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On January 28 2013 03:34 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 22:08 naastyOne wrote:On January 27 2013 16:52 Goldfish wrote:On January 27 2013 03:52 SheaR619 wrote:
That just how protoss works. Even in BW it was similar but their was actually some sort of timing attack and aggression that protoss can do with +1 zealot and corsairs. The problem imo, is that the economy of the game is kinda bad atm. 3 base is the optimal max efficiency economy. Protoss also need an early access to a third base other wise they will die to stephano 200 roach push. Since the game is balance around FF, the third cant be TOO expose otherwise they die to 200 roach push as well.
This lead to turtling since zerg have no reason to get a 4th base other than gas. This mean zerg will just tech up and turtle as well. One of the way to deal with turtling is the expand since you got map control but since the game doesnt encourage any way of grabbing more then 3 bases, it not really the optimal choice. Yeah, it's the bases. The fewer minerals per bases maps (which sadly has fallen off) really helped fix the deathball problem in SC2 (while it lasted). I'd like to add a few things which helps with the deathball, turtle until win issue in BW are: 1. Control groups (a bit basic) being limited to 12 or less. 2. The pathing - Units (even if you tried) rarely clumped up in a small space. 3. And a lot of people forget to add this - The spells. In BW, spells were way way stronger than in SC2 and it greatly discouraged deathballs (or attacking with everything in one place) and encouraged more attacks everywhere.Every race had good defense thanks to the spells. This meant you were actually encouraged to attack with small groups of units instead of just one big unit (of everything you have). If someone attacked you with a maxed out army in BW, you had powerful spells that could take it all out if they weren't careful (so this encouraged attacking with small groups instead of large groups). Storms did 120 damage and had a much bigger radius (it's 2.0 if you convert it from BW to SC2, and that's around 33% bigger radius). A few storms would take out any death ball (nearly every unit, besides a capital ship, could be taken out by 1-2 storms as opposed to in SC2).On the Terran side, they had EMP (which removed all shields and energy) and Irradiate. Vultures and siege tanks (yet more anti death balls). Zerg side, Lurkers, Plague (up to 300 damage to all units affected, units cannot die from plague though). Also all the AoE units in BW weren't a-move units (well, besides Archons). Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Vultures (with spider mines), and spell casters were all units that required micro to use. So, this along with more bases (more spread out bases instead of just turtling on 3 base), the two important things IMO, prevented the death ball syndrome in BW.
And it made for a much better game because battles were happened more often (than in SC2) and were much less predictable too. We'll see how HotS does though. If HotS is basically WoL with a few less death ball units, I really think they should try changing SC2 more with LotV. Please, TvP was a tank deathball MU, always. Boring as shit, and predictable to the very core. Even though I generally agree, it still had stuff like Vulture herass all game long, Reaver drops, Zealot bombs and whatnot. In addition the a-move part after the turteling was done was different to SC2 deathballs. It was even more about positioning and getting the tanks sieged up in time. Some SC2 PvZ games don't have any action sometimes until giant armies are massed because nobody wants to. Protoss could lose his third, or army, or because of that the game when moving out to early, Zerg generelly wants to prolong the game to get the strong lategame army out. On top of that the herassment options aren't all that great (because they are not great in general or a huge commitment).
Reavers drops vere very rare. Zelot drops also rare. And SC2 has medivac drops, warp prism, and dancing arround your warp-in pylon, and you could dance arround infestor-broodlord ball cutting zerg expos with zelots warp in or your army and using mothership recalls. And Zergs could counter-attacking with lings. And Nydus worms. PvZ was unique in that infestor-broodlord was so good, you needed archon toilet to kill it, but now P has tempests, and T has new raven seeker missle, and fungals are nerfed, so XvZ should not be that bad any more.
Also, you can not compare by using few games, BW had some crappy games as well. Especially if played by somebody why were not KeSPA players.
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Did the deathball leave at any point in time?
It was there in all matchups for protoss - PvP with mass collossus, PvZ with mothership/templar/archon/collossus and PvT with chargelots/collossus/templar
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On January 28 2013 08:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
ZvP - Awful in every sense of the word. From the no fighting early game to the predictable mid game to the no fighting late game. Worst matchup in the game.
#Remove Toss (JK but seriously Toss needs to be redone)
Just played about 8 games today with about 4 of them being against Toss and this is absolutely right.
Early game
1. Open two base against Protoss with a quick tech to Lair
2. Fend off the incoming Oracle harass
Mid game
3. Take 3rd after Lair finishes
4. Begin Hydra den and Infestor pit and research roach speed and missile attack upgrade
5. Pump out Hydras, Swarm Hosts, Roach
6. Attempt to poke Protoss but NOPE has Collossi and Void. BACK UP SO I CAN GET CORRUPTORS! Take more bases for gas production
Late game
7. Make about 8 Corruptors and begin Hive tech
8. Start harassing Toss 3rd and 4th wiht Swarm Hosts.
9. Engage Toss army which now consists of Tempests as well
10. Pump out 3-4 Vipers
11. Win the game.
Seriously boring. There's no real chance for action mid game without the risk of either Protoss losing their entire army or Zerg losing their entire army. It's literally one battle and the game is essentially over.
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On January 28 2013 08:55 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 08:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
ZvP - Awful in every sense of the word. From the no fighting early game to the predictable mid game to the no fighting late game. Worst matchup in the game.
#Remove Toss (JK but seriously Toss needs to be redone) Just played about 8 games today with about 4 of them being against Toss and this is absolutely right. Early game 1. Open two base against Protoss with a quick tech to Lair 2. Fend off the incoming Oracle harass Mid game 3. Take 3rd after Lair finishes 4. Begin Hydra den and Infestor pit and research roach speed and missile attack upgrade 5. Pump out Hydras, Swarm Hosts, Roach 6. Attempt to poke Protoss but NOPE has Collossi and Void. BACK UP SO I CAN GET CORRUPTORS! Take more bases for gas production Late game 7. Make about 8 Corruptors and begin Hive tech 8. Start harassing Toss 3rd and 4th wiht Swarm Hosts. 9. Engage Toss army which now consists of Tempests as well 10. Pump out 3-4 Vipers 11. Win the game. Seriously boring. There's no real chance for action mid game without the risk of either Protoss losing their entire army or Zerg losing their entire army. It's literally one battle and the game is essentially over.
If you find that boring, why don't you use Mutas in the midgame?
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On January 28 2013 09:00 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 08:55 sagefreke wrote:On January 28 2013 08:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
ZvP - Awful in every sense of the word. From the no fighting early game to the predictable mid game to the no fighting late game. Worst matchup in the game.
#Remove Toss (JK but seriously Toss needs to be redone) Just played about 8 games today with about 4 of them being against Toss and this is absolutely right. Early game 1. Open two base against Protoss with a quick tech to Lair 2. Fend off the incoming Oracle harass Mid game 3. Take 3rd after Lair finishes 4. Begin Hydra den and Infestor pit and research roach speed and missile attack upgrade 5. Pump out Hydras, Swarm Hosts, Roach 6. Attempt to poke Protoss but NOPE has Collossi and Void. BACK UP SO I CAN GET CORRUPTORS! Take more bases for gas production Late game 7. Make about 8 Corruptors and begin Hive tech 8. Start harassing Toss 3rd and 4th wiht Swarm Hosts. 9. Engage Toss army which now consists of Tempests as well 10. Pump out 3-4 Vipers 11. Win the game. Seriously boring. There's no real chance for action mid game without the risk of either Protoss losing their entire army or Zerg losing their entire army. It's literally one battle and the game is essentially over. If you find that boring, why don't you use Mutas in the midgame?
Because if he's already opened with Stargate tech and I go Mutas, he's eventually going to pump out Phoenix which will make my Mutas pretty pointless. There's also the possibility that if he scouts me going 2 base Muta, he can just all in me and win right there from the get go.
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On January 28 2013 07:56 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 03:34 CruelZeratul wrote:On January 27 2013 22:08 naastyOne wrote:On January 27 2013 16:52 Goldfish wrote:On January 27 2013 03:52 SheaR619 wrote:
That just how protoss works. Even in BW it was similar but their was actually some sort of timing attack and aggression that protoss can do with +1 zealot and corsairs. The problem imo, is that the economy of the game is kinda bad atm. 3 base is the optimal max efficiency economy. Protoss also need an early access to a third base other wise they will die to stephano 200 roach push. Since the game is balance around FF, the third cant be TOO expose otherwise they die to 200 roach push as well.
This lead to turtling since zerg have no reason to get a 4th base other than gas. This mean zerg will just tech up and turtle as well. One of the way to deal with turtling is the expand since you got map control but since the game doesnt encourage any way of grabbing more then 3 bases, it not really the optimal choice. Yeah, it's the bases. The fewer minerals per bases maps (which sadly has fallen off) really helped fix the deathball problem in SC2 (while it lasted). I'd like to add a few things which helps with the deathball, turtle until win issue in BW are: 1. Control groups (a bit basic) being limited to 12 or less. 2. The pathing - Units (even if you tried) rarely clumped up in a small space. 3. And a lot of people forget to add this - The spells. In BW, spells were way way stronger than in SC2 and it greatly discouraged deathballs (or attacking with everything in one place) and encouraged more attacks everywhere.Every race had good defense thanks to the spells. This meant you were actually encouraged to attack with small groups of units instead of just one big unit (of everything you have). If someone attacked you with a maxed out army in BW, you had powerful spells that could take it all out if they weren't careful (so this encouraged attacking with small groups instead of large groups). Storms did 120 damage and had a much bigger radius (it's 2.0 if you convert it from BW to SC2, and that's around 33% bigger radius). A few storms would take out any death ball (nearly every unit, besides a capital ship, could be taken out by 1-2 storms as opposed to in SC2).On the Terran side, they had EMP (which removed all shields and energy) and Irradiate. Vultures and siege tanks (yet more anti death balls). Zerg side, Lurkers, Plague (up to 300 damage to all units affected, units cannot die from plague though). Also all the AoE units in BW weren't a-move units (well, besides Archons). Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Vultures (with spider mines), and spell casters were all units that required micro to use. So, this along with more bases (more spread out bases instead of just turtling on 3 base), the two important things IMO, prevented the death ball syndrome in BW.
And it made for a much better game because battles were happened more often (than in SC2) and were much less predictable too. We'll see how HotS does though. If HotS is basically WoL with a few less death ball units, I really think they should try changing SC2 more with LotV. Please, TvP was a tank deathball MU, always. Boring as shit, and predictable to the very core. Even though I generally agree, it still had stuff like Vulture herass all game long, Reaver drops, Zealot bombs and whatnot. In addition the a-move part after the turteling was done was different to SC2 deathballs. It was even more about positioning and getting the tanks sieged up in time. Some SC2 PvZ games don't have any action sometimes until giant armies are massed because nobody wants to. Protoss could lose his third, or army, or because of that the game when moving out to early, Zerg generelly wants to prolong the game to get the strong lategame army out. On top of that the herassment options aren't all that great (because they are not great in general or a huge commitment). Reavers drops vere very rare. Zelot drops also rare. And SC2 has medivac drops, warp prism, and dancing arround your warp-in pylon, and you could dance arround infestor-broodlord ball cutting zerg expos with zelots warp in or your army and using mothership recalls. And Zergs could counter-attacking with lings. And Nydus worms. PvZ was unique in that infestor-broodlord was so good, you needed archon toilet to kill it, but now P has tempests, and T has new raven seeker missle, and fungals are nerfed, so XvZ should not be that bad any more. Also, you can not compare by using few games, BW had some crappy games as well. Especially if played by somebody why were not KeSPA players.
Reaver drops were very rare? I call shennanigans.
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On January 28 2013 07:56 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 03:34 CruelZeratul wrote:On January 27 2013 22:08 naastyOne wrote:On January 27 2013 16:52 Goldfish wrote:On January 27 2013 03:52 SheaR619 wrote:
That just how protoss works. Even in BW it was similar but their was actually some sort of timing attack and aggression that protoss can do with +1 zealot and corsairs. The problem imo, is that the economy of the game is kinda bad atm. 3 base is the optimal max efficiency economy. Protoss also need an early access to a third base other wise they will die to stephano 200 roach push. Since the game is balance around FF, the third cant be TOO expose otherwise they die to 200 roach push as well.
This lead to turtling since zerg have no reason to get a 4th base other than gas. This mean zerg will just tech up and turtle as well. One of the way to deal with turtling is the expand since you got map control but since the game doesnt encourage any way of grabbing more then 3 bases, it not really the optimal choice. Yeah, it's the bases. The fewer minerals per bases maps (which sadly has fallen off) really helped fix the deathball problem in SC2 (while it lasted). I'd like to add a few things which helps with the deathball, turtle until win issue in BW are: 1. Control groups (a bit basic) being limited to 12 or less. 2. The pathing - Units (even if you tried) rarely clumped up in a small space. 3. And a lot of people forget to add this - The spells. In BW, spells were way way stronger than in SC2 and it greatly discouraged deathballs (or attacking with everything in one place) and encouraged more attacks everywhere.Every race had good defense thanks to the spells. This meant you were actually encouraged to attack with small groups of units instead of just one big unit (of everything you have). If someone attacked you with a maxed out army in BW, you had powerful spells that could take it all out if they weren't careful (so this encouraged attacking with small groups instead of large groups). Storms did 120 damage and had a much bigger radius (it's 2.0 if you convert it from BW to SC2, and that's around 33% bigger radius). A few storms would take out any death ball (nearly every unit, besides a capital ship, could be taken out by 1-2 storms as opposed to in SC2).On the Terran side, they had EMP (which removed all shields and energy) and Irradiate. Vultures and siege tanks (yet more anti death balls). Zerg side, Lurkers, Plague (up to 300 damage to all units affected, units cannot die from plague though). Also all the AoE units in BW weren't a-move units (well, besides Archons). Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Vultures (with spider mines), and spell casters were all units that required micro to use. So, this along with more bases (more spread out bases instead of just turtling on 3 base), the two important things IMO, prevented the death ball syndrome in BW.
And it made for a much better game because battles were happened more often (than in SC2) and were much less predictable too. We'll see how HotS does though. If HotS is basically WoL with a few less death ball units, I really think they should try changing SC2 more with LotV. Please, TvP was a tank deathball MU, always. Boring as shit, and predictable to the very core. Even though I generally agree, it still had stuff like Vulture herass all game long, Reaver drops, Zealot bombs and whatnot. In addition the a-move part after the turteling was done was different to SC2 deathballs. It was even more about positioning and getting the tanks sieged up in time. Some SC2 PvZ games don't have any action sometimes until giant armies are massed because nobody wants to. Protoss could lose his third, or army, or because of that the game when moving out to early, Zerg generelly wants to prolong the game to get the strong lategame army out. On top of that the herassment options aren't all that great (because they are not great in general or a huge commitment). Reavers drops vere very rare. Zelot drops also rare. And SC2 has medivac drops, warp prism, and dancing arround your warp-in pylon, and you could dance arround infestor-broodlord ball cutting zerg expos with zelots warp in or your army and using mothership recalls. And Zergs could counter-attacking with lings. And Nydus worms. PvZ was unique in that infestor-broodlord was so good, you needed archon toilet to kill it, but now P has tempests, and T has new raven seeker missle, and fungals are nerfed, so XvZ should not be that bad any more. Also, you can not compare by using few games, BW had some crappy games as well. Especially if played by somebody why were not KeSPA players.
The new HSM is bullshit...I mean the target unit is shown in red color and even a bronce player could move them out in 5 seconds...
Three seconds would be much better but 5 is a joke but thats not the topic of that thread.
The Protoss Deathball has his comeback in HotS and I agree with the most of you all.
The most boring match up is with Protoss as the oponent.
-TvT ist awesome, no explanation needed
-since the Infestor was nerfed TvZ become interesting and funny to watch
-ZvZ is not that interesting but better than PvP
-TvP is always the same...mid game aggression from Terran and turtling from Protoss and than mostly nothing
-ZvP is the turtle MU atm and not even worthy to be in SC2...
Protoss needs some rework like removing Collossus and buffing the High Templar like in Broodwar with 120 damage storm and more area-size (or maybe put something like the reaver into HotS), nerf the Voidray and make Tempests interesting (massing and a-move atm).
The most tactics of Protoss (hight level) are basically built a huge army composition and just attack move (because the Collossus design is bullshit).
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Yeah with how death bally toss has become I have started to play less and less hots cause I get zvp 90% of the time. I can only handle such a boring mu so much. Past week or 2 it's gotten worse and I would say it's now worse or as bad as WoL PvZ which I thought wasn't possible.
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It would help if 3rds and 4ths weren't so easy to take.
Newkirk City has this sort of right where the Natural has a wide ramp and it isn't a short distance between the natural and the 3rd.. but that is one map out of several.
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On January 27 2013 22:08 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 16:52 Goldfish wrote:On January 27 2013 03:52 SheaR619 wrote:
That just how protoss works. Even in BW it was similar but their was actually some sort of timing attack and aggression that protoss can do with +1 zealot and corsairs. The problem imo, is that the economy of the game is kinda bad atm. 3 base is the optimal max efficiency economy. Protoss also need an early access to a third base other wise they will die to stephano 200 roach push. Since the game is balance around FF, the third cant be TOO expose otherwise they die to 200 roach push as well.
This lead to turtling since zerg have no reason to get a 4th base other than gas. This mean zerg will just tech up and turtle as well. One of the way to deal with turtling is the expand since you got map control but since the game doesnt encourage any way of grabbing more then 3 bases, it not really the optimal choice. Yeah, it's the bases. The fewer minerals per bases maps (which sadly has fallen off) really helped fix the deathball problem in SC2 (while it lasted). I'd like to add a few things which helps with the deathball, turtle until win issue in BW are: 1. Control groups (a bit basic) being limited to 12 or less. 2. The pathing - Units (even if you tried) rarely clumped up in a small space. 3. And a lot of people forget to add this - The spells. In BW, spells were way way stronger than in SC2 and it greatly discouraged deathballs (or attacking with everything in one place) and encouraged more attacks everywhere.Every race had good defense thanks to the spells. This meant you were actually encouraged to attack with small groups of units instead of just one big unit (of everything you have). If someone attacked you with a maxed out army in BW, you had powerful spells that could take it all out if they weren't careful (so this encouraged attacking with small groups instead of large groups). Storms did 120 damage and had a much bigger radius (it's 2.0 if you convert it from BW to SC2, and that's around 33% bigger radius). A few storms would take out any death ball (nearly every unit, besides a capital ship, could be taken out by 1-2 storms as opposed to in SC2).On the Terran side, they had EMP (which removed all shields and energy) and Irradiate. Vultures and siege tanks (yet more anti death balls). Zerg side, Lurkers, Plague (up to 300 damage to all units affected, units cannot die from plague though). Also all the AoE units in BW weren't a-move units (well, besides Archons). Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Vultures (with spider mines), and spell casters were all units that required micro to use. So, this along with more bases (more spread out bases instead of just turtling on 3 base), the two important things IMO, prevented the death ball syndrome in BW.
And it made for a much better game because battles were happened more often (than in SC2) and were much less predictable too. We'll see how HotS does though. If HotS is basically WoL with a few less death ball units, I really think they should try changing SC2 more with LotV. Please, TvP was a tank deathball MU, always. Boring as shit, and predictable to the very core.
I say deathball very generally.
In SC2, battles end in like 5 seconds.
In BW, the battles were much more tug of war which were way more fun to watch than death ball vs death ball into gg 5 seconds later.
TvP BW was more fun to watch compared to TvP SC2 (IMO). TvP in SC2 is basically just amass MMM + Vikings then ram all units into Protoss army. While there are some really good TvPs in SC2 (MVP vs Squirtle games), a lot of them mostly are mostly the same.
Edit - Thinking about it, the potential for good games in TvP is definitely better in SC2 than in BW. While most of the games do end involving just one big battle into GG, the games that aren't that are really good. Ok, so TvP is probably better in SC2 than in BW.
Besides that, BW definitely had boring games but they were far less than SC2.
BW had a much better foundation for better games than SC2.
Edit - Speaking of that, I honestly wonder if Mutalisk micro should return (being able to attack move into attack without slowing down) in SC2. It's definitely possible to do in the Galaxy Editor.
I can see this making Mutalisk too much of a dominate unit (especially with fungal being a projectile now) in ZvZs but in other match ups, it could be more interesting.
I remember when the crowd cheered so loud when Jaedong built Mutalisks for the first time in SC2.... but sadly the crowd did not know Mutalisk are terrible in SC2 (compared to BW).
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You can't avoid death ball as a P player, due to the synergy between the differents units and sentries. Gardien shield ff.
Speed ling could be countered if all unit stay together if you split it you loss.
Death ball is the result of multiple things that cannot be avoid even in HOTS, but what is the problem of it?
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On January 28 2013 16:06 BerthaG wrote:
You can't avoid death ball as a P player, due to the synergy between the differents units and sentries. Gardien shield ff.
Speed ling could be countered if all unit stay together if you split it you loss.
Death ball is the result of multiple things that cannot be avoid even in HOTS, but what is the problem of it?
biggest problem:
the game becomes who gets a better ball AND once you lose an engagement, there is almost no coming back because a counter will just kill you.
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I just want to throw something in:
Yesterday I watches TLS Broodwar and it was a hell lot of fun (especially tvz). All around the map are small skirmishes and the terran player can get strong positions by just setting up some tanks and marine / medics with spider mines.
What I noticed was, that I really see a big problem in sc2 with xel naga towers give you a huge vision on the most important paths of the game.
For example on daybreak. In TvP I (the terran player) just get the watchtower and then get 1 marine on the top and one at the bottom path of the map and I'm done. I can spot every army movement from my opponent. My main base gets turrets and a sensor tower and I will be immune against every harassment at all.
So my point is that the huge vision range you get with Xel-Naga towers combined with small amount of attack paths disencourages small army movements because the other player will see it easily and you wont get any real benefit from doing them. You can react with your main army too fast and defend right in time and then you go back and sit on that xel naga tower again just waiting to intercept the next wave. Without xel naga towers on key positions you maybe should leave some units at that 5th base position because you cannot spot them early enough to deal with them. So you need to get units at important positions just to make sure you delay his push or even stop it. You also have to control space around your main army so you wont get flanked or ambushed if you move out.
It would be just way more dynamic if maps wont have that standard tower right in the middle of the map or at key movement positions like entombed, antiga, daybreak and other maps have.
I think it really sucks and limits the game by a lot. With creep you see half of the map and with the xel naga towers the rest? Whats the point of fog of war? To hide some early game shenanigans cause everything up from the mid game you can predict anyway? Why oracle has a spell to get vision on the army if vision is no real resource?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'd rather see deathball sky toss than colossus, colossi are just so boring.
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On January 28 2013 20:56 Targe wrote:
I'd rather see deathball sky toss than colossus, colossi are just so boring.
Doesn't matter if it's air deathball or colossi, it's still boring.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 28 2013 21:13 ViperPL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 20:56 Targe wrote:
I'd rather see deathball sky toss than colossus, colossi are just so boring. Doesn't matter if it's air deathball or colossi, it's still boring.
It's less boring, Colossi are in my opinion the most boring unit in the game.
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United Kingdom12032 Posts
On January 28 2013 21:13 ViperPL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 20:56 Targe wrote:
I'd rather see deathball sky toss than colossus, colossi are just so boring. Doesn't matter if it's air deathball or colossi, it's still boring.
Atleast if it's an air deathball they actually take a while to make and are super expensive. Kind of like a large number of carriers in BW.
Admittedly they need to make it so carriers are the best toss air unit rather than the tempest, but it's hella more interesting than a collosus deathball as it's a lot easier to punish.
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Tbh I get irritated when people throw around the word "Deathball" so invariably. The word "Deathball" contains so much silliness and to me it points to everything wrong with the game.
But now you people use it like its actually supposed to be a mechanic or strategy. Maybe we should simply change our ideas of playing the game?
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EPT
