EPTSky Deathball - A glimpse into the future problem - Page 4
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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Penguinator
United States837 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
give every race a new ability thats really expensive and hard to get and specializes in anti-air-deathball power terran planetary gravity enhancer (building, costs 2000/2000 and builds very slow) ability: enhance gravity, costs 200 energy effect: grounds all air units for 25 seconds, dealing 100 damage to them, making them immobile and attackable by ground units protoss global psi link (high templar ability, researchable at templars archive for 2000/2000) new HT ability: atmospheric psi storm you have to select 5 high templars at once to cast athmospheric psi storm, dealing psi storm damage to everything thats flying zerg overlord poison cloud (overlord ability, researchable at hive for 2000/2000) passive overlord ability, deals 1dmg/min per flying overlord to all enemy air units there you go, i solved it, thank me later | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 13 2013 20:04 llIH wrote: Sky Death Balls shouldn't be the best possible army. A ground army should be able to beat it. If not - everyone will go air units and that will be really boring to watch. It actually fits the name Starcraft quite well LOL. On a serious note, yeah, they should really consider increasing the difficulty in transitioning to sky deathballs. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
Thorzain v Targa isn't an example of why a sky terran deathball is unbeatable. Thorzain didn't win the game because he got a sky terran deathball. The Sky Terran Deathball was how he finished an already won game. Everything he needed to do to win happened before he switched to viking/raven. As Day[9] points out in the daily, he could've won the game a lot faster if he'd simply denied Targa's 6th which was quite feasible. Yes, he did lose his army during the attack on his fourth, but it wasn't a horrible loss. He was left with 3 banshees vs targa's 30 roaches; a difficult but defendable situation. It was his only bad engagement. What's more serious is that by the time that push happened around 18:00, Targa hadn't even started mining from his fourth, and Thorzain had just finished building his 4th, 5th, and 6th command centers. Thorzain was doing a ton of damage with hellion harassment. Targa's worker count losses were staggering, and then he lost his fifth to a push while Thorzain set up his fifth. A 4-base Zerg against a 5-base Terran is a lost game for the Zerg. True, he got a 5th shortly thereafter but was already way behind. By the time Thorzain had those BCs and ravens in position with the sensor towers set up, Targa was surviving on fumes. His unit loss count was almost double Thorzain's. Then Thorzain just starved him out. | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On January 29 2013 20:18 rEalGuapo wrote: I don't understand this obsession with finding "deathballs" and then crying in agony once you see someone play that way. You know what happened to PvZ? It became the most amazing matchup IF Protoss was competent enough to make something happen, abusing the slow pace and weak defensive capabilities against multi-pronged attacks. Rain playing PvZ looks SOOOO good to me. He pressures one base while attacking another from a proxy Pylon only to distract Zerg and get a Warp Prism in to snipe tech and Queens. THIS is the way the matchup would have evolved if not for HotS. Sooner or Later more and more Protoss would mimic this style and get more and more successful with it. At one point Zerg would have to adapt and realize that a incredibly slow army will only win if your opponent allows it. At your first game of starcraft what do you do? You get some buildings and some units, keep everything together and at one point win or lose. The same thing happens at Pro level, in the beginning you try to get a big army that wins against the other dudes army. At some point people figure out that one race has the better but slower army and after losing enough they try to develop ways to still beat it. How the HELL do you expect to be a game that has a few months of Beta to be ANYTHING OTHER than a turtle fest. Sure a few players will try to find other ways to play the game, but without all the knowledge and experience that is just inferior style. Do you HONESTLY believe that Starcraft 2 can be at the same level of quality as BW after less than a fifth of the same time of gathering experience? Sure Starcraft 2 evolves really quickly compared to the early BW but it will still take a ton of time and a couple of special people that understand the game far better than the rest to make this happen. Starcraft always gets compared to other sports, Soccer 30 years back was incredibly terrible. Compared to what you see now it was simply shit! That is how we will think in 5 years. Hell that is how we already think about what happened a year ago. In all honesty, calm your beards! This game WILL at some point not rely on deathballs in a lot of matchups. HotS and hopefully LoV will give more options for cool strategy that can be used to outplay someone who turtles and hopes to win with a single attack. TL;DR Don't expect anything BUT deathballs for at least another year of HotS, no matter what happens to the game, this is the easiest way to secure victory over a lot of people no matter what. The other problem giving people more reasons to push for death balls and turtle is the fact that naturals and 3rd are WAAAAY to easy to hold and have way to many resources. Most races don't need more then a natural to at least start reaching their death ball build potential and securing a 3rd is just icing on the cake. To make matters worse as a Zerg player you can have 5-6 bases to his 3 and it doesn't matter in the slightest. Cost efficiency wise you can throw 200/200 army after army at skytoss and you won't widdle it down enough to save your important still mining bases so there is no PUNISHMENT for hiding on 3 bases till your ready to push out. No matter what race you play if your opponent has 3 bases up on you, you should suffer immensely! Sadly this is not the case and only adds to the problem. I think if they adjusted the way the maps are and some of the resources it would force people to play out the early/midgame more to squabble over resources / bases. However, I don't see this happening | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
by "not late-game units" I mean their cost/supply is low. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Tommyth
Poland117 Posts
On February 14 2013 04:18 rustypipe wrote: The other problem giving people more reasons to push for death balls and turtle is the fact that naturals and 3rd are WAAAAY to easy to hold and have way to many resources. Most races don't need more then a natural to at least start reaching their death ball build potential and securing a 3rd is just icing on the cake. To make matters worse as a Zerg player you can have 5-6 bases to his 3 and it doesn't matter in the slightest. Cost efficiency wise you can throw 200/200 army after army at skytoss and you won't widdle it down enough to save your important still mining bases so there is no PUNISHMENT for hiding on 3 bases till your ready to push out. No matter what race you play if your opponent has 3 bases up on you, you should suffer immensely! Sadly this is not the case and only adds to the problem. I think if they adjusted the way the maps are and some of the resources it would force people to play out the early/midgame more to squabble over resources / bases. However, I don't see this happening If we implemented this in the game, zerg would win 90% of the games, terran 9% and protoss maybe 1% due to unscouted proxy gates. The difficulty in defending expansions and denying opponent expansions is very very different between races. And actually, in current map pool, protoss vs z can attempt to take a really fast third only on entombed and to some extent ohana. All other maps have thirds that are either moderately or hard to defend. The hots slightly changes that, though. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Protoss new Air-deathball scares me the most. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
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archflames
Mexico204 Posts
On February 14 2013 03:03 summerloud wrote: here is my totally awesome and ingenious idea to stop all air deathballs forever give every race a new ability thats really expensive and hard to get and specializes in anti-air-deathball power terran planetary gravity enhancer (building, costs 2000/2000 and builds very slow) ability: enhance gravity, costs 200 energy effect: grounds all air units for 25 seconds, dealing 100 damage to them, making them immobile and attackable by ground units protoss global psi link (high templar ability, researchable at templars archive for 2000/2000) new HT ability: atmospheric psi storm you have to select 5 high templars at once to cast athmospheric psi storm, dealing psi storm damage to everything thats flying zerg overlord poison cloud (overlord ability, researchable at hive for 2000/2000) passive overlord ability, deals 1dmg/min per flying overlord to all enemy air units there you go, i solved it, thank me later Nope, sc2 is not an MMO or MOBA the solution is a hard counter to anything that the other race can MASS to win, just as lings, mutas, marines, tanks, etc. all have hard counters and airtoss should be no different, right now zerg doesnt have anything that does the job. Infestors used to do this but we all know what happened to the infestor, and now we're back to the early stages of WoL when protosses used to go for the colosus voidray comp but now it's worse because zerg does not have many options to punish the protoss early game with the addition of the MS core. | ||
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
Mass Air should win you games, if you get in a good position by abusing your mobility. It should not kill mass turrets/spores/cannons/whatever like it does now. So, if Blizzard wants to balance this Air thing that is going on, it should probably do a) buff static anti air b) introduce a new kind of late game anti air defense system e.g. synergies between towers: more turrets nearby -> turret damage increases or a t3 tech air tower upgrade Mass Air is fun, but it should be exactly the opposite of what it is. YOU (the mass air guy) should be the own, waiting like a spider in its net, to poke the enemy where it hurts most. Yes, taking expansions should be hard for your enemy. But if he had like bazillions of towers, you'd have no chance to remove that with mass air. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On January 29 2013 21:12 Qikz wrote: Not that I disagree with you there, but that comes entirely down to map design, rather than game design. Maps are simply not big enough and have either far too many bases or bases that are not spread out enough. You can't abuse the mobility of big sky armies as none of the maps are wide or large enough to actually go attack a base where there army isn't. Ohana for example you could sit your sky army outside your third and defend all your bases by moving left or right ever so slightly. Daybreak has the same problem. That's not really the point with sky terran, though. RSL today had Brat_OK vs Goswser on Entombed valley, where Brat_OK teched to sky terran, while Goswser built up a bank of 12k/10k. Goswser went around Brat_OK's army and killed all of his bases (while four of Goswser's bases remained intact, although some of them were mined out). Goswser lost, because despite more supply and 20 spore crawlers, and mining bases, he could not engage battlecruiser raven. Brat_OK won an 80 minute game. Goswser should have killed earlier when he had an advantage, no doubt about it. But it's still weird that there's an army Terran can get which is so unapproachable that they don't need a mining base. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On February 14 2013 07:18 Prugelhugel wrote: The reason for all this is imo, that static defense is too strong against ground and too weak against air. Mass Air should win you games, if you get in a good position by abusing your mobility. It should not kill mass turrets/spores/cannons/whatever like it does now. So, if Blizzard wants to balance this Air thing that is going on, it should probably do a) buff static anti air b) introduce a new kind of late game anti air defense system e.g. synergies between towers: more turrets nearby -> turret damage increases or a t3 tech air tower upgrade Mass Air is fun, but it should be exactly the opposite of what it is. YOU (the mass air guy) should be the own, waiting like a spider in its net, to poke the enemy where it hurts most. Yes, taking expansions should be hard for your enemy. But if he had like bazillions of towers, you'd have no chance to remove that with mass air. The problem with that design is maps with islands. Take an island base, turret it up, and poof, you've guaranteed at least a stalemate if not a win. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Compare this to BW where each race had a strong GtA backbone with a strong anti-air caster: Goliaths + Ghosts (Lockdown!) BW Hydras + Defilers (Plague! Swarm!) Dragoons + Templars (Storm!) Air should be strong because of mobility, not because it can A-move and win against any ground unit composition. Unfortunately in HotS this is not the case. In WoL the only unstoppable skyball was BL/Festor, but now that is hardcountered by tempest or raven so we see Terran and Toss skyballs. The skyball solution - IMO - is to buff hydras, thors and stalkers against air. Give hydras a +2 base range vs air, make High Impact Payload strong enough to trade efficiently vs Carriers and VRs, and give stalkers different damage numbers vs ground and vs air. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On February 14 2013 07:18 Prugelhugel wrote: The reason for all this is imo, that static defense is too strong against ground and too weak against air. Mass Air should win you games, if you get in a good position by abusing your mobility. It should not kill mass turrets/spores/cannons/whatever like it does now. So, if Blizzard wants to balance this Air thing that is going on, it should probably do a) buff static anti air b) introduce a new kind of late game anti air defense system e.g. synergies between towers: more turrets nearby -> turret damage increases or a t3 tech air tower upgrade Mass Air is fun, but it should be exactly the opposite of what it is. YOU (the mass air guy) should be the own, waiting like a spider in its net, to poke the enemy where it hurts most. Yes, taking expansions should be hard for your enemy. But if he had like bazillions of towers, you'd have no chance to remove that with mass air. Buffing stuff isnt the way to go ... not putting in stupid stuff - basically anything which requires something else that already is in the game to be changed - is. | ||
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ETisME
12476 Posts
On February 14 2013 04:02 FlyingBeer wrote: A slightly stronger air deathball can be beaten as long as it's not too much stronger and if its lack of mobility can be abused. Thorzain v Targa isn't an example of why a sky terran deathball is unbeatable. Thorzain didn't win the game because he got a sky terran deathball. The Sky Terran Deathball was how he finished an already won game. Everything he needed to do to win happened before he switched to viking/raven. As Day[9] points out in the daily, he could've won the game a lot faster if he'd simply denied Targa's 6th which was quite feasible. Yes, he did lose his army during the attack on his fourth, but it wasn't a horrible loss. He was left with 3 banshees vs targa's 30 roaches; a difficult but defendable situation. It was his only bad engagement. What's more serious is that by the time that push happened around 18:00, Targa hadn't even started mining from his fourth, and Thorzain had just finished building his 4th, 5th, and 6th command centers. Thorzain was doing a ton of damage with hellion harassment. Targa's worker count losses were staggering, and then he lost his fifth to a push while Thorzain set up his fifth. A 4-base Zerg against a 5-base Terran is a lost game for the Zerg. True, he got a 5th shortly thereafter but was already way behind. By the time Thorzain had those BCs and ravens in position with the sensor towers set up, Targa was surviving on fumes. His unit loss count was almost double Thorzain's. Then Thorzain just starved him out. I disagree with your analysis. Targa took the approach when ahead, be more ahead and went into a broodlord infestor army while Thorzain had to restart from his failed attack. But Thorzain already had the sky transition ready, he was producing off 6 starports when TargA just had his broodlords and corruptors number high. So he went onto doing roaches runbys and buying time to get a more ideal unit composition The problem of the game isn't base number that Targa had. He had no issue with his income and his bank, he stayed max and had a bank for a looooooooooooong time. The game is to be won with a key engagement. The problem was that he couldn't engage that sky transition, but his own units get constantly sniped by HSMs and yamatos while he couldn't kill anything at all due to pdd and thors protection. That unit loss count is exactly what I am talking about. There is no efficiently way to engage it, even with 50 corruptors and around 20+ infestors support with queens Did you not see how targa back off from every engagement because he simply cannot engage? Even with all the time to prepare, all the units he could have produced? The game could have won differently by both players theoretically, but the game shows how even with lots of bank, lots of time, maxed upgrades, the game is won by a stronger air deathball due to the unit design. And this problem may occur in Hots with the new protoss air units, or even in Lotv if there are more air units to be made. (or even those which are effective against air, such as infestors, HTs, archons, Thors) | ||
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Siwelcela
United States87 Posts
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