So i was watching the terran campaign release. Video here!
At 2:25 you'll see that lava rises on part of the map and prevents mining.
I guess that adds a whole new strategic aspect on which expansions to take. i also see a problem for terran/toss who have a lots of probes/scvs. that would reduce mining time like crazy. I'm also assuming if you don't move them out in time they all blow up, if you took multiple expos like this you'd need to stop everything just to move peons.
Poll: Would u like to see lava maps in proleague/SCII? (Vote): Fuck yeah!!! (Vote): Yes, this would add some more depth to the game (Vote): No, this sucks i cant move all my SCV/Probes out of all the expos. (Vote): I dont care... SCII is still so far away
I don't think rising lava will make for a very good game element, as losing a lot of units to something else than your opponent's units is pretty lame. Falling lava that unlocks different part of the map after a set amount of time sounds like a very nice idea though, and is probably how they plan to make "newbie friendly" maps work.
sounds good you could have regualr crystals in non lava places and yellow crystalls in the lava zones + it can protect you base from non flying invaders
Even if the basic "lava kills your units" idea doesn't make for good gameplay, there's a very high chance that someone will think of something creative to do with it. The more, the merrier.
There was the same concept in a UMS map with vanilla SC : scenario\old faithfull except without lava animation. Basically just a trigger that killed all units on low ground.
Are we getting new topics for every new thing that the sc2 engine can offer us?
It has no use speculating on all those new cool things, because we don't know what will be normal in the maps that are available at launch. And after we played 1 year battle.net.
The 1st year of sc2 will just be knowing the game, this mechanic delays the game. Do we need that? Nobody knows, so speculating about that in topics like these, is useless until the game is actually released....
-oh and, isn't luck something like this? I think this is unfair for some situations we still have to figure out. So this is a bad mechanic. Luck mechanic = bad!
ok now, i'm going to stay out of useless topics the sc2 forum has.
I feel like this would be too gimmicky and it would slow games down too much. But who knows, maybe it would serve some purpose that will become clearer once the game comes out.
i could see it being used to restrict areas or block paths like the destructible buildings are now. island expos surrounded by lava but if you destroy some rocks it flows away and you can then access by ground.
i feel like this would be more of a hassle than an interesting update in the game. plus starcraft is a human vs. human game. something like this could majorly change the outcome of the game and it wouldn;t even be determined by your opponent. starcraft never had the same relationship between human and AI that War3 had. I don't think they'll want to start changing it now.
If there's a warning 10-15 seconds before, just like in single player, I'd like to see how it plays on a multiplayer map simply out of curiosity.
But I realize this feature would probably bring a ton a balance issues (mobility issue with siege tanks for example, vs a zerg army that would be out of trouble so quickly, huge late game armies that would be a hassle to move out of the way everytime). We can expect lava to be horrible on a competitive level, at the same time, for the spectator, this would be a great show to watch.
Blizzard talked about having "anti-rush" map pool for nuublets. I assume they will have a lava type mechanic in some that drains out after 7-10 minutes so ground troops can get through, then some sort of anti-air rushing block.
didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive. Not to mention zerg would have no way of dealing with these imba drops cause they don't have any practical way of dealing with the floating army
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
why would terrans use such a "show off unit" in a match they don't use tanks cause well they are pointless.
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
why would terrans use such a "show off unit" in a match they don't use tanks cause well they are pointless.
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
why would terrans use such a "show off unit" in a match they don't use tanks cause well they are pointless.
Well you totally got me there.
yep horrible grammar ftw.
No but in all seriousness. Terrans are VERY mobile in sc2, not to mention from the reports it seems they mostly go bio + medvac vs any race.
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
why would terrans use such a "show off unit" in a match they don't use tanks cause well they are pointless.
Well you totally got me there.
yep horrible grammar ftw.
No but in all seriousness. Terrans are VERY mobile in sc2, not to mention from the reports it seems they mostly go bio + medvac vs any race. Zerg don't have that kind of mobility
Toss is very mobile with the floating pylons.
What if creep is like oil is to water and floats on lava when it rises... hrmmmm??
On August 19 2009 01:48 StorrZerg wrote: didn't you hear?? terrans don't have tanks. they have these flying ships that heal their bio army. i mean they are 400% more mobile than zerg now, zerg would be the ones trapped frying alive
Thors and siege tanks in the middle on a lava pit would still be much worse for terran than anything zerg could put in there.
why would terrans use such a "show off unit" in a match they don't use tanks cause well they are pointless.
Well you totally got me there.
yep horrible grammar ftw.
No but in all seriousness. Terrans are VERY mobile in sc2, not to mention from the reports it seems they mostly go bio + medvac vs any race. Zerg don't have that kind of mobility
Toss is very mobile with the floating pylons.
What if creep is like oil is to water and floats on lava when it rises... hrmmmm??
holy crap zerg just became viable on lava maps fuck yeah
Dont think its so great with the mining thing. But i think it has immense possibilities in many other aspects of the game. It would be awesome to have island maps like this where it shifts from being island to standard map every 2 min or something. This feature has alot of possibilities, not to mension custom maps.
Affecting mining and pathing should be implemented separately, at least at first. Having your bases get halved every few minutes or having easy to access but harder to mine bases is a unique mechanic. Having paths open and close dynamically is a different mechanic. Both seem awesome.
I can imagine a mission where you have to destroy a Dominion hydroelectric dam in order to shutdown a large factory of some sort. Then you could see the awesome effect of the low land getting flooded with water.
On August 19 2009 03:02 n00bonicPlague wrote: I can imagine a mission where you have to destroy a Dominion hydroelectric dam in order to shutdown a large factory of some sort. Then you could see the awesome effect of the low land getting flooded with water.
awesome :D
everything being swept away but colossus and thors and ultras....
I love gimmicks that provide more depth. But I think it should be kept in small doses in MP cuz I don't like the thought of GG cuz of the map settings.
On August 19 2009 03:02 n00bonicPlague wrote: I can imagine a mission where you have to destroy a Dominion hydroelectric dam in order to shutdown a large factory of some sort. Then you could see the awesome effect of the low land getting flooded with water.
awesome :D
everything being swept away but colossus and thors and ultras....
lol, there is a water castle level. Just like WC3.
The lava or tides are probably disabled in melee maps. I think the static changes/randomness of the map could fuck people up. I could be wrong, depend how Blizzard wants this.
On August 19 2009 03:02 n00bonicPlague wrote: I can imagine a mission where you have to destroy a Dominion hydroelectric dam in order to shutdown a large factory of some sort. Then you could see the awesome effect of the low land getting flooded with water.
awesome :D
everything being swept away but colossus and thors and ultras....
Can't watch the video from work, but here are my thoughts:
As long as it's predictable (the lava rises at predetermined time intervals, for instance), it can be acceptable in a competitive environment. I don't think it's a necessary avenue in improving depth as it will complicate balancing, and the last thing the designers need is another factor to consider when balancing.
It definitely should be a map making option, though, if at least to help UMS. If balance or playability issues arise in competition, bad maps will be phased out and demonized as they have always been.
Why is only option against this idea named "No, this sucks i cant move all my SCV/Probes out of all the expos." ? IIRC there are no UMS maps in SC1 proleague even though it IS doable in sc1, so why would this be part of SC2 proleague? Thats actually good question to the OP, what does make you think that in SC2's proleague UMS maps will be popular unlike in SC1's proleague? Cause SC1 does have trigger that destroys everything on designated area.
On August 19 2009 04:37 Kaniol wrote: Why is only option against this idea named "No, this sucks i cant move all my SCV/Probes out of all the expos." ? IIRC there are no UMS maps in SC1 proleague even though it IS doable in sc1, so why would this be part of SC2 proleague? Thats actually good question to the OP, what does make you think that in SC2's proleague UMS maps will be popular unlike in SC1's proleague? Cause SC1 does have trigger that destroys everything on designated area.
It doesn't have to just block mining, it could be used to block check points periodically or small parts of the map, it could even be controlled by a switch that could be fought over.
On August 19 2009 04:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: It doesn't have to just block mining, it could be used to block check points periodically or small parts of the map, it could even be controlled by a switch that could be fought over.
Which would bring a whole new meaning for timing attack... focusing not only on opponent's tech and army size, etc., but on chokepoint openings.
On August 19 2009 01:10 Mutaahh wrote: Are we getting new topics for every new thing that the sc2 engine can offer us?
It has no use speculating on all those new cool things, because we don't know what will be normal in the maps that are available at launch. And after we played 1 year battle.net.
The 1st year of sc2 will just be knowing the game, this mechanic delays the game. Do we need that? Nobody knows, so speculating about that in topics like these, is useless until the game is actually released....
-oh and, isn't luck something like this? I think this is unfair for some situations we still have to figure out. So this is a bad mechanic. Luck mechanic = bad!
ok now, i'm going to stay out of useless topics the sc2 forum has.
actually if the game is being delayed anyway then we got nothing better to do than to debate it. well, unless we wanna not join in on the forums.
On August 19 2009 03:07 aseq wrote: I think it can make for interesting strategies, and if shown to be unbalanced/ annoying map makers will leave it out in time.
What kind of lava rises and falls every couple minutes?
dude, it's an ash world...it's like our world is a water world. the gravity of the satellite and star is pulling the lava into the shore and back again...it's just a tide. and the couple of minutes or whatever is just how it appears to the player. it doesn't really take only a few esconds for an scv to finish carving away some minerals and bring them back to the command center...you gotta realize that the time is scaled.
I wouldn't mind map makers experimenting with some of the crazier things SC2 has to offer. If it works it works if not take it out after a month or two like battle royal.
On August 19 2009 04:37 Kaniol wrote: Why is only option against this idea named "No, this sucks i cant move all my SCV/Probes out of all the expos." ? IIRC there are no UMS maps in SC1 proleague even though it IS doable in sc1, so why would this be part of SC2 proleague? Thats actually good question to the OP, what does make you think that in SC2's proleague UMS maps will be popular unlike in SC1's proleague? Cause SC1 does have trigger that destroys everything on designated area.
There is no such thing as an UMS map in WC3, triggers work in "melee" maps.
I dont think this would be good for competition. First of all, would the lava's rising be every "x" seconds or would it be random? Random for all low ground or only certain expos? If its random for different expos then thats an auto-no because it adds a variable of luck to the game. If its random for ALL expos or something like that, i'd still say no, because sometimes players need expos are more important for you than your opponent, for example take any fast expansion build and i think youll get my idea. If its timed and for ALL expos, THEN you might have something interesting, because you would know when the lava will be rising and you can strategize accordingly. Basically, im advocating this idea only if players know at the beginning of the game when the lava will be rising. basically. All in all, i still voted no. Features that are sometimes 'cool' and 'interesting' dont always fit well in a competitive scene. just one opinion though.
meh...i'm extremely skeptic about the usefulness of changing lava levels near expos in Proleagues. I mean, I doubt there would be a single pro player who would fall for something like that... They are way too attentive in everything they do, it would barely be a challenge for them to keep an eye on changing lava levels. There could be rare cases when they are in extremely stressful situations where they might forget to pull out their peons because they are too busy microing offensive units, but on the whole it would barely add any thrill. Especially on the pro level.
A map with a central expansion with yellow crystals on a higher level(platform) with lava surrounding it that comes up for 40 seconds every 4 minutes -- with a countdown warning you 15 sec. before the rising - could be a cool mechanic? That way it might give an advantage for someone who times his expansion there and takes advantage of its natural defending capabilities. Imagine a protoss using Nullifiers to stall for time to wait for the next lava blast. If the lava is too intrusive there are always the following 'dials': immunity for Colossi, flying units and/or Thors, changing the timers, adjusting the map layout, so I think some experimenting with this has potential for - at the very least - a map in the ladder mappool somewhere down the line.
On another related point, I fear maps in SC2 could end up too restrictive if all they do is emulate classic Starcraft maps. Different mechanics aren't new to Starcraft at any rate: there have been innovations in Starcraft maps throughout the years and some are already confirmed by Blizzard such as the watchtowers, high-yield expansions and destructible rocks, but those seem to be generic additions to every single map so far and might well go the way of, say, shops and taverns in WC3. What I hope for is that as far as would be allowed by balance, Blizzard would take advantage of the community's creativity and the strength of their map editor and allow for unique maps. An example is adding lava, but of the top of my head there are some others such as neutral units or a solar eclipse which reduces sight range once every so often, which are probably bad ideas, but there is a suitable method to introduce any of these in a balanced fashion, which is simply: allow the community to create these maps and test them. First by map testers, then in the mappool and finally in lower proleague games, so that by that time if it is imbalanced or doesn't add something to the game it'll be removed by then.
Some of the goals of this are to have some variety and different mechanics so that people don't get bored doing another TvZ macro game in some generic map. Another more ambitious goal is to not divide the map making community and the community in general into those simply playing the next incarnation of footman wars and castle defense and others who delve into ladder games and through this adding incentive for the regular starcraft player to familiarize themselves with the actual game, even if it's in a not so highly competitive version. (I hope this makes sense: think like if you combine mechanics of some UMS-maps with ladder maps so that people formerly only interested in the first learn to appreciate the 'real' game -- which can only be good for e-sport popularity)
I see many possible uses of lava on competitive maps, mainly :
1- Lava in mineral lines like in the single player mission, having to move out peons every X minutes. 2- Lava to separate bases, turning an island map into a regular map after X time, or the opposite. 3- Lava on specific paths, forcing players to use longer paths either permanently or temporarily. 4- Isolating far expansions late game, or removing the isolation of island expos after a while, thus punishing any turtle.
The first option I think wouldn't be good, simply because it would very quickly get tedious and frustrating. I think all the other possibilities have a lot of potential and they could certainly add depth to the game, at least more than neutral buildings such as the Xel'Naga tower imo. Also, the mechanics of lava could easily be implemented on any tileset, such as water on jungle for example (only blocking robotic units?).
One problem I see with lava is how a timer could greatly benefit any player, letting him know exactly when the lava will come down or will come up before any alarm. I guess an in-game timer could be a great feature in SC2 no matter what anyway.
On August 19 2009 00:41 prOxi.Beater wrote: I don't think rising lava will make for a very good game element, as losing a lot of units to something else than your opponent's units is pretty lame. Falling lava that unlocks different part of the map after a set amount of time sounds like a very nice idea though, and is probably how they plan to make "newbie friendly" maps work.
I read through most of this thread, and I think this is the best idea I've seen yet.
I like it. Having it on expos might not be the best idea, but opening and closing paths, making a map semi-islands is a good thing. If you can set a timer and have a warning like in the video, there is no reason to why it should be excluded from ordinary maps. Mappers have been trying to use more and more features for a long time, being forced to crack the editor to make new things. Things like these are excellent for creating new and innovative maps, and should be encouraged to be able to be included in regular melee-maps.
Mappers please read this. Limit special map quirks like this to at most two per map. (by quirks I mean buildings/rubble blocking paths, the new high grass thing, lava, pretty much anything that isn't part of the core terrain of a map) Because if you don't start limiting it then its going to get messy and complicated and end up being more irritating to the players, commentators and audience. Well maybe not audience, though I'm sure they will suffer as well when players purposely ignore certain parts of a map because they're annoying.
Very good single player feature. For competitive play, it depends.
Lava on expos and random lava would be extremely annoying.
But on certain maps, it could be an interesting map feature if the high/low 'tides' changed at regular intervals. With the big voiceover and a countdown it could hardly be considered random- one could then practice for the 'tides' (when to make timing attacks and expansion etc.)
Attacks would have to be speedy and an opponent could try to pin your army down just long enough so you can't escape the lava as the timer countsdown- on paper it could be exciting. It might be too annoying and therefore reject, but it would be worth the attempt. It might force more drop plays or air attacks.
If it doesn't work, the feature would be mothballed except for casual play. No big deal.
Another thing to consider is how lockdown and the new protoss wall spell (I forgot the name) could work very well with lava in multiplayer games, as well as other slowing abilities I might have forgotten.
Imagine a game in which a protoss would use it's casters to trap a whole terran army on lava grounds, pure entertainment.
This mechanic was not designed for multiplayer, it was thought up for 1 campaign map. Blizz gave said that some of the mechanics they made for missions are a big enough game changer to have their own game mode, but they are in 1 map only. What Make me happy is that they have designed an editor which is capable of so much, but that they appear to be only utilizing the most basic of mechanics (rocks, towers, los shrubs) in the multiplayer maps and letting the map makers decide how far to take the use of advanced editor capabilities in leagues.
Lava is one example of a mechanic which COULD be used well if done right, but is not forced down our throats. We have seen some interesting maps in SC1 in the past utilizing neutral buildings and disruption webs etc, and I bet at first no one exoected them to be any good.
People who are really paranoid of dynamic map like this hurting competitive play should really reconsider. After all, it's not like it's happening to EVERY multiplayer map, and it will make the game more exciting and strategic. No offense to you guys, of course. I just think it SHOULD be added to competitive play.
1- Lava in mineral lines like in the single player mission, having to move out peons every X minutes. 2- Lava to separate bases, turning an island map into a regular map after X time, or the opposite. 3- Lava on specific paths, forcing players to use longer paths either permanently or temporarily. 4- Isolating far expansions late game, or removing the isolation of island expos after a while, thus punishing any turtle.
I take back my previous post after completely reading this.. What this guy suggested is amazing...
i'd like to see island maps becoming a full map. however. if you combine this with a buncha tall grass and stuff it might become a disaster like demon's forest
On August 19 2009 00:36 StorrZerg wrote: i think it would be great for on paths to battle. not so much for halting mining ect.
chasing someone into a lava pool seeing them all melt and die lol
you're right, this would be very fun. i can see lava rising and what not be more of a battle element than a mining element.
maybe certain key pathways are usually overflowed with lava, but during certain time periods, open up, allowing a shorter route into an enemy's base.
perhaps the whole center area never has lava, but the sides of the map get overflowed every now and then. in large engagements when for example, terran pushes the protoss to the edges, the protoss need to attack within a certain time period or have to retreat from the central platform area.
i think the main thing here is that this takes away from the most important thing PLAYING THE GAME this isn't micro or macro its tedious and annoying especially if this was in all maps omg that would be so so so so so terrible.
the great thing about this idea is that it doesnt have to touch the mineral lines. those could all be on higher ground, leaving the battlefield vulnerable. or it could touch vital expos. whatever.
if this is done on mineral lines where if you dont move away your peons they die, it'll just be like the stupid gas mechanic but more extreme. Lava draining to reveal new expos later on in the game, lava going away to turn an island expo into a normal expo, blocking off some pathways temporarily are all fine.
I deem this mechanic positive in multi player games, yet we don't have to put all the expos in the threat of lava tide. It is good if several expos, especially that with yellow mineral patches, have conerns of lava issues, but not all of them. Besides, several strategic points on the map can also be connected with this type of mechanic, if so, we can have roads that passable occasionally, X-naga towers you can only held for a period of time, etc.
i think its horrible... if they start to put a lot of random features like this into maps, then the suddenly the concentration from gameplay and your opponent moves to some little annoying and tedious features like this and as hard as I try cant see how this could be fun.
in single player ok in ums ok static lava which can be removed by destroying some rocks/buildings ok. (just the same as destroying a building just the effect becomes bigger or smth...)
Shit like this is already possible with BW, just not in melee maps. And rightly so imo, if you add too many gimmicky things like this the game becomes totally crazy and the balance from maps is just ridiculous. No one would ever join random custom maps online because noobs would just abuse things like this and rig maps to basically make you lose half way into the mid game or something.
In summation, anything to spice up gameplay to prevent stagnation and keep the game fresh is always good, but we don't need it to start off with. Maybe later when the meta game develops a little more it would be nice. For now, just leave it to UMS maps.
PS- there are some blizzard maps like 'black hole' (i think it was called) where every couple of minutes the middle of the map would kill anything.
It's basically just a natural disaster/map obstacle. I don't really want to play against the map, I wanna play against a player. This isn't sim city.
PPS- there should be a poll option for Maybe good idea at some point, don't want it in every map though
On August 19 2009 20:03 CharlieMurphy wrote: Shit like this is already possible with BW, just not in melee maps. And rightly so imo, if you add too many gimmicky things like this the game becomes totally crazy and the balance from maps is just ridiculous. No one would ever join random custom maps online because noobs would just abuse things like this and rig maps to basically make you lose half way into the mid game or something.
In summation, anything to spice up gameplay to prevent stagnation and keep the game fresh is always good, but we don't need it to start off with. Maybe later when the meta game develops a little more it would be nice. For now, just leave it to UMS maps.
PS- there are some blizzard maps like 'black hole' (i think it was called) where every couple of minutes the middle of the map would kill anything.
It's basically just a natural disaster/map obstacle. I don't really want to play against the map, I wanna play against a player. This isn't sim city.
PPS- there should be a poll option for Maybe good idea at some point, don't want it in every map though
I disagree, I don't think lava is much different from destructible temples, and certainly less gimmicky than destructible assimilators on some SC maps, or even stacked temples on Medusa. It's much easier for a new player to understand that "in 15 mins, you'll be able to use that path to reach the enemy's base" than "if one assimilator is destroyed, only bio units are gonna be able to get through this choke". Also, if newbs were to abuse this all the time, I don't see how this could be any worse than backdoor mineral patches in Destination and Heartbreak Ridge.
I see the point that SC evolved into this after 5 years, maps didnt start with fancy mineral patches and destructible buildings here and there, and if they had, we'd probably have three times more of that stuff on maps today.
At the same time, I like the idea of dynamic maps better than neutral Xel'Naga tower (which never seemed to fit right with SC imo), or the yellow crystals, because there's so many new possibilities with dynamic maps.
The main problem I would see with lava is that it's a mechanic controlled by the game instead of being player controlled (like rocks for exemple). Lava would force the players to adapt to the map over time, which is something that never was introduced in any Blizzard RTS, and time could become a too big factor in the game.
Oh yeah, that would be so cool and would make timing even more important like "okay, if i am too late with my units, i can't make them walk over the lava" cool stuff! definetely want it!
On August 19 2009 22:05 BBS wrote: Oh yeah, that would be so cool and would make timing even more important like "okay, if i am too late with my units, i can't make them walk over the lava" cool stuff! definetely want it!
If you're too late with your units, you end up being killed anyway. Or it could easily be the other way around, if you wait long enough, you can make units walk over this old lava pit.
On August 19 2009 00:41 prOxi.Beater wrote: I don't think rising lava will make for a very good game element, as losing a lot of units to something else than your opponent's units is pretty lame. Falling lava that unlocks different part of the map after a set amount of time sounds like a very nice idea though, and is probably how they plan to make "newbie friendly" maps work.
arguing balance issues on this is pointless, no one knows. I'm sure it will be implemented in at the very least community made maps, which would be interesting. If it ends up being unbalanced, just stop playing that map. Simple.
On August 19 2009 22:05 lepape wrote: The main problem I would see with lava is that it's a mechanic controlled by the game instead of being player controlled (like rocks for exemple). Lava would force the players to adapt to the map over time, which is something that never was introduced in any Blizzard RTS, and time could become a too big factor in the game.
How about combining the rocks and lava together. For example destroying some rocks could cause lava to flow into your opponents base. This lava can only be a good thing it gives more options. If it doesnt work so be it, no ones going to be forced to use it.
On August 20 2009 05:00 Astray wrote: Starcraft 2 is slowly turning into one giant Use Map Settings game...
Well, well said.
Yeah... because Use Map Settings maps are where there is new mechanics right...? Please; just because they add more terrain and line of sight options, doesn't mean that the whole game is gonna suddenly turn into DotA. I think the line of sight obstructing objects and dynamic terrain types add depth. If you don't like it, then don't play maps that have it. Nobody is forcing you to play them...
On August 20 2009 05:00 Astray wrote: Starcraft 2 is slowly turning into one giant Use Map Settings game...
Yes the single player campaign is turning into a giant UMS.... ... ?? Am I missing something here?
i guess you didn't get around to playing all the fun ums games in starcraft...there were so many and they were so wild blizzard had to in wc3 put in a bunch of wild starcraft ums games into the wc3 campaign... now they are just doing the same thing again i guess, only this time it'll probably be a lot better since it's the second time around that they are doing it.
On August 19 2009 07:28 lepape wrote: I see many possible uses of lava on competitive maps, mainly : 2- Lava to separate bases, turning an island map into a regular map after X time, or the opposite. 3- Lava on specific paths, forcing players to use longer paths either permanently or temporarily. 4- Isolating far expansions late game, or removing the isolation of island expos after a while, thus punishing any turtle.
That sounds fucking awesome
Hell yeah, every point except the first one was nice.
What about if there were certain paths that had lava on them for the first 5 mins of the game, but then it opened up later? That could be for the "5 mins no rush" noobs.
Or if you could destroy a barrier/object that let the lava drain away and create a new access point, then it would really just be a 'prettier' way of implementing what's already on many proleague maps, ie. destructable stacked temples, or empty mineral patches.
edit - actually, think about the way Outsider changes over time as mineral lines get mined out. Surely lava could create a similar dynamic.
On August 21 2009 01:02 ActualSteve wrote: I can see the UMS possibilities, but nothing professional.
What about this? -
Or if you could destroy a barrier/object that let the lava drain away and create a new access point, then it would really just be a 'prettier' way of implementing what's already on many proleague maps, ie. destructable stacked temples, or empty mineral patches.
I think that this is a ums feature only implemented because some programmer loved lava dodge on the original sc XD
as far as progaming goes, I don't see any real application in terms of temporarily blocking mining. however having this kind of thing say in the middle of the map would significantly change the dynamics and make it a lot more interesting.
In addition to lepape's suggestions, changing lava levels can also change the shape of a battlefield with time. For example, early on, a map could have narrow paths, making surrounds and push breaks harder, but later on, receding lava leads to a wider battlefield, so flanking becomes more viable. Or beside an expo, a lava pool on the other side of cliffs recedes, so a base that earlier on was safe is now cliffable.
Dynamic maps in general I think can add to the game if used appropriately. Currently we already have the game changing as time passes in a match, especially in response to tech. For example, in TvZ, when mutas appear, Terran often plays defensively during this phase of the match. Dynamic maps can also contribute to make different time periods of a match play out differently.
As others have mentioned, current professional league maps already try to incorporate some changing-map elements with neutral buildings and the assimilator/geyser "thing". Dynamic maps will allow more interesting versions of such ideas, and in a more natural manner.
Where's the option for "No, it's a stupid gimmick." ?
I mean, you could say that it would mean attacking during lava rising is ideal because A: your opponent will have his attention split and B: He won't be able to reinforce his troops but... Then it's over, that's all the 'strategy' you added and it doesn't even sound interesting. Just a bunch of forced lapses in macro. Maybe if SCVs automatically went to high ground at the last second, or lava could occasionally block normal unit paths unrelated to macro, it would be cool, but just some dumb thing that makes you pull your SCVs every 2 minutes as an added kind of artificial apm is boring and uninteresting. Keep it on the Blizz maps for games with friends, but not in anything like Proleague.
Realistically, you aren't going to have that many expansions that sit in the lava. Furthermore, There's plenty of warning time, so any bases that you have in lava (the average of total bases per game for a player in SC sits around 4 mining bases, and I doubt that'll change) with have ample time to be cleared out. Finally, there's unlimited unit selection, so it won't be a problem getting all the workers out.
EPT
