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it could have been better story wise if Bunny managed to win vs herO (he almost did but threw away the 2nd game). he was destroyed after being eliminated T_T
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On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons:
1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else.
2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL.
3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
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You need to learn to not bother responding to Poopi. It won't achieve anything.
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France12909 Posts
On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players.
So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do.
If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly.
edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa...
You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT?
As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT.
If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
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ByuN won't win GSL or probably even qual for Blizzcon, but if he did then he would have to be up there at least I guess
Very few players have won two or more starleagues outside of the WoL era where they had them every few weeks. And sOs is the only guy to win Blizzcon twice
Zest, Inno, Classic, and Maru are the only players to have won multiple starleagues from HoTS onwards. Inno being the only won with three. Although I feel like Dark, TY etc have serious potential to win more than starleague fairly soon
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On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
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France12909 Posts
On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
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On August 21 2017 00:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol. That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
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France12909 Posts
On August 21 2017 01:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 00:54 Poopi wrote:On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol. That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it. and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
Money wise, yes?
It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year).
But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
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United States1913 Posts
On August 21 2017 01:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 01:03 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2017 00:54 Poopi wrote:On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol. That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it. and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs? Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
WESG was a total joke of a tournament. TY stumbled through inferior competition before scraping by against a player who was probably better than him that weekend. If that's what TY's legacy is built on, it's a rather shoddy foundation.
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when MVP was winning nobody was good tho...
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France12909 Posts
On August 21 2017 01:30 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 01:11 Poopi wrote:On August 21 2017 01:03 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2017 00:54 Poopi wrote:On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol. That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it. and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs? Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it. WESG was a total joke of a tournament. TY stumbled through inferior competition before scraping by against a player who was probably better than him that weekend. If that's what TY's legacy is built on, it's a rather shoddy foundation.
There were top foreigners against him.
If everytime someone wins you consider their opponents inferior competition, and that when you barely beat a player that player is better than you? What does it even mean?
Should we count 1 less GSL win to all the players that won against soO, because that man just can't win a fucking GSL?
TY won WESG and IEM as well as placing decently in other tournaments, that's a good year for him.
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On August 21 2017 01:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 01:03 Charoisaur wrote:On August 21 2017 00:54 Poopi wrote:On August 21 2017 00:28 Charoisaur wrote:On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days. What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol. That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it. and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs? Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
Money has nothing to do when it comes to considering GOAT, but the qualities of the titles do. WESG has a prize pool of 5 GSLs combine but in terms of recognition, it's not even close to 1 GSL and i'm not gonna argueing that with you in case you disagree.
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On August 20 2017 23:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 09:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote:
I'm not talking about balance, wtf?
I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously?
I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling.
He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again?
Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho.
We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win) I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further. Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT. Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement. Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill. INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form). If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status. Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements. Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times. Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case. SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him. When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise. You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
From your response (and the responses of others) it seems as though you simply have different criteria for evaluating GOAT/Bonjwa than many others do (including myself). That being the case, there really isn't any point in discussing anything since we are measuring different things.
To each his own.
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EPT
