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Active: 34274 users

Why AI doesnt ForceField?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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( bush
Profile Joined April 2011
321 Posts
May 28 2011 20:59 GMT
#1
I was playing some games vs computer Toss and dunno why artificial intelligence do not forcefield.

I know AI can do a lot of amazing things (check the automaton2000 on youtube), but forcefields look so easy and AI dont use. Will be amazing see perfect FFs on insane AI level.


Can someone explain this?
oo
Glueburn
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States496 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 21:23:52
May 28 2011 21:21 GMT
#2
Forcefields look easy?
What!?

I can't imagine trying to code a unit to automatically forcefield around, or infront of a unit, and even if they did program that in, the forcefields probably wouldn't even be good.

The Automation is different in a sense that it moves back units that are getting ready to be hit by an attack, that is fairly simple, it is just something that is done in a split-second.

Can you imagine a behavior that if the force that is attacking the AI's units is bigger then what the AI has, it would automatically forcefield a ramp? hilarity would ensue, but I imagine there is a way to make the AI figure out that the force is moving UP the ramp... gah.. it just sounds so confusing.

But then again, I may be going at it wrong.
Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself. - Miles Davis
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
May 28 2011 21:35 GMT
#3
I've tried making an AI that does forcefields - its EXTREMELY hard - even harder than my mutalisk AI. It requires a lot of cluster algorithms to find centroids - an NP-hard problem.
griffith.583 (NA)
Datum
Profile Joined February 2011
United States371 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 21:55:20
May 28 2011 21:50 GMT
#4
Do we know if it's NP-incomplete at least? I'm not really thinking about the practicality of this, but as a purely theoretical experiment, would it be possible to set up powerful computer and marvel at perfect forcefields? This is assuming the algorithms do work out.
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
May 28 2011 22:09 GMT
#5
A good forcefield AI would be impressive. It's one of those things that is much more intuitive to human minds and can't be put into a simple algorithm.
Kuzmorgo
Profile Joined May 2009
Hungary1058 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 23:11:29
May 28 2011 23:11 GMT
#6
On May 29 2011 06:21 CampinSam wrote:
Forcefields look easy?
What!?

I can't imagine trying to code a unit to automatically forcefield around, or infront of a unit, and even if they did program that in, the forcefields probably wouldn't even be good.

The Automation is different in a sense that it moves back units that are getting ready to be hit by an attack, that is fairly simple, it is just something that is done in a split-second.

Can you imagine a behavior that if the force that is attacking the AI's units is bigger then what the AI has, it would automatically forcefield a ramp? hilarity would ensue, but I imagine there is a way to make the AI figure out that the force is moving UP the ramp... gah.. it just sounds so confusing.

But then again, I may be going at it wrong.


Actually ff-ing a ramp shouldn't be so hard. measuring if your army is better is easy (especially since insane has maphack ), and then if he is stronger, ff ramp when opponent is like 2 fields away from it.
The hard thing would be splitting the army. However, i don't think you should work on making it perfect. for example it could work like determining the opponents composition, and for example if opponent has roaches, which have 3 range, then ff 5 distance away from front units, in a semi circle. Or something like that. Of course it won't be epic innovative perfect forcefield, but it could work i think.
"No, whine not! Play, or play not! There is no whine."
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
May 28 2011 23:20 GMT
#7
Force fielding is one of the few micro tactics that actually requires some thought. Unlike blinking (which is just pretty obvious and there's only really 1 "correct" way to do it), or splitting marines (which yet again while it's one of the most difficult things to micro, it certainly doesn't take thought, it takes precision), force fielding actually requires the user to decide what they want to do with the force fields (i.e. split the army with a long wall of them, completely block the army by dropping them in front of it, stop the army from retreating by walling behind them so zealots can hit them, etc etc etc).

I would imagine programming an AI to make these decisions and correctly place walls of force fields from edge to edge of chokes would be ridiculously difficult.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
ClysmiC
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2192 Posts
May 28 2011 23:33 GMT
#8
I think FF'ing a ramp to split an army wouldn't be TOO hard to implement into AI. That being said, I have 0 experience with AI, so I could be totally wrong D:
Iranon
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States983 Posts
May 28 2011 23:49 GMT
#9
Programming routines to block a ramp should be fairly simple. Splitting an army seems like it would be easy, but only if you have an unlimited number of them... Figuring out the optimal time and place to drop 4-6 forcefields in response to a moving blob of enemy units, not so much.
dae
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1600 Posts
May 29 2011 00:00 GMT
#10
It would be interesting if you could program an ai to make perfect forcefield donuts (4 forcefields that can trap like 5-6 roachs in like one spot) - Something like if theres 6+ units there and i have 4 forcefields trap them.
VaultDweller
Profile Joined January 2011
Romania132 Posts
May 29 2011 08:42 GMT
#11
The Greentea AI uses forcefields and sometimes they are decent but mostly seem random.
"War is not about who's right- it's about who's left."
Siretu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
151 Posts
May 29 2011 09:13 GMT
#12
MTops EagleAI uses very good force fields if I remember correctly. I might be wrong but I know at least that the AI uses them. Search for EagleAI to try it. Make sure to try against a hard difficulty since otherwise it wont have the attention points to use it.
han_han
Profile Joined October 2010
United States205 Posts
May 29 2011 09:49 GMT
#13
Ramp forcefield shouldn't be too hard to incorporate right?
Brewed Tea
Profile Joined October 2010
United States124 Posts
May 29 2011 10:48 GMT
#14
this is how the terminator got started.
if it wasnt for mules terrans would have to 15 hatch every game.
Siretu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
151 Posts
May 29 2011 11:32 GMT
#15
On May 29 2011 19:48 Brewed Tea wrote:
this is how the terminator got started.


If the terminator had force fields the terminators would win the war easily.
Heraklitus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States553 Posts
May 29 2011 12:26 GMT
#16
On May 29 2011 19:48 Brewed Tea wrote:
this is how the terminator got started.


ROFL
leviathan20
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom193 Posts
May 29 2011 12:44 GMT
#17
On May 29 2011 20:32 Siretu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 19:48 Brewed Tea wrote:
this is how the terminator got started.


If the terminator had force fields the terminators would win the war easily.


Now I'm just going to imagine John Connor trying to run up a ramp that is being endlessly forcefielded whenever i watch that film.
"We better get that boy a waffle NOW or he gon' DIE!"
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
May 29 2011 13:47 GMT
#18
In the Kerrigan cut-scene you'd think that one would just shoot themselves rather than drop their guns to let the approaching Zerglings tear you apart.
Taek42
Profile Joined March 2011
United States7 Posts
May 29 2011 13:48 GMT
#19
I have some experience programming Ai. I think everybody can agree that there are specific situations in Which you can throw down an effective force field. Highlighting these situations for the Ai wouldn't be too hard.

Block ramp conditions:

- an enemy force is walking up the ramp
- at least (equasion based on enemy army and AI army) units have crossed the midpoint of the ramp

=> FF at the top of the ramp
=> FF at the bottom of the ramp


Guard against melee units:

- There lots of melee units
- You have more high-range units than they do
- Your units have a large attackable surface area

=> FFs around your units to minimize the surface area
=> Leave a gap in one location to allow your army to move forward after the battle


I don't know if existing AI is capable of looking at the surface area of units. This wouldn't be too hard if it doesn't, because Starcraft uses some form of surface area in determing how melee units can attack a building or a unit ball.


---Splitting Armies---

I considered several things while writing this, but it got really complicated and I never intended to spend a ton of time on this post. Ultimately I do believe that you could do it but it would take me a couple of hours to brainstorm the best ways.

I'll summarize some of the things to highlight though:

- unit ranges
- terrain
- position of your army with respect to enemy army
- position of both with respect to terrain
- clumps of units
- looking at unit clumps as pieces instead of as a whole

When looking at an enemy army, it could focus on all of the units that have less than X range, and see how they are dispersed or 'clumped.' (clumping is easily defined, and I think marine splitting AI already uses clumping). If clump of low range units exists near the edges of the enemy army (this could be determined using X and Y positioning analysis), then FFs could be dropped between these units and the units of the AI to push these units out of range.

It's a lot more comlicated that other types of FF AI but I think that you could turn this into code after a few hours of programming. I don't know how long it usually takes to write Starcraft AI or how long people usually spend programming, but my guess is that it would be worth the time.
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
May 29 2011 15:17 GMT
#20
On May 29 2011 22:47 BackHo wrote:
In the Kerrigan cut-scene you'd think that one would just shoot themselves rather than drop their guns to let the approaching Zerglings tear you apart.


She was out of bullet dude. :d
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
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