On July 28 2015 10:25 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: How the hell did this come up talking about a K pop video? I think you're reading way way too much into this
On July 28 2015 10:19 suicideyear wrote: yeah who's watching TI5
sonneiko is a beast
I am although I have no idea what I'm watching, I miss the noob stream.
Just hop on TS and ask the people there wtf is going on. They all friendly.
Also human I love ya duder but it sounds like you are super bummed, in all seriousness I hope ya feel better.
I might do that later. for now I have my computer hooked up to a tv in a different room and am too lazy to install TS on my laptop
On July 28 2015 06:12 Sonnington wrote: Hello Venus has done it again. They've put out a semicontroversial new video that everyone seems to be talking about. Their message is quite simplistic to point of nearly being existential in nature. Even so, it's worthy of deep thought and debate. While the song title 'I'm Ill' is actually being used in an ironic way as they are healthy and happy go lucky pretty young ladies. Along with being a group, Hello Venus' statement to outward beauty is quite to the contrary to Meghan Trainor. Their dancing is also quite a bit better than Trainor's, but admittedly easily subpar to where a girl group's choreography should be.
Wait its ironic? I thought the whole point of the lyrics is living a vapid lifestyle is self destructive.
Who's living a vapid lifestyle? They're quite talented musicians that work hard at their craft.
It's Kpop there are teams of people pushing out hit songs. They have never been more than loosely connected to the actual artists. It's using the decently common trope of partying is and looks are just an escape.
Edit: Did scip get his body pillow and what was it?
Are you trying to say singers aren't musicians or just that they're unimportant?
As someone who's worked in sales for many different types of businesses. I can assure you, when I dress in nice clothing, gel my hair properly, smell nice, with a clean cut face people will treat me more positively, which feels good. Conversely, on the weekends, when I don't shave and throw on an old black ripped up hoodie from high school with ghetto writing on the front. I'll go into a super market or store and I can easily tell a difference in the way people treat me and look at me which isn't pleasant.
People might say it's wrong to judge others due to their looks, but it's not simply superficial. People who take care of themselves care about themselves and the people around them more. Conversely, if you're not showing that you take care of yourself and wear thuggish clothing why should anyone believe that you care about them?
Maybe because, logically speaking, putting on a sweatshirt doesn't makes you a less caring person?
Yes, people aren't logical. Stereotypes exist because, at best, they are "useful" and as far as I can tell we'll never be rid of them and we might not even be able to fully live without them. At their worst though they create the divide between who's is worthy of affection and who isn't based on stuff like skin color, sexual orientation, or wealth (since wealth definitely affects your ability to present yourself).
So, as the observee, you don't want to put stumbling blocks in front of other people so that they can't understand you or won't listen. That would be impractical. But that doesn't justify you, as the observer, making the same mistake.
Fair points to make. Like you said, judging someone off of looks is expedient to quickly determine who is worthy of time and who isn't. While, I agree with you that it can be improper in practice, it's something that's nearly impossible to unlearn. The same way peacocks fluff up their feathers in order to find a mate we use clothing and our physical appearance to attract people of similar tastes and lifestyles.
I don't agree that wealth is an issue though. You can find anything at the thrift store for low-low prices. As far as sexual orientation goes I think, over time, the idea has become less scary. Again, it low minority practice homosexuality or bisexuality and that could scare people. Over time though, they've proven they're no different than anyone else outside of one sexual proclivity. The level of tolerance and understanding about sexual orientation in the last 20-30 years has improved staggeringly fast. Likely due in part by gay celebrities and the internet. As far as race goes, suffice it to say, I feel it typically follows a similar curve to LGBT community.
Some things that are nearly universal are traits like being fit and clothing choice. Especially clothing choice. Clothes throw up signals for people to interpret. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I wear my hoodie so I attract young people. I wear my 15 dollar suit to look successful and impressive. And that's really the message Hello Venus is trying to get across. That if you're hot you should have lots of fun and attract many people to you.
What I got from this is that you are almost certainly an able-bodied straight white cisperson and are very out of touch with what it's like to be other things. The extreme degree to which you're out of touch with these things shows your lack of education/knowledge/research in the politics of these things and relevant fields and ideas (sociology, cultural studies, gender studies, etc. // respectability politics, social constructivism, systemic oppression and social power, etc.). Your lack of knowledge in these fields perhaps explains why you seem disproportionately impressed with a not particularly deep or insightful message from a pop song.
I'm ok with interpreting the song that way, though.
Also not having a great day.
First off, Hello Venus is quite the controversial group. If you haven't heard current hot new joint 'I'm Ill' I encourage you to listen to it. Another excellent track with a similar message is 'Wiggle Wiggle'. For the record, I love techno pop with simple and existential lyrics like Kraftwerk and now this masterpiece from Hello Venus.
I'd like to point out, not once has this person actually discussed anything I've said. Everything said here has been an assumed personal attack. You know, I joined TL because I've always seen this forum as respectable and logically analytical. When I see posts like this it makes me sad on the inside.
Lets see if we can steer this into a productive conversation. Let me ask you, how do you think the Jews and Irish escaped oppression and discrimination? Do you think the LGBT community has not made staggering progress in the last 20-30 years?
On July 28 2015 10:25 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: How the hell did this come up talking about a K pop video? I think you're reading way way too much into this
On July 28 2015 10:19 suicideyear wrote: yeah who's watching TI5
sonneiko is a beast
I am although I have no idea what I'm watching, I miss the noob stream.
Just hop on TS and ask the people there wtf is going on. They all friendly.
Also human I love ya duder but it sounds like you are super bummed, in all seriousness I hope ya feel better.
Bleh I should be fine. Combination of everyday stress that comes with the positionality, and significant temporary stress regarding university advising. Basically I'm fulfilling my language requirement at a local community college instead of the university I'm at. Last year checked it all with the advisors at both institutions and they gave me the go-ahead. Completed the first of two years of language study. This year they're like "re-check it" and I have to middleperson between the two departments. Minor changes that should be in my favour, but they reveal that what I'm doing shouldn't have worked without these changes and that I shouldn't have been given the go-ahead last year. Also the changes are still in progress so I probably don't currently have the go-ahead. Also other minor problems that I'm still figuring out, which may add an additional year until I can escape academia. Being nearly free (last year, only 6 classes total / 3 per semester remaining) has been my only way to deal with how much I hate being there. Would quit immediately if I could. If an additional year gets added not sure what will do.
tl;dr dealing with bureaucratic crap that entails bad news
On July 28 2015 10:41 Sonnington wrote: I'd like to point out, not once has this person actually discussed anything I've said. Everything said here has been an assumed personal attack. You know, I joined TL because I've always seen this forum as respectable and logically analytical. When I see posts like this it makes me sad on the inside.
Lets see if we can steer this into a productive conversation. Let me ask you, how do you think the Jews and Irish escaped oppression and discrimination? Do you think the LGBT community has not made staggering progress in the last 20-30 years?
Yeah not gonna bother GL HF on your research though
edit: to clarify, I saying "no" because I don't have the time, energy, or care for it - not because I don't think you're worth it or anything of the sort.
On July 28 2015 10:25 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: How the hell did this come up talking about a K pop video? I think you're reading way way too much into this
On July 28 2015 10:19 suicideyear wrote: yeah who's watching TI5
sonneiko is a beast
I am although I have no idea what I'm watching, I miss the noob stream.
Just hop on TS and ask the people there wtf is going on. They all friendly.
Also human I love ya duder but it sounds like you are super bummed, in all seriousness I hope ya feel better.
Bleh I should be fine. Combination of everyday stress that comes with the positionality, and significant temporary stress regarding university advising. Basically I'm fulfilling my language requirement at a local community college instead of the university I'm at. Last year checked it all with the advisors at both institutions and they gave me the go-ahead. Completed the first of two years of language study. This year they're like "re-check it" and I have to middleperson between the two departments. Minor changes that should be in my favour, but they reveal that what I'm doing shouldn't have worked without these changes and that I shouldn't have been given the go-ahead last year. Also the changes are still in progress so I probably don't currently have the go-ahead. Also other minor problems that I'm still figuring out, which may add an additional year until I can escape academia. Being nearly free (last year, only 6 classes total / 3 per semester remaining) has been my only way to deal with how much I hate being there. Would quit immediately if I could. If an additional year gets added not sure what will do.
tl;dr dealing with bureaucratic crap that entails bad news
On July 28 2015 10:41 Sonnington wrote: I'd like to point out, not once has this person actually discussed anything I've said. Everything said here has been an assumed personal attack. You know, I joined TL because I've always seen this forum as respectable and logically analytical. When I see posts like this it makes me sad on the inside.
Lets see if we can steer this into a productive conversation. Let me ask you, how do you think the Jews and Irish escaped oppression and discrimination? Do you think the LGBT community has not made staggering progress in the last 20-30 years?
Yeah not gonna bother GL HF on your research though
edit: to clarify, I saying "no" because I don't have the time, energy, or care for it - not because I don't think you're worth it or anything of the sort.
Right, like the old saying goes, it's easier to attack the arguer than it is to attack the argument. How about we make the question easier. Give me one fact. Tell me how the LGBT community has lost ground in the last 20-30 years?
Dude I've been listening to Hello Venus since before you've heard of them and I've never heard of them being called a "controversial group". Also they don't write their own shit, it's just another Brave Brothers piece just like songs from AoA, Sistar, After School, and 4Minute. Are they controversial?
Also this whole thing is insanely stupid. The only arguments in kpop should be best girl and fandom fights. There's nothing existential about this genre whatsoever.
On July 28 2015 10:25 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: How the hell did this come up talking about a K pop video? I think you're reading way way too much into this
On July 28 2015 10:19 suicideyear wrote: yeah who's watching TI5
sonneiko is a beast
I am although I have no idea what I'm watching, I miss the noob stream.
Just hop on TS and ask the people there wtf is going on. They all friendly.
Also human I love ya duder but it sounds like you are super bummed, in all seriousness I hope ya feel better.
Bleh I should be fine. Combination of everyday stress that comes with the positionality, and significant temporary stress regarding university advising. Basically I'm fulfilling my language requirement at a local community college instead of the university I'm at. Last year checked it all with the advisors at both institutions and they gave me the go-ahead. Completed the first of two years of language study. This year they're like "re-check it" and I have to middleperson between the two departments. Minor changes that should be in my favour, but they reveal that what I'm doing shouldn't have worked without these changes and that I shouldn't have been given the go-ahead last year. Also the changes are still in progress so I probably don't currently have the go-ahead. Also other minor problems that I'm still figuring out, which may add an additional year until I can escape academia. Being nearly free (last year, only 6 classes total / 3 per semester remaining) has been my only way to deal with how much I hate being there. Would quit immediately if I could. If an additional year gets added not sure what will do.
tl;dr dealing with bureaucratic crap that entails bad news
On July 28 2015 10:41 Sonnington wrote: I'd like to point out, not once has this person actually discussed anything I've said. Everything said here has been an assumed personal attack. You know, I joined TL because I've always seen this forum as respectable and logically analytical. When I see posts like this it makes me sad on the inside.
Lets see if we can steer this into a productive conversation. Let me ask you, how do you think the Jews and Irish escaped oppression and discrimination? Do you think the LGBT community has not made staggering progress in the last 20-30 years?
Yeah not gonna bother GL HF on your research though
edit: to clarify, I saying "no" because I don't have the time, energy, or care for it - not because I don't think you're worth it or anything of the sort.
Right, like the old saying goes, it's easier to attack the arguer than it is to attack the argument. How about we make the question easier. Give me one fact. Tell me how the LGBT community has lost ground in the last 20-30 years?
Well I'm not attacking you and I'm not gonna put much time or effort in here, but here's some basic quick stuff to get you started.
There isn't a singular homogenous LGBT community. Even if we limit the scale to, say, modern day America, this homogenization erases the divides and degree of sepratation internal to many 'LGBT communities'. For example, while there certainly are very general LGBT communities that are simply LGBT communities, there are also many intersectional LGBT/queer/otherwise-non-straight communities. It would be difficult to argue, for example, that queer Muslim communities are better off in post-9/11 America than they were in the preceding years. You may posit that "globally and in general LGBT communities are better off on average" or something of the sort, which is a reasonable claim, but one that is often and has historically been used to invisibilize damage to the least privileged people in a broad group. You should research the term intersectionality*. For context and an example, you may want to look into how third wave feminism has incorporated intersectionality in movements such as queer feminism or critical race feminism as critiques of the very homogenizing first and second waves of feminism in America.
*To clarify, again, I think you should research this not because I think you're unintelligent or anything of the sort, but because it's the answer / response to the things that you're asking and saying. It has a long and very well documented history of being this answer/response. You can find it on google. There is no shortage of easy-access resources or academic readings on this subject or the questions you're asking. This conversation has happened many times in the past and you can find it elsewhere if you're willing to put in the work instead of having me do it for you.
seems cool. I can't find a way to show stats and stuff without also showing chat (unless I want to make the stats thing take up the entire screen.
Arrow in the top right hides chat.
I saw that but when I do that the graph and stuff below the video disappears as well unless you want to push the button and have it cover the screen.
The interface scales to the size of your browser window, so just play with the width and zoom level in your browser and you should get something that works for you.
seems cool. I can't find a way to show stats and stuff without also showing chat (unless I want to make the stats thing take up the entire screen.
Arrow in the top right hides chat.
I saw that but when I do that the graph and stuff below the video disappears as well unless you want to push the button and have it cover the screen.
The interface scales to the size of your browser window, so just play with the width and zoom level in your browser and you should get something that works for you.
On July 28 2015 10:25 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: How the hell did this come up talking about a K pop video? I think you're reading way way too much into this
On July 28 2015 10:19 suicideyear wrote: yeah who's watching TI5
sonneiko is a beast
I am although I have no idea what I'm watching, I miss the noob stream.
Just hop on TS and ask the people there wtf is going on. They all friendly.
Also human I love ya duder but it sounds like you are super bummed, in all seriousness I hope ya feel better.
Bleh I should be fine. Combination of everyday stress that comes with the positionality, and significant temporary stress regarding university advising. Basically I'm fulfilling my language requirement at a local community college instead of the university I'm at. Last year checked it all with the advisors at both institutions and they gave me the go-ahead. Completed the first of two years of language study. This year they're like "re-check it" and I have to middleperson between the two departments. Minor changes that should be in my favour, but they reveal that what I'm doing shouldn't have worked without these changes and that I shouldn't have been given the go-ahead last year. Also the changes are still in progress so I probably don't currently have the go-ahead. Also other minor problems that I'm still figuring out, which may add an additional year until I can escape academia. Being nearly free (last year, only 6 classes total / 3 per semester remaining) has been my only way to deal with how much I hate being there. Would quit immediately if I could. If an additional year gets added not sure what will do.
tl;dr dealing with bureaucratic crap that entails bad news
On July 28 2015 10:41 Sonnington wrote: I'd like to point out, not once has this person actually discussed anything I've said. Everything said here has been an assumed personal attack. You know, I joined TL because I've always seen this forum as respectable and logically analytical. When I see posts like this it makes me sad on the inside.
Lets see if we can steer this into a productive conversation. Let me ask you, how do you think the Jews and Irish escaped oppression and discrimination? Do you think the LGBT community has not made staggering progress in the last 20-30 years?
Yeah not gonna bother GL HF on your research though
edit: to clarify, I saying "no" because I don't have the time, energy, or care for it - not because I don't think you're worth it or anything of the sort.
Right, like the old saying goes, it's easier to attack the arguer than it is to attack the argument. How about we make the question easier. Give me one fact. Tell me how the LGBT community has lost ground in the last 20-30 years?
Well I'm not attacking you and I'm not gonna put much time or effort in here, but here's some basic quick stuff to get you started.
There isn't a singular homogenous LGBT community. Even if we limit the scale to, say, modern day America, this homogenization erases the divides and degree of sepratation internal to many 'LGBT communities'. For example, while there certainly are very general LGBT communities that are simply LGBT communities, there are also many intersectional LGBT/queer/otherwise-non-straight communities. It would be difficult to argue, for example, that queer Muslim communities are better off in post-9/11 America than they were in the preceding years. You may posit that "globally and in general LGBT communities are better off on average" or something of the sort, which is a reasonable claim, but one that is often and has historically been used to invisibilize damage to the least privileged people in a broad group. You should research the term intersectionality*. For context and an example, you may want to look into how third wave feminism has incorporated intersectionality in movements such as queer feminism or critical race feminism as critiques of the very homogenizing first and second waves of feminism in America.
*To clarify, again, I think you should research this not because I think you're unintelligent or anything of the sort, but because it's the answer / response to the things that you're asking and saying. It has a long and very well documented history of being this answer/response. You can find it on google. There is no shortage of easy-access resources or academic readings on this subject or the questions you're asking. This conversation has happened many times in the past and you can find it elsewhere if you're willing to put in the work instead of having me do it for you.
I guess you're not being coarse enough to constitute a personal attack. It's just a lot of ad hominem in general and I hate using that word. Anyway...
You're not using the term LGBT community properly as I've shown above. You're using a lot of mental gymnastics to try to prove your point right though. The only fact you've used to say the LGBT community has lost ground was by saying LGBT Muslims are more discriminated against now than before 9-11. How am I supposed to take that seriously? That's an irrational statement. Being Muslim and a part of the LGBT community aren't mutually exclusive. They're more discriminated against because they're Muslim after 9-11, not because they're LGBT after 9-11.
It makes me ask the question, do you dislike Hello Venus because they're pretty young ladies who are proud of being pretty young ladies?
@Requizen You definitely have listened to them for longer and it is another amazing song written by the talented Brave Brothers. Lets be real here, Hello Venus has done a hell of a job with the song. Hottest summer joint of 2015, easy.
The song is existential at it's core. It deals with the details of existing as a pretty young lady in twenty-first century South Korea. In a way, I also see a bit of objectivism too. Ayn Rand was always a proponent of being proud of your accomplishments or positive personal traits. You should never try to hide your strengths for fear of other people's insecurities.
Bonus: After we're done talking about the philosophic implications of Hello Venus we can all talk about how Nara is a goddess and the prettiest woman alive.
EPT
