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Elentos
55594 Posts
On July 13 2020 03:19 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:14 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 03:12 Lexender wrote:
I can forsee Clem pulling a Neeb and switching races.
Meanwhile it just seems foreign Ts just are a meme, its not even about Z considering NA protoss. Terran is a race just for the koreans. A meme taking 3rd and 4th place in the regional finals that was also one map away from being in the finals. I've seen Special do finals a few times, I've followed the scene for 10 years, I just have no hope for a terran champion at this point, hopefully they pull a uThermal but I highly doubt we'll have a T champion in 2020. Its just my pessism talking.
If you can't see the quality of play Clem is putting out your pessimism is getting in the way.
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On July 13 2020 03:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:04 Bagration wrote:
One of my wish lists for SC2 is a nerf to the queen - it feels like the early game has gotten pretty stale. At the pro level, the Zerg is always able to defend early pressure, and it feels too low stake. You can nerf the bunker and shield batteries too.
The map pool is already much different from 2010, favoring macro games with longer rush distances. Aah yes. Let's go back to the days of 6 hellions killing 15 drones every game. Fun times. Great gameplay.
That was exciting though - remember how much hype the Slayers blue-flame hellion generated back at MLG Anaheim in 2011? There were so many of us who were in awe in how versatile Boxer and his gang made hellions during their tournament run.
Plus, 6 hellions (600 min) killing 15 drones (750 min) isn't even that unreasonable of a mineral trade
Generally speaking, I don't mind games ending fast - while a 30 min long macro game is a lot more enjoyable than a 5 min one base rush, I think we've forced the meta and map pool to favor macro games too much, so much that the early game feels like a warm-up period
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On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out.
Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of?
The highest level of ZvZ might probably be Serral vs a Rogue in good shape, but Serral vs Reynor is better than any ZvZ matchup the korean scene alone could produce.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On July 13 2020 03:21 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 13 2020 03:04 Bagration wrote:
One of my wish lists for SC2 is a nerf to the queen - it feels like the early game has gotten pretty stale. At the pro level, the Zerg is always able to defend early pressure, and it feels too low stake. You can nerf the bunker and shield batteries too.
The map pool is already much different from 2010, favoring macro games with longer rush distances. Aah yes. Let's go back to the days of 6 hellions killing 15 drones every game. Fun times. Great gameplay. That was exciting though - remember how much hype the Slayers blue-flame hellion generated back at MLG Anaheim in 2011? There were so many of us who were in awe in how versatile Boxer and his gang made hellions during their tournament run. Plus, 6 hellions (600 min) killing 15 drones (750 min) isn't even that unreasonable of a mineral trade
It's not just about the minerals. It's 15 larvae worth of production. If you lose 15 drones in the early game you are unreasonably behind.
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On July 13 2020 03:21 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 13 2020 03:04 Bagration wrote:
One of my wish lists for SC2 is a nerf to the queen - it feels like the early game has gotten pretty stale. At the pro level, the Zerg is always able to defend early pressure, and it feels too low stake. You can nerf the bunker and shield batteries too.
The map pool is already much different from 2010, favoring macro games with longer rush distances. Aah yes. Let's go back to the days of 6 hellions killing 15 drones every game. Fun times. Great gameplay. That was exciting though - remember how much hype the Slayers blue-flame hellion generated back at MLG Anaheim in 2011? There were so many of us who were in awe in how versatile Boxer and his gang made hellions during their tournament run. Plus, 6 hellions (600 min) killing 15 drones (750 min) isn't even that unreasonable of a mineral trade
Thats why you dont look at it pure mineral wise. A lot of the time killing like 8 drones is good enough for 4 hellions. Mineral wise it isnt, but as you have been on this site for a long time and must be a big sc2 fan you must know why its still a good trade to kill 15 drones for 6 hellions right..?
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On July 13 2020 03:18 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:17 Calliope wrote:On July 13 2020 03:12 Lexender wrote:
I can forsee Clem pulling a Neeb and switching races.
Meanwhile it just seems foreign Ts just are a meme, its not even about Z considering NA protoss. Terran is a race just for the koreans. TLO used to switch races too, chasing the meta. It would actually be nice to see Clem playing Z, but switching to P now would probably be suicide. Well, he doesn't mean much, but he is around 6.4k as toss :p
and Reynor has high MMR P and T. The doom of P is that it requires less skill at the mid-high GM level (hence the abundance of P in the group stage) but that you reach a ceiling quite quickly so that very few P players seem to be able to compete with the very best Z and T. I'm pretty sure virtually every T and Z top contender could be 6.4k toss after a very short time of practice, but that none of them would actually improve their results by sticking to P
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On July 13 2020 03:21 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of?
Debatable because Dream is improving and looking strong so there are now actually 5 good Korean Terrans again 
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On July 13 2020 03:18 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:17 stilt wrote:On July 13 2020 03:15 Pandain wrote:On July 13 2020 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:10 Charoisaur wrote:On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem seems to be at that level too. Clem is a great prospect and probably has a bright future but I think serral and reynor are on a different level. Personally I don’t think Clem is as good as neeb special Scarlett yet I doubt any of Neeb special or scarlett would have gotten even top 4 if they played in the EU circuit. I feel like there are on big Gabe's level but a bit below the new eu trinity. I don't think Neeb, Special and Scarlett are actually on the same level as each other to begin with
Special is probably top 5 foreigner, but Scarlett might not even be top 10 anymore.
Probably something like
1. Serral
2. Reynor
3. Clem
4. Heromarine & Showtime & Special
Maybe take out showtime. I'm a huge showtime fan though
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On July 13 2020 03:24 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:21 Xain0n wrote:On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of? Debatable because Dream is improving and looking strong so there are now actually 5 good Korean Terrans again
Who are the 5 good ones?
Maru, Innovation, Ty, Dream (maybe) and ....
definitely not bunny or taeja haha
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On July 13 2020 03:20 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:19 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:14 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 03:12 Lexender wrote:
I can forsee Clem pulling a Neeb and switching races.
Meanwhile it just seems foreign Ts just are a meme, its not even about Z considering NA protoss. Terran is a race just for the koreans. A meme taking 3rd and 4th place in the regional finals that was also one map away from being in the finals. I've seen Special do finals a few times, I've followed the scene for 10 years, I just have no hope for a terran champion at this point, hopefully they pull a uThermal but I highly doubt we'll have a T champion in 2020. Its just my pessism talking. If you can't see the quality of play Clem is putting out your pessimism is getting in the way.
yeah it's quite obvious Clem has it. Serral and Reynor are absolutely devilishly good and beating them won't be easy but he'll get there - or someday benefit from, let's say, Showtime taking out Serral.
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On July 13 2020 03:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:18 stilt wrote:On July 13 2020 03:17 Calliope wrote:On July 13 2020 03:12 Lexender wrote:
I can forsee Clem pulling a Neeb and switching races.
Meanwhile it just seems foreign Ts just are a meme, its not even about Z considering NA protoss. Terran is a race just for the koreans. TLO used to switch races too, chasing the meta. It would actually be nice to see Clem playing Z, but switching to P now would probably be suicide. Well, he doesn't mean much, but he is around 6.4k as toss :p and Reynor has high MMR P and T. The doom of P is that it requires less skill at the mid-high GM level (hence the abundance of P in the group stage) but that you reach a ceiling quite quickly so that very few P players seem to be able to compete with the very best Z and T. I'm pretty sure virtually every T and Z top contender could be 6.4k toss after a very short time of practice, but that none of them would actually improve their results by sticking to P
Reynor has a high level toss, he pretty much never plays terran though and just proxys every game he played on twitch. It was about 6.2kish after a while. Wouldnt say its high level but for sure if he wanted to practice it, it could get higher. Hell he even beat elazer in a bo3 although you would expect his TvZ matchup to be his best for obvious reasons
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On July 13 2020 03:25 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:24 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 03:21 Xain0n wrote:On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of? Debatable because Dream is improving and looking strong so there are now actually 5 good Korean Terrans again Who are the 5 good ones? Maru, Innovation, Ty, Dream (maybe) and .... definitely not bunny or taeja haha
Forgetting the other GSL finalist is quality
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On July 13 2020 03:25 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:24 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 03:21 Xain0n wrote:On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of? Debatable because Dream is improving and looking strong so there are now actually 5 good Korean Terrans again Who are the 5 good ones? Maru, Innovation, Ty, Dream (maybe) and .... definitely not bunny or taeja haha
Cure
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Elentos
55594 Posts
I think something Clem needs in his play is a bit more trickery though. Terran success comes off the back of bamboozling opponents, not playing classy macro games.
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On July 13 2020 03:25 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:24 Elentos wrote:On July 13 2020 03:21 Xain0n wrote:On July 13 2020 03:09 BerserkSword wrote:On July 13 2020 03:07 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:06 NoS-Craig wrote:
bit of a let down down. I hope Serral vs Reynor is better. I was hoping Clem could at least take it to game 5. Its the same ZvZ finals we've had for about 2 years, theres nothing special about it at this point. I’d rather watch serral reynor than Clem vs Z Serral VS reynor is the highest level of Starcraft you can get in a foreign circuit. It’s like watching two top Koreans duke it out. Clem would be a top 5 Terran in Korea, what are you speaking of? Debatable because Dream is improving and looking strong so there are now actually 5 good Korean Terrans again Who are the 5 good ones? Maru, Innovation, Ty, Dream (maybe) and .... definitely not bunny or taeja haha
I'd put Cure easily on that top5 list.
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On July 13 2020 03:28 Elentos wrote:
I think something Clem needs in his play is a bit more trickery though. Terran success comes off the back of bamboozling opponents, not playing classy macro games.
agree. No world class T would play a 4 games TvZ and not throw in at least one proxy rax
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On July 13 2020 03:28 Elentos wrote:
I think something Clem needs in his play is a bit more trickery though. Terran success comes off the back of bamboozling opponents, not playing classy macro games.
I can see that, if he stays a summer in Specials house to learn from the master TY.
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On July 13 2020 03:32 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:28 Elentos wrote:
I think something Clem needs in his play is a bit more trickery though. Terran success comes off the back of bamboozling opponents, not playing classy macro games. I can see that, if he stays a summer in Specials house to learn from the master TY.
can't wait to see TY play again. Feels so long since that GSL run. It's not exactly like he's looked incredible in the last series he played, but I have no doubt we'll see top form TY in the upcoming group and then in the playoffs
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Elentos
55594 Posts
Maps that were used as winners' advantage and not played in the finals:
EU: Submarine
LatAm: Golden Wall
CN: Deathaura
TW: Pillars of Gold
Oce: Submarine
Deathaura & Ever Dream got vetoed in the Maru vs Dark Korean play-in. No idea with Trap vs Dear (but probably Submarine and Golden Wall?).
On July 13 2020 03:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2020 03:32 Lexender wrote:On July 13 2020 03:28 Elentos wrote:
I think something Clem needs in his play is a bit more trickery though. Terran success comes off the back of bamboozling opponents, not playing classy macro games. I can see that, if he stays a summer in Specials house to learn from the master TY. can't wait to see TY play again. Feels so long since that GSL run. It's not exactly like he's looked incredible in the last series he played, but I have no doubt we'll see top form TY in the upcoming group and then in the playoffs That or he'll do as many GSL champions in the past and flop in the next GSL
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EPT
