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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
The reason for doing it is the numerous statements that the Viper is useless. I tried it with many different compositions and i could not make them work without the Ultralisk. In both cases I a-moved both armies, but in the latest i added cloud. It is in 720p. I am not a Protoss player  so I can't tell if the composition is "way off" This was not the point of the video, it was to show the impact of the cloud. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
Mmh, i win IF the protoss doesnt go airtoss. Cant win against airtoss atm. | ||
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
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NeXSC2
5 Posts
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:11 NeXSC2 wrote: Coulda cut out about 2 mins of that video..... other than that neat. Range is super important. Agreed. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:21 Existor wrote: Feedbacks can revert this scenario back to protoss side. Absolutely, but do you think it is that easy to feedback Vipers since they have quite good range on the cloud ? I mean you should really take care of them as they are your best friend and quite expensive. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:27 Nimitz.no wrote: Absolutely, but do you think it is that easy to feedback Vipers since they have quite good range on the cloud ? I mean you should really take care of them as they are your best friend and quite expensive. Feedback is range 9, blinding cloud is range 9. If your templar are at the front, feedback is definitely an option, but it is a bit tricky. | ||
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:34 a176 wrote: the problem with this is that no toss will just leave their army running around like chickens under a blinding cloud. chain it with fungal and it becomes especially devastating. Yes definitely, I tried it. Cast order: Fungal, Cloud (duration 14 sec), Fungal. and the Protoss got utterly demolished. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:27 Nimitz.no wrote: Absolutely, but do you think it is that easy to feedback Vipers since they have quite good range on the cloud ? I mean you should really take care of them as they are your best friend and quite expensive. Blinding Cloud does not prevents from using spells and abilities. It just reduces range of all standard attacks (i.e. not widow mines) Cast order: Fungal, Cloud (duration 14 sec), Fungal. and the Protoss got utterly demolished. Extremely heavy on gas and probably on minerals (vipers require aditional evolution chambers and extractors to consume) | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
viper is one of the coolest units in HotS. Would be even cooler with abduct at lair tech and blinding cloud at hive. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
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wongfeihung
United States763 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:51 Existor wrote: Extremely heavy on gas and probably on minerals (vipers require aditional evolution chambers and extractors to consume) You know what else is extremely gas-heavy? The Infestor/Brood lord composition. Did that ever stop people from making these units in the late game? Nope. Obviously, when people talk about adding a Viper-Infestor combo to your army, they're talking about the late or "super late" game. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for that army composition later on. About it also being heavy on minerals due to having to build additional Evolution Chambers. People shouldn't use Consume unless they plan on attacking very soon, or they are in imminent danger. Otherwise, just leave the Vipers idle to gain energy. Therefore, there's really no need to build a whole field of Evolution Chambers just for Consuming; there are plenty Extractors, Macro Hatches, and not to mention a potential Spine Crawler wall to use Consume on. Plus, there's no need to have a Viper-heavy composition; if controlled properly, 4-6 of them should suffice when engaging in combat. Not really sure why someone would need a field of Evolution Chambers to feed 6 Vipers. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On January 16 2013 09:06 wongfeihung wrote: You know what else is extremely gas-heavy? The Infestor/Brood lord composition. Did that ever stop people from making these units in the late game? Nope. Obviously, when people talk about adding a Viper-Infestor combo to your army, they're talking about the late or "super late" game. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for that army composition later on. About it also being heavy on minerals due to having to build additional Evolution Chambers. People shouldn't use Consume unless they plan on attacking very soon, or they are in imminent danger. Otherwise, just leave the Vipers idle to gain energy. Therefore, there's really no need to build a whole field of Evolution Chambers just for Consuming; there are plenty Extractors, Macro Hatches, and not to mention a potential Spine Crawler wall to use Consume on. Plus, there's no need to have a Viper-heavy composition; if controlled properly, 4-6 of them should suffice when engaging in combat. Not really sure why someone would need a field of Evolution Chambers to feed 6 Vipers. Not to mention evo chambers are only 75 minerals. We've all played/seen enough games where you're banking 3 or 4k minerals by the end of it. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
What's my point? Where is your consideration for the zerg max out with roach/hydra/viper? Are you saying that composition is completely nonviable because it fails in a unit tester? You need to add perspective. | ||
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Bahku
United States182 Posts
However, it seems like a lot of the time players get them, they lose because they should have gotten infestors. But perhaps its just a matter of players learning how to use them. | ||
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Mantaza
Germany87 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:21 Existor wrote: Feedbacks can revert this scenario back to protoss side. You cant Feedback a Viper before it can put down the Blinding Cloud. Its a really good Ability and completely underused yet. The one Spell with more Potential on the Zerg site. Abduct is really bad designed in this Point. Very Strong or Weak... I hope they nerf Voidray as fast as possible and ye im a Protoss player who says it. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 16 2013 11:58 Zrana wrote: Doesn't blinding cloud only affect biological units? So most protoss units are exempt, or was that changed? That was changed a LONG time ago. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
 (not to mention the protoss will be in a much better shape if they fall back instead of move forward.)I think Blinding Cloud is ok... not too OP nor UP but I highly believe it will be slightly UP when other races find out how to counter them (like with snipe, feedback or pick off with Viking, Blink and other timing attack...) and many players already know how to avoid them just by moving. Well at least it's fun seeing enemy run away from you | ||
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Xxazn4lyfe51xX
United States976 Posts
On January 16 2013 07:20 Grapefruit wrote: The only problem is that Protoss don't make this Stalker/Collossi heavy armies against Zerg. The current meta is Air with HT and Zealot support. Not only this, but the setup in this is a bit biased in that we have an almost exclusively ranged protoss army (0 zealots), facing off against an almost exclusively ranged zerg army with 4 ultras. Of course blinding cloud will have a huge effect on such an engagement. Throw in melee units on both sides though, and I imagine things could change a bit. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
On January 16 2013 13:56 BlueKatz wrote: The video is somewhat misleading imo. The second time you include 4 Viper which is 800 Gas (and full energy). Just saying that's like 16 Hydra or 32 Roaches or 4 more Ultra. Although I highly doubt that will help the Zerg army beat the Protoss in the first case without Blind but the result is closer than you might think (not to mention the protoss will be in a much better shape if they fall back instead of move forward.)I think Blinding Cloud is ok... not too OP nor UP but I highly believe it will be slightly UP when other races find out how to counter them (like with snipe, feedback or pick off with Viking, Blink and other timing attack...) and many players already know how to avoid them just by moving. Well at least it's fun seeing enemy run away from you I tried that as well as I thought of the point you make while recording. I tossed in more ultra/roach. Result was about the same. The big/HUGE difference to a "live" scenario is the HT support with Feedback / Storm + add some micro. With regards to Air units with HT support. I tried that as well. However you skip the roach&ultra of course and just pile on hydras. In addition i used "Abduct" on carriers with great outcome. In the late game toss it is the carrier that makes all the difference as your AA units fire at the interceptors constant unless you target units, but targeting units will make you lose this close fight since you lose DPS in the extremely important starting seconds of the encounter. Added 20 Voids+ 5 Carriers and pulling those 5 carriers into the corruptor/hydra army, the outcome was quite nice for the Zerg. You can do 8 pulls with 4 Vipers. They have 200 Energy and "Abduct" costs 75. Please don't misunderstand the point of the thread as in: Zerg will beat Protoss if you do this. This is just tests to help out in the difficult beta of HotS + we all learn something from the different responses people give. | ||
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Rallerbabz
Denmark15 Posts
You are microing the Zerg army vs a Protoss army that is not microed. A Protoss would never let the Colossi walk forward because of a Blinding Cloud, that would simply not happen. The Protoss would also Feedback the Vipers and/or use Storm to kill the Hydras/Roach, the Feedback and Blinding Cloud has the same range as far as I know, and the HTs arent affected by the Blinding Cloud so they can still cast their special abilities. Second of all, the Protoss army you made arent the current metagame. Protoss tend to go for Skytoss added with HTs for storms against Hydras and Corruptors. Hydras and Corruptors dies instantly against this, so you don't have time to pull some units with Abduct - and even if you pull a few Tempests/Voidrays it doesnt really matter since they; 1) Wont die due to dead Hydras/Corruptors already or 2) If they die it is nothing compared to a lost 200/200 Zerg army. The Viper is definitely one of the most exciting units for Swarm in my opinion, but I really think it needs a buff or two. It has some great micro abilities and can do a lot of harm, but it is simply too expensive/weak and takes time to get, since you need full energy on them in order to work - Similar to Broodlords, they need time to get ready(morph) as well. The cost is 100 minerals and 200 gas so they are extremely expensive in gas. In the video you have 4 Vipers if I'm correct and that makes 400 minerals and 800 gas. Now put that in something else than Vipers, and you'd most likely won the battle with even less loss 400 minerals doesnt add much to an army, but minerals are basically countless in the lategame. 800 gas can be used for 4(four!) more Ultralisk or 16 more Hydralisk. As I just said, it is more than 400 minerals, but when both opponent are nearly maxed out, the extra 1k minerals isn't much. Hell, even 2 Ultralisks/8 Hydralisks will do equal amount of good than the 4 Vipers I personally think Oh and; the Zerg army in the video is a hardcounter against that Protoss army; Ultralisks shred stalkers apart as well as tanks the colos dmg while roach/hydra adds some extra firepower. What do you think of these thoughts? | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On January 16 2013 14:55 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote: Not only this, but the setup in this is a bit biased in that we have an almost exclusively ranged protoss army (0 zealots), facing off against an almost exclusively ranged zerg army with 4 ultras. Of course blinding cloud will have a huge effect on such an engagement. Throw in melee units on both sides though, and I imagine things could change a bit. RIght now Protoss has no cost efficient ground answer to Ultralisks. So throw in more Zealots and Ultras and it will go more into Zerg's favour. Ultras right now are the BOMB! | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On January 16 2013 20:38 Rallerbabz wrote: You are microing the Zerg army vs a Protoss army that is not microed. A Protoss would never let the Colossi walk forward because of a Blinding Cloud, that would simply not happen. The Protoss would also Feedback the Vipers and/or use Storm to kill the Hydras/Roach, the Feedback and Blinding Cloud has the same range as far as I know, and the HTs arent affected by the Blinding Cloud so they can still cast their special abilities. The only micro he does is using Blinding cloud, all units in the video that are not Vipers just a-move. Vipers should not get fedback. Both spells have the same range, however If Protoss has his Templar in the first line of units in order to feedback Vipers you can just pull back your Vipers and kill them. I know it is much to ask for Zergs to micro their Spell casters but it would make Vipers incredibly good. (Almost every pro just headbutts Protoss with their Infestors..) Second of all, the Protoss army you made arent the current metagame. Protoss tend to go for Skytoss added with HTs for storms against Hydras and Corruptors. Hydras and Corruptors dies instantly against this, so you don't have time to pull some units with Abduct - and even if you pull a few Tempests/Voidrays it doesnt really matter since they; 1) Wont die due to dead Hydras/Corruptors already or 2) If they die it is nothing compared to a lost 200/200 Zerg army. This goes to show the strength against ground units. A spell that does not affect air units is not good against air units. Thank you so much for pointing that out. The Viper is definitely one of the most exciting units for Swarm in my opinion, but I really think it needs a buff or two. It has some great micro abilities and can do a lot of harm, but it is simply too expensive/weak and takes time to get, since you need full energy on them in order to work - Similar to Broodlords, they need time to get ready(morph) as well. The cost is 100 minerals and 200 gas so they are extremely expensive in gas. In the video you have 4 Vipers if I'm correct and that makes 400 minerals and 800 gas. Now put that in something else than Vipers, and you'd most likely won the battle with even less loss 400 minerals doesnt add much to an army, but minerals are basically countless in the lategame. 800 gas can be used for 4(four!) more Ultralisk or 16 more Hydralisk. As I just said, it is more than 400 minerals, but when both opponent are nearly maxed out, the extra 1k minerals isn't much. Hell, even 2 Ultralisks/8 Hydralisks will do equal amount of good than the 4 Vipers I personally think Completely situational. Also food matters. 16 Hydras will cost a bit more food than 4 Vipers I think. Oh and; the Zerg army in the video is a hardcounter against that Protoss army; Ultralisks shred stalkers apart as well as tanks the colos dmg while roach/hydra adds some extra firepower. As illustrated by the first part where Protoss just destroys the Zerg forces and doesn't lose a lot. What do you think of these thoughts? Wasted breath. | ||
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zBro
Finland448 Posts
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Rallerbabz
Denmark15 Posts
On January 16 2013 20:43 rEalGuapo wrote: RIght now Protoss has no cost efficient ground answer to Ultralisks. So throw in more Zealots and Ultras and it will go more into Zerg's favour. Ultras right now are the BOMB! You are so much right, Immortals sucks against Ultralisks. Ultralisks will never be viable in ZvP as long as Immortal exist. | ||
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Rallerbabz
Denmark15 Posts
On January 16 2013 20:50 rEalGuapo wrote: The only micro he does is using Blinding cloud, all units in the video that are not Vipers just a-move. Vipers should not get fedback. Both spells have the same range, however If Protoss has his Templar in the first line of units in order to feedback Vipers you can just pull back your Vipers and kill them. I know it is much to ask for Zergs to micro their Spell casters but it would make Vipers incredibly good. (Almost every pro just headbutts Protoss with their Infestors..) This is a pretty damn invalid arguement. There is nothing else at the Zerg army to be microed pretty much. If the Protoss player microed the HTs(just the HTs), the battle would go to Protoss favor. Storming the army or/and Feedbacking the Viper eventually. What you don't get is that it isnt all about Feedbacking the Vipers in time, HTs has Storm as well, which wont be affected by the Blinding Cloud. If the HTs are in front they wouldn't just be killed by the Zerg army, the Protoss player will probably land some Storms on the Roach/Hydra army and kill the entire army. Your bias to Protoss really shines thru here. On January 16 2013 20:50 rEalGuapo wrote: This goes to show the strength against ground units. A spell that does not affect air units is not good against air units. Thank you so much for pointing that out. This thread is about the Blinding Cloud against Protoss, hence it is important that we're dicussing according to the current metagame, which is Skytoss for the most part, and not the composition showed in the video. Vipers might be OK against that, but what does it matter when no one is using it anyway? On January 16 2013 20:50 rEalGuapo wrote: Completely situational. Also food matters. 16 Hydras will cost a bit more food than 4 Vipers I think. While that is right, you might want to consider the time before Vipers are actually ready for fight as well as the cost, even tho you might not be able to convert all the ressources to units. The ressources will still be in your bank and it will help you remax your army quicker. Vipers cost 3 supply which is 12 supply for 4. That still makes 6 hydras or another Ultralisk. I haven't tested it, but it might be nearly as good. On January 16 2013 20:50 rEalGuapo wrote:As illustrated by the first part where Protoss just destroys the Zerg forces and doesn't lose a lot. Yep, and this is beause the Protoss army has the advantage due to the A-move. Two of the Ultralisks was behind the army, Corruptors needs to focusfire the Colossi instead of spreading out the damage as well as shooting at the Voidrays, and the Hydralisks needs to be behind the Roaches(Some of them werent). The Protoss army pretty much engage perfect. On January 16 2013 20:50 rEalGuapo wrote:Wasted breath. You might want to reconsider that. At least until you come with some valid points. Oh and; Srsly, drop the bad attitude. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
As for the spell itself, teching to vipers is often my priority in any ZvX game, but it's a must in ZvT. Ultra/Ling/Infestor/Vipers synergise incredibly well in literally wiping any mech heavy and protoss robo based builds (with protoss to a lesser extent, especially with good control). The ability can almost be used on demand through evo chambers which is great. I believe the vipers are becoming the new staple in ZvT and P while to a lesser extent ZvZ since it's a matchup that's either largely dependent on muta count or roach/hydra/infestor. While it does seem a little bit too strong vs mech and bio in general, i feel that ghosts can be used to combat them quite effectively. unlike traditional casters, emps only temporarily drain their energy to which vipers can just fall back and absorb another 200 energy, ready to cast 2 spells, in which ghosts may not have enough to emp that away. That is my only concern atm. Other than that, it's a highly useful spell that brings a nice micro element to Z. | ||
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Nimitz.no
Norway44 Posts
What I see from testing back and forth with it, is my Zerg late-game will have at least 4 Vipers and 4 Infestors for Fungal + Blinding Cloud, or Abduct. What the rest of the army is is completely up to scouting and individual choice. What these 8 units bring to a battle is vital. This taken into consideration makes me a bit more happy towards HotS release as the Zerg units now becomes really micro heavy, not only Terran that needs to split marines With AirToss it is the same 8 units + mass 3/3 Hydra/Corruptor as anything else is just useless food unless you are counterattacking. And it is the carriers that needs to be Abducted. Earlier you had problems with the slow hydras, not only to get into attack and out again, but reinforcements where almost hopeless to get in time. Now they can replenish an army and they are not insane expensive 100/50 as long as you save your Vipers/Infestors. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On January 16 2013 22:12 Nimitz.no wrote: The whole micro part would surely turn the battle one way or the other, that is, with some macro, what separates players isn't it. What I see from testing back and forth with it, is my Zerg late-game will have at least 4 Vipers and 4 Infestors for Fungal + Blinding Cloud, or Abduct. What the rest of the army is is completely up to scouting and individual choice. What these 8 units bring to a battle is vital. This taken into consideration makes me a bit more happy towards HotS release as the Zerg units now becomes really micro heavy, not only Terran that needs to split marines With AirToss it is the same 8 units + mass 3/3 Hydra/Corruptor as anything else is just useless food unless you are counterattacking. And it is the carriers that needs to be Abducted. Earlier you had problems with the slow hydras, not only to get into attack and out again, but reinforcements where almost hopeless to get in time. Now they can replenish an army and they are not insane expensive 100/50 as long as you save your Vipers/Infestors. Agreed. Their reinforcement capacity has strengthened significantly. A hydra/ultra remax is very very powerful against any ground composition. Not to mention, unlike blords, the key spell casters are FAST and can retreat far more easily. Blords were typically an all in option, with no option to retreat unless the Z player fights equally or favourably. On another note, the video on Page 1 is not representative of what real games are like. There are a lot of missing micro potentials from both sides. It's not a matter of simply casting blinding cloud and make a judgement based on that. The P is missing time warp and collossi kiting OUT of the blinding cloud. The Z is also missing critical flanks which result in a lot of units not doing any real damage and getting caught out. There was also a lack of focus fire on the collossi and these are just a few to be named. | ||
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mandingo
25 Posts
On January 16 2013 20:43 rEalGuapo wrote: RIght now Protoss has no cost efficient ground answer to Ultralisks. So throw in more Zealots and Ultras and it will go more into Zerg's favour. Ultras right now are the BOMB! Ever heard of Immortals? | ||
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