EPTSwarm Host Design Flaw: Assessment and Solution - Page 4
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
This way, they can overlap when a new batch pops and do double damage for a few seconds. They could also possibly target Air units with this change. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
It can then morph into "Baneling-Swarm Host" "Hydras-Swarm Host" Baneling SH will swarm non-stop swarming 2 weaker version of banelings, Hydra-SH will be like lurker. Just an idea. Might be too op. | ||
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eg9
Norway43 Posts
Most of the time, they will kill something. The unit has a range that pretty much always allows it to do damage. Unless your opponent decides to spend FF or gets a lot of collosi. Also, if fighting bio, you waste a lot of medivac energy which is amazing. You force him to keep his army back. Without his army present your 10-12 locusts will deal quite a bit of damage. This forces him to stay behind at times when he would like to be moving out. (EG. certain bio builds have to delay some of their drops just to have enough to engage the locusts well. You draw him out. The SH is so that when one wave of locusts dies really fast the opponent wants to go for the kill and attack before the next wave spawns. This forces the enemy to go out to the position where the locusts are, probably open terrain, making them much more suceptible to surrounds/tactical manouvers. You constantly scout. The locusts that go forward see what units your opponent is building, the buildings nearby etc... This means you are constantly getting a pretty good scout of against your opponent allowing you to transition as you should behind it. The pressure you put on also makes it hard for the opponent to take a decently early third. Now you said it does not synergize well with the other units. Once again i am forced to disagree. I agree it does not synergize well with ultras or broodlords but why would you need even more only anti-ground units. The SH is supposed to be a midgame tech that you can commit to without making them useless later like the WoL roach. It does synergize quite well with infestors, hydras and vipers. (mutas, maybe i dont know much about SH muta appart from ZvZ). Infestors allow you to lock your opponent down while you retreat/wait for another round of locusts. Vipers can off cource abduct tanks, collosi etc, allowing your locusts to pick some off for free. And hydras have some really interesting relations with the lucusts. The locusts, having shorter range, tank for the hydras while they deal with air-threats and help increase the dps in low-surface area positions. I have had quite a bit of success with SH-hydra against bio and the new medivacs, belive it or not. The high ammount of pressure that the SH provides makes the decision to drop really tough for the terran. Pressuring one place allows lings/hydras to go to other places to deal damage at the third or other exposed areas. Blings delays the opponent or punishes him hard when he decides to move down his ramp. Imo, the unit gives zerg the ability to pressure without having to make inefficient trades in the midgame. This pressure frees you up to do other things on the map while giving you a clue about whats up. It synergizes with other lair-units and and the viper allowing you to better deal with the defending compositions. Its a unit that is hard to decide how many you want of. But most of all its a unit that introduces totally new mechanics to a race that earlier has had a really allin relation to midgame pressure. Its interesting to me at least. Being quite an agressive player i do not konw much of using SH defencively while expanding or taking more bases, maybe they have even more potential? | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On December 16 2012 13:19 oOOoOphidian wrote: I really don't like this unit at all. It's either critical mass (which costs enough to put you all-in) or it's useless. It's like a significantly worse brood lord for the same essential cost. I made a thread a few days ago suggesting a new upgrade that would make the swarm host feel swarmy and unique and solve the massing problem. but the thread got closed -_- | ||
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BuRRziLLa727
6 Posts
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porygon361
81 Posts
On December 16 2012 16:40 Zergrusher wrote: I made a thread a few days ago suggesting a new upgrade that would make the swarm host feel swarmy and unique and solve the massing problem. but the thread got closed -_- Could you put the idea out to us? I would like to know. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On December 16 2012 17:04 porygon361 wrote: Could you put the idea out to us? I would like to know. Well Plexa removed it -_- I had the name for it , the cost etc etc I litterally had it completely done and made, it was perfect. I was trying to look threw to see if i could have found a way to post a link to the thread, but i can't find it :/ I could put the idea out to you guys, But the last time(s) I put out good ideas The next thing i know my ideas are done in patches and i can no longer post on threads/forums/blogs etc etc, basically I've been threw some odd stuff. One change you guys can thank me for the protoss upgrade cost decrease, I Got banned from the Bnet forums because..well thats a very very interesting story, that relates to to the "submission" of the costs. But as for the swarm host Idea, I'll see If i can post something(by something I mean remake the thread but make it better and more detailed) about it, its on my "to do list" of threads I have to get around to making. | ||
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HeXen
United States1 Post
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
So what's with the mid game? Currently Zerg can't do anything after Protoss get T3 (or get enough immortal) or when Terran gets enough units (you can't do anything off creep vs Terran). On the other hand other race can't do anything on creep and vs Infestor (defensively) So naturally SH should allow Zerg to actually break enemy's superior force, break siege contain, strong enough (or allow your other units) to fight toe to toe vs other race's strong mid game force... Which, ironically what the Viper does best And Infestor does the rest (defensive wise) The ability to contain enemy and take more bases is exactly what the Muta can do Really, it has no role beside being a huge cheesy jack-of-all trade unit Here are some changes that should be made: -SH must be cheaper and easier to get. If I get Pit I will get other stuffs instead. SH itself is too expensive and weak at low number - really, 200 Min, 100 Gas? (of course it might be nerfed if it gets cheaper) -Its speed should be buffed. It should be an aggressive support unit, not an on creep defender. -Locus should be able to jump down from cliff - Zerg is the race with least benefit from taking positional high ground. -Reduce the time on Locus and the time for SH to create new units. Make it more constantly and aggressive, also allow new waves of Locus to appear behind the army and shoot with their high DPS instead of preventing your army movement (being better at supporting your army) -SH swarm more Locus at once, make it harder to mass SH. Increase its size as well -Increase Locus speed -Either remove or completely change the Upgrade which takes forever to research (which force you to commit into SH) Optional: Make Locus a 'floating' unit similar to Colossus which cannot stack like Air unit (so you can't mass Locus) but allow other units to walk pass them Also I wish they change Locus design, they look like meat. Mosquito might look more interesting. | ||
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porygon361
81 Posts
On December 16 2012 17:08 Zergrusher wrote: I could put the idea out to you guys, But the last time(s) I put out good ideas The next thing i know my ideas are done in patches and i can no longer post on threads/forums/blogs etc etc, basically I've been threw some odd stuff. I know the feeling. I written a guide on WoL Zerg Wall-ins, and three days later, they released a HotS patch increasing the size of Spine crawlers. Once you get your thread up, link it to this thread, I would like to see it. | ||
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387422 OT: imo just cut the price by a bit, decrease locus lifespan, increase locust spawning speed, | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On December 16 2012 01:39 BronzeKnee wrote: I've given this a tremendous amount of thought, and posted this two weeks ago regarding the Swarmhost: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7200032560. + Show Spoiler + My problem with the Swarm Host is that the doesn't unit functions well with other Zerg units (at least in PvZ) and doesn't offer anything different in PvZ really. The Swarmhost lacks synergy with the fast moving Roach and Speedling, so it becomes a different form of play in the same way that Colossus play differs from Templar play in PvT. That is fine, but they cost a lot, you need a lot to make them work and the Swarmhost doesn't work that well with Ultralisk or Broodlords, limiting transitions. Compare this to the Infestor, which you can invest a lot into during the mid-game and use them defensively or offensively and then they synergize well with Broodlords or Ultralisks in the late game. Swarm Hosts do not synergize well with Ultralisks or Broodlords in the late game, so if you want to transition into the late game from the mid game, Infestors are still the best choice by far. And when you are building large amounts of Swarmhosts, you have to end the game with that composition due to their cost and the fact they don't synergize with Broods or Ultralisks (you won't be able to protect your Broods like Infestors can, and Ultralisks will just get blocked by the Locusts and Fungal won't be there to hold units down for Ultralisks) so they will be best used for all-ins. Thus in many ways, they function like Hydras do in PvZ, good for some all-in timings, but not viable for late game play. And so Zerg can build a bunch of them and hit a timing with Corrupters and Hydras or Infestors or whatever, but the Protoss player doesn't really need to do much different than standard play, teching up to Colossus and building a few for the lategame deathball (note that unlike the Swarm Host the Colossus works well in the mid-game and then transitions well as part of the late game deathball). It is these Colossus that allow you to defeat Swarm Hosts. So you simply need to scout your opponent, realize they are heading for Swarmhosts, and cut your tech and produce a lot of units. So you hold them the same way you'd hold any other all-in. The Swarmhost then just provides another all-in opportunity for Zerg in PvZ, rather than a new unique and interesting style of play. I haven't had many issues with Swarmhosts as a Protoss player. I lose to them when I don't scout for them or prepare for them properly as I should. I have been playing versus Masters and GM Zergs lately. It is indeed an all-in unit, and one that doesn't synergize well with Hive Tech units as I explained in that post. At this point I am fairly certain there is not a way to fix this. It is a bad unit design. Either the unit ends up being Broods unnecessary because it is so powerful, or it ends simply not being used because Broods are a better choice. There really isn't any middle ground here due to the nature of the unit in relation to other Zerg units and the fact that you need a lot of them to be effective. Once you've committed to them, you have to stick with them. I will say that Vipers would probably work well with them though. It is a shame too, because the Swarmhost was one of the units I think seemed fun, but in the end it needs to be removed or radically altered. I agree, the problem with the Swarmhost fwiw is that it's a Hive tech unit at Lair tech instead of a supplimental siege unit like the Siege Tank and you have to either go all-in with them or transition out of them completely, which is similar to the state of Mutalisks. Their resource and supply cost and relative ineffectiveness in small numbers I think are the main design problems, but aesthetically I still think it's one of the best HOTS units released. | ||
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Saigon2246
Hungary23 Posts
Bad design - again (feeling deja vu...). I sense that the problem is that Blizzard refuses the idea of bringing back the Lurker. They just don't want SC2 to become Brood War, but if something is well designed, then it is well designed, they shouldn't be in denial that they cannot make a better balanced and designed game than BW. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
- they could deny the creep before roaches or mutas - they could deny the third if the zerg didnt have said roaches or mutas - they threatened constantly to runby and kill workers if the zerg wanted to leave his base with his speedlings - if there were no spines, and if they were well microed, they could inflict some damage over time (kill lings here and there, slowly damage queens) - if the zerg was totally unprepared for the helions (no speed and no spine), they would do terrible terrible damage - they were efficient in small numbers and forced an answer from the zerg - last but not least, they represented a very little investment and terrans didnt feel all-in when using them Now, the version of SH the op wants would deal more damage to buildings and units, but works in the same way: -little investment -force a preparation or big damage will be dealt -not alliny, either because it dont cost so much or because they could be used for something else after the pressure was applied (controlling a lane of attack,...) Now, please, op, explain me why the lurker wouldn't be ideal here? Some in the post left and right said the lurker would be the solution but I dont think you answered them? My bad if I missed your post. If lurkers could attack buildings, you would need detection + air units to take them out without suffering terrible losses, even if there were only 4 or 5 of them. It would be interesting to see that Zerg would have the choice to add anti-air and detection himself to turn the locust pressure into a game ending leapfroging attack but would not be forced to do so. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
Hows about making it spit some kind of acid missile, much like the orc's demolisher in warcraft3, and the missile is dodge-able. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
 It is also very strong when doing a doom drop in a terran base. Once the terran cleaned the doom drop, he still has locust spawning everywhere in his bases, and it's soo annoying for him | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
As toss when zerg manages to set up multiple swarmhosts outside my base without me having collossi I am dead, storm does not help because the energy is gone too quickly unless you can straight up break the contain. Forcefields don't help. But as zerg if I try it and fail I am almost certainly dead. The whole thing feels very weird. Especially since the swarmhost does not help with any unit composition nor can it as you mentioned be used in low numbers. You can do mass swarmhost supported with infestor/hydra which will negate all air counter and becomes almost unbreakable without storm and collossi. | ||
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ScoobySnacks
United States19 Posts
On December 16 2012 22:54 Natalya wrote: Now, please, op, explain me why the lurker wouldn't be ideal here? I think re-introducing the Lurker would be a fantastic solution, and would probably fulfill the Swarm Host's intended role better than the Swarm Host ever could. So why haven't I suggested replacing the Swarm Host with the Lurker? Well, I'm not sure how realistic that type of solution is. I'm trying to draw attention to this important subject, and to start a conversation on how we can make some design improvements to the unit before the HOTS release date. I am not necessarily pushing for the most optimal solution (Lurker?), but rather pushing for Blizzard to recognize the current flaws of the unit design and to make the changes they feel is most appropriate. I just don't think Blizzard is to keen on throwing the Lurker back into the game, even if it would function better. The Swarm Host sounds like it was Dustin's pet idea, with how "Zerg-y" he makes it sound in interviews. By scrapping his idea, and putting the Lurker back in, he may be hurting his own reputation as a Lead Game Designer, and his ability to introduce new ideas into an RTS. If other people feel the Lurker is the best solution to the issue, such as yourself, then I strongly encourage them to explain why in a well thought-out manner. I just don't think I can afford to take this stance, when I have started something of a movement over at Battle.net. If you stop over at the Blizz forums, and look in the Beta section, you will see a large number of new threads and posts popping up on the topic of Swarm Host design flaws. If Blizzard takes the time to read my rather lengthy post, and see that my thesis is "Swarm Host sucks, we want the Lurker," then I don't think they will take me too seriously. If they see that I have pointed out some serious design flaws of the unit and have explained why the unit can't be balanced in its current state, then perhaps they will take my thread more seriously and look into what changes they feel are most appropriate. You may not agree with my approach to this matter, and that is ok. But I hope you understand my reasoning and why I have taken the stance that I have. Thanks for reading the post, it is rather lengthy | ||
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