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On August 07 2015 02:39 mordek wrote:
Some of it has to be when things are new and you're young and innocent and it's just awesome. Hard to recreate that.
Nothing will ever replace or recreate the wonder I felt playing Vanilla my first time. It was one of the first computer games I really got into (and I remember having to argue with my parents to even let me play). Being lost in the Dwarven/Gnomish starting area, running around the snowy mountains, killing shit, taming a pet. And then I got to Loch Modan and was like "OMG THE WHOLE WORLD ISN'T SNOW COVERED"
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them.
I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre.
If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on).
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On August 07 2015 02:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:34 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:32 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I always felt the whole purpose of raiding was to incentivize the higher level of social gameplay that's really necessary to enjoy WoW at the endgame (I'm sort of channeling the Extra Credits sub-series on this lol). Raid finder just makes it so that a player doesn't have to progress past the "solo queue player" level of social gameplay to experience all the content, which just feels wrong to me for an MMORPG. I think the option should be there, though. Not everyone who plays an MMO is going to become socially involved, at least not quickly. If you don't have friends coming in, it can be daunting to find people to play with, even before LFG and LFR. I think having the ability to see the content without needing a guild is good. Pugging back in the day was much of the same, though occasionally you might meet a friend that you would continue with afterwards. As long as it doesn't take away from the people who actually put the time in to see the content the "normal/correct" way. I kind of agree with Yango. The people who get together frequently, learn coordination with each other, and succeed in raids should be the ones who get the furthest in the content and get rewarded accordingly. That may still be the case, I haven't raided in 5+ years, but it sounds like a lot of that content has opened up to the casual player. Which, now that I am on that side of the fence, I can understand why they did it and the appeal - I am looking forward to experiencing end game stuff without being super invested in the game.
Well, they do. But now it's not that those people see the most content, it's that those people beat the harder modes.
And I think that's... sorta fine. On one hand, yes it sucks that killing a big lore villain is no longer a big deal since you can pug it. on the other other hand, they spent hours, MONTHS on this content and it would suck for only like 15% of the playerbase to see it because it's too hard for them. How many people in BC actually saw Illidan? Even counting people getting carried by big endgame guilds, probably not a majority. Now, everyone that wanted to saw Deathwing. Everyone that wanted to fought Garrosh. The content isn't piecemeal, and there's still rewards for being better.
I think it's fine. It doesn't feel as epic, but it's a better system.
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On August 07 2015 02:23 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:21 TheYango wrote:How is competitive PvP in WoD? On August 07 2015 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:
As much as I dislike the reduction of the general server/"MM" community, having group finder is fucking amazing. I liked group finder for 5-mans, but raid finder is kind of where I drew the line. It's not. You get gear, You que, and then you smash at each other till something dies or the dampening gets too big for healers to keep up.
Its more about setting up complex cc chains to pop cds while using LoS/CC to stop the opponents cc chains . Then waiting for CDs to come up to go for a kill. Its incredibly complex for a game without skill shots. The new mastery system gives you decent flexibility to counter the opposing comp. Its very mana intensive to go for burst but not for defensive play.
or you play retardin and pop wings.
TBC sucked ass in arena, Wrath was aight.
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On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on).
Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2015 02:45 Eppa! wrote:
TBC sucked ass in arena, Wrath was aight.
I thought TBC arena was more engaging than Wrath's (and have no experience with anything beyond that). What makes you say this?
Admittedly, my arena experience was biased by playing only 1 class exclusively.
On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:
Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game.
See, I would maintain that if you take out the social aspects of the game, there are non-subscription games that execute on all these elements well enough to make WoW's $15 per month fee dubious, even if you don't agree that those games do it better outright.
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On August 07 2015 02:38 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:32 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I always felt the whole purpose of raiding was to incentivize the higher level of social gameplay that's really necessary to enjoy WoW at the endgame (I'm sort of channeling the Extra Credits sub-series on this lol). Raid finder just makes it so that a player doesn't have to progress past the "solo queue player" level of social gameplay to experience all the content, which just feels wrong to me for an MMORPG. This is basically the crux of my "part of the reason WoW is declining is the destruction of its social fabric/incentives" argument. Every gameplay element which forced players together is gone. By and large those gameplay elements sucked, were tedious, etc., but the social incentives they provided haven't been replaced. As such unless you're one of the tiny minority who want a challenge more difficult than LFR there's zero reason to give a crap about anyone else. WoW has been streamlined to such a degree that it's essentially single player for most people, and as a single player game WoW isn't all that interesting.
The issue with LFR is that the fights aren't complex enough compared to skill level of players (people are really good compared to before) to force guilds if you want progression.
On August 07 2015 02:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:45 Eppa! wrote:
TBC sucked ass in arena, Wrath was aight. I thought TBC arena was more engaging than Wrath's (and have no experience with anything beyond that). What makes you say this? Admittedly, my arena experience was biased by playing only 1 class exclusively.
Mana was the issue in TBC and not in the "I trade mana foor using key abilites way" but you often just wacked your face against the other team and once mana started becoming an issue the game started to actually become interesting.
It was a long time ago and I might be wrong but if I remember correctly wrath was faster and a lot less stupid RNG procs (windfury/mace stun procs.)
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On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on). Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game.
Yeah, but you can get practically all of that, sans PvP, by playing a single player game.
On August 07 2015 02:47 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:38 Seuss wrote:On August 07 2015 02:32 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I always felt the whole purpose of raiding was to incentivize the higher level of social gameplay that's really necessary to enjoy WoW at the endgame (I'm sort of channeling the Extra Credits sub-series on this lol). Raid finder just makes it so that a player doesn't have to progress past the "solo queue player" level of social gameplay to experience all the content, which just feels wrong to me for an MMORPG. This is basically the crux of my "part of the reason WoW is declining is the destruction of its social fabric/incentives" argument. Every gameplay element which forced players together is gone. By and large those gameplay elements sucked, were tedious, etc., but the social incentives they provided haven't been replaced. As such unless you're one of the tiny minority who want a challenge more difficult than LFR there's zero reason to give a crap about anyone else. WoW has been streamlined to such a degree that it's essentially single player for most people, and as a single player game WoW isn't all that interesting. The issue with LFR is that the fights aren't complex enough compared to skill level of players (people are really good compared to before) to force guilds if you want progression.
That's by design, and that's the problem. If LFR were hard enough to force people to join guilds nobody would LFR. The early iterations of the LFD tool were underused for that reason.
So Blizzard either makes LFR accessible and thus promotes anti-social gameplay, or makes it inaccessible and shut out casuals. This isn't a trivial problem to fix.
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On August 07 2015 02:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:45 Eppa! wrote:
TBC sucked ass in arena, Wrath was aight. I thought TBC arena was more engaging than Wrath's (and have no experience with anything beyond that). What makes you say this? Admittedly, my arena experience was biased by playing only 1 class exclusively.
Reasons Most people enjoyed Wrath Arenas:
1) No more RNG talents (GOD FUCKING MACESTUN WARRIOR/SHAMAN COMBO)
2) No hero/lust in arena. (Only really after Icecrown did this matter)
3) Healers actually healed things rather than just hoped to not get bopped.
4) CC had DR in the correct order with other DR (This led to things like RMP, and RLS being a thing)
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On August 07 2015 02:47 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:38 Seuss wrote:On August 07 2015 02:32 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I always felt the whole purpose of raiding was to incentivize the higher level of social gameplay that's really necessary to enjoy WoW at the endgame (I'm sort of channeling the Extra Credits sub-series on this lol). Raid finder just makes it so that a player doesn't have to progress past the "solo queue player" level of social gameplay to experience all the content, which just feels wrong to me for an MMORPG. This is basically the crux of my "part of the reason WoW is declining is the destruction of its social fabric/incentives" argument. Every gameplay element which forced players together is gone. By and large those gameplay elements sucked, were tedious, etc., but the social incentives they provided haven't been replaced. As such unless you're one of the tiny minority who want a challenge more difficult than LFR there's zero reason to give a crap about anyone else. WoW has been streamlined to such a degree that it's essentially single player for most people, and as a single player game WoW isn't all that interesting. The issue with LFR is that the fights aren't complex enough compared to skill level of players (people are really good compared to before) to force guilds if you want progression. Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:47 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:45 Eppa! wrote:
TBC sucked ass in arena, Wrath was aight. I thought TBC arena was more engaging than Wrath's (and have no experience with anything beyond that). What makes you say this? Admittedly, my arena experience was biased by playing only 1 class exclusively. Mana was the issue in TBC and not in the "I trade mana foor using key abilites way" but you often just wacked your face against the other team and once mana started becoming an issue the game started to actually become interesting. It was a long time ago and I might be wrong but if I remember correctly wrath was faster and a lot less stupid RNG procs (windfury/mace stun procs.)
WoW pvp is based on rng on every single expansion lol.It was faster in 2v2 which was in improvement on average though have to agree.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2015 02:47 Eppa! wrote:
Mana was the issue in TBC and not in the "I trade mana foor using key abilites way" but you often just wacked your face against the other team and once mana started becoming an issue the game started to actually become interesting.
It was a long time ago and I might be wrong but if I remember correctly wrath was faster and a lot less stupid RNG procs (windfury/mace stun procs.)
Ok, I'll just admit that I'm weird then because TBC arena being slow and mana management heavy were why I enjoyed it lol.
I didn't feel like WoW PvP being faster played to the strengths of its gameplay elements, because IMO the core gameplay doesn't have many mechanics that actually benefit from the game being fast.
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On August 07 2015 02:49 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on). Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game. Yeah, but you can get practically all of that, sans PvP, by playing a single player game.
Those games aren't WoW, is what I'm saying. You can get a big open world experience by playing Skyrim, but it's not Azeroth with Trolls and Gnomes and Tauren. You can get grouped "dungeons" by playing pickup coop games, but they're not WoW dungeons (even though the leveling ones are a joke nowadays). Whether it's nostalgia for Warcraft or just a love of the game and it's design, people keep coming back.
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On August 07 2015 02:42 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:39 mordek wrote:
Some of it has to be when things are new and you're young and innocent and it's just awesome. Hard to recreate that.
Nothing will ever replace or recreate the wonder I felt playing Vanilla my first time. It was one of the first computer games I really got into (and I remember having to argue with my parents to even let me play). Being lost in the Dwarven/Gnomish starting area, running around the snowy mountains, killing shit, taming a pet. And then I got to Loch Modan and was like "OMG THE WHOLE WORLD ISN'T SNOW COVERED"
The awe and terror we felt when we ran down the dirt path out of the troll/orc starting zone at level 1 to get mauled by monstrous level 5 scorpions was real.
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I always wanted to get into WoW but it always intimidated me in terms of trying to learn everything
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On August 07 2015 02:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I always wanted to get into WoW but it always intimidated me in terms of trying to learn everything
Now would be the best time to get into it then, I would think. They've really streamlined the leveling/skill curve process, imo. You select a specialization, as you level up you get more abilities, and every 15 levels you choose 1 of 3 talents.
Dungeons are very easy and mostly just tank'n'spank, getting a bit more complex as you level up, but dying is very rare in dungeons now. I'm not sure how the difficulty scales above 80, but from what I'm hearing here, it all stays pretty simple.
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On August 07 2015 02:49 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on). Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game. Yeah, but you can get practically all of that, sans PvP, by playing a single player game. Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:47 Eppa! wrote:On August 07 2015 02:38 Seuss wrote:On August 07 2015 02:32 TheYango wrote:
I mean, I always felt the whole purpose of raiding was to incentivize the higher level of social gameplay that's really necessary to enjoy WoW at the endgame (I'm sort of channeling the Extra Credits sub-series on this lol). Raid finder just makes it so that a player doesn't have to progress past the "solo queue player" level of social gameplay to experience all the content, which just feels wrong to me for an MMORPG. This is basically the crux of my "part of the reason WoW is declining is the destruction of its social fabric/incentives" argument. Every gameplay element which forced players together is gone. By and large those gameplay elements sucked, were tedious, etc., but the social incentives they provided haven't been replaced. As such unless you're one of the tiny minority who want a challenge more difficult than LFR there's zero reason to give a crap about anyone else. WoW has been streamlined to such a degree that it's essentially single player for most people, and as a single player game WoW isn't all that interesting. The issue with LFR is that the fights aren't complex enough compared to skill level of players (people are really good compared to before) to force guilds if you want progression. That's by design, and that's the problem. If LFR were hard enough to force people to join guilds nobody would LFR. The early iterations of the LFD tool were underused for that reason. So Blizzard either makes LFR accessible and thus promotes anti-social gameplay, or makes it inaccessible and shut out casuals. This isn't a trivial problem to fix.
I think the biggest issue is that pugs are not a lot slower than grouping. If you started forcing things such as CC to be used more it would be a lot faster to get dedicated group to farm stuff. But pulling 1-3 groups of mobs and aoeing them down isn't significantly faster for a dedicated group than a pug.
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On August 07 2015 02:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I always wanted to get into WoW but it always intimidated me in terms of trying to learn everything
I feel like it's way less daunting than LoL or DotA in terms of learning. There's a much smoother curve as you level, while a MOBA is just kinda like "hey welcome to the game here's all this shit don't die".
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On August 07 2015 02:53 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:49 Seuss wrote:On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on). Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game. Yeah, but you can get practically all of that, sans PvP, by playing a single player game. Those games aren't WoW, is what I'm saying. You can get a big open world experience by playing Skyrim, but it's not Azeroth with Trolls and Gnomes and Tauren. You can get grouped "dungeons" by playing pickup coop games, but they're not WoW dungeons (even though the leveling ones are a joke nowadays). Whether it's nostalgia for Warcraft or just a love of the game and it's design, people keep coming back.
People keep coming back, but they aren't staying. WoW spiked to 10.2 million for WoD powered by that nostalgia, but in half a year plummeted down to 5.6 million.
Part of that is TheYango's point, part if it is mine, and there are other factors, but while some players obviously are hanging around because they like Jamaican trolls it's clearly not as many people as it used to be.
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah if there's one thing WoW (and MMOs in general) really got down over the years, it's managing the difficulty curve.
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On August 07 2015 03:01 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2015 02:53 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:49 Seuss wrote:On August 07 2015 02:46 Requizen wrote:On August 07 2015 02:43 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2015 02:40 Requizen wrote:
I somewhat agree, but at the same time, considering that MMOs aren't the powerhouse they were before the MOBA boom, they want to include as many people as possible. Games today are built on "jump in, jump out, play whenever", and for some people, they just don't have time to be social when they game. If you want those people to play (and sub), you need to accommodate them at least a little bit.
I prefer to play with friends, to be clear. I only resubbed when I knew my IRL buddies were playing again, and fell out when they just started raiding and I had no time to go with them. I don't see the draw of paying $15 a month for a subscription MMO if not for the social engagement that can't be emulated by any other genre. If I want a jump in, jump out play experience, there's simply better games to play than single-player WoW that don't cost $15 a month (hell, there's one that's free to play that this entire site is based on). Some people like WoW. Some people like the leveling, the PvP, the world, exploring, doing dungeons, completing quests, trying out new characters, classes, and races. Not everyone is looking for the "most engaging and top of the line" game. Yeah, but you can get practically all of that, sans PvP, by playing a single player game. Those games aren't WoW, is what I'm saying. You can get a big open world experience by playing Skyrim, but it's not Azeroth with Trolls and Gnomes and Tauren. You can get grouped "dungeons" by playing pickup coop games, but they're not WoW dungeons (even though the leveling ones are a joke nowadays). Whether it's nostalgia for Warcraft or just a love of the game and it's design, people keep coming back. People keep coming back, but they aren't staying. WoW spiked to 10.2 million for WoD powered by that nostalgia, but in half a year plummeted down to 5.6 million. Part of that is TheYango's point, part if it is mine, and there are other factors, but while some players obviously are hanging around because they like Jamaican trolls it's clearly not as many people as it used to be.
Well I think WoD's dropping numbers weren't because people didn't like WoW, I think it was because it was a pretty sub-par expansion overall.
I mean yes, for a lot of people (probably a majority), my points aren't 100% true. But I think there are a lot of people that just play WoW because they love WoW.
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