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Also, maybe it could be useful to split the GOAT debate into 2 categories:
BOAT vs GOAT
Best of all time: pure skill level I think it’s Serral
Greatest of all time: purely based on achievements
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On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
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On June 03 2024 06:51 Captain Peabody wrote:
I will say, shout out and respect to Oliveira for proving against all the naysayers that he's still an absolutely world-class player when it counts. and for giving Serral the hardest time of anyone.
There should be a "Giving Serral the hardest time" trophy from now on.
So other players have a real chance to win a trophy
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For Maru to improve, he first has to stop talking about balance... the last interview that crank did... he complained that the infestor. He didn't even talk about the other 3 games he lost where his selection of Builds was not the best (3 CC against scouted 2 base Zerg?? What is that?... IEM finals) if he is not able to see his mistakes he will never be able to beat him
On the other hand, Serral plays totally different against Maru... if we compare how he played with Oli... it is another world... Serral plays the Player in front of him... Maru only does what works best for him and hopes that his opponent Lets him . with lack of impressive scout. If it is for preparation ufff Serral gave a master class on the use of different Builds, micro and macro. Maru looked scared and completely lost, because he didn't know what could come from Serral.
please Maru... we don't want another final like this... TT
In my opinion
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On June 03 2024 08:50 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility. Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
I definitely do not think that this is the case right now. But maybe if he continues to dominate for another year or something. Not sure
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On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude 
Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
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On June 03 2024 08:50 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility. Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
For me it has become an addiction...
If he doesnt win anymore, i go through withdrawl. The world simply doesnt seem right no more.
It only gets to normal when he wins again. Idont want him to win... I NEED him to win.
Happily, it is a certainty.
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On June 03 2024 08:54 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:50 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility. Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority. For me it has become an addiction... If he doesnt win anymore, i go through withdrawl. The world simply doesnt seem right no more. It only gets to normal when he wins again. Idont want him to win... I NEED him to win. Happily, it is a certainty.
seek professional help
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On June 03 2024 08:53 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game (1/3? forget which one - the late game one) and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
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On June 03 2024 08:53 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close
What? The games where Serral won were the close ones. He had to fight hard with every thing he had to grind out those three very close wins. It's the 2 games Oli won with 8rax that's the easy ones.
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On June 03 2024 08:56 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:53 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5
Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On June 03 2024 08:25 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 05:24 Perceivere wrote:On June 03 2024 05:08 tigera6 wrote:On June 03 2024 05:06 Brutaxilos wrote:
I feel like Maru's going to do worse against Serral than Oliveira did Every single build that Oliv did, Maru already showed that he could do it better, but that is assuming hes not dying to a Roach all-in. Well, that first 8 rax was pretty much picture-perfect. It was Clem-level of terran perfection. Maru hasn't quite matched that, tbh. What Maru is better at is lategame. Really shows Oli has been practicing very hard. Oh, how well my comment aged. Maru indeed couldn't match Oli/Clem's early-mid games. Or, at least, he didn't even try to; he was trying so hard to survive until lategame, where it is his bread and butter. Quick correction of the quoted comment: I meant that Maru's lategame is better than Oli's, not better than Clem's; they're roughly equal in that aspect.
Maru can do it obviously, seen it enough times but he’s never really been a relentless, brutal pushing machine like Inno in his peak, or hugely ballsy in that regard like a Byun. Plus, whatever the reason the odd pocket build he’ll whip out and frequently kill every other Zerg just rarely seems to work versus Serral
It feels you have to do that and really take risks, or alternatively go mental like Clem where he’s absolutely everywhere. But nobody but Clem can play that particular style as well, and despite having a relatively good record he’s got a losing one versus Serral as well.
It feels to me that you have to do things you’re not really ‘supposed’ to do to get an edge. If you play ‘properly’ Serral’s StarCraft brain can make the requisite calculations and hold, even if it’s tight.
Oliver went balls to the wall at times running across creep to get into Serral that little bit quicker, and he had some reward but it’s high risk stuff indeed.
It feels we’re in some kind of rock/paper/scissors scenario where other top Zergs can’t stop Maru getting to late game, or break him when he gets there, but Maru can’t stop Serral killing him before he can get into that stage, while other Terrans have (slightly) more joy against Serral by focusing less hardcore on getting to late game, but are themselves weaker relatively versus other top Zergs.
Maru still looks untouchable against non-Serral Zergs when he’s on it, more bulletproof by far than even a Clem despite his having more joy against Serral
Probably a bunch of stylistic quirks all in action.
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On June 03 2024 08:50 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility. Each time Serral is playing, the viewercount for the stream sharply rises. When he's not playing, it sharply falls. When he's knocked out of the tournament, the viewercount falls off a cliff. Every youtube-uploaded video where Serral is featured gets a massive view bump over all other players. I think Serral has the opposite effect on the game, overall. Of course, there's the sad fanboys who will tune out while Serral's playing, because they can't stand to see him dominate again, but they're in the small minority.
Yep.
I also think Serral's relative absence for prolonged periods makes him even more of a crowd puller. You can see Dark, herO, Clem, and so on every week in the cups as well as in all other tournaments there are. Serral, in contrast, goes underground for months, playing a single forgettable series in WTL, only to turn up and dominate the rest of the scene in the biggest tournament since his last appearance. The bulk of the viewership loves such stories.
On June 03 2024 08:58 WombaT wrote:
non-Serral Zergs
The real fourth race.
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On June 03 2024 08:39 ZAWGURN wrote:
I do wonder if a continued Serral dominance could hurt the game, if it might become boring to watch the same person win every tournament. Of course Serral is the best and he deserves it, I just wonder if it’s a possibility.
Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of watching him win. :/
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Northern Ireland27305 Posts
On June 03 2024 08:53 Gantz023 wrote:
For Maru to improve, he first has to stop talking about balance... the last interview that crank did... he complained that the infestor. He didn't even talk about the other 3 games he lost where his selection of Builds was not the best (3 CC against scouted 2 base Zerg?? What is that?... IEM finals) if he is not able to see his mistakes he will never be able to beat him
On the other hand, Serral plays totally different against Maru... if we compare how he played with Oli... it is another world... Serral plays the Player in front of him... Maru only does what works best for him and hopes that his opponent Lets him . with lack of impressive scout. If it is for preparation ufff Serral gave a master class on the use of different Builds, micro and macro. Maru looked scared and completely lost, because he didn't know what could come from Serral.
please Maru... we don't want another final like this... TT
In my opinion
Maru knows what he’s doing, if anything he’s stepped up a level in this regard in recent years, which I think does go overlooked just because Serral has his number lately.
He’s been ridiculously consistent versus the rest of the field, mixes it up quite a lot for opponents and whatnot.
Case in point recent GSLs where Stats and Classic were having joy with carrier builds so he just went and killed them, but played totally differently against a player like herO
I just think it’s a combo of Serral having no real exploitable weaknesses, and being just as good as Maru. He can’t really get big edges through prep, and he can’t just go and outplay Serral and make that work. And he can do 1 or both of those against basically every other player in the world
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NBA was at its peak when MJ plays. Ironically, having a GOAT dominating the scene is good for the sports' popularity, it's easier for casuals to come in and root for the obvious best player, it's also fun to root for the mighty to fall to underdogs, the storylines just write themselves. If you think SC2 is "dead game" right now, I can assure you it'd be only more dead if Serral's miraculous rise in 2018 didn't happen.
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On June 03 2024 08:58 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:56 Pandain wrote:On June 03 2024 08:53 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5 Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
So from your comments we can take it that you neither watched Serral/Oliveira nor the Grand Finals? Got it.
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On June 03 2024 08:58 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 08:56 Pandain wrote:On June 03 2024 08:53 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:39 Balnazza wrote:On June 03 2024 08:33 SHODAN wrote:On June 03 2024 08:14 LukaMav wrote:On June 03 2024 08:04 SHODAN wrote:
the GOAT discussion is cringe. Serral fanboys are cringe. Mizenhauer is cringe. Artosis is cringe. the special favourite trophies are cringe. the foreigner circlejerk is cringe. the Korea / GSL supremacy is cringe
it's plainly obvious that zerg macro is busted, that protoss can't keep up at the highest level, and that playing terran breaks your wrists - but the whole discussion gets polluted by emotional arguments about *your favourite player is the GOAT* or which tournaments matter. no hate towards Serral, just disappointment with the game. it's stupid that zerg can consistently produce enough units to A-move into a world-class opponent - all things being equal, with passive early / early-mid game - and just steamroll them with very little effort and even less counterplay. terran is supposed to be the timing attack race - but zerg has equally strong timing attacks in that matchup, plus a bunch of other major advantages. all 3 races should be more equally taxing and rewarding when it comes to both micro and macro. asymmetric balance should not = asymmetric skill
people have tuned out because SC2 gives us boring finals back-to-back-to-back, for years on end. balance council need to be less content about tip-toeing around the fundamental issues that are holding back competitive SC2 Maru is just good at dragging games to cancer boring late game situations in that case, why is Maru even trying to push Serral or hit timings before he has his boring lategame ultimate ghost army? surely he can just sit back, turtle and drag it out right? do you think Maru threw those games on purpose? Makes you wonder how Oliveira managed to produce a pretty close 2-3 against Serral through all that Zerg OPness. So you are basically saying Maru just sucks? That's cringe dude Oliveira caught Serral with his pants down with a 3-base 8 raxx allin, then another 3-base 8 raxx allin. the other games weren't even close Kind of just objectively wrong - Oliveira was winning for a large part of Game 2 and was razor-sharp close to breaking Serral game 5 Oliveira objectively won game 2. did you even watch the games lol
See my edit but you could have figured it out from the context
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On June 03 2024 05:18 Kitai wrote:
I think Maru is gonna have a better time against Serral with this map pool than the WC finals. He also seems really on form this time around; his games against an on-form herO yesterday were super impressive.
Oof, just got off work, looks like I was super wrong
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So the two best players of the tournament were Serral and Serral's practice partner. Makes me wonder how many times Oliveira 8-raxed Serral during practice.
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EPT
