EPTZerg and free units - Page 8
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On January 30 2013 00:07 Targe wrote: If broodlings were to cost then Zerg would not be able to build a huge bank and sack a bunch of workers to just rely on a large infestor broodlord ball. The problem of the broodlord is that when infestors are below it, it is impossible to get in the range to attack the broodlords due to either fungal, the wall of broodlings or infested terrans. This, combined with the fact that maps like Daybreak and Ohana where you can easily bounce from left to right with the slow broodlord army to protect all your bases, means that broodlords are stronger than intended. Edit: Commas Let's be clear about what the problem with broodlord infestor actually is. The broodlord is a siege unit, just like the guardian before it. It is a flying siege unit, unlike the siege units from other races, so it cannot be fought siege vs. siege. Since a siege unit attacks from afar and the other races' siege units cannot shoot at it, a broodlord forces you to approach it before you can attack it. Meanwhile, the infestor possesses the spell fungal growth, which is a root spell and a damage spell wrapped into one. The damage component is not overly dramatic; it's quite powerful against marines, zealots, sentries, banelings, mutalisks, etc, but it isn't really a very fast DPS. The root is significantly more important, because it enables the zerg to surround with zerglings, land good baneling hits, prevent an army from retreating, prevent an army from advancing, etc. Combine fungal growth with broodlords, and the opponent finds himself in a position where the only way to fight the opponent's army is to approach and then shoot, but fungal growth prevents any approach, so his units will simply be locked in place and take fire from the broodlords without being able to shoot back. The broodlings don't have a thing to do with it. The infested terrans don't even really have a thing to do with it. As someone else mentioned, if you combined fungal with tempests or fungal with siege tanks, the effect would be the same: the opponent simply cannot approach to fight the siege unit. Side note: Zergs don't really sack their workers to build a bigger broodlord infestor army (I mean, I'm sure someone does, but it's not really optimal). Broodlord infestor is actually not all that costly in terms of supply; you can easily build the army in well under 100 food, have a lot of zerglings sitting around for drops and such, and keep a large amount of supply in workers. In fact, it's much more common to add on a lot of drones once you have a broodlord infestor army, partly to build static defense at peripheral expansions, but also to mine a big bank so that if the first BL army dies, they can build another one. In particular, they're stockpiling gas because BL/infestor is a very gas-heavy army; adding a mineral cost to broodlings would not only be silly, but it also wouldn't matter much in most cases, because by this stage of the game Zergs will usually have a large bank of minerals and not much to do with it (you only need so many spine crawlers). Edit: phrasing | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
How important that wall is depends on the units you are using. If you got a marine ball for example you will be more worried about fungal than broodlings, since you can clear them away in no time. However try using thors against broodlords, even without infestors. In theory they should be able to shoot the broodlords, in practise they all get stuck due to the broodlings. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On January 30 2013 20:08 Sissors wrote: Broodlings have alot to do with it. However as Targe said it isnt because of the damage they do, it is because they really nicely supplement fungal: it creates a wall of units that you can barely get through. How important that wall is depends on the units you are using. If you got a marine ball for example you will be more worried about fungal than broodlings, since you can clear them away in no time. However try using thors against broodlords, even without infestors. In theory they should be able to shoot the broodlords, in practise they all get stuck due to the broodlings. I mean obviously the Zerg is never exactly upset that they have broodlings. I'd say their effect is much more defined against tanks than against thors; it's true thors get a little tripped up by the broodlings, but with tanks it literally forces the tanks to unsiege or kill themselves, as though the range deficit against broodlords weren't obnoxious enough in the first place. If you have decent army size the broodling wall isn't generally so brutal. For reference, if you've tried the thor response to broodlords, try the thor + hellion response to broodlords. You'll find you have very little problem with broodling walls, even with just a few hellions; even a large BL/infestor army is unlikely to have all that many broodlings out at once, and hellions kill them really quickly. Then the next thing you'll notice is that thors do virtually no damage to brood lords. Meanwhile the broodlords do quite a bit of damage to the thors, even if the broodlings are killed off immediately, because even without broodlings the broodlord base damage is considerable. And because thors cost 6 supply while broodlords only cost 4, zerg has room to have, say, zerglings or roaches or banelings to toss in. Ultimately thors are not all that effective a response; you're perhaps more inclined to use the thors to target stacked corruptors, and then try to win with vikings. But ultimately the broodlings, while obnoxious, are not the biggest issue with broodlord infestor; as the name suggests, the problem is, in fact, with the broodlord and the infestor. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
Imo, broodlings have a lot to do with it. Then I agree with the rest. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On January 30 2013 21:03 shin_toss wrote: I hate how broodlings absorbs too much DPS from Protoss army and also blocks/surrounds Stalkers. Imo, broodlings have a lot to do with it. Then I agree with the rest. Stalkers are an interesting case. If the problem is that you have to approach broodlords to kill them, and you can't approach, then stalkers seem like a decent answer since they can blink to approach, thus maybe avoiding the fungal. They're one of the better responses protoss has, in fact, and when a Protoss is significantly ahead of a Zerg who managed to reach a broodlord army, you easily may see the Protoss batter down the broodlords with a few waves of stalkers. Of course, this also makes broodlings somewhat less important, just because the big moment is the blink under the broodlords, which broodlings obviously can't prevent. This is a situation where infested terrans actually do become pretty important; ITs do enough DPS that even if you get a significant stalker force under the broodlords, you're still fighting a losing battle. You blink your whole army under the broodlords, snipe as many as you can, but lose stalkers much faster than he loses broodlords because even if the broodlords weren't there, ITs trade very, very effectively against stalkers. But even there, the issue isn't really that infested terrans are free. It's that infested terrans have really high DPS. So if you have enough infestors, and don't get a fungal off in time to stop a blink under the broodlords, you just need to be sure you have enough ITs to kill the stalkers off pretty effectively. Then while the Protoss rebuilds his stalker army, you can morph some of the corruptors you undoubtedly have lying around into broodlords to replace those lost and continue the assault. | ||
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
On January 30 2013 21:03 shin_toss wrote: I hate how broodlings absorbs too much DPS from Protoss army and also blocks/surrounds Stalkers. Imo, broodlings have a lot to do with it. Then I agree with the rest. This is "the problem", the concept of free zerg units its ok and its something unique for the race. But the free units are a bit unbalanced, and since the begining of WOL, players are become more creative to exploit this. Right now Z free units absorbs almost 50%-100% DPS of your army and even they manage to deal damage, at the end this is unfair: you have to retreat your army or suffer a lot of damage. A free unit should have A LOT less HP, enough to absorb some DPS but not enough to survive and make a lot of damage to the enemy. | ||
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Leonorran
Australia5 Posts
On January 30 2013 21:03 shin_toss wrote: I hate how broodlings absorbs too much DPS from Protoss army and also blocks/surrounds Stalkers. Imo, broodlings have a lot to do with it. Then I agree with the rest. i do understand your point but its invalid because as protoss you can get tempests well before i can get broodlords and not only can my BLs not atk your tempests but your tempests out range them and do extra damage vs massive so you can't complain that they lock down your stalkers | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
On January 30 2013 03:07 Thieving Magpie wrote: oh it's definitely skewed--play a TCG and you'll see just how strong token generators are compared to flesh and bone creatures. Given enough time token generators *will* win. Time they don't always have, but the more they keep things at a standstill the better it is for them. The thing is, whether you agree with it or not is personal opinion--Blizzard agrees that this should be Zerg's design. In that regard, they're very successful at it. I assume by your nickname we're talking about MTG here.  In MTG, token generators are strong because they can provide what's usually called "card advantage". This is a basic principle in SC2 too: free units (tokens) that trade with non-free units (cards) provide a big advantage. I don't think this is a problem per se and I don't know how can someone think that it doesn't feel zergy. The problem lies in specific implementations of this concept and more so in their interaction with other units/strategies, namely broodlord/infestor. The concept behind BL and swarm host is very simple: as Zerg, protect them at any cost and let the "tokens" do the job; as the Zerg's opponent, circumvent the "tokens" and go kill the slow, fragile and expensive "token generator". I like it. What I don't like, for example, is that a single spell (fungal) can completely shut down this basic gameplay dynamic. So, the point is: as of now, can we really punish a Zerg player that badly manages its "token generators"? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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-xRisk-
United States11 Posts
On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote: They're not technically free. Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it. I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. Mid master zerg opinion. Take that as you will. This is exactly. Spot on about SH. Really, Infestor is only unit that breaks the game because it can od damage and cast free units. Unlike SH and Broodlord who's value and damage is based upon the units they spawn. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 30 2013 23:04 Big G wrote: I assume by your nickname we're talking about MTG here. In MTG, token generators are strong because they can provide what's usually called "card advantage". This is a basic principle in SC2 too: free units (tokens) that trade with non-free units (cards) provide a big advantage. I don't think this is a problem per se and I don't know how can someone think that it doesn't feel zergy. The problem lies in specific implementations of this concept and more so in their interaction with other units/strategies, namely broodlord/infestor. The concept behind BL and swarm host is very simple: as Zerg, protect them at any cost and let the "tokens" do the job; as the Zerg's opponent, circumvent the "tokens" and go kill the slow, fragile and expensive "token generator". I like it. What I don't like, for example, is that a single spell (fungal) can completely shut down this basic gameplay dynamic. So, the point is: as of now, can we really punish a Zerg player that badly manages its "token generators"? Ever had a sligh deck get wrathed while a kjeldoran outpost is in play? Because that's what Broodfestor feels like. | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 30 2013 23:04 Big G wrote: I assume by your nickname we're talking about MTG here. In MTG, token generators are strong because they can provide what's usually called "card advantage". This is a basic principle in SC2 too: free units (tokens) that trade with non-free units (cards) provide a big advantage. I don't think this is a problem per se and I don't know how can someone think that it doesn't feel zergy. The problem lies in specific implementations of this concept and more so in their interaction with other units/strategies, namely broodlord/infestor. The concept behind BL and swarm host is very simple: as Zerg, protect them at any cost and let the "tokens" do the job; as the Zerg's opponent, circumvent the "tokens" and go kill the slow, fragile and expensive "token generator". I like it. What I don't like, for example, is that a single spell (fungal) can completely shut down this basic gameplay dynamic. So, the point is: as of now, can we really punish a Zerg player that badly manages its "token generators"? That same simple spell shuts down the whole opposition as well ... and there is hardly any way to get past a combination of both to actually get to the token generator. Honestly "token generators" are a terrible idea in a game that is so resource focused as Starcraft. With "slow token generators" (Ravens) it might not be such a problem, but there is still the problem of being able to "focus power" and getting a lot more out of it. With the Broodlord you dont even need to "focus" the power because the Broodlings come out at a super fast rate, so killing them on the ground doesnt matter because they get replaced almost instantly. If the Broodlings had a lifespan five times greater but the rate of fire was five times lower it might work, but there is still the Fungal Lockdown to worry about. The easiest way would be to bring back the "tennis ball spewing" Guardian from BW. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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Ohyra
Sweden59 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 31 2013 00:59 xsnac wrote: nothing is free . you would better open and talk about cost efficiecy since time=money=uits that takes time to spawn units = resources . same for energy , time = energy , time = money , energy = money Sorry, thats rubbish, because the Broodlings spawned by the Broodlord are replaced faster than you can kill them and then you still have the "your units that cost resources to replace die while only stuff that costs no money dies for the opponent" problem. Energy isnt the same as money if you have a "potential ratio" of getting the equivalent of EIGHT stimmed Marines for a fully charged Infestor which just occupies TWO supply ... The potential to focus your power on one point in time is just too much for caster units, but the rate of fire of Broodlords is so high that it replaces the free units it generates as they die. With a lot of Infestors the energy regeneration is pretty high, so energy is not a factor. Now if there was a "permanent cost" - something like losing hit points for every Broodling dropped - it might work, but there isnt anything like it. In BW the Dark Archon lost all its shields every time it cast Mind Control and that was great. On January 31 2013 00:51 HeeroFX wrote: I don't think you can out right take them out of the game for zerg. Because so many awesome games can happen and infestors+infested terrans are a kind of get out of jail card if you need to stall for units to be made while an army is knocking. I like the 2/2 cap Grumbels said. I think swarm hosts are a bit OP in huge numbers and it can be tricky to go out, to get em cause zerg could have lings/hydras/ roaches to keep em safe. I Doubt blizzard will do anything about this issue right away. So basically you are saying that without free units the game cant be awesome? You just have gotten used to it. BW didnt need junk like that and was still awesome. Blizzard wont do anything about it, because they wont bother but it could be easily corrected. Where is the Terran "get out of jail" card then? It doesnt exist, because anything the Raven can cast is too expensive and the 200 gas is a big chunk more than the gas cost of the Zerg units and Terrans actually need gas more than Zerg for their basic stuff already. The Protoss card is probably Psi Storm, but its harder to use than simply spawning some free units. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 31 2013 01:38 Rabiator wrote: Sorry, thats rubbish, because the Broodlings spawned by the Broodlord are replaced faster than you can kill them and then you still have the "your units that cost resources to replace die while only stuff that costs no money dies for the opponent" problem. Energy isnt the same as money if you have a "potential ratio" of getting the equivalent of EIGHT stimmed Marines for a fully charged Infestor which just occupies TWO supply ... The potential to focus your power on one point in time is just too much for caster units, but the rate of fire of Broodlords is so high that it replaces the free units it generates as they die. With a lot of Infestors the energy regeneration is pretty high, so energy is not a factor. Now if there was a "permanent cost" - something like losing hit points for every Broodling dropped - it might work, but there isnt anything like it. In BW the Dark Archon lost all its shields every time it cast Mind Control and that was great. Sorry, that's rubbish, because you can simply do the math. A Broodlord spawns 1 every 2.5seconds+1extra on the first shot. In a 5second combat, there are 4 Broodlings spawned by a broodlord. That's 120HP. That's less than what 3stimmed marines do damagewise in that time - so easily cleaned up fast by any reasonable marine army. (that's why unsupported broodlords aren't very good vs marines unless you can mass them or get a perfect position) Sorry, but I don't believe there is any reasonable even scenario in which your statement is true. What maybe discussable is the "frontload amount of Broodlings spawned" in the first seconds. Meaning that a combat is started on 0cooldown and with 2broodlings that spawn before the opponent can combat the broodlords, due to range (longrange vs air excluded). E.g.: 10 Broodlords spawn 20 broodlings at the beginning of a combat, 30 in the first 2.5seconds. So in conclusion, it's quite the opposite of what you are talking about that maybe a problem. Broodlords do too much early on in a combat, not in the longrun! | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 31 2013 00:41 Rabiator wrote: That same simple spell shuts down the whole opposition as well ... and there is hardly any way to get past a combination of both to actually get to the token generator. Honestly "token generators" are a terrible idea in a game that is so resource focused as Starcraft. With "slow token generators" (Ravens) it might not be such a problem, but there is still the problem of being able to "focus power" and getting a lot more out of it. With the Broodlord you dont even need to "focus" the power because the Broodlings come out at a super fast rate, so killing them on the ground doesnt matter because they get replaced almost instantly. If the Broodlings had a lifespan five times greater but the rate of fire was five times lower it might work, but there is still the Fungal Lockdown to worry about. The easiest way would be to bring back the "tennis ball spewing" Guardian from BW. Tokens/Unit Spawns are fine design wise--whether they're interesting or not is arbitrary. I LOVE spawn generation as after effects such as broodlings popping out of dying zerg structures, broodlings spawned from spawn broodling. I dislike the idea of using unit generation to create a "swarm" effect. Now, mathematically, thematically, and visually it is accurate. Large numbers of units being thrown to their deaths without costing Zerg money to do it to create the look and feel of an endless swarm of units. The problem is that it isn't mechanically accurate to playing "the swarm race." You as the player who picked the swarm want to grab a crapload of cheap units and throw it at the enemy. You don't want to babysit high supply siege units that rally tokens at the enemy. Going back to MTG--Green was the token race, Red was the burn race; but Green never felt as much as a swarm color than red does. Token generation creates a swarm, but it doesn't let you play with a swarm. The same thing is happening in SC2. People are upset that Zerg is the mech race with its slow siege units and Terran is the Swarm race throwing wave after wave of 1 supply units at the enemy. | ||
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