option to make this a rare but strategic ability. For 100-200 (example) minerals you can speed up production by 50%. Instead of using it always, you could include it as a bonus, which is what I think the MMs should be. We already have the "boring chore" of building probes and we have warp in which we do all the time, so let's have a mechanic that increases macro and strategic depth but only under the right circumstances which at up to the player to determine. Sacrificing minerals for a faster BO every once in a while is a good choice IMO.
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This ability needs to be disruptable and I shouldn't have to sit around and kill your nexus or the gateway it is powering. It should be a raid not an assault.
Indeed, after reading this thread, the idea seems awesome, but I think it should be on the obelisk, fixing the range issue, letting you a little more leway with proxy tech / base layout.
And also making it raidable as justice said, the obelisks are pretty weak if focused.
It was said earlier that it would seem too random to see what was being buffed, well I imagine that's why there's a beam from the nexus(or obelisk) to the affected building.
If it's on an upgrade building you know an upgrade is coming soon and can prepare, if it's on production, you know to expect more. It's similar to seeing a reactor on a terran building.
The obelisk's cost means you can't spam them too much to get too many buffs, which I think is a nice balancing factor.
Honestly I like how with high apm you could switch the beams target really fast getting a pretty good boost to base management, or with low apm just leave it on your nex/gateway/forge etc.
Easy to use hard to master. With the all important visual feedback for spectators, i LOVE this suggestion.
Trouble is protoss already have another awesome macro ability in warp-in, i wonder how the other races would fare trying to get abilities just as good and unique. Archer's remote M.U.L.E. is a pretty sweet idea for terran, I hope zerg get more in depth macro abilities, something as important as the larvae choke in BW imo....
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I think the OP has a pretty good idea there. However, I think it can be improved into this:
Instead of targeting a building, this ability creates a time bubble (much like the time bomb ability) but instead of slowing down time for everything inside, it speeds it up instead. You could use this for a whole variety of things: speeding up a building in production, an upgrade, regenerating shields, helping defending units fire faster, and of course speeding up mining. I think this is so awesome that I have no idea why nobody thought of this before (or maybe they have and I just have not seen it.) In any case, I think it fits in perfectly with Protoss lore as well and can be a very interesting game mechanic.
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This is a pretty interesting concept... Well thought!
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Sweden33723 Posts
I like this idea a lot, and I think a broader definition of "macro gameplay" needs to be applied when considering macro mechanics.
It's not "Boxer individual unit micro" vs "iloveoov unit production macro" - SC 1 has already moved past that. Macro can be applied to many other areas: troop movement, expansion/base management etc.
Effeciently utilizing this spell would definitely fall into the base management category.
I also have a huge penchant for timing variations in build orders (though I was never one to get too into the nitty gritty of peon cutting, I have a deep respect for those who do), so this idea appeals even more to me. It's simpler, too, than the different mining modes I used to argue for back in the day (see maybenexttime's thread(s) about it if you dunno what I'm referring to).
And I mean simpler in a good way.
As for what building to put it on, or other details (I.E should it cost more money to boost production speed? etc), there's obviously a lot of room for discussion. If you don't want it to be static, you could even place it on the warp prism, or allow the obelisk to "lift off".
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 02 2010 01:09 AeTheReal wrote:
I think the OP has a pretty good idea there. However, I think it can be improved into this:
Instead of targeting a building, this ability creates a time bubble (much like the time bomb ability) but instead of slowing down time for everything inside, it speeds it up instead. You could use this for a whole variety of things: speeding up a building in production, an upgrade, regenerating shields, helping defending units fire faster, and of course speeding up mining. I think this is so awesome that I have no idea why nobody thought of this before (or maybe they have and I just have not seen it.) In any case, I think it fits in perfectly with Protoss lore as well and can be a very interesting game mechanic.
Wow, sounds amazing :D Although it'd have to be small enough not to affect too much at once (like disruptor forcefield sized)
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Theres some things that make it better for nexus to have it instead of obelisk.
It makes for more varied building placement, since you want to have at least 1 production building at each base to get the advanatge from nexuses.
And it isnt efficient to spam nexuses to get more production boosts - with obelisk it cant be too strong effect or you might want an obelisk for every gateway which doesnt appeal to me. Though I suppose that queen is bit like that atm...
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Time bubble ftw. Very nice ideas.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 03 2010 23:42 JohannesH wrote:
Theres some things that make it better for nexus to have it instead of obelisk.
It makes for more varied building placement, since you want to have at least 1 production building at each base to get the advanatge from nexuses.
And it isnt efficient to spam nexuses to get more production boosts - with obelisk it cant be too strong effect or you might want an obelisk for every gateway which doesnt appeal to me. Though I suppose that queen is bit like that atm...
You're forgetting that the obelisk is only half the price (at the moment) of a new nexus, they're hardly spammable.
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edit: Bleh. Wrong thread.
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Wait hang on. Did Blizz literally just jack this thread's idea and put it into SCII or what?
Did i miss something?
Edit: If so, thats awesome.
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On February 12 2010 13:30 m3rciless wrote:
Wait hang on. Did Blizz literally just jack this thread's idea and put it into SCII or what?
Did i miss something?
Edit: If so, thats awesome.
People were talking about this idea back in 2008.
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EPT
